r/whowouldwin • u/Verlux ​ • Mar 09 '18

Special The Great Debate Season 4 Round 4

Rules

Battle Rules

  • Speed shall remain unequalized; at this level, you have to show your moxie in arguing speed succinctly if you wish to retain an edge.

  • Battleground: 'They call it a mine, A MINE!' 'This isn't a mine....it's a tomb.' THE MINES OF MORIA!!! Nestled in a mountain pass underneath the Misty Mountains, The Mines of Moria are an underground labyrinthine arena. The proper fighting stage is set in the Great Hall on the western side of the Bridge of Durin. All combat will begin roughly 200 feet from the bridge, should any wary persons decide to try and take advantage of such a precarious perch….The Hall is a large spacious opening with numerous 4 foot thick concrete support pillars littering it that reach all the way up to the 50 foot tall ceiling, and all exits save for to the Bridge are barred and locked by magic. Numerous sconces and braziers of flame are upon the walls and floors, casting enough light to see decently well by (a light level of roughly 5 lux, wherein your normal parking garage has 10 lux). The Hall itself is an area of roughly 1 kilometer squared, or 1000 meters by 1000 meters for sake of this tournament. Combatants start 10 meters away from each other at the start.

Debate Rules

  • Rounds will last 4 days, hopefully from Wednesday until Saturday or Sunday of each week of the tourney; no time limit, however each user MUST get in two responses or else be disqualified. If one user waits until the very last minute to force this rule to DQ their opponent without any forewarning to their opponents or the tournament supervisors, they will be removed from this tournament, no exceptions.

  • Format for each round: both respondents get Intro + 1st Response, then 2nd response, then a 3rd response and closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. EACH RESPONSE MUST BE NO LONGER THAN TWO 10,000 CHARACTER REDDIT COMMENTS LONG.

  • Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are determined by submission order (I.E. Your first submission vs. their first submission, and so on). Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa. First Round will be determined by coin flip.

Current Bracket and Match Style

Brackets Here

1v1 Individual Matches

Round 3 Ends March 12th, 11:59 EST

9 Upvotes

92% Upvoted

72 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

1

u/Joseph_Stalin_ ​ Mar 10 '18

/u/LetterSequence

First Point

Lady Vs. Deku

Deku's speed is an odd thing. While he has some swell movement speed, his only good reaction feat is dodging projectiles of unknown speed. He also has a bad tendency of being too linear and he does too big of a wind-up for his attacks. Lady may not be able to fight Deku in fisticuffs, but that's not her main style of combat. She will open up with her guns, and Deku has no speed beyond possibly aim-dodging to counter it. Considering her ability to shoot a bullet out of the air, Deku's attempts to blitz Lady will fail.
If, by some chance Deku gets close, Lady is more than durable to take a few hits. She's be able to go H2H with a woman who can bust a ceiling of a Church. While she won't beat him that way, she still has a fuck-ton of weapons to use and grenades

Cassandra Cain Vs. Clover

Both characters seem to be equally strong, with them both destroying bots with their strikes, and about equally as fast with some laser dodging and gunfire avoiding feats. However, while Clover has taken strikes and survived from powerful enemies, she, along with the other spies, are horribly weak to people with exceptional skill. Even against a girl who's just a snobby highschool girl that doesn't have impressive feats prior, is given 5yrs of experience and solos all 3 spies. Cassandra Cain has trained all her life and has defeated/stalemated opponents stronger and faster than through skill and her ability to read opponents.
A lot of the gadgets she has are either non-combat orientated or never used in combat in H2H. Only a select few are viable

  • Grappling Hook is for movement, and has no real good place to latch on to in the location

  • Suction Boots, while useful, was only used for stealth

  • Upwhatti is useless

  • Hair Dryer Blaster is useful, if she'd use a weapon that can knock back a Helicopter on a person in character.

