r/whowouldwin • u/That_guy_why ​ • Jun 13 '18

Special The Great Debate Season 5 Round 3

Rules

Battle Rules

  • Speed is to be equalized to a base of Mach 300. Speed boosts via abilities, however, are indeed allowed to make one surpass this base speed threshold. Projectile speed maintains relative velocity compared to the combatant it originates from; a human scaled up to this speed firing a gun means their bullet moves as fast to a Mach 300 character as a bullet does to us as normal humans.

  • Battleground: 'Your ancestors called it magic; you call it science. I come from a land where they are one and the same thing.' DEFENDER OF THE 9 REALMS, ASGARD!!! A floating realm where the protectors of all realms reside, Asgard is an advanced magical realm full of advanced science and immensely powerful warriors. Armed with the Bifrost gate which enables teleportation anywhere in the 9 realms, sporting numerous mountains and an enormous golden-hued city, Asgard is the pinnacle of civilized society and advancement. For the purposes of this tourney, you can indeed be knocked off Asgard. However, bear in mind that combat proper shall begin in the main courtyard of Asgard before the palace, where Hela slew many Asgardian warriors. Combatants start precisely 10 meters away from their opposition and in a line spaced 10 meters apart from their allies. Every combatant starts each round being 'teleported' into the arena, knowing full well whomever they face down needs to die or be incapacitated in order for they themselves to advance and win and will do so. All combatants begin without any weapons drawn or abilities active, hands idle at their sides, weapons holstered, and the moment they teleport in they can begin combat. All combatants are in-character for the tourney itself.

Submission Rules

  • Tier: Must be able to win an unlikely victory, draw/near draw, or likely victory against Yusuke Urameshi in the conditions outlined above. All entrants will be bloodlusted against Yusuke, meaning they will act fully rationally and put down their opponent in the quickest, most efficient manner possible regardless of morality, utilizing any and all possible techniques/tactics/attacks if necessary. The bloodlust does not give any foreknowledge of Yusuke or his capabilities.

Debate Rules

  • Rounds will last 4-5 days, hopefully from Monday until Thursday or Friday of each week of the tourney; no time limit, however each user MUST get in two responses or else be disqualified. If one user waits until the very last minute to force this rule to DQ their opponent without any forewarning to their opponents or the tournament supervisors, they will be removed from this tournament, no exceptions.

Current Bracket and Match Style

Brackets Here

Determined by coin flip, the first round was 1v1 Matches, meaning this round shall be:

1v1 Singles Matches

The match-up order is in the comments

Round 2 Ends June 18th, 11:59 EST

  • Format for each round: both respondents get Intro + 1st Response, then 2nd response, then a 3rd response and closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. EACH RESPONSE MUST BE NO LONGER THAN TWO 10,000 CHARACTER REDDIT COMMENTS LONG.

  • Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are determined by submission order (I.E. Your first submission vs. their first submission, and so on) randomized order based on sign up order via an internet list randomizer. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa. First Round will be determined by coin flip.

Tribunal for reference

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u/GuyOfEvil ​ Jun 16 '18

Bucky vs Dragon

In this fight, the first advantage for Dragon is the starting distance. At the close range combat starts at, Bucky is basically immediately in range of Dragon’s containment foam, which is on each Azazel as well as the Cawthorne. Given Bucky’s peak human strength, he’ll immediately be incapacitated if hit by containment foam, which spreads quickly and can hold someone of similar strength (Scaling:low-amp Lung can swing people like a flail.

Bucky is unlikely to get hit with containment foam, Crawler is able to dodge the foam from the Azazels casually, so it should be dodgable, and as far as I can tell from the RT, the Cawthorne doesn't have any containment foam, so its unlikely to be a major issue.

Furthermore, Containment Foam gives no real resistance to cutting, with only impact and tearing being mentioned. So even if Bucky does get hit, he would be able to break out with his shield considering it acts as if it has a cutting edge.

Containment Foam won't be an issue for Bucky, and since my oponment implies it's what Dragon will open with, he should have little issue teleporting away if his emp isn't usable.

Bucky's Teleporter

I see two major issues with my oponment's strategy of reopening Bucky's portals. First of all, this strategy would take time to preform, and Bucky wouldn't teleport to a location where he couldn't see his enemies. Once they start reopening the portal, he could easily detect them and deal with them using regular explosive aoe.

The second issue is Dragon doesn't have access to the portal opening drones. The drones in the Glaurung Zero are described as "metal objects the size of beach balls", which is clearly different from the limbed portal opening drones. Even the RT considers them a different type of drone.

Area of Effect

My opponent likely skipped to the Man On The Wall section of the RT, and missed other viable Area of Effect options at Bucky's disposal. He possesses a missile launcher capable of one shotting Crimson Dynamo. Crimson Dynamo's durability is unclear, but its likely better than the Dragon suits, which all have pretty much nothing in the way of durability. He also has strong explosive charges, which could cause a large amount of damage to Dragon's arsenal.

