r/whowouldwin • u/Verlux ​ • Mar 09 '18

Special The Great Debate Season 4 Round 4

Rules

Battle Rules

  • Speed shall remain unequalized; at this level, you have to show your moxie in arguing speed succinctly if you wish to retain an edge.

  • Battleground: 'They call it a mine, A MINE!' 'This isn't a mine....it's a tomb.' THE MINES OF MORIA!!! Nestled in a mountain pass underneath the Misty Mountains, The Mines of Moria are an underground labyrinthine arena. The proper fighting stage is set in the Great Hall on the western side of the Bridge of Durin. All combat will begin roughly 200 feet from the bridge, should any wary persons decide to try and take advantage of such a precarious perch….The Hall is a large spacious opening with numerous 4 foot thick concrete support pillars littering it that reach all the way up to the 50 foot tall ceiling, and all exits save for to the Bridge are barred and locked by magic. Numerous sconces and braziers of flame are upon the walls and floors, casting enough light to see decently well by (a light level of roughly 5 lux, wherein your normal parking garage has 10 lux). The Hall itself is an area of roughly 1 kilometer squared, or 1000 meters by 1000 meters for sake of this tournament. Combatants start 10 meters away from each other at the start.

Debate Rules

  • Rounds will last 4 days, hopefully from Wednesday until Saturday or Sunday of each week of the tourney; no time limit, however each user MUST get in two responses or else be disqualified. If one user waits until the very last minute to force this rule to DQ their opponent without any forewarning to their opponents or the tournament supervisors, they will be removed from this tournament, no exceptions.

  • Format for each round: both respondents get Intro + 1st Response, then 2nd response, then a 3rd response and closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. EACH RESPONSE MUST BE NO LONGER THAN TWO 10,000 CHARACTER REDDIT COMMENTS LONG.

  • Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are determined by submission order (I.E. Your first submission vs. their first submission, and so on). Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa. First Round will be determined by coin flip.

Current Bracket and Match Style

Brackets Here

1v1 Individual Matches

Round 3 Ends March 12th, 11:59 EST

9 Upvotes

92% Upvoted

72 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

1

u/Joseph_Stalin_ ​ Mar 09 '18

Team Daddy Issues

Lady:

  • A young girl who's terrible past, led her to becoming a Demon Hunter. Essentially self-trained, she's armed to the teeth and very experienced in combat.

Cassandra Cain/Orphan:

  • The daughter of two of the world's most deadliest assassins. She was raised to be a human weapon, learning how to read body language over actual verbal language thus being able to read her opponent's next moves. She eventually escaped her father and joined with Batman, attempting to atone for her crimes.

Chimchar:

  • He's a fire Pokemon who had a rude owner and was abandoned for not getting strong. Charmander Chimchar was then taken in by Ash and was treated pretty swell

In a shocking turn of events, Letter is the one that actually concedes.

1

u/Joseph_Stalin_ ​ Mar 10 '18

/u/LetterSequence

First Point

Lady Vs. Deku

Deku's speed is an odd thing. While he has some swell movement speed, his only good reaction feat is dodging projectiles of unknown speed. He also has a bad tendency of being too linear and he does too big of a wind-up for his attacks. Lady may not be able to fight Deku in fisticuffs, but that's not her main style of combat. She will open up with her guns, and Deku has no speed beyond possibly aim-dodging to counter it. Considering her ability to shoot a bullet out of the air, Deku's attempts to blitz Lady will fail.
If, by some chance Deku gets close, Lady is more than durable to take a few hits. She's be able to go H2H with a woman who can bust a ceiling of a Church. While she won't beat him that way, she still has a fuck-ton of weapons to use and grenades

Cassandra Cain Vs. Clover

Both characters seem to be equally strong, with them both destroying bots with their strikes, and about equally as fast with some laser dodging and gunfire avoiding feats. However, while Clover has taken strikes and survived from powerful enemies, she, along with the other spies, are horribly weak to people with exceptional skill. Even against a girl who's just a snobby highschool girl that doesn't have impressive feats prior, is given 5yrs of experience and solos all 3 spies. Cassandra Cain has trained all her life and has defeated/stalemated opponents stronger and faster than through skill and her ability to read opponents.
A lot of the gadgets she has are either non-combat orientated or never used in combat in H2H. Only a select few are viable

  • Grappling Hook is for movement, and has no real good place to latch on to in the location

  • Suction Boots, while useful, was only used for stealth

  • Upwhatti is useless

  • Hair Dryer Blaster is useful, if she'd use a weapon that can knock back a Helicopter on a person in character.