  • Evapo-Blaster is really only used for water/snow, only making people dry when used directly on them. Not burning or anything actual harmful

  • Her 2 Laser weapons are only used to escape, and haven't been shown to melt/cut through stone as thick as the one in the Mines

  • Infusion Exploders, most likely only being used on the pillars not Cass herself.

  • Jetpack Backpacks does give great maneuverability, but she wouldn't have a use/need for it unless Cass goes into the air.

  • Nylon-Vests maybe can be useful against punches, if used as a shield, but'll restrict her movement a lot.

  • Contacts Lenses specifically look through metal, with stone covering it is useless.

  • Is another useful close quarters gadget, however it is only usable 3 times.

  • Sleeping Dart is useful, if Cass is caught of guard. She'll most likely avoid such a weapon

  • Tornado in a Can would only momentarily stop Cass if she's caught, all the can does is spin a target around and then stop. Clover must also distance herself against an opponent who'll continuously press forward

  • Ninja Nails were once again only used for escape and could be avoided in combat

  • Titanium Heels are useful for getting underground, not combat

  • Anti-Grav is most useful if she can get an opening on Cass and slip it in. Cass is far more skilled than Clover and won't let that happen

  • Black-Belt is an item that I don't think Clover can use herself. Jerry specifically says it ties two or more people together, and it hasn't been shown to work on only one wearer. So Clover would have to tie the belt on Cass to essentially even the odds, but Cass could just take it off.

  • Molecular Spray is useful for passing through the columns possibly, but Jerry states to not use it on one's self. Presumably lethal, so using it on a person is out of the question.

Chimchar Vs. Lemillion

Phasing is Lemillions biggest asset against Chimchar, but even with being able to avoid most attacks. I don't believe Lemillion has the strength to defeat Chimchar. His ability to KO students seem to rely on hitting them at the Solar Plexus/Weak point, and most of the student he defeated don't have durability feats beyond this very sequence. Only Deku has good durability feats against strikes, is getting hit 3 times by Muscular. Even then Chimchar has superior feats to that and was unscathed unlike Deku. Lemillion's only other strength feats is kicking away a full grown man, the rest is KOing people with no other durability feats beyond "recuperates a bit after a strike from Lemillion."
Chimchar using Flame Wheel is a shield Lemillion cannot overcome, as he tends to not strike organs even when serious.. These mooks required multiple hits to be taken out by Mirio, and he was serious as well.

Mirio on the other hand, has no durability feats beyond being able to barely stand when stabbed. So any of Chimchar's flame attacks and just physical attacks could KO Lemillion.

1

u/LetterSequence ​ Mar 12 '18

Deku vs Lady

I will contend that, if Deku came at Lady in a straight line at 8% speeds, she could probably shoot him out of the air. However, Deku's shoot style of bouncing off of walls rapidly to appear as a blur is going to make it nearly impossible for Lady to get a shot off on Deku. She'd have to actually aim the gun at him, though I can't say how well Deku can handle someone with a gun since no bullet timing feats.

What I will say is that while Lady is durable and strong, and she has weapons to aid her in battle, she is much slower than Deku. All of her best speed feats involve shooting projectiles out of the air with other projectiles. Blocking a gunshot with her rocket launcher, which isn't that impressive, shooting bullets out of the air, which is a projectile vs projectile attack, and her dodging scythe swings from demons. I'm assuming the demons have no impressive feats whatsoever since there's no sense of scaling in the RT. Plus, the fist fight gif you showed had them fighting at normal human speeds. If Deku closes the gap, I have no doubts he should easily be able to blitz her.

Her roof tanking durability is suspicious for the tier, but if Deku speedblitzes her, he'll be able to overcome that with his casual wall busting attacks. One hit obviously won't do the trick, but if he's jumping around her at 5% speeds (which is fast enough to graze Gran Torino, a hero who moves at FTE speeds), she won't be able to land a hit on him while he can bounce around landing as many hits as he needs until he wins the fight.

