r/whowouldwin • u/xWolfpaladin ​ • Aug 03 '18

Special Clash of Titans - Round 1

The Clash of Titans

Tier Setter

Any participant can submit either:

3 entrees that can achieve a Unlikely Victory - Likely Victory against bloodlusted Iron Fist (each entrant should be able to 1v1 iron fist)

OR

1 entree that can achieve a Unlikely Victory - Likely Victory against bloodlusted Luke Cage

Both of these combatants will be using Tournament Specific RTs that will be provided, the goal being to use a high-end version of these characters that leave as little interpretation to entrants as possible.

Here are the Tournament specific RTs

Specifics

Each participant can submit a team of 3 Iron Fist Tier Characters AND/OR 1 Luke Cage Tier Character. You can choose to submit only 1 of these options, so submitting only 1 Luke Cage, or submit characters fitting both descriptions. How this works is that you private message a judge before the round starts telling them whether you want to use your 3 Iron Fists or your 1 Luke Cage in the upcoming round, and then that will be kept secret until the round goes up. If you do not message a judge before the round goes up, then it will be decided for you by coin flip.

Battle rules

Speed will be equalized to a base of 257 meters per second (mach .75). Reactions are equalized to 5 milliseconds. However, speed boosts by character abilities are allowed. Projectiles are relative in speed to the character.

Arena

Its the most densely populated city in North America, it's where Frank Sinatra wants to go, you know it as the Big apple. It's New York City. Characters start 514 meters apart. Your characters know that they have to defeat their opponent to leave the city. The only way your characters can defeat there opponents is by killing or incapacitating them - BFR is not an option.

For the purpose of this tournament, assume there are no other people in NYC.

Debate Rules

If either you or your opponent is using a Luke cage tier Character, then you both are limited to 2 comments of 10k characters for each response, and have 3 main responses. If both participants are using the 3 Iron fist tier character then you are both limited to 3 comments of 10k characters, and have 3 main responses.

The exact format will be Intro/First Response/Second Response/Third Response/Conclusion.

Your intro should give us a good idea of the power level of your characters, which ones you're using, and who they are. Your conclusion should sum up arguments you've already brought forth.

A conclusion may be submitted any time after both third responses have been done.

Victory Conditions

Winning a match will be determined by a council of judges including myself, u/epizestro, and u/he-man69.

Judges won't judge on their preconceived notions of how strong the characters are, but rather on how well you argue them to win

How long is this round?

Round 1 will last 5 days, from August 2nd to August 7th, 12pm est.

However, if you are unable to submit a response in time for the deadline, due to real life concerns or similar, please request an extension from a judge.

OOT calling during the Tournament Proper

As this is a debate tournament, it would be a bit silly to not be allowed to debate things. As such your debate skills will be put to the test if or when your Opponent calls your characters OOT during the Rounds. Simply debate better than your opponent and your characters will stay in the tournament.

OOT arguments in the tournament proper will be handled as a separate decision from the main judgements. How this works is that, should you argue OOT, whether you were successful will be decided by a judge vote, and then the judgements will proceed taking the result of the vote into account.

Miscellaneous Rules.

  • There will be an unbreakable sphere around the arena, and as such no one can enter or leave. You cannot teleport outside the dome (Characters like Nightcrawler will be allowed to teleport, but cannot actually exit the dome). There is no possible way for a character to enter or leave.

  • The fights start in the exact center of NYC with opposing teams starting 500 meters away from each other, and characters on the same team will start 10 meters away from their teammates.

  • All weapons begin holstered, however all draw feats scale to movement speed.

  • The battles will start at high noon unless stipulated otherwise

  • For something to count as incapacitatation it would need to last for 3 minutes.

  • Characters are in-character for the actual tournament

  • Characters in a 3v1 are lined up as they are submitted. 1v1s will be randomized.

  • You must give your opponent a chance to get two responses in. You cannot purposefully delay a response to deprive your opponent of one.

