The Great Debate Season 4 Round 3

[u/That_guy_why]

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Rules

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Battle Rules

• Speed shall remain unequalized; at this level, you have to show your moxie in arguing speed succinctly if you wish to retain an edge.

• Battleground: 'They call it a mine, A MINE!' 'This isn't a mine....it's a tomb.' THE MINES OF MORIA!!! Nestled in a mountain pass underneath the Misty Mountains, The Mines of Moria are an underground labyrinthine arena. The proper fighting stage is set in the Great Hall on the western side of the Bridge of Durin. All combat will begin roughly 200 feet from the bridge, should any wary persons decide to try and take advantage of such a precarious perch….The Hall is a large spacious opening with numerous 4 foot thick concrete support pillars littering it that reach all the way up to the 50 foot tall ceiling, and all exits save for to the Bridge are barred and locked by magic. Numerous sconces and braziers of flame are upon the walls and floors, casting enough light to see decently well by (a light level of roughly 5 lux, wherein your normal parking garage has 10 lux). The Hall itself is an area of roughly 1 kilometer squared, or 1000 meters by 1000 meters for sake of this tournament. Combatants start 10 meters away from each other at the start.

Debate Rules

• Rounds will last 4 days, hopefully from Wednesday until Saturday or Sunday of each week of the tourney; no time limit, however each user MUST get in two responses or else be disqualified. If one user waits until the very last minute to force this rule to DQ their opponent without any forewarning to their opponents or the tournament supervisors, they will be removed from this tournament, no exceptions.

• Format for each round: both respondents get Intro + 1st Response, then 2nd response, then a 3rd response and closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. EACH RESPONSE MUST BE NO LONGER THAN TWO 10,000 CHARACTER REDDIT COMMENTS LONG.

• Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are determined by submission order (I.E. Your first submission vs. their first submission, and so on). Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa. First Round will be determined by coin flip.

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Current Bracket and Match Style

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Brackets Here

3v3 Team Match

Round 3 Ends March 4th, 11:59 EST

[u/doctorgecko]

Third Response

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Both of those blasts are bigger than a chimney.

I realize we've both been talking past each other a bit in this debate. See chimney actually has two definitions. It can either refer to the entire tall structure to carry smoke out of a house, or just the part of it that extends past the roof. Clearly I've been interpreting it as the first definition and you've been interpreting it as the second. And even reading through the prologue of the book I can't tell clearly which it's referring to.

Luckily it's not the only thing of hers that's out of tier

How is Daredevil even supposed to dodge a blast this big

The dragon breath isn't really creating a blast in that scene, it's just some smoke. Honestly Daredevil should definitely be able to move out of the way of it (since it's only a few feet wide at most) especially if your characters could react to it as you claim.

I thought you said that Pokémon are better at not being moved than they should be

I was referring specifically to wind, and even then I was more talking about their strength to stand against it (which is shown even with things that don't involve Pokemon attacks. Energy beams are different beast and can usually just send opponents flying back without nearly as much trouble.

That Grumpig went just a tad farther than across the street.

Not that much no. Grumpig still landed well inside the oasis which wasn't that big. And given how much more a car is likely to weigh, I feel like sending one flipping across a street is a better feat than Sliggoo's.

So if Sliggoo is out of tier, Kitana is even more out of tier.

He isn't dodging twenty miles out for a random energy attack.

Twenty miles? The dragon breath is a few feat wide at the most. It was only a few times wider than the size of a Spoink which aren't very big

And that argument doesn't completely ignore the context of what it quoted. Got it.

You kind of missed my point, though I'll admit I didn't word it as well as I could have.

If you insist that a character is wildly out of tier, but then go on to say "oh but my characters can totally take their attacks and defeat them", it kind of hurts your point a bit.

Okay, so Kitana, with a three times boost to everything, is able to do stuff comparable to high level Daredevil. I don't really see a problem here.

No, Kitana with a three times boost was capable of crushing an opponent that could tank the high level stuff Daredevil is capable of. So Kitana at three times is much stronger than Daredevil.

had turned is past tense. Sounds pretty much like it was before.