Also, his higher tier weapons aren't AoE in the traditional sense, but he can snipe twelve targets in quick succession before being noticed, a feat he would easily have the chance to replicate against Dragon's army

EMP

Bucky’s EMP appears to require extremely close range to use, judging by the fact that he had to touch Iron Man to use it.

He seems ready to use it from range, but even if the range is too little, its still a functional trump card against all of Dragon's weapons.

Furthermore, the Pythios 2 has electricity resistance feats and containment foam. Similarly, the drones that dragon has due to the Glaurung Zero can redirect lightning and have plenty of methods to incapacitate Bucky.

Tanking electricity externally isn't enough evidence to say something could resist an EMP, an EMP causes damage to internal power flows directly, something Dragon lacks shown resistance to in any of her suits.

and have plenty of methods to incapacitate Bucky.

I wouldn't think she has these drones either.

Conclusion

Dragon's options to incapacitate Bucky are all countered by his shield and arm's emp, and her options to meaningfully disrupt him are locked away in drones she doesn't have access to. Bucky could easily escape and use a mix of his aoe options, quick sniping, and ability to move around quickly with teleportation to eventually beat Dragon's forces.

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u/Tarroyn Jun 17 '18

Response 2

Bai Yu vs Gandharva

Preface:

This battle is not very complex in terms of strategy. Neither Bai Yu nor Gandharva have a tendency to use intricate strategies in combat, and so it mostly boils down to a discussion of their respective offensive and defensive capabilities. As such, I will be combining my rebuttal section with the discussion of their relative abilities.

Gandharva Damage Output

There is still no relevant scaling for this feat. My opponent later brings up a different spell capable of breaking different closed spaces, but it doesn't seem to disprove Brelith's Closed Space being superior to other closed spaces.

I agree that Brilith’s closed space is stronger. I am scaling to Maruna’s Crimson Sunshine of Dawn, which he used against Brilith’s closed space and destroyed the mountains with. I scaled the Crimson Sunshine of Dawn to Gandharva’s physical strength using Maruna’s character statement of destroying two average closed spaces and then justified the statement by showing him destroying a closed space with Crimson Sunshine of Dawn.

Bai Yu damage output

And one amp before their fight, it was able to somewhat mitigate the damage caused by Tian's Blood Spear. (Scaling: Tian's Blood Spear surpasses the power of the attack that did this).

This feat is not very quantifiable for scaling purposes. Ah Gou explicitly could not stop the Blood Spear, and it appears he damaged his arm in the process, as opposed to the Bai Yu fight where his monochrome was merely pushed back. Considering the more quantifiable monochrome defensive feats we’ve posted so far, this puts Bai Yu’s aura shockwaves anywhere between destroying a large building and half of a mountain, which is far too large of a gap to assume the highest end of.

Gandharva Durability

The scaling on display here is faulty. This skill killed Hura, and the turrets merely did damage to Hura. All that can be extrapolated from this is that the damage output of a turret is somewhere below the Sword of Return’s Energy Ball Transcendental Skill. This gives no indication of the turret's true damage output, and as such no-selling turrets gives little indication that Gandharva could survive many of Bai Yu's attacks.

That scaling was poor on my part. For a better measure of Gandharva’s durability, Kasak was hurt by earth turrets, which makes him less durable than Gandharva. Kasak tanked a hit that cracked a mountain from Maruna (The grass-like stuff are trees, as evidenced by this scan of Maruna for scale). This puts his durability comfortably around mountain tier.

For Energy attacks in particular, like those of Bai Yu, Gandharva also has durability feats scaling from his fight with Agni. He took a hit from Agni’s Prominence and Agni has vaporized a lake near instantly (size of lake for scale). Gandharva’s durability to energy attacks is fairly significant.

Bai Yu Durability

Bai Yu’s Armor of Origin was broken by Zongheng Tianxia who’s best non-limit break feats are this crater and this explosion. That puts Bai Yu’s durability significantly below Gandharva’s attack strength, whether at close range or with Transcendental Skills.

Bai Yu’s likelihood of dodging

Citizens of Wan Qu believe emotions are unnecessary. Bai Yu is unlikely to let his pride get in the way of him winning, and even if he does, he will not for long.

Bai Yu is extremely arrogant. In addition, a lack of emotions is not a guarantee that he will fight optimally, as combat on Phantom Island is incredibly underdeveloped.

Wanmei Xiyue vs Ronan

Preface:

This fight is similar to the previous, in that neither combatant has a specialized combat style that would alter the fight from being a (mostly) straight fight. As such, the fight mostly boils down to a discussion of combat capabilities. Since those were mostly established in the previous arguments, this section will mostly be rebuttals and justification.

True Vampire biology and the Martial Stat

This is misrepresenting what the Martial stat represents. It isn't a measure of physical ability, its a measure of combat capability. Most of Xiyue's increases in Martial ability aren't increases of her physical capability, they're increases in her combat capability. For example, one of the martial stat increases came from experience from hunting a monster, and from being "driven". The power ranking states just by virtue of being a True Vampire, a True Vampire should be a 40.

The Martial stat is as you say, a comprehensive evaluation of the combat capability. As such, it is just as viable to assume that her low beginning Martial stat is due to being inexperienced, and that the usual combat capabilities of a True Vampire factor in experience. As such, as she gains Martial (from traits) she becomes experienced to the point where the scaling is valid.