  • All rules are subject to judge discretion.

Round 1

Bracket

Randomized 1v1 Order

If your team entirely consists of Iron Fist tiers, and the enemy does as well, you will be split into 3 1v1s.

If either have a Luke Cage tier, or two Luke tiers, it will be a 1v3 or 1v1.

1v3

2v1

3v2

Round 1 Matchups

Due to the seeding and the amount of matchups, some entrants will not be in the tournament until Round 2.

  • Coconut-Crab vs Pirate-King-Ace

1 v 3

  • JedidahohLord vs HighSlayerRalton

3 v 1

  • Smurphy vs Mikhailnikolaievitch

1 v 3

  • Also-Ameraa vs Fj668

1 v 1

  • ShinyBreloom vs EmbraceAllDeath

1 v 1

Tribunal for those interested

15 Upvotes

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u/EmbraceAllDeath ​ Aug 05 '18

Response 2, Part 2

My Rebuttal

If you're going to make a serious OOT claim, you should probably include comparisons between Sagara's feats and Luke Cage to buttress your claim. But to pre-empt that line of argument, I'll claim that Sagara's Violet Rain and Bloody Line (I accidentally called it Red Line in the first response) are not terribly overpowered compared to Luke Cage destroying a large stone golem with a punch. Bloody Line is also balanced in that it has a fairly short range ( as in a couple of meters., and has only been used to cut off God Kubera's arm so far. Bloody Line is also dependent on where the user look, which is fairly similar to Dio's eye lasers, and hence can be aim-dodged if Dio is as competent a fighter as you claim. I agree that Sagara won't use those initially in the fight, as she hasn’t opened with them so far, but is more likely to do so as the fight goes on.

My Response 1

Flesh Buds would seem to be the most potent form of mind control in this encounter, but alas, they fail to swing the fight. For one, Dio's feats have not shown him using the flesh buds in combat, where he implants his cells to control opponents, which suggests that he would not use it in combat. 2nd, even if Dio were somehow able to get the bud in Sagara's head, she could likely get rid of it quickly by becoming male and then using King of Violet Mist to make his body intangible so that the flesh bud falls out. , and the intangibility would also protect him from being hurt until he can move away

Your Response 1

He's still capable of making them, and there's nothing stopping him from doing that if he figures it out in time. I'll let that be, but with Dios intelligence I highly doubt he won't resort to that.

My Rebuttal

Your argument that Dio would be able to use flesh buds in combat is incredibly speculative and almost baseless. There's no timelime for how long the flesh buds take to get made. Addditionaly, if the RT says that it requires incredible precision to remove, why wouldn't it also require incredible precision to implant. More importantly, Dio hasn't used his flesh buds in combat, which suggests that his intelligence tells him that the flesh buds wouldn't be viable in combat.

My Response 1

The World is Dio's main selling point, allowing him to freeze time for 9 seconds every 10-20seconds, and granting him an additional body to fight with. Despite this time imbalance, Sagara can fight back as especially with the speed and strength boost provided by her male form.

The World is Stand, which the RT suggests can only be seen by other stand users. I postulate that Sagara can see and attack The World for a couple reasons. For one, her second Unknown Transcendental summons Urvasi to fight for her, making her akin to a stand user. 2ndly, Stands are a reflection of one's spirit. Sagara is Nastika Sura, and Gandharva, another Nastika Sura, was able to smash 100 million souls. This suggests that as Nastika Sura, Sagara can attack and see Dio's stand as spirts are akin to souls which Sagara can likely attack.

Your Response 1

You're making a lot of assumptions here, but fine, I'll let the "see spirits" slide since I've argued that elsewhere. Nonetheless Dio is still strong enough to use this ability offensively and I there is no evidence they can move in stopped time. Not only that, but Dio severely overwhelms the opponent.

My Rebuttal

It would help if you specified how Dio uses The World offensively, since I argued how Sagara can counter The World in the speed boost section. I don't make any claim that Sagara can move in stopped time, but that doesn't discount the fact that Sagara will be able to outspeed Dio in her male form outside of time stops.