  • Evapo-Blaster is really only used for water/snow, only making people dry when used directly on them. Not burning or anything actual harmful

  • Her 2 Laser weapons are only used to escape, and haven't been shown to melt/cut through stone as thick as the one in the Mines

  • Infusion Exploders, most likely only being used on the pillars not Cass herself.

  • Jetpack Backpacks does give great maneuverability, but she wouldn't have a use/need for it unless Cass goes into the air.

  • Nylon-Vests maybe can be useful against punches, if used as a shield, but'll restrict her movement a lot.

  • Contacts Lenses specifically look through metal, with stone covering it is useless.

  • Is another useful close quarters gadget, however it is only usable 3 times.

  • Sleeping Dart is useful, if Cass is caught of guard. She'll most likely avoid such a weapon

  • Tornado in a Can would only momentarily stop Cass if she's caught, all the can does is spin a target around and then stop. Clover must also distance herself against an opponent who'll continuously press forward

  • Ninja Nails were once again only used for escape and could be avoided in combat

  • Titanium Heels are useful for getting underground, not combat

  • Anti-Grav is most useful if she can get an opening on Cass and slip it in. Cass is far more skilled than Clover and won't let that happen

  • Black-Belt is an item that I don't think Clover can use herself. Jerry specifically says it ties two or more people together, and it hasn't been shown to work on only one wearer. So Clover would have to tie the belt on Cass to essentially even the odds, but Cass could just take it off.

  • Molecular Spray is useful for passing through the columns possibly, but Jerry states to not use it on one's self. Presumably lethal, so using it on a person is out of the question.

Chimchar Vs. Lemillion

Phasing is Lemillions biggest asset against Chimchar, but even with being able to avoid most attacks. I don't believe Lemillion has the strength to defeat Chimchar. His ability to KO students seem to rely on hitting them at the Solar Plexus/Weak point, and most of the student he defeated don't have durability feats beyond this very sequence. Only Deku has good durability feats against strikes, is getting hit 3 times by Muscular. Even then Chimchar has superior feats to that and was unscathed unlike Deku. Lemillion's only other strength feats is kicking away a full grown man, the rest is KOing people with no other durability feats beyond "recuperates a bit after a strike from Lemillion."
Chimchar using Flame Wheel is a shield Lemillion cannot overcome, as he tends to not strike organs even when serious.. These mooks required multiple hits to be taken out by Mirio, and he was serious as well.

Mirio on the other hand, has no durability feats beyond being able to barely stand when stabbed. So any of Chimchar's flame attacks and just physical attacks could KO Lemillion.

1

u/LetterSequence ​ Mar 12 '18

Deku vs Lady

I will contend that, if Deku came at Lady in a straight line at 8% speeds, she could probably shoot him out of the air. However, Deku's shoot style of bouncing off of walls rapidly to appear as a blur is going to make it nearly impossible for Lady to get a shot off on Deku. She'd have to actually aim the gun at him, though I can't say how well Deku can handle someone with a gun since no bullet timing feats.

What I will say is that while Lady is durable and strong, and she has weapons to aid her in battle, she is much slower than Deku. All of her best speed feats involve shooting projectiles out of the air with other projectiles. Blocking a gunshot with her rocket launcher, which isn't that impressive, shooting bullets out of the air, which is a projectile vs projectile attack, and her dodging scythe swings from demons. I'm assuming the demons have no impressive feats whatsoever since there's no sense of scaling in the RT. Plus, the fist fight gif you showed had them fighting at normal human speeds. If Deku closes the gap, I have no doubts he should easily be able to blitz her.

Her roof tanking durability is suspicious for the tier, but if Deku speedblitzes her, he'll be able to overcome that with his casual wall busting attacks. One hit obviously won't do the trick, but if he's jumping around her at 5% speeds (which is fast enough to graze Gran Torino, a hero who moves at FTE speeds), she won't be able to land a hit on him while he can bounce around landing as many hits as he needs until he wins the fight.

As another quick note, the rocket launcher won't be of too much help here. Once Deku gets in close, it'll only be a suicide attack, and if she tries to use it to destroy the terrain around him, he's prepared to handle any falling debris.

Last note, by moderating the /r/BokuNoHeroAcademia subreddit, you're admitting Deku is better than DMC so he would easily win this fight.