Lastly, Xiyue is explicitly not as strong as her sister, so there's absolutely no reason to scale between the two.

This is true for Xiyue’s physical strength. I will discuss her sorceries in more detail in the next section.

Ultimate Class Circles and their strength Equivalents

Furthermore, there isn't any indication that the magic being fired is ultimate class. In fact, its probably impossible for them to be Ultimate Class considering Ultimate Class Circles are skyscraper sized. Xiyue and Ai are both human sized, its impossible for multiple skyscraper sized blasts to hit them at the same time.

In the AGG:CORE universe, Ultimate-class circles are the strongest weapon a non-sorcerer can use. Wanmei Xiyue, being a sorcerer, uses sorcery instead, as it has a greater degree of versatility than circle magic.

Arguments supporting Xiyue’s magic being equivalent to Ultimate-Class circles:

Wanmei Ai no-sells moderate amounts of high class magic. She also considers Wanmei Xiyue the highest threat. If Xiyue’s attacks were ineffective, she wouldn’t be considered the highest threat.

Wanmei Xiyue’s attacks cancel out Wanmei Ai’s attacks. If she was using weaker attacks, that would not be the case. Wanmei Ai’s attack strength is Ultimate-Class, as she was the one who used the Ultimate-Class circle. It is absurd to believe she would use a weaker attack in combat when the previous attack was no-sold.

The Narrator calls the two True Vampires equals. Since he had previously said she was not equal in physical strength, but magic was her forte, it is very likely that Xiyue can use Ultimate-Class magic.

Wanmei Ai striking strength

This scaling is also faulty. The armor stands up to strikes from Wanmei Ai with seemingly no difficulty, other than being blown back there's no indication that they were damaged.

The suits groan in protest against the strikes. The suits can last a few moments in combat. ‘No difficulty’ is not the descriptor I would use for that.

Wanmei Xiyue’s Volume of Fire

Hundreds is almost certainly hyperbole, considering the speaker explicitly can't tell how many are being fired.

The quote says ‘The amount was beyond your reckoning’. That implies that the volume of fire was significant. It was followed by ‘Hundreds of beams…’ which serves to quantify the amount of shots fired. The order of this phrasing implies that the feat itself is not hyperbolic, but rather the best estimate the narrator could give.

Ronan’s Universal Weapon

Xiyue's damage output is limited, and can easily be shielded or even potentially absorbed.

The shield I discussed in my first post, and noted that it is significantly below the strength of Xiyue’s attacks. The absorption he is fairly unlikely to do in character. Most of the time, he’ll just use the weapon as a cudgel, but absorption specifically he is especially unlikely to use, as in other fights against the human torch, he used energy blasts and deoxygenization. In addition, he needs to aim the hammer to absorb an attack, a feat which is difficult to do on many thin beams of energy.

By "alive" I more meant biological than sentient. There's no reason to assume Ronan couldn't affect something he's been shown to be able to affect simply because it houses a soul.

Both of Ronan’s deconstruction feats have been on metals. The Phoenix Armor is not made of metal, or at the very least a metal he’s manipulated.

In addition, the organic/inorganic divide is unlikely in the first place, given the materials he’s manipulated. He’s manipulated a sword, which is likely to contain some amount of iron. If that is the case, he could manipulate the iron in someone’s body so that he could affect biological beings. The same goes for any of the other elements within Stellaris’ suit or the sword. With that taken into consideration, it is more likely that Ronan simply can’t manipulate beings with souls.

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u/Tarroyn Jun 17 '18 edited Jun 17 '18

Response 2 Part 2

Dragon vs Bucky Barnes

Preface:

This fight is a chase, which means that the ability of Dragon to catch Bucky is contrasted with his ability to escape capture and disable Dragon’s mechs. As such, this section will be essentially entirely rebuttals.

On Drones:

The second issue is Dragon doesn't have access to the portal opening drones. The drones in the Glaurung Zero are described as "metal objects the size of beach balls", which is clearly different from the limbed portal opening drones. Even the RT considers them a different type of drone.

I wouldn't think she has these drones either.

Dragon likely updated her old suits over the timeskip in which she created the Azazel. Furthermore, there isn’t actually evidence that the drones mentioned aren’t going to be available on the Glaurung Zero. Dragon specialized the drones for that particular Weaver encounter to the bug-killing type. For a general purpose fight, it is likely that Dragon will bring a variety of different drones for a variety of potential situations.

On Containment Foam:

Bucky is unlikely to get hit with containment foam, Crawler is able to dodge the foam from the Azazels casually, so it should be dodgable

Crawler has some speed feats. He has dodged Glory Girl who pushes 80 MPH. His speed is far enough above the average speed of the verse that I believe it is unlikely Bucky could dodge containment foam, especially not in the amount of numbers that Dragon has access to.

as far as I can tell from the RT, the Cawthorne doesn't have any containment foam, so its unlikely to be a major issue.

It does. In fact, this scan is right in the scan you posted.