My Response 1

With regards to The World's physical capabilities, they are not significantly different from Dio, and will not trouble Sagara in a physical encounter. For one, The World's durability is akin to a glass cannon, as its only durability feat is matching Star Platinum's diamond-busting fists. However, diamond busting is not terribly impressive, considering that simple hammers can break diamonds, and hence the World will succumb easily to Sagara's stone pillar busting feats. This lack of durability even poses as a weakness to Dio due to the fact that damage to The World transfers to Dio, as it allows for Sagara to easily take out a couple limbs from Dio by beating up The World, or even vaporize The World with her projectiles and kill Dio. The World's strength feats pose more of a problem, being stronger than Dio, but against fail to phase Sagara due to the fact that they rely on the same striking feats that don't overcome Sagara's regen.

Your Response 1

Simple hammers, also you're not accounting for how large the diamond actually is or how strong the fist is in comparison to the diamond.. Also if it's fists we're talking about you'd have to take in the surface area of the diamond as well as the speed/power output of the fist

My Rebuttal

Lets look at the actual feat for Star Platinum's diamond busting strikes which compare to The World's durability. The scan is based on a character statement where Star platinum breaks a human-sized tooth. The user of the tooth states:

These teeth are as hard as diamonds, you'll never break them!

This statement means that the impressiveness of the feat depends on the veracity of the character statement. However, there are a couple reasons to doubt the tooth-owner. For one, the character statement is from an opponent of Star Platinum who wants Star Platinum to surrender to his attacks, which gives the impression that the narrator could be exaggerating. Secondly, the measure of breaking diamonds is toughness not hardness. This not only means that breaking the tooth means nothing when saying that it's as hard as diamond, it shows that the narrator has no idea what's he talking about, lending credibility to the idea that the narrator is exaggerating about the tooth by comparing it to diamond. The character statement then suggests that the tooth has no known durability. But even if we to compare the tooth's structure to a diamond's structure, it would seem that the surface area, speed, and output of the fist would be irrelevant. Why? Because the structure of a diamond is easy to crack . Diamonds, because they are not compact of carbon bonds, tend to have fault lines that can crack the diamond easily. The cracking is similar to how a wood plank will break with a strike easily if a little fissure is already present. Because the fault lines are already present, the size of the tooth does not make the diamond-busting feat more impressive as Star Platinum is exploiting pre-existing fissures. Additionally, because the damage is based on a fissure, the diamond only needs force sufficient to open it a little in order to create large cracks. In any case, the diamond-busting fists that The World tanks are not impressive, and Sagara can exploit that lack of durability to hurt Dio.

My Response 1

The World's time stopping is probably the greatest threat to Sagara, giving Dio the chance to lay the hurt on her. However, Dio's utility with The World is too flawed to take her down before she stops jobbing. For one, Dio mainly uses timestops defensively, using them to escape attacks and dodge projectiles, which is the wrong move against an opponent who will get stronger when she starts to become serious. In fact, the only offensive use of time stops was using it to punch an opponent only once, which is not enough to put Sagara out of commission, who can regenerate from damage afterwards.

Your Response 1

With his opponents using Hamon or other stand of course he has to use it defensively, how else could he use it?

My Rebuttal

The argument here is more along the line of saying that The World doesn't help Dio win the fight against Sagara, but only prolongs his survival during the fight. If Dio mainly uses it defensively, then he wouldn't able to "completely ruin Sagara" while using the World, which is a personality weakness that prevents Dio from winning.

Overview for why Sagara wins

  • Sagara has better capabilities than Dio in every stat possible

  • Sagara has better endurance for the fight overall, as " Sagara has the edge in regenerative consistency " (in your words) and additionally will job less as the fight goes on and resort to projectiles that can end Dio (namely unknown transcendental 1, the mountain crater projectile, as well as her other projectiles) or breaking Dio's body physically, which will weakened due to Dio's regeneration requiring blood.