As another quick note, the rocket launcher won't be of too much help here. Once Deku gets in close, it'll only be a suicide attack, and if she tries to use it to destroy the terrain around him, he's prepared to handle any falling debris.

Last note, by moderating the /r/BokuNoHeroAcademia subreddit, you're admitting Deku is better than DMC so he would easily win this fight.

Clover vs Cain

I don't think the skill advantage that Cain holds is that significant. For one, Clover has superior attacking speed to Cain, plus that feat is also stronger than most of her feats in the RT I found. Secondly, the reason the spies have anti-feats is a folly of the shows formula. In every episode, they meet the enemy of the week, lose horribly to them, then regroup and use their gadgets to save the day against the enemy that just stomped them into the ground like they're the biggest jobbers in the world. The spies actually have skill feats, like when Alex took out two people while trapped in water, or when Clover beat a horde of brainwashed children by herself while talking to her mom on the phone, or when Sam knocked out an olympic level boxer. All three girls went through the same training program, so they should be equally skilled. Cain obviously has more skill because she's a batwoman, but the skill gap is not as wide as you think.

Cain seemingly has no gadgets (unless I'm looking at the wrong RT). Smoke bombs can easily be countered by the tornado in a can to remove all the smoke. Her katana tanking armor is nice but Clover is a hand to hand fighter. Therefore, the deciding factor in a match where both fighters have similar stats and a level of skill that doesn't make the match a meme is the gadgets, which you seem to have a few misconceptions on.

  • The Hair Dryer has been used on people before in the show, mostly to stagger people and knock them onto the ground. If hit with this attack, Clover will have a chance to move in and get some solid hits in.

  • The Evapo-Blaster has been used on people before and it completely dehydrated them. While it doesn't kill the target, if Cain gets hit by this, she'll be completely crippled the entire fight.

  • The Jetpacks are useful regardless of if Cassandra is in the air or not. An aerial mobility advantage is helpful at any stage of the fight, and considering Cain doesn't seem to have batarangs of any kind to knock her back down. There's nothing stopping Clover from taking to the skies and pelting her with attacks from her hair blaster until she wins.

  • Just because Ninja Nails were used to escape doesn't mean Clover won't use them on an opponent. They'd be strong enough to stagger and potentially knock out Cain if enough of them hit, there's no reason for her to not use them.

  • You've seemingly ignored the ice spray which would completely incap Cain if it lands on her. Unless it was the "can only be used three times" gadget you didn't name, in which case the gif only portays that because of when I took the feat. The bottle was used multiple times before that, and if the bottle was full (which it should be), she'd have way more than three uses.

  • Anti-Gravity could potentially take Cain out of the fight completely if Clover manages to snag it on. Once she's floating in the air, she won't be able to defend herself from Clover.

  • The Black Belt is a fair point that I didn't consider, since its main intention was to be used in 3v3 fights. However, I feel like you're over stating Cain's skill advantage and simply saying "Cain outskills Clover can't possibly do that" for any situation where Clover has a chance of winning. If Cain is really as skilled as you're saying, what's stopping Clover from using Cain's skill to stop her from taking the belt off once she puts it on? They'd be evenly skilled and Clover is faster and slightly stronger, so the fight would be over near instantly.

  • If you assume Clover wouldn't kill anyone/use the molecular spray on Cain, you clearly missed out on a feat or two from the respect thread.

At the end of the day, the skill gap is not as immense as you make it out to be, Clover has an advantage in combat speed and strength, and even if all of her gadgets aren't useful, she has way more than Cain does and can use them to easily take her out.

Mirio vs Chimchar

I'm not saying Mirio would punch a monkey in the face...

For one, you're underselling how strong Muscular was to hurt Deku. He was literally shrugging off 100% punches and cracking the mountain behind him when he punched Deku into it. That feat you posted for Chimchar is nowhere near that calibur. Hell, Bakugou's explosions look more harmful than that, and Deku takes those quite often.