Furthermore, Containment Foam gives no real resistance to cutting, with only impact and tearing being mentioned. So even if Bucky does get hit, he would be able to break out with his shield considering it acts as if it has a cutting edge.

Bucky needs to have leverage to cut with his shield. Even if his shield can cut containment foam easily, his arm needs to move to do the cutting. Containment foam denies him the movement to cut with it. Besides, if Bucky is contained for the length of time it takes for him to cut himself free, he’ll likely be incapacitated by more containment foam. Dragon can definitely spread containment foam at a faster rate than Bucky can cut.

On Dragon’s Hunting Ability

I see two major issues with my oponment's strategy of reopening Bucky's portals. First of all, this strategy would take time to preform, and Bucky wouldn't teleport to a location where he couldn't see his enemies. Once they start reopening the portal, he could easily detect them and deal with them using regular explosive aoe.

All of Dragon’s Azazels have a large amount of sensory tools. Even if Bucky teleports, if he teleports in sight range, Dragon will almost certainly immediately be able to attack.

My opponent likely skipped to the Man On The Wall section of the RT, and missed other viable Area of Effect options at Bucky's disposal. He possesses a missile launcher capable of one shotting Crimson Dynamo. Crimson Dynamo's durability is unclear, but its likely better than the Dragon suits, which all have pretty much nothing in the way of durability. He also has strong explosive charges, which could cause a large amount of damage to Dragon's arsenal.

Azazel suits can timestop themselves and use the invincibility to take Bucky’s attacks. They can also be shielded by the Ladon 2 (Scaling: Sundancer’s sun’s can vaporize pavement.

Also, his higher tier weapons aren't AoE in the traditional sense, but he can snipe twelve targets in quick succession before being noticed, a feat he would easily have the chance to replicate against Dragon's army

Bucky’s sniper rifle use would basically immediately give away his position, given how dragon can view thousands of places at once. Again, Bucky losing his cover means essentially immediate incapacitation, given how many drones and mechs dragon will swarm him with.

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u/GuyOfEvil ​ Jun 17 '18

Third Response

Bai Yu vs Gandharva

Offensive Output:

I agree that Brilith’s closed space is stronger. I am scaling to Maruna’s Crimson Sunshine of Dawn, which he used against Brilith’s closed space and destroyed the mountains with. I scaled the Crimson Sunshine of Dawn to Gandharva’s physical strength using Maruna’s character statement of destroying two average closed spaces and then justified the statement by showing him destroying a closed space with Crimson Sunshine of Dawn.

This just proves my point. Brelith's closed space is at minimum two times better than an average closed space, and considering it isn't even particularly strained by an attack that can destroy two average closed spaces, its probably even more. This puts Gandharva's strength somewhere above at least double below the feat you are scaling to. It isn't enough to say he could physically contest with Bai Yu's battle armor.

Bai Yu's damage output

Considering the more quantifiable monochrome defensive feats we’ve posted so far, this puts Bai Yu’s aura shockwaves anywhere between destroying a large building and half of a mountain, which is far too large of a gap to assume the highest end of.

Assuming my opponent refers to the Zhui Ri scaling I brought up earlier with their mention of large building level damage, they are ignoring a large amount of context. Firstly, the destruction stretches further than just the tree. Secondly, this feat was preformed two massive amps ago, after both of which his Monochrome is shown to be signifigantly improved. Its even commented on in volume 3. Bai Yu's Aura of Origin is at minimum massively above large building level. And due to Gandharva's nebulous durability, there's no indication he could tank something like that.

Gandharva Durability

That scaling was poor on my part. For a better measure of Gandharva’s durability, Kasak was hurt by earth turrets, which makes him less durable than Gandharva. Kasak tanked a hit that cracked a mountain from Maruna (The grass-like stuff are trees, as evidenced by this scan of Maruna for scale). This puts his durability comfortably around mountain tier.

This scaling suffers from the same problem as the previous scaling. The turrets do less damage than the attack they are being scaled off of, in fact there isn't any indication Kasak would even be meaningfully damaged by the turrets, just that it hurts to have them continuously fire at him. On the other hand, Kasak is meaningfully hurt by an attack that isn't even mountain level.

This puts Gandharva's durability at no selling things massively below not even mountain level. It still isn't a great basis to say he could tank much of anything coming from Bai Yu.

Bai Yu Durability

Bai Yu’s Armor of Origin was broken by Zongheng Tianxia who’s best non-limit break feats are this crater and this explosion. That puts Bai Yu’s durability significantly below Gandharva’s attack strength, whether at close range or with Transcendental Skills.

This feat is taken wildly out of context. Zongheng destroyed Bai Yu's Battle Armor While it was under the effects of both True Dark Prison, and another Dark One Soul Gear. So yes, Zongheng broke Bai Yu's armor while it had the weight of a mountain pressing into it, his stats were cut in half (further note here, this mentions only lethality, but later on in volume 3 it specifically shows defenses being lowered)

This doesn't negate the other feats I've brought up at all, Bai Yu's battle armor can stay together under True Dark Prison, which easily puts it at mountain level, and in the range to tank more than a few of Gandharva's attacks, and plenty to say he could tank Gandharva's physical strikes.