  • Dio does not have the killer instinct to end Sagara before the she becomes bored and becomes more serious to win the fight.

  • there is not a thorough explanation or scenario for how Dio wins that responds to my arguments, while Sagara can win be overwhelming Dio or the World over time with physical strikes and Bloody Line or vaporizing one of the two with Unknown Transcendental 1 or Violet Rain

  • When Sagara gets serious, her male transformation allows her to beat up Dio faster and with greater strength, and is functionally a better speed boost than The World because Dio doesn't use The World offensively and has only used it when attacking to land in only one punch, whereas Sagara will use her extra speed between time stops to beat up Dio/TheWorld and prevent them from dodging his strikes.

1

u/ShinyBreloom2323 ​ Aug 06 '18

Second Response

Before I go into this, I would also like to say my character is not OOT either, as Dio has no other option to hit Cage except for a risky and very painful game of attrition. Apart from freezing all of his attacks are worthless, and heat does not penetrate Luke's skin. Freezing his only ticket out needs to be applied fast and it's doubtful that would work considering you need to take the heat out of a person's body, and Cage's skin seems to block that regardless.

I will not be covering Freezing nor Hypnosis as you've made a fair argument.

However DIO can fly., also if you are to assume Dio cannot drink her blood, then it's likely her minion could be manipulated by Dio's Biological Manipulation, and her time-stop counter will be largely nullified.

Your Rebuttal

Your argument that Dio would be able to use flesh buds in combat is incredibly speculative and almost baseless. There's no timeline for how long the flesh buds take to get made. Additionally, if the RT says that it requires incredible precision to remove, why wouldn't it also require incredible precision to implant. More importantly, Dio hasn't used his flesh buds in combat, which suggests that his intelligence tells him that the flesh buds wouldn't be viable in combat.

I mentioned how Sagara can overwhelm Dio's durability in the third paragraph under the Strength and Durability section. There's not a warrant articulated for why Sagara wouldn't be able to overwhelm Dio's durability and regen here.

My response:

You also made several assumptions here, that Dio not using flesh buds is an issue of both time, and that Dio does not have the time nor precision to create them. I would argue that it's a case of him never needing to use them, not so that he cannot. If necessary Dio could use it, and it likely hinges the difference between victory or defeat. Just because there's no timeline does not mean they take forever, we also have no evidence of that. These two tie into another in that your

Real-life bullets and shrapnel can need accuracy to remove, ir else the patient can risk death.

The last part again is based on the opponent he fights.

Your Rebuttal

Those durabilities are not the same, but Dio's dismembering feat doesn't qualify exactly as piercing, as it involves bruising the neck with his hand enough so that the hand slides through. The fact that Sagara does not bruise after falling down a couple stories suggests that Dio would not be able delimb Sagara with strikes from his hand because the force required to punch through someone's neck is lower than the force incurred after falling several stories. And in any case, the decapitation feat doesn't damage Sagara in a way that she can't recover from.

Bruising from several stories is falling from varying heights into a mostly flat ground with surface area to absorb. Bruising from a hand is a considerably lower surface area and is an incredible force. Not to mention Dio has deflected projectiles with the power to blow off the hood of a car before with the very same hands, so I highly doubt the attack would be tanked since he can deflect the same attacks with a greater opposing force, which you yourself acknowledged.