Regardless, the whole point of Mirio is that he can bypass durability and phase through attacks that he can see. Chimchar may not have human biology, but he has organs. He has a brain, a stomach, and everything else you'd expect an animal to have. He can still poke Chimchar in the eye to blind it to set up for a shot to the gut, which would still hurt him regardless since no other Pokemon can attack organs, so he has no resistances for it.

The mooks Mirio fought required multiple hits, but he landed those hits in rapid succession so he should be able to get them all off on Chimchar. You also say Mirio doesn't attack organs when serious... but he literally attacked organs in his first showing. There's no reason for him to not do it.

The main question now becomes, can Mirio overcome Chimchar's Flame Wheel? Well, I'm going to propose a different question. How long can Chimchar keep up his fire? If Mirio can't attack Chimchar, his best method of attack is simply to wait it out. By popping into the ground and popping back out for air every once in a while, Mirio can effectively stall him out until the flames run out, in which case clean hits can be landed.

Chimchar's flame seems to burn out once he collides with something, so if he baits Chimchar into charging into a wall and pops out behind him while he's landing on the floor (not covered in flames), this is his opportune moment to win. At this point, it becomes an extremely drawn out match, but one heavily in Mirio's favor.

1

u/Joseph_Stalin_ ​ Mar 13 '18

Number 2 Bay-Beeee

Lady vs. Deku

Shoot-Style

That "bouncing" off the walls style has only been used against Nighteye, and solely to attempt to overwhelm a power Deku knew about. In his initial use of it, he fought Bakugou straight forward doing nothing but charge attacks. He never showcased such movement in the License Exam nor in his Battle with Overhaul. So extremely doubt him using the ability in the heat of battle, and it being too late to realize to use said ability.

Isn't that impressive

It's still enough to say that Lady will have the opportunity to block/dodge Deku's initial assault on her.

Projectile vs Projectile Attack

I don't really understand the reasoning on this? Are you saying Lady won't be able to hit a larger and slower target? If she can track and accurately hit a bullet out of the air, a kid charging/bouncing around wouldn't be too hard to pin.

Blitz Her

Said feat is showing him blitzing a person who was completely off-guard and facing away. In the current situation both opponents are 10m away from each other, more than enough time to do a quick draw. She defeated a bloodlusted Dante in a quickdraw, a casual bullet timer.

Fast enough to graze Gran Torino

This isn't a speed feat very applicable to Deku. Deku already predicted that Torino was going to take his back, and even baited him by making it seem like he was going to repeat a mistake in a fight prior. Gran Torino was caught by surprise by the bait, not just a speed blitz from Deku.

Suicide Attack

Lady has a great resistance to her own Rockets.1-minute-mark So she won't be as in danger as you think in point blank rocket shots, which she will do.

By moderating /r/BokuNoHeroAcademia...

The DMC sub didn't accept me when I applied, probs because they're salty I don't wank him

Cass vs Clover

Superior striking speed...stronger...

I've stated prior, being stronger and faster than Cain isn't enough. She's stalemated Nightwing and defeated Lady Shiva, opponents insanely skilled and stronger. Batman even admitted that Cass could defeat him in H2H, and he's insanely strong and fast.

That fucking Robot Feat

What the hell. This is ridiculous, even with the assist of the other spies. Either this is only applicable to Clover when the other spies are helping or it is a massive outlier. As her other eats don't seem to be in the same caliber.

actually have skill feats

We literally see Clover fail and require the help of another spy to help her fight blindfolded.

Underwater

Wrong Link homeslice

Brainwashed Children

While doing so casually is fine and all, it doesn't hold a candle to defeating a hundred of highly trained assassins solo

Sam KOd an Olympic Level Boxer

Two main things wrong about this. Applying this to another character, even with the same training, you have to prove that both characters are equal first. Secondly, you literally made-up him being an Olympic Level Boxer, he's an ex-Olympic Skier not Boxer.