Conclusion:

Nothing has changed, Gandharva's physical stats are still far too vague to suggest that he could tank sustained fire from Bai Yu or that he could damage Bai Yu with his physical strength.

Bai Yu is extremely arrogant. In addition, a lack of emotions is not a guarantee that he will fight optimally, as combat on Phantom Island is incredibly underdeveloped.

His arrogance comes from a strong desire to save his people, it would be unlikely to come up in a random encounter. Furthermore, it isn't as if dodging easily dodgable attacks takes a massive amount of tactical skill.

Ronan vs Wanmei Xiyue

True Vampire Physiology

This is true for Xiyue’s physical strength. I will discuss her sorceries in more detail in the next section.

My oponment agrees that Xiyue's physical strength is not equal to Ai, this makes the discussion of Ai's physical strength irrelevant. Xiyue has no physical strength feats, and has no hope of overpowering Ronan in close combat.

Xiyue damage output

My opponent misunderstood my point. To clarify, I do not believe Xiyue is unable to use Ultimate Class Circles, although the fact that she never has in combat is notable. My point was she was not using Ultimate Class Circles in this scan, due to the impossibility of this confrontation based on the size of Ultimate Class Circle attacks.

If she attempts to bombard Ronan with lower level magic, which is stated to be on the level of artillery, this will do no damage to Ronan, and will lead to her quickly being taken out.

The quote says ‘The amount was beyond your reckoning’. That implies that the volume of fire was significant. It was followed by ‘Hundreds of beams…’ which serves to quantify the amount of shots fired. The order of this phrasing implies that the feat itself is not hyperbolic, but rather the best estimate the narrator could give.

So its an estimate, not literal hundreds. I am fine with this assessment.

he is especially unlikely to use, as in other fights against the human torch, he used energy blasts and deoxygenization. In addition, he needs to aim the hammer to absorb an attack, a feat which is difficult to do on many thin beams of energy.

Absorption is an option he has on Ultimate Class Attacks if she attempts to use them due to their immense size.

Phoenix Armor Deconstruction

Both of Ronan’s deconstruction feats have been on metals. The Phoenix Armor is not made of metal, or at the very least a metal he’s manipulated.

Is there evidence of this? I can find nothing in descriptions of the Phoenix Armor that says what it's made of.

In addition, the organic/inorganic divide is unlikely in the first place, given the materials he’s manipulated. He’s manipulated a sword, which is likely to contain some amount of iron. If that is the case, he could manipulate the iron in someone’s body so that he could affect biological beings. The same goes for any of the other elements within Stellaris’ suit or the sword. With that taken into consideration, it is more likely that Ronan simply can’t manipulate beings with souls.

There's no real proof one way or the other on this, so instead of making wild guesses, I'll bring up the fact that Ronan can prevent matter transmutation and rearrangement to nullify a fefensive power, which seems to be much of how the Phoenix Armor operates, considering it folds to defend Xiyue. This is as direct a feat we will get of him manipulating or not manipulating something similar to the Phoenix Armor, so it should be weighed the most highly in this discussion.

Conclusion

My opponent failed to address questions of Xiyue being able to use her magic in close combat, which were brought up in my previous response. They also concede that Xiyue is weaker than Wanmei Ai physically. Combined, these two facts mean that Xiyue has absolutely no hope of defeating Ronan in melee, and due to the small starting distance, the fight will take place solely in melee range. There is no hope for Xiyue in melee combat.

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u/GuyOfEvil ​ Jun 17 '18

Bucky vs Dragon

Drones

Dragon likely updated her old suits over the timeskip in which she created the Azazel. Furthermore, there isn’t actually evidence that the drones mentioned aren’t going to be available on the Glaurung Zero. Dragon specialized the drones for that particular Weaver encounter to the bug-killing type. For a general purpose fight, it is likely that Dragon will bring a variety of different drones for a variety of potential situations.

Firstly, Drones that can counter portal creation are equally specific, and considering the low amount of people who can make portals that exist, if she was preparing for a random encounter there's no reason to bring something so specific.

Secondly, My opponent didn't specify a loadout of drones in their submission post, so it would be best to assume she only has the drones within the named suits.

Containment Foam

Crawler has some speed feats. He has dodged Glory Girl who pushes 80 MPH

I see two major issues with this. Firstly, the 80 mph scaling for Glory Girl is inaccurate, considering Crawler dodges her punches and 80 mph refers to her travel speed. Even if it was used to show her reaction speed, that would still not be indicative of her striking speed.

Secondly, even if this scaling is perfectly accurate, 80 mph is well within human reaction speed. In a speed equalized environment, Bucky wouldn't be hard pressed to dodge these, or at the very least block with his shield.

Hunting Ability

All of Dragon’s Azazels have a large amount of sensory tools Even if Bucky teleports, if he teleports in sight range, Dragon will almost certainly immediately be able to attack.