I acknowledged how Sagara responds to Za Warudo in the first paragraph of Strength and Durability as well as in the entire Speed Boost sections. Sagara mainly needs to survive the first Za Warudo, as if she doesn, she will realize that Dio has a skill that allows him to move incredibility fast and deal a good amount of damage for a couple of seconds, and transform into male form to even the odds. Sagara's male transformation constitutes a significant speed boost that allowed her to move behind an opponent before she could react when she and that opponent were matched in speed beforehand. This in effect gives Sagara a weaker time-stop that lasts longer that would allow Sagara to beat up Dio over time. Za Warudo hence would mainly matter if it allowed Dio to knock out Sagara quickly. That is not the case, as Dio's personality is horrible at using the World. As I mentioned in the previous response, Dio mainly uses Za Warudo to evade attacks, and during the only Dio used it offensively, he only landed in one strike, which is not enough to overcome Sagara's limb-regenerating recovery. On the other hand, Sagara is perfectly happy to use her male form to deal pain to Dio, as Sagara did when he knocked Kubera Leez into the wall. Dio is simply not ruthless enough to use his speed boost effectively compared to Sagara. Additionally, addressed the comment about taking Sagara's blood in the 3rd paragraph under Strength and Durability. To reiterate- there is no scan or proof that Dio can drink anything other than human blood, and would not be able to consume Sagara's Sura blood. Sagara's blood is literally purple as she is an Ananta Sura.

Dio is fighting a Joestar for most of his fights. He'll likely end it quick if not. Also you're betting she can realize these abilities alone and Dio can't realize her abilities either.

Here. Dio is brutal, he poses and fucks around but he is by no means lacking in brutality.

He's been FTE to enhanced humans, so your point about speed says she can keep up but not overwhelm

He can regenerate in seconds, and you're making yet another assumption that her blood is either toxic or unusable. He can just drink that blood and carry on regenerating, as it's very unlikely that the blood has special properties which stop Dio,

Your Rebuttal: Your claim about piercing durability > brute force won't stop Sagara from breaking Dio's bones, as piercing durability refers more to the outside layer of Dio resisting severing, whereas the momentum from blunt force can disrupt the bone and cartilage holding together Dio's body. In any case, your distinction would only matter if you're trying to suggest that Dio's piercing durability gives him blunt force durability. However, Dio doesn't have decent piercing durability feats, as most of the ones listed in the RT are regeneration feats after being pierced, such as recovering from bullets and projectiles. If you have a feat that indicates that Dio can resist Sagara's car denting and stone wall breaking strikes, now would be a good time to show it.

He'll likely regenerate from it.

All it takes is one sip and he's back to top condition.

Your Rebuttal: The point here is more that Sagara is not really the type of person to grant mercy, and wouldn't allow Dio to regenerate without blood. While Dio's charisma is pretty good, I don't think it would allow him to talk-no-jutsu into Sagara giving him a "fair fight" by allowing him to regenerate, unless you have a scan showing otherwise.

Aight, that's completely fair, I'd just say not out of the question entirely.

This statement means that the impressiveness of the feat depends on the veracity of the character statement. However, there are a couple reasons to doubt the tooth-owner. For one, the character statement is from an opponent of Star Platinum who wants Star Platinum to surrender to his attacks, which gives the impression that the narrator could be exaggerating. Secondly, the measure of breaking diamonds is toughness not hardness. This not only means that breaking the tooth means nothing when saying that it's as hard as diamond, it shows that the narrator has no idea what's he talking about, lending credibility to the idea that the narrator is exaggerating about the tooth by comparing it to diamond. The character statement then suggests that the tooth has no known durability. But even if we to compare the tooth's structure to a diamond's structure, it would seem that the surface area, speed, and output of the fist would be irrelevant. Why? Because the structure of a diamond is easy to crack . Diamonds, because they are not compact of carbon bonds, tend to have fault lines that can crack the diamond easily. The cracking is similar to how a wood plank will break with a strike easily if a little fissure is already present. Because the fault lines are already present, the size of the tooth does not make the diamond-busting feat more impressive as Star Platinum is exploiting pre-existing fissures. Additionally, because the damage is based on a fissure, the diamond only needs force sufficient to open it a little in order to create large cracks. In any case, the diamond-busting fists that The World tanks are not impressive, and Sagara can exploit that lack of durability to hurt Dio.

Alright, it's hard, not tough. That being said at the point in the scan the mouth has already chomped down and you're not accounting for the pressure/bite force of the attack.