  • The Hairdryer is most often used as tool than a weapon. There's more instances of it being used to melt ice than to hit a person.

    • It was used as a weapon in the gif of your featured team. Once to weaken/harm mutated plants, but that's seemingly a specific weakness as the Spies "tanked" it without effect. To hold a person in place in place, but required both hands to fire. To knock off a guy's wig. To partially melt a robot, who was walking slowly in a straight line. An attempt on a snowman cause of their specific weakness, but failed due to it not being real. Blow dust/mud at someone, then blow away their belt/weapon. To Blow back a woman at point blank range. Create a Duststorm to knock a giant scorpion in the sky. Finally, to send a man who could throw cars like pebbles flying away. Plus the other times of melting snow/ice
    • Of the 25 appearances of the weapon, most of which weren't even the same one as there are a bunch of variations. They use it to blast away an enemy 4 times. Not to mention the fluctuating power of the weapon it goes from not even heating up people to blowing away cars on accident. The Hairdryer is too inconsistent of a weapon and not used as a weapon often enough to turn the tables.

  • Evapo-Blaster has been shown to melt snow/water in an instant without affecting people. It was also not show how it effected the spies beyond making them pruny, Jerry interfered before any handicap was shown if it existed.

  • Cass does have Ninja Stars, just FYI, RT is missing a few tid bits. Most occasions the spies used the Jetpack were for escape or other flying enemies. I don't believe Clover will or has used her Jetpack as such, and would have no reason to do so now.

  • Ninja Nails would be useful in combat, if allowed to flick in battle. "No Reason Not to Use," this applies to the lasers and drill boots as well. These highly lethal and useful weapons won't be used as it is not in character for the spies.

  • It was the "can only be used 3 times" ordeal. Also, I watched the episode for that gadget, it was used a whopping total 1 time prior to that gif. Cass using her body reading would really help her avoid Clover pointing and shooting it.

  • I agree on the anti-grav point, but this again requires getting a clear open spot on Orphan and dropping it in her clothing.

  • If Clover has the opportunity to somehow tie a blackbelt on Cassandra, why would she do so? To catch Cass that off-guard, she'd be better suited to do literally anything else. Cass isn't just going to stand there letting Clover put on the belt, it's a bad plan or idea in general.

As stated by you "In every episode, they meet the enemy of the week, lose horribly to them, then regroup and use their gadgets to save the day against the enemy that just stomped them into the ground like they're the biggest jobbers in the world." If this is formulaic to them, what's stopping Cass from just stomping from the get go? While you can blame "plot," if the spies generally get owned and don't use gadgets initially, then it is a weakness a person like Cassandra can exploit.

Chimchar vs Lemillion

Literally shrugging off 100% punches

His durability has no bearing on his strength.

Punched Deku

That breaking the rock behind him is impressive, but Deku also broke his arm. The only reason Deku was able to continue to fight or even continue afterwords in the arc was because he was in his "absolute madman" mode. Midoriya also takes regular punches from Bakugou more intensely than those explosions, implying a split durability or some whack shit.
Mirio one-shotted a Deku who wasn't in the same high stress situation as the Muscular fight, and was hit in a weakspot not letting him to reach that state.

I won't deny he can't make a blinding touch, but an attack on the Solar Plexus won't work as it is unknown if a Pokemon has the exact same nervous system of a person, nor do we know that Lemillion knows the anatomy of a monkey to even assume he could try to apply it. Also, heavily doubt he'd do anything remotely lethal as he's a hero and won't risk something as dangerous with an unknown living being.

No Reason Not To

I know, which throws in doubt in the effectiveness of it. He's essentially bloodlusted against the enemies, yet doesn't take the quickest KO option? If a bloodlusted Mirio won't do organ attacks, and only does it as a "lesson". Then we cannot apply it in the current situation.

How long can Chimchar Keep up his Fire?

