r/whowouldwin • u/That_guy_why • Jun 13 '18
Special The Great Debate Season 5 Round 3
Rules
Battle Rules
Speed is to be equalized to a base of Mach 300. Speed boosts via abilities, however, are indeed allowed to make one surpass this base speed threshold. Projectile speed maintains relative velocity compared to the combatant it originates from; a human scaled up to this speed firing a gun means their bullet moves as fast to a Mach 300 character as a bullet does to us as normal humans.
Battleground: 'Your ancestors called it magic; you call it science. I come from a land where they are one and the same thing.' DEFENDER OF THE 9 REALMS, ASGARD!!! A floating realm where the protectors of all realms reside, Asgard is an advanced magical realm full of advanced science and immensely powerful warriors. Armed with the Bifrost gate which enables teleportation anywhere in the 9 realms, sporting numerous mountains and an enormous golden-hued city, Asgard is the pinnacle of civilized society and advancement. For the purposes of this tourney, you can indeed be knocked off Asgard. However, bear in mind that combat proper shall begin in the main courtyard of Asgard before the palace, where Hela slew many Asgardian warriors. Combatants start precisely 10 meters away from their opposition and in a line spaced 10 meters apart from their allies. Every combatant starts each round being 'teleported' into the arena, knowing full well whomever they face down needs to die or be incapacitated in order for they themselves to advance and win and will do so. All combatants begin without any weapons drawn or abilities active, hands idle at their sides, weapons holstered, and the moment they teleport in they can begin combat. All combatants are in-character for the tourney itself.
Submission Rules
- Tier: Must be able to win an unlikely victory, draw/near draw, or likely victory against Yusuke Urameshi in the conditions outlined above. All entrants will be bloodlusted against Yusuke, meaning they will act fully rationally and put down their opponent in the quickest, most efficient manner possible regardless of morality, utilizing any and all possible techniques/tactics/attacks if necessary. The bloodlust does not give any foreknowledge of Yusuke or his capabilities.
Debate Rules
- Rounds will last 4-5 days, hopefully from Monday until Thursday or Friday of each week of the tourney; no time limit, however each user MUST get in two responses or else be disqualified. If one user waits until the very last minute to force this rule to DQ their opponent without any forewarning to their opponents or the tournament supervisors, they will be removed from this tournament, no exceptions.
Current Bracket and Match Style
Brackets Here
Determined by coin flip, the first round was 1v1 Matches, meaning this round shall be:
1v1 Singles Matches
The match-up order is in the comments
Round 2 Ends June 18th, 11:59 EST
Format for each round: both respondents get Intro + 1st Response, then 2nd response, then a 3rd response and closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. EACH RESPONSE MUST BE NO LONGER THAN TWO 10,000 CHARACTER REDDIT COMMENTS LONG.
Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are determined by
submission order (I.E. Your first submission vs. their first submission, and so on)randomized order based on sign up order via an internet list randomizer. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa. First Round will be determined by coin flip.
1
u/Tarroyn Jun 17 '18
Response 2
Bai Yu vs Gandharva
Preface:
This battle is not very complex in terms of strategy. Neither Bai Yu nor Gandharva have a tendency to use intricate strategies in combat, and so it mostly boils down to a discussion of their respective offensive and defensive capabilities. As such, I will be combining my rebuttal section with the discussion of their relative abilities.
Gandharva Damage Output
I agree that Brilith’s closed space is stronger. I am scaling to Maruna’s Crimson Sunshine of Dawn, which he used against Brilith’s closed space and destroyed the mountains with. I scaled the Crimson Sunshine of Dawn to Gandharva’s physical strength using Maruna’s character statement of destroying two average closed spaces and then justified the statement by showing him destroying a closed space with Crimson Sunshine of Dawn.
Bai Yu damage output
This feat is not very quantifiable for scaling purposes. Ah Gou explicitly could not stop the Blood Spear, and it appears he damaged his arm in the process, as opposed to the Bai Yu fight where his monochrome was merely pushed back. Considering the more quantifiable monochrome defensive feats we’ve posted so far, this puts Bai Yu’s aura shockwaves anywhere between destroying a large building and half of a mountain, which is far too large of a gap to assume the highest end of.