Okay even if that's not bullet timing, that's still bullet deflection which is about the level of speed Daredevil is at (near as I can tell he's not a bullet timer, but his radar since helps him make up for it). So it's still a speed feat within his range.

She struggled to lift a girl and herself while she was injured. She can keep jumping and cushioning their descent so that they don't get found.

Okay but there's a pretty big difference between repeatedly jumping around and flying. Especially when a big part of your argument being Tauros being a grounded fighter. If Valkyrie is just jumping there's going to be several points where she's touching the ground and Tauros can easily hit her.

Having solid shadows in front of you is pretty useful for stealth when the battlefield is really dark.

That's not invisibility though

That looks like it's hearing them. Valkyrie wouldn't be rustling leaves though.

Unless Valkyrie's movement and magic is completely and totally silent, she's going to be making some sound that the Pokemon can hear.

What kind of context is there for this?

Not much more than what you see there. Meleotta is capable of turning herself invisible, but the Pokemon were much more capable of noticing when she was around than the trainers were.

How durable was that arm? Bullets would still be able to penetrate steel so Bayleef will still have to put in more effort than she would most things.

No clear durability feats for that arm, other than it presumably being made out of metal.

If you want Bayleef cutting through something durable literally her first feat is slicing through a metal cage that Chikorita couldn't even scratch. Keep in mind Chikorita could slice clean through trees and weakened metal.

That jump doesn't look especially high compared to Valkyrie's jumps.

All right fair enough.

But keep in mind this is a team fight. Even if Tauros couldn't reach the opponent normally, Bayleef could use her vines to tie them down and allow Tauros the opportunity to strike.

It takes a lot of force for the rubble to turn to dust instead of just turning around. It would need at least as much force as the shadows anyway.

Not necessarily. If the shadows are strong enough to destroy rubble then they could do it regardless of how fast its coming at them. And while it's not clear, you can't automatically assume that the rubble was moving that fast

The RT says he's ~195 lbs, and Brock with his ton statement could very easily be just hyperbole. WoG in universe trumps character statements.

I... honestly don't know why I keep including the Pokedex weights in the respect thread, other than that it's become habit and typically its the only information we have.

But the thing is, the 195 lb thing is never stated in the anime. Rather its information given by the Pokedex in the games, which is a separate continuity from the anime. Not to mention how the Pokedex can be a bit controversial with some of its entries, height and weight included. Or the times the anime has ignored Pokemon weights in regards to just how heavy some can be

So yeah: possibly hyperbolic statement from a fairly knowledgeable character in universe vs a Pokedex entry from a different continuity. That's why I said it's debatable.

That's more of a strength feat of being able to stand there with that wind pushing down

That's exactly what I was trying to say it was. Pokemon are strong enough to stand against gusts of wind despite their weight.

What kind of strength does that tornado have?

Pidove's gust could stop Meowth's fury swipes in his tracks which could cut into rock

She can, however, throw a few fireballs to wear Bayleef down.

And when her best and only combat relevant feat is frying a hard drive, it would take a lot of fire for her to wear Bayleef down. Especially when unevolved fire types in the anime can do stuff like this, this, this, or this. And you never mentioned how she'd even know Bayleef was weak to fire, especially when it doesn't actually look like something she really uses in combat often (given that there are a grand total of four fire feats in the respect thread).

actually wasn't planning on asking that. I was, instead, planning to mention that Valkyrie has literally summoned fire in heavy rain and can also keep the rain off herself.

The only thing that first feat tells us is that she was able to hold a flame in her hand while it was raining. It tells us nothing of it would still be at all effective after leaving her hand. And I didn't say the rain would prevent her fire from working, I just said it would lessen the effect. Also is she even able to use two elements at once?

The speed boost increases her reactions to the level of the Black Cleaver, who was pretty comparable to Daredevil. If China can't react to it then Daredevil probably can't either.

Scans? Because just saying he's comparable to Daredevil doesn't really prove anything. I also find it a bit questionable when you repeatedly claim that Kitana reacting to bullets is a massive outlier.