I'm not 100% certain, but he has been shown to spam his fire a lot in quick succession. He also has great endurance/stamina to keep it up

Stall Out

Mirio has never been shown to "stall" a battle. He's always went head first and attacked. He blitzed 1-A and literally Leroy Jenkins it to Overhaul, all his battles have been him going forward and attacking. So this is effectively Mirio using an OOC tactic to fight.

Baits in charging the wall

Chimchar has fine control of the flame wheel

If Mirio just wittles Chimchar down, he's going to make Chimchar activate his Special Ability Blaze.

Which colliding with things won't turn it off, and move around effortlessly while engulfed in flames.

1

u/LetterSequence ​ Mar 14 '18

Deku stomps

That "bouncing" off the walls style has only been used against Nighteye, and solely to attempt to overwhelm a power Deku knew about. In his initial use of it, he fought Bakugou straight forward doing nothing but charge attacks. He never showcased such movement in the License Exam nor in his Battle with Overhaul.

So you're telling me that Deku only used the wall bounces to overwhelm an opponent he didn't know how to beat, so he wouldn't use them against an opponent he didn't know how to beat? By the way, he couldn't use it against Bakugou if he wanted to since the fight took place outdoors, and his whole strategy against Overhaul was to hit him with a wall bounced kick. He would most definitely use his wall bounce style in the cave to close the gap between him and Lady.

Are you saying Lady won't be able to hit a larger and slower target? If she can track and accurately hit a bullet out of the air, a kid charging/bouncing around wouldn't be too hard to pin.

The difference between a bullet flying straight at her and Deku is that the bullet only moves in one direction. Forward. You aim at the bullet flying at you, shoot it out of the air, it's gone. Easy. Deku moves in predictable directions at vaguely FTE speeds, yes, but you don't know where he's moving. She'd have to accurately predict which direction he'd fly in before he flies there for her to hit him mid path with her bullet. Otherwise she's gonna miss him due to the travel time of the bullet.

While I'm on this long range encounter before Deku gets up close, I want to touch on the idea of Lady beating Deku by just shooting him out of the air. That isn't going to work, unless she scores a direct headshot. Deku's pain tolerance is fucking ridiculous. When it comes to piercing, Deku got stabbed in the arm and leg at the same time and literally just shrugged it off to keep fighting. Not that impressive, but it shows that if he gets shot he won't freeze up and stop fighting. Getting punched into a mountain wall hard enough to break his arm and not even mentioning it is one of his lower end pain tolerance feats. Deku's such a madman, he'll break his limbs with his 100% attacks, break them again just to keep fighting until he physically can't use the limb anymore, and then he'll keep using the limb anyway. I have no doubt that if the gunshot doesn't immediately cripple him, he won't see it as anything more than a minor inconvenience and keep advancing forward toward Lady.

Said feat is showing him blitzing a person who was completely off-guard and facing away.

Fine, here's him blitzing Stain in the same fight. Here's him catching punching All Might in the face while they're fighting. You and I both read this manga, we both know Deku is perfectly capable of blitzing people in a fight who are slower than him, and in hand to hand combat, Lady is most certainly slower than him.

She defeated a bloodlusted Dante in a quickdraw, a casual bullet timer.

This is a shitty feat by the way because she raises her gun way before him so it feels less like she won a quickdraw and more like he stood still and let her shoot him.

This isn't a speed feat very applicable to Deku. Deku already predicted that Torino was going to take his back, and even baited him by making it seem like he was going to repeat a mistake in a fight prior.

So what's stopping Deku from doing something similar and relying on his predictions to help him in this fight? He's already analyzed opponents and found ways to counter them mid fight before. He also predicted the movements of an opponent who could turn invisible. He should have no problem doing it again and predicting what Lady will do against him.

Lady has a great resistance to her own Rockets. So she won't be as in danger as you think in point blank rocket shots, which she will do.

In the first feat she jumps before the explosion feedback can hit her and in the second feat the rocket explodes away from her. These are pretty wack resistance feats. In fact, from what I just saw, even Deku has better explosive resistance.