Gandharva Durability
That scaling was poor on my part. For a better measure of Gandharva’s durability, Kasak was hurt by earth turrets, which makes him less durable than Gandharva. Kasak tanked a hit that cracked a mountain from Maruna (The grass-like stuff are trees, as evidenced by this scan of Maruna for scale). This puts his durability comfortably around mountain tier.
For Energy attacks in particular, like those of Bai Yu, Gandharva also has durability feats scaling from his fight with Agni. He took a hit from Agni’s Prominence and Agni has vaporized a lake near instantly (size of lake for scale). Gandharva’s durability to energy attacks is fairly significant.
Bai Yu Durability
Bai Yu’s Armor of Origin was broken by Zongheng Tianxia who’s best non-limit break feats are this crater and this explosion. That puts Bai Yu’s durability significantly below Gandharva’s attack strength, whether at close range or with Transcendental Skills.
Bai Yu’s likelihood of dodging
Bai Yu is extremely arrogant. In addition, a lack of emotions is not a guarantee that he will fight optimally, as combat on Phantom Island is incredibly underdeveloped.
Wanmei Xiyue vs Ronan
Preface:
This fight is similar to the previous, in that neither combatant has a specialized combat style that would alter the fight from being a (mostly) straight fight. As such, the fight mostly boils down to a discussion of combat capabilities. Since those were mostly established in the previous arguments, this section will mostly be rebuttals and justification.
True Vampire biology and the Martial Stat
The Martial stat is as you say, a comprehensive evaluation of the combat capability. As such, it is just as viable to assume that her low beginning Martial stat is due to being inexperienced, and that the usual combat capabilities of a True Vampire factor in experience. As such, as she gains Martial (from traits) she becomes experienced to the point where the scaling is valid.
This is true for Xiyue’s physical strength. I will discuss her sorceries in more detail in the next section.
Ultimate Class Circles and their strength Equivalents
In the AGG:CORE universe, Ultimate-class circles are the strongest weapon a non-sorcerer can use. Wanmei Xiyue, being a sorcerer, uses sorcery instead, as it has a greater degree of versatility than circle magic.
Arguments supporting Xiyue’s magic being equivalent to Ultimate-Class circles:
Wanmei Ai no-sells moderate amounts of high class magic. She also considers Wanmei Xiyue the highest threat. If Xiyue’s attacks were ineffective, she wouldn’t be considered the highest threat.
Wanmei Xiyue’s attacks cancel out Wanmei Ai’s attacks. If she was using weaker attacks, that would not be the case. Wanmei Ai’s attack strength is Ultimate-Class, as she was the one who used the Ultimate-Class circle. It is absurd to believe she would use a weaker attack in combat when the previous attack was no-sold.
The Narrator calls the two True Vampires equals. Since he had previously said she was not equal in physical strength, but magic was her forte, it is very likely that Xiyue can use Ultimate-Class magic.
Wanmei Ai striking strength
The suits groan in protest against the strikes. The suits can last a few moments in combat. ‘No difficulty’ is not the descriptor I would use for that.
Wanmei Xiyue’s Volume of Fire
The quote says ‘The amount was beyond your reckoning’. That implies that the volume of fire was significant. It was followed by ‘Hundreds of beams…’ which serves to quantify the amount of shots fired. The order of this phrasing implies that the feat itself is not hyperbolic, but rather the best estimate the narrator could give.
Ronan’s Universal Weapon
The shield I discussed in my first post, and noted that it is significantly below the strength of Xiyue’s attacks. The absorption he is fairly unlikely to do in character. Most of the time, he’ll just use the weapon as a cudgel, but absorption specifically he is especially unlikely to use, as in other fights against the human torch, he used energy blasts and deoxygenization. In addition, he needs to aim the hammer to absorb an attack, a feat which is difficult to do on many thin beams of energy.
Both of Ronan’s deconstruction feats have been on metals. The Phoenix Armor is not made of metal, or at the very least a metal he’s manipulated.
In addition, the organic/inorganic divide is unlikely in the first place, given the materials he’s manipulated. He’s manipulated a sword, which is likely to contain some amount of iron. If that is the case, he could manipulate the iron in someone’s body so that he could affect biological beings. The same goes for any of the other elements within Stellaris’ suit or the sword. With that taken into consideration, it is more likely that Ronan simply can’t manipulate beings with souls.