Clover vs Cain

I don't think the skill advantage that Cain holds is that significant. For one, Clover has superior attacking speed to Cain, plus that feat is also stronger than most of her feats in the RT I found. Secondly, the reason the spies have anti-feats is a folly of the shows formula. In every episode, they meet the enemy of the week, lose horribly to them, then regroup and use their gadgets to save the day against the enemy that just stomped them into the ground like they're the biggest jobbers in the world. The spies actually have skill feats, like when Alex took out two people while trapped in water, or when Clover beat a horde of brainwashed children by herself while talking to her mom on the phone, or when Sam knocked out an olympic level boxer. All three girls went through the same training program, so they should be equally skilled. Cain obviously has more skill because she's a batwoman, but the skill gap is not as wide as you think.

Cain seemingly has no gadgets (unless I'm looking at the wrong RT). Smoke bombs can easily be countered by the tornado in a can to remove all the smoke. Her katana tanking armor is nice but Clover is a hand to hand fighter. Therefore, the deciding factor in a match where both fighters have similar stats and a level of skill that doesn't make the match a meme is the gadgets, which you seem to have a few misconceptions on.

  • The Hair Dryer has been used on people before in the show, mostly to stagger people and knock them onto the ground. If hit with this attack, Clover will have a chance to move in and get some solid hits in.

  • The Evapo-Blaster has been used on people before and it completely dehydrated them. While it doesn't kill the target, if Cain gets hit by this, she'll be completely crippled the entire fight.

  • The Jetpacks are useful regardless of if Cassandra is in the air or not. An aerial mobility advantage is helpful at any stage of the fight, and considering Cain doesn't seem to have batarangs of any kind to knock her back down. There's nothing stopping Clover from taking to the skies and pelting her with attacks from her hair blaster until she wins.

  • Just because Ninja Nails were used to escape doesn't mean Clover won't use them on an opponent. They'd be strong enough to stagger and potentially knock out Cain if enough of them hit, there's no reason for her to not use them.

  • You've seemingly ignored the ice spray which would completely incap Cain if it lands on her. Unless it was the "can only be used three times" gadget you didn't name, in which case the gif only portays that because of when I took the feat. The bottle was used multiple times before that, and if the bottle was full (which it should be), she'd have way more than three uses.

  • Anti-Gravity could potentially take Cain out of the fight completely if Clover manages to snag it on. Once she's floating in the air, she won't be able to defend herself from Clover.

  • The Black Belt is a fair point that I didn't consider, since its main intention was to be used in 3v3 fights. However, I feel like you're over stating Cain's skill advantage and simply saying "Cain outskills Clover can't possibly do that" for any situation where Clover has a chance of winning. If Cain is really as skilled as you're saying, what's stopping Clover from using Cain's skill to stop her from taking the belt off once she puts it on? They'd be evenly skilled and Clover is faster and slightly stronger, so the fight would be over near instantly.

  • If you assume Clover wouldn't kill anyone/use the molecular spray on Cain, you clearly missed out on a feat or two from the respect thread.

At the end of the day, the skill gap is not as immense as you make it out to be, Clover has an advantage in combat speed and strength, and even if all of her gadgets aren't useful, she has way more than Cain does and can use them to easily take her out.

Mirio vs Chimchar

I'm not saying Mirio would punch a monkey in the face...

For one, you're underselling how strong Muscular was to hurt Deku. He was literally shrugging off 100% punches and cracking the mountain behind him when he punched Deku into it. That feat you posted for Chimchar is nowhere near that calibur. Hell, Bakugou's explosions look more harmful than that, and Deku takes those quite often.

Regardless, the whole point of Mirio is that he can bypass durability and phase through attacks that he can see. Chimchar may not have human biology, but he has organs. He has a brain, a stomach, and everything else you'd expect an animal to have. He can still poke Chimchar in the eye to blind it to set up for a shot to the gut, which would still hurt him regardless since no other Pokemon can attack organs, so he has no resistances for it.

The mooks Mirio fought required multiple hits, but he landed those hits in rapid succession so he should be able to get them all off on Chimchar. You also say Mirio doesn't attack organs when serious... but he literally attacked organs in his first showing. There's no reason for him to not do it.

The main question now becomes, can Mirio overcome Chimchar's Flame Wheel? Well, I'm going to propose a different question. How long can Chimchar keep up his fire? If Mirio can't attack Chimchar, his best method of attack is simply to wait it out. By popping into the ground and popping back out for air every once in a while, Mirio can effectively stall him out until the flames run out, in which case clean hits can be landed.

Chimchar's flame seems to burn out once he collides with something, so if he baits Chimchar into charging into a wall and pops out behind him while he's landing on the floor (not covered in flames), this is his opportune moment to win. At this point, it becomes an extremely drawn out match, but one heavily in Mirio's favor.