Since the deadline is tonight I'm just gonna put my conclusions here since neither of us will be able to reply in time.

Deku is significantly faster than Lady in H2H combat. While Lady is more durable, she isn't stronger than him, so he can whittle her down with his wall busting strikes until she falls. Lady's only advantages are her weapons at long range, which she'll be hard pressed to land an attack on him while he's bouncing off the walls of the cave at blur speed. Even if she lands a hit on him, Deku has pain resistance feats to suggest he can tank a gunshot or two and still fight. Once Deku gets into close range, Lady loses all advantages and he'll be able to handle her with ease.

2

u/LetterSequence ​ Mar 14 '18 edited Mar 14 '18

Clover outskills

She's stalemated Nightwing and defeated Lady Shiva, opponents insanely skilled and stronger. Batman even admitted that Cass could defeat him in H2H, and he's insanely strong and fast.

From the RT: "He was surprised by her kicking him off his motorcycle, was already injured, and was underestimating her."

As for the Lady Shiva fight, Shiva isn't even fighting back. It seems less like she outskills Shiva and more like she beats up a punching bag named Lady Shiva.

When skilled opponents actually realize "hey this kid is actually pretty strong", they tend to gain the upper hand on her without much issue

As for "Batman says Cass would win", Batman has better feats than her across the board and better training. I find it highly unbelievable that Batman would lose to her. Especially if he had time to prepare beforehand.

As a quick note, Cass's training involved numerous years of hard work and grueling mental/physical abuse against countless opponents just for her to gain the ability to "stalemate" injured Batman level characters. Clover was an average high school girl who underwent a 48 hour boot camp and all of her physical stats got amped up higher than Cass's. Sounds to me like Jerry is a better trainer than Lady Shiva was.

Either this is only applicable to Clover when the other spies are helping or it is a massive outlier.

Clover has similar strength feats, but you're right in that it's probably an outlier. It was more of an example of what the fruits of Clover's training would allow her to do.

Joe insulting my skill feats

I was in a bit of a rush to get my post in because it was before the deadline in all honesty, so here's some better skill feats. Here's Clover knocking out trained secret service agents at the White House. Clover can also fight spies from another organization while moving on top of a moving jet. She also beats Jerry and various WHOOP agents while they're disguised. It's worth noting that Jerry trained the spies himself, and is the most skilled person in the company as a result.

Of the 25 appearances of the weapon, most of which weren't even the same one as there are a bunch of variations. They use it to blast away an enemy 4 times.

The fact that they use it to blast enemies away at all mean it's a consistent enough weapon for combat purposes. If it's strong enough to stagger a helicopter, it should be strong enough to knock Cass to the ground. The various changes on the weapon's power level is because of the multiple variants it has. I'm specifically using the one in the RT, the one used to fire blasts of air.

It was also not show how it effected the spies beyond making them pruny, Jerry interfered before any handicap was shown if it existed.

I think having all the water removed from your body and suffering from dehydration is enough of a handicap, regardless of if it affects their physicals or not. If Jerry didn't interfere the spies would most likely be dead right now.

Cass does have Ninja Stars, just FYI, RT is missing a few tid bits.

Thanks for not showing any scans of this for me to believe you. As an FYI, Sam has dodged ninja stars before and Clover is faster than her. Not a hard thing to counter.

"No Reason Not to Use," this applies to the lasers and drill boots as well. These highly lethal and useful weapons won't be used as it is not in character for the spies.

There's a difference between flicking an explosive at someone (when in your universe people who get hit by explosions pretty much only ever get knocked out), and kicking them in the chest with a giant drill in your heel. One is a valid way of fighting, the other is a total blood bath. There's a reason I mentioned she would use the ninja nails and not the drill or lasers on her opponents.

Cass using her body reading would really help her avoid Clover pointing and shooting it.