Even if he was spotted, he could easily simply implement hit and run tactics, since his range is signifigantly longer than him. If he caught onto the fact that it was only the Azazel suits with this functionality, he could easily teleport far enough away, then rapidly eliminate all of them

Azazel suits can timestop themselves and use the invincibility to take Bucky’s attacks.

Firstly, they only seem to be able to timestop the grappling hook, not their entire body. Secondly, they'd have to be able to react to Bucky's weaponry, which is unlikely considering the massive speed of most of his weapons effective from space.

They can also be shielded by the Ladon 2 (Scaling: Sundancer’s sun’s can vaporize pavement.

The Ladon 2's only feats are heat resistance ones. Even if you presumed they had a physical force component, they could be easily broken by Bucky's S tier weaponry.

Bucky’s sniper rifle use would basically immediately give away his position, given how dragon can view thousands of places at once.

This is reliant on internet connected video recorders or cameras, of which there are none in Asgard.

Conclusion:

Dragon has nothing that will stop Bucky from escaping, and no extremely effective methods of stopping hit and run tactics. Using his more powerful weaponry, he will be able to whittle away at Dragon's forces extremely quickly, which will completely remove her ability to monitor him further, until her forces are completely defeated.

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u/Tarroyn Jun 18 '18

Response 3

Bai Yu vs Gandharva

Offensive Comparison

This just proves my point. Brelith's closed space is at minimum two times better than an average closed space, and considering it isn't even particularly strained by an attack that can destroy two average closed spaces, its probably even more. This puts Gandharva's strength somewhere above at least double below the feat you are scaling to. It isn't enough to say he could physically contest with Bai Yu's battle armor.

You misunderstood the scaling. Maruna’s Crimson Sunshine of Dawn has destroyed multiple mountains. This has been established. It can break two closed spaces. This has been established. Gandharva can break a closed space with physical attacks. This has been established. Ergo, Gandharva’s physical attacks are half of the strength of Maruna’s Crimson Sunshine of Dawn, aka half of a few mountains. The strength of Brilith’s closed space is not relevant to this discussion.

Assuming my opponent refers to the Zhui Ri scaling I brought up earlier with their mention of large building level damage, they are ignoring a large amount of context. Firstly, the destruction stretches further than just the tree. Secondly, this feat was preformed two massive amps ago, after both of which his Monochrome is shown to be signifigantly improved. Its even commented on in volume 3. Bai Yu's Aura of Origin is at minimum massively above large building level. And due to Gandharva's nebulous durability, there's no indication he could tank something like that.

Undefinable amps aren’t useful for judging the strength via scaling. Even considering the Zhui Ri scaling to be City Block, the gap between City Block and Half of a mountain is far too large to assume the highest end of.

Defensive Ability Comparison

This scaling suffers from the same problem as the previous scaling. The turrets do less damage than the attack they are being scaled off of, in fact there isn't any indication Kasak would even be meaningfully damaged by the turrets, just that it hurts to have them continuously fire at him. On the other hand, Kasak is meaningfully hurt by an attack that isn't even mountain level.

Kasak is less durable than Gandharva. This is evident, because he takes damage from an attack Gandharva does not take damage from. Thus, Kasak’s durability feats can be scaled to Gandharva.

As for the strength of the feat itself, Kasak was hit full-body by a being the size of a mountain, and slammed into a large mountain with the force required to put a large crater in it. That feat is solidly mountain level in strength.

This feat is taken wildly out of context. Zongheng destroyed Bai Yu's Battle Armor While it was under the effects of both True Dark Prison, and another Dark One Soul Gear. So yes, Zongheng broke Bai Yu's armor while it had the weight of a mountain pressing into it, his stats were cut in half (further note here, this mentions only lethality, but later on in volume 3 it specifically shows defenses being lowered) This doesn't negate the other feats I've brought up at all, Bai Yu's battle armor can stay together under True Dark Prison, which easily puts it at mountain level, and in the range to tank more than a few of Gandharva's attacks, and plenty to say he could tank Gandharva's physical strikes.

These two feats in tandem do not indicate that Bai Yu’s armor can stand up to a significant amount of Gandharva’s attacks, or even one. His Battle Armor was so weakened by True Dark Prison that a significantly weaker attacker could break it. Ergo, he can barely handle a mountain level attack. This is obviously within Gandharva’s attack strength, whether at close or long range.

His arrogance comes from a strong desire to save his people, it would be unlikely to come up in a random encounter. Furthermore, it isn't as if dodging easily dodgable attacks takes a massive amount of tactical skill.

As I have noted, Bai Yu does not have the significant tactical skill required to ‘Lead him off’ as Agni did in the scan you have posted. It is unlikely he would know how to feint in a way that allows him to evade Gandharva’s blasts. Furthermore, Gandharva’s Oceanic Ray is stupidly faster than he is (it crossed a mountain range in the time he moved his face slightly forward), so speed equalization should make it undodgeable in the first place.

Conclusion:

Gandharva is stronger than Bai Yu. This has been established and essentially agreed upon by both debaters. Bai Yu’s Aura of Origin is not strong enough to take hits from Gandharva, and thus he is not likely to win in a fight. Bai Yu is similarly unlikely to dodge.