Also if Bayleef grabs China before she can speed herself up she'd be kind of screwed.

It has a feat of resisting necromancy, which, as we saw earlier in this debate, can potentially kill people in one hit and can also easily drag around furniture.

So... uh... much weaker than Bayleef then

I meant like turning if someone went to the side when he was mid-charge. None of those feats involve that.

I mean those feats involve him reacting to some pretty fast attacks while charging forwards, and yes that includes the second one. So yeah he could probably react to that.

They didn't say anything about it when I said it during tribunal.

I question if they were actually okay or they just forgot about it. It's possible for things to slip through.

Also in regards to my characters being out of tier, my team was put together by throwing a bunch of Pokemon respect threads at Chainsaw until he said "okay, they're weak enough to be in tier"

[u/doctorgecko → u/doctorgecko]

/u/JunDoRahhe - Continued

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Maybe because China needs someone's name to do it. Not many people will just freely give China their names. And also the fact that it wouldn't work on Daredevil because Daredevil would definitely count as a Taken Name, which works as a seal against your Given Name being used against you.

It's still a broken ability that allows her to 10/10 several characters with no counter. The fact that it's technically in tier because it doesn't work on Daredevil doesn't change that.

Is it or is it not what every human in the series calls them? By definition, since your Pokémon didn't make up their names, it would be their given name.

Doesn't every character in the series refer to Valkyrie as Valkyrie and China as China? I mean that's the name Ash calls them by, but who knows if Pokemon give each other different names or not?

Also have we ever seen the power of names work on someone that wasn't human or humanoid?

It's pretty reasonable to say that, seeing as how that's what they're saying, she might try it just to see if it works.

No, it's really not

The reason you think it's obvious is that you are already aware that that's what they're doing. Your character does not have information to such out of universe information. Pokemon saying there names is considered one of the more ridiculous and unbelievable aspects of the Pokemon anime. Why would she immediately assume that's what they're doing? This leads into my next point.

Even when Pokemon talk, they don't have to say their full name. Bayleef is just as likely to say "Bay bay" as "Bayleef", probably more so. And I don't really recall Sliggoo ever saying his full name at once. So this plan relies on the Pokemon...

1. Saying their full name right at the start of the battle

2. China immediately realizing that that's what they're doing

3. The power actually working on the Pokemon

How durable are Team Rockettm hot air balloons? That looks like she'd be fast enough to catch China if Valkyrie and Kitana weren't busy distracting her. It's pretty basic fighting strategy to fight the people that aren't running because they're generally easier to get into a fight with.

I... legitimately have no idea what that last statement is trying to say. But my team also has two other fighters, so it's not like it'd be one against three.

Also Bayleef can also make really good jumps in addition to her running speed.

The second feat is a lot stronger, but Tauros outrunning that almost certainly puts him too fast for Daredevil to deal with.

I'd like to point out that Ash was also submitted to this tournament, and there was argument about if he was under tier in large part due to him being too slow, even with that feat.

I don't think he's really expecting the ground to disappear out from under him while he crosses a bridge. And also, the bridge looks barely big enough for him to run across normally. If he uses double team to get out of the trap then he won't be on the bridge anymore.

Double team doesn't have to put all of the doubles in a straight line

Also that assumes that Tauros would follow her onto the bridge. Because if she goes on to the bridge that's potentially opening herself up to a near unavoidable fissure

Erm, that [doesn't even happen in the scan]

Yes it does

"Vengeous reached for her but hit something, an invisible wall. He tried to back off, but he only got a couple of steps before he hit another barrier. He looked down, looked at the elaborate carpet, and saw the circle hidden in the design."

Is there any source for this? They don't look like that to me, but I could be wrong.

Mostly that's my assumption, but its one made after watching a lot of the anime. Namely, in the near thousand episodes I've seen... I don't recall a single instance where vine whip is cut. And it's not like Pokemon can't cut through other grass type attacks, but vine whip is treated like a pair of limbs for all involved. I mean you'd think that if Bayleef was in a situation like this cutting her vines would be a go to solution if they were disposable.