Cass's only real method of fighting is at close quarters. If she goes in for a punch, she'll be in range of getting blasted by the ice perfume. Even if she dodges out the way, it'll just take being frozen in the leg or the arm for her to gain a massive advantage in the fight, on top of the fact that a direct hit to the chest would instantly incap her.

I agree on the anti-grav point, but this again requires getting a clear open spot on Orphan and dropping it in her clothing.

You've already admitted that Cass and Clover are at similar speeds and this might end up going to close combat. Clover will have plenty of opportunities to get the gadget in on her.

If Clover has the opportunity to somehow tie a blackbelt on Cassandra, why would she do so? To catch Cass that off-guard, she'd be better suited to do literally anything else. Cass isn't just going to stand there letting Clover put on the belt, it's a bad plan or idea in general.

I'm not saying one idea is better than another. You went through every single one of her gadgets, and I'm simply rebutting what her options are if she so chooses to use the gadget in the fight. Clover has an abundance of ways to win, so even if one gadget seems impractical, another will allow her the chance she needs to win.

If this is formulaic to them, what's stopping Cass from just stomping from the get go? While you can blame "plot," if the spies generally get owned and don't use gadgets initially, then it is a weakness a person like Cassandra can exploit.

Well to be fair, not every single episode is like that. If the spies know that their opponent is a serious threat to them and their lives, they'll be serious from the get-go. It's similar to how Cass started losing to Red Hood. She'll have the advantage from the start, but once Clover realizes this kid means business, she'll stop jobbing and take the fight more seriously. At that point, her superior stats, spy training, and plethora of gadgets will give her the edge in this battle.

Mirio Mirio's

Honestly I have no idea why we're debating about Deku's durability in this argument when Mirio's punches bypassed his durability and attacked him directly in his organ, so I'm just gonna move on from this.

I won't deny he can't make a blinding touch, but an attack on the Solar Plexus won't work as it is unknown if a Pokemon has the exact same nervous system of a person, nor do we know that Lemillion knows the anatomy of a monkey to even assume he could try to apply it.

Now you have to be memeing. A pokemon is still an animal. Of course it has a stomach. It eats food. It may or may not have a solar plexus, but it still has organs for Mirio to directly attack. Regardless of the intricate biology of a Pokemon, he can deduce that it has a brain, and that it has a stomach since it has all the features of a regular monkey. That's all he needs to know to get an organ punch off.

He's essentially bloodlusted against the enemies, yet doesn't take the quickest KO option? If a bloodlusted Mirio won't do organ attacks, and only does it as a "lesson".

He was trying to knock out Overhaul with a shot to the head, which is why he was aiming there with all of his attacks. He probably figured that head trauma was a better option for a quick knockout since Overhaul could heal his own injuries, so he needed to beat him in one shot.

Speaking of hits to the head, Chimchar got knocked out by Ash's Aipom when at that point in the series, Aipom's literal best strength feat was kicking up some rocks after hitting Pikachu. It's reasonable to assume that Chimchar would get hurt by Mirio's punches considering this.

Mirio has never been shown to "stall" a battle.

Well to be fair, he never fought an opponent that was on fire.

In the end, Mirio would likely try to fight Chimchar in a fair fight, phasing to avoid the flame wheel attacks. Once an opportunity presented itself, he'd punch that monkey square in the jaw and knock it into blaze. From there, he'd realize that his opportunities are dwindling and resort to using an organ punch.

Throughout the whole debate, you argued how Chimchar beats Mirio if he gets a hit off, but you presented no reasonable counter for the phasing besides "well Chimchar is on fire so Mirio can't hit him." When asked how long the fire stays, your answer seemed to allude to the fact that the answer wasn't "forever", so therefore opportunities for Mirio to strike would present themselves. Chimchar certainly is stronger than him, but he's not quite fast enough to attack Mirio before he can phase through him, so I'm pretty confident in saying that Mirio would win this one.

And now, the GOD OF DEBATING rests his case.