Wanmei Xiyue vs Ronan

On Close Combat

My opponent failed to address questions of Xiyue being able to use her magic in close combat, which were brought up in my previous response.

I have established that Xiyue can use magic within ten paces of her sister. Thus, she is able to use magic in close combat. This was not meaningfully contested. My opponent’s response was that:

Being within ten paces isn't exactly the same thing as currently being engaged in melee combat. As far as I can tell, Xiyue never entered close combat during this fight, thanks to the fact that the fight was a 2v1, and Ai explicitly could not leverage her strength against Xiyue due to her ally. In a 1v1, there's no indication she could use her magic up close.

Which is definitively wrong, as Xiyue was close enough for Ai to attempt to pry her head off in said combat. Xiyue can fight and use magic in close combat.

On Magic strength:

My opponent misunderstood my point. To clarify, I do not believe Xiyue is unable to use Ultimate Class Circles, although the fact that she never has in combat is notable. My point was she was not using Ultimate Class Circles in this scan, due to the impossibility of this confrontation based on the size of Ultimate Class Circle attacks.

If she attempts to bombard Ronan with lower level magic, which is stated to be on the level of artillery , this will do no damage to Ronan, and will lead to her quickly being taken out.

My opponent misunderstood my point, which was that Xiyue’s attacks in that scan(the ‘hundreds of attacks’) were Ultimate Class (nuke level) in strength. I justified such by arguing from the perspective of how the combatants in Xiyue’s fight vs Wanmei Ai would fight, which my opponent did not refute.

On Xiyue’s Defenses

My opponent has repeatedly called Xiyue’s feat of no-selling an Ultimate-Class circle ‘district level’. This is disingenuous, and I would like to clear it up. I have established, and my opponent has tacitly agreed, that Ultimate-Class Circles are nuke level. Supporting this is the fact that Phoenix armor tanked a hit from Wanmei Ai, who’s attacks have been established to be nuke level (by Homunculi Armor scaling in previous arguments).

There's no real proof one way or the other on this, so instead of making wild guesses, I'll bring up the fact that Ronan can prevent matter transmutation and rearrangement to nullify a fefensive power, which seems to be much of how the Phoenix Armor operates, considering it folds to defend Xiyue. This is as direct a feat we will get of him manipulating or not manipulating something similar to the Phoenix Armor, so it should be weighed the most highly in this discussion.

Said manipulation was done on a non-living thing, someone’s power. It does not establish that it would work on Phoenix Armor, which is alive and not a power, but a piece of equipment. Furthermore, it is unlikely that Ronan will use the Universal Weapon in character as anything but a cudgel.

Conclusion:

Xiyue essentially has superior stats to Ronan in every category except physical strength. She can use magic in close combat, which allows her to trivially win this fight with her high rate of fire.

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u/Tarroyn Jun 18 '18 edited Jun 18 '18

Dragon vs Bucky

On Drones:

Secondly, My opponent didn't specify a loadout of drones in their submission post, so it would be best to assume she only has the drones within the named suits.

Specifying a gun should make it obvious that the character would bring the ammo to use the gun, including special ammo (unless specifically noted in stipulations). If I specify batman with his utility belt, it would be ridiculous to argue that batman doesn’t have things he carries in his utility belt. The same goes for the Glaurung Zero and its drones. The Glaurung Zero is a drone carrier, not an anti-Skitter weapon. Thus, its drone assortment should be any drones Dragon has produced.

Secondly, even if this scaling is perfectly accurate, 80 mph is well within human reaction speed. In a speed equalized environment, Bucky wouldn't be hard pressed to dodge these, or at the very least block with his shield.

Blocking Containment foam with his shield would lead to containment foam spreading around his shield and onto his arm, considering how fast it spreads.

Secondly, this assumes that dragon is only using one dragon suit and one containment foam sprayer, and not nine at once, which is what she will be doing in combat.

Hunting Ability:

Even if he was spotted, he could easily simply implement hit and run tactics, since his range is signifigantly longer than him. If he caught onto the fact that it was only the Azazel suits with this functionality, he could easily teleport far enough away, then rapidly eliminate all of them

Bucky’s range is miniscule compared to the 300 mach which is the speed equalization. At any time he’s in range to shoot, the dragon mechs are in range to attack him. Furthermore, Bucky’s rapid sniping feat was done while he was still. While he’s constantly on the run, he won’t be able to shoot nearly as fast.

Firstly, they only seem to be able to timestop the grappling hook, not their entire body. Secondly, they'd have to be able to react to Bucky's weaponry, which is unlikely considering the massive speed of most of his weapons effective from space.

Missiles, which you specified earlier, are fairly slow, considering that he can react to them. Dragon mechs should be able to sense and evade or block them with their grappling hooks. Any of his bigger weapons will be noticed by the Azazel’s sensors, considering the energy levels they would put out.

This is reliant on internet connected video recorders or cameras, of which there are none in Asgard.

All of Dragon’s drones have sensors.