Not to mention the fact that Bayleef treats them like prehensile arms and not just things growing on her to be disposed of.

I thought you were using Bayleef in general, sorry.

My team is called Ash's Middle of the Road, both the description I gave her and the respect thread I'm using are specifically referring to Ash's Bayleef, and I've been referring to her as female this entire time.

Why would you think that?

That still doesn't cover the shadow bit.

What part of it? Bayleef could sense her location, and given that her razor leaf can cut through metal I think she can get through the shadows if they're physical like you claim.

I meant that she could just send them flying miles away if they try to get close.

I really don't think she has the feats for being able to do that, when basically all of my team member have better strength feats than what I've seen of anyone she's used her wind powers on. I feel like they'd slow the Pokemon down at best.

Valkyrie could hit him with a stun baton and just throw him off the bridge.

Goomy wasn't at all harmed being shocked by Dedenne who despite being one of the weakest electric Pokemon in the anime could still blast apart solid rock with his electricity.

A stun baton designed to knock out a normal human isn't going to do anything

Also since Valkyrie is more or less a glass cannon mage, getting in melee range of any of the Pokemon is just about the stupidest move she could make in this fight.

[u/JunDoRahhe → u/doctorgecko]

Response 3: Part 1

It can either refer to the entire tall structure to carry smoke out of a house, or just the part of it that extends past the roof. Clearly I've been interpreting it as the first definition and you've been interpreting it as the second

So that's why I didn't understand your arguments.

even reading through the prologue of the book I can't tell clearly which it's referring to

Well, when Doran blasted the chimney he just put a hole in it, so I'd say it was the small part.

The dragon breath isn't really creating a blast in that scene, it's just some smoke

Blue smoke?

Honestly Daredevil should definitely be able to move out of the way of it (since it's only a few feet wide at most)

He would be able to if he was expecting something that big, but Sliggoo is tiny, and I doubt Daredevil would be expecting a blast that big from him.

even with things that don't involve Pokemon attacks

The big Pokémon in that scan (I don't even know what they were) were barely able to move themselves and that wind could barely move a person. Valkyrie's wind is a hell of a lot stronger than that. I feel like Valkyrie can move the Pokémon if she pushes them.

Energy beams are different beast and can usually just send opponents flying back without nearly as much trouble

It's still pretty far. He was sent a few times over the height of the trees, which would probably be more energy in the hit than what it takes to flip a car, which wouldn't need the same force as throwing a car, might I add, it's a lot easier to knock over/flip something than to actually lift it, which is in turn easier than throwing it.

Twenty miles? The dragon breath is a few feat wide at the most

Hyperbole

It was only a few times wider than the size of a Spoink which aren't very big

You see a tiny creature looking like it's about to blast something. Do you dodge a distance close to the size of the creature or do you dodge a few times the size of the creature?

If you insist that a character is wildly out of tier, but then go on to say "oh but my characters can totally take their attacks and defeat them", it kind of hurts your point a bit

It's more of a rock-paper-scissors scenario though. I don't think wildly specific counters that the tier doesn't have really hurt your argument.

No, Kitana with a three times boost was capable of crushing an opponent that could tank the high level stuff Daredevil is capable of. So Kitana at three times is much stronger than Daredevil

Then Kitana has more than a third of Daredevil's strength. I think Daredevil could deal with someone with over a third of his strength.

that's still bullet deflection which is about the level of speed Daredevil is at

It's not as impressive as what Daredevil can do. Daredevil has a pretty significant speed advantage, and he can use that, combined with his superior skill, to beat Kitana pretty easily.

If Valkyrie is just jumping there's going to be several points where she's touching the ground and Tauros can easily hit her

Skulduggery, the guy who taught her elemental magic, was able to make a soundproof bubble so, while Valkyrie isn't as good as Skulduggery, Valkyrie could still muffle the sounds they make while landing. Combine that with her very quiet footsteps, her shadow shroud, and cushioning their descent. Tauros isn't noticing that they've landed, since he can't actually find them.