Conclusion:

Bucky is outnumbered to a functionally unbeatable degree here. Basically every machine in Dragon’s possession can incapacitate him with enough containment foam, and she has dozens of them. Bucky’s best evasive tools are dubious at best, considering Dragon’s sensing abilities and portal reopening drones, and his best weaponry can only take down a single mech at a time, if said mech cannot be shielded or blocked with time-stopped grappling hooks.

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u/Tarroyn Jun 18 '18

Closing Statement:

Gandharva vs Bai Yu

It is pretty obvious that Gandharva vastly outstrips Bai Yi in attack power. The question, therefore, is whether scaling Kasak's durability to Gandharva is a valid piece of scaling. Because the two have been hit by the same attack, and one took less damage than the other, I believe the scaling is valid.

Thus, Gandharva is simply stronger than Bai Yu in every aspect, and should win this fight trivially.

Wanmei Xiyue vs Ronan

This fight hinges on the scaling of Ultimate Class Circles to Ultimate-Class sorcery in strength. I believe I have established that Xiyue's sorcery is Ultimate-Class via argumentation of how the characters fought in-character. Furthermore, I believe I have established that close combat does not meaningfully hamper Wanmei Xiyue in her fight against Ronan.

With that decided, Wanmei Xiyue simply have a higher rate of fire than Ronan, and he is unlikely to do anything but attack in the most forward way. Therefore, Wanmei Xiyue should win this fight.

Dragon vs Bucky

Bucky simply does not have the evasive tools to stand up to a prolonged chase. My opponent has only displayed the use of Bucky's teleporter, and I believe I have established that Dragon has ample resources to chase that down, as well as whatever other techniques Bucky might use to evade.

With that decided, Bucky is outnumbered and outgunned to a unwinnable degree, and thus loses handily to Dragon.

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u/GuyOfEvil ​ Jun 18 '18

Closing Statements

Gandharva vs Bai Yu

At the end of this debate, Bai Yu's physicals and damage output are signifigantly better defined than Gandharva's, and where they are defined, Bai Yu easily has an advantage.

My oponment's scaling places Gandharva's strength at roughly half of mountain level, where Bai Yu's Battle Armor durability comfortably sits. My opponent attempts to argue his durability is just over mountain level, but completely ignore the context of Monochrome cutting defensive abilities in half as well as pushing with the weight of a mountain, as well as the context of Anaconda. Bai Yu's durability is clearly capable of withstanding Gandharva's physical strength, and a few of his attacks. The physical strength is key, considering Gandharva is significantly more likely to attack physically due to his low intelligence, a point that was brought up in my first response and never refuted.

The same cannot be said for Gandharva. Durability scaling for Gandharva is lacking heavily, and contains several questionable things such as scaling energy attacks (turrets) to physical force (the mountain crater), claiming an attack that doesn't even destroy a mountain is mountain level, and using an attack a character is greatly hurt by to suggest the power of an attack they are barely hurt by. Due to the vagueness of Gandharva's durability, it cannot be clearly demonstrated he could stand up to Bai Yu's continuous assault.

So if Bai Yu can stand up to Gandharva's physical attacks, which he is more likely to use, and Gandharva cannot provably stand up to Bai Yu's attacks, Bai Yu is the clear winner.

Ronan vs Wanmei Xiyue

Wanmei Xiyue's close combat capabilities are clearly insufficient to stand up to Ronan.

Evidence of Xiyue being capable of using magic in a close combat 1v1 is nonexistent, considering her only battle is a 2v1 in her favor, where the other combatant was explicitly preventing her opponent from using her physical strength. Evidence to the contrary introduced by my opponent relies on an event that was never described as happening in the fight proper. If she is unable to use magic in close combat, she has no method of defeating Ronan in close combat.

Furthermore, she has never been shown using her only method of damaging Ronan, ultimate class circles. The only scan introduced of her being able to do so ignore the context in the very same fight that Ultimate Class Circles are skyscraper sized, and the magic she is using is demonstrably not skyscraper sized. At the very least, she is unlikely to use her only reliable damage method against Ronan.

Meanwhile, Ronan merely needs to continuously hit Xiyue with his hammer to win, and both sides have presented Ronan's hammer to be at least on the same level of Xiyue's armor if not higher, and there has been no doubt cast upon that fact.

Xiyue's methods of damaging Ronan are highly uncertain, whereas Ronan's methods of damaging Xiyue are exceedingly clear and well defined. Ronan is the clear winner in this fight

Bucky vs Dragon

My opponent has not established suitable methods of Dragon being able to defeat Bucky. Using his AoE, his S tier weaponry, and his teleporter, he can easily employ hit and run tactics from a range much further than Dragon can respond from. Even if he were only able to fire one shot every time he teleported, this would take down one drone every time. And as the amount of drones depletes, Dragon will have a harder and harder time tracking Bucky, until Bucyk ultimately depletes all of Dragon's forces.

Dragon's only major counter, the drones that can reopen portals, are both not provably in her loadout, and even if she was capable of bringing them, she is unlikely to due to their extremely specific use. This means Dragon is stuck with weapons that are massively outranged by Bucky's weaponry used in space, and no way to close the distance before he can teleport away again.

With a massive range and mobility advantage, Bucky should take this fight a majority of the time.