That's not invisibility though

It's effectively invisibility for the purposes of the fight though.

Unless Valkyrie's movement and magic is completely and totally silent, she's going to be making some sound that the Pokemon can hear

I mentioned the soundproofing earlier.

If you want Bayleef cutting through something durable literally her first feat is slicing through a metal cage that Chikorita couldn't even scratch

Okay, that's pretty good. I think Valkyrie could replicate the chain feat pretty easily, and her clothing has survived stronger necromancy than her own before, so she should be fine with that still.

weakened metal

Is Ash trying to steal a tire iron?

Even if Tauros couldn't reach the opponent normally, Bayleef could use her vines to tie them down and allow Tauros the opportunity to strike

Not if Valkyrie puts up a barrier with her shadows. Bear in mind that Valkyrie had to focus to stop that mist from becoming solid.

Not necessarily. If the shadows are strong enough to destroy rubble then they could do it regardless of how fast its coming at them. And while it's not clear, you can't automatically assume that the rubble was moving that fast

Okay, fair enough, we can't assume.

So yeah: possibly hyperbolic statement from a fairly knowledgeable character in universe vs a Pokedex entry from a different continuity. That's why I said it's debatable

Pretty hard to come up with anything to say to this one. I'll leave it up to the judges to decide which is a better source.

I... legitimately have no idea what that last statement is trying to say.

If you have to fight multiple people and one of them is running away then it's smarter to fight whoever isn't running so that you don't spend your energy running after someone, and the other person loses their energy by running away.

That's exactly what I was trying to say it was. Pokemon are strong enough to stand against gusts of wind despite their weight

Yeah but that wind wasn't actually pushing them away, just downwards. It's more of a leg strength feat to be able to stand in it, which wouldn't apply when there's nothing to stand against where they're being pushed to.

Pidove's gust could stop Meowth's fury swipes in his tracks which could cut into rock

That's more of a piercing thing than a strength thing though, and I can't find a respect thread for Meowth so I don't know if he has any blunt strength feats.

there are a grand total of four fire feats

MightyBox said earlier in the tourney about his Skulduggery thread that he didn't want loads of repetitive stuff for his air, which is pretty much the same reason for this.

It tells us nothing of it would still be at all effective after leaving her hand

Pretty pointless for her to just summon fire if it would just fall apart straight away. Anyway, the fire is still magic fire after it gets thrown, considering the fact that the beasts in Gordon's caves are still immune to it and they're really just animals that are immune to magic.

is she even able to use two elements at once?

As long as it's fire and air, since she can use them pretty effortlessly.

Scans? Because just saying he's comparable to Daredevil doesn't really prove anything

He was able to keep up with a group of Cleavers pretty well, and also, with a scythe blade lodged inside him, managed to snap two more necks.

So... uh... much weaker than Bayleef then

Valkyrie's necromancy is anyway. Vengeous was wearing Lord Vile's armour, meaning he was using Lord Vile's necromancy, which is pretty strong.

I mean those feats involve him reacting to some pretty fast attacks while charging forwards, and yes that includes the second one. So yeah he could probably react to that

I'm talking about a different thing here though. I was asking if he had any feats for any kind of turning circle or something.

all of my team member have better strength feats than what I've seen of anyone she's used her wind powers on

But strength doesn't matter when there's nothing for you to push against with it. How would they push against it?

Goomy wasn't at all harmed being shocked by Dedenne who despite being one of the weakest electric Pokemon in the anime could still blast apart solid rock with his electricity

But that second feat wouldn't be relevant for electrical resistance. That's applying blunt force with lightning, which is completely unquantifiable.

since Valkyrie is more or less a glass cannon mage

I can see where you're coming from but no.

getting in melee range of any of the Pokemon is just about the stupidest move she could make in this fight

I was thinking more against Bayleef's vines, which is definitely the kind of thing she'd do. But yeah, melee range is a bad idea unless absolutely forced to with no other options.

[u/FatFingerHelperBot → u/JunDoRahhe]

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