Overview for why Dio can win.

  • Sagara edges in regeneration, but Dio won't hold back of someone he doesn't know, and if he does know he'll try to use charisma.

  • Dio can modify her servant and there's nothing to say he can't fight it off since it's a zombie. Failing that, he'll try and murder as quick;y as possible.

  • Time-stop+Flight is something he'll try a lot, each sip of her blood makes his time stop more potent

1

u/EmbraceAllDeath ​ Aug 07 '18

Response 3 Part 1

Rebuttals

However DIO can fly

The scan you have shows Dio leaping off of The World after he flies, it doesn't show Dio flying himself. And in any case, Sagara can counter Dio flying by jumping high on to buildings, similar to how she jumped onto Lorraine's flying car that was multiple meters in the air. Dio also doesn't gain any advantage by flying aside from recovery, as the only projectile he has, lasers eyes, only has a demonstrated range of a couple of meters. And even if Dio can fly, Sagara can still tag him with her Violet Rain or Unknown Transcendental 1 projectiles which are capable of vaporizing Dio.

it's likely her minion could be manipulated by Dio's Biological Manipulation The scan shows a dog fused with a human head before any sort of fighting. This is a prep feat, not a combat feat. Additionally, Dio wouldn't know have medical knowledge about Suras to biologically manipulate them, especially so in combat, which he has never done before.

and her time-stop counter will be largely nullified.

I listed Sagara's male form as a speed boost (time stop counter) that is superior to Dio's time stop, so I'm not sure how her minion being modified is relevant here.

You also made several assumptions here, that Dio not using flesh buds is an issue of both time, and that Dio does not have the time nor precision to create them. I would argue that it's a case of him never needing to use them, not so that he cannot. If necessary Dio could use it, and it likely hinges the difference between victory or defeat. Just because there's no timeline does not mean they take forever, we also have no evidence of that.

Presumption flows against Dio when determining whether he can use flesh buds or not. Since it's your attack, you need to demonstrate that Dio can use flesh buds in combat. Otherwise it's just a prep feat, and not relevant to 1 v1 combat; to say otherwise borders on NLF. Also my various points of using King of Toxic Mist to remove the flesh buds via intangibility or using mind control to free herself of potential mind control from the flesh buds has not been answered.

These two tie into another in that your Real-life bullets and shrapnel can need accuracy to remove, ir else the patient can risk death.The last part again is based on the opponent he fights.

I'm confused as to what argument you're making here.

Bruising from several stories is falling from varying heights into a mostly flat ground with surface area to absorb. Bruising from a hand is a considerably lower surface area and is an incredible force. Not to mention Dio has deflected projectiles with the power to blow off the hood of a car before with the very same hands, so I highly doubt the attack would be tanked since he can deflect the same attacks with a greater opposing force, which you yourself acknowledged.

The ground's surface area has no relevance, as the durability from falling comes from the falling person's impulse on the ground creating an equal and opposite force that reverberates through the person's body at the point of contact; the person is absorbing the force. Bruising with a hand uses the same point of contact as the ground does when imparting a force onto a falling person. Deflecting the projectiles also does not translate cleaning into having the force to blow off the hood of a car, as it was multiple projectiles that have the force to break off the door of a car, whereas when Dio was deflecting each projectile, he deflected each individual projectile with his speed, which means the force he used to deflect the bullets is less than the force used to break off the door of the car. In short, male Sagara's falling durability from multiple stories is at least equivalent to the force requires to break off the door of car, and Dio's feat of deflecting bullets is less impressive than the force used to break a door off a car. Hence, male Sagara can probably tank Dio's blows. And even in absence of the falling durability feat, female Sagara is able to causally break stone walls and dent car doors, which indicates that she can handle the blowback from strikes as strong as those strikes, which suggests that she could tank the force required to blow back a car door which is comparable.

Dio is fighting a Joestar for most of his fights. He'll likely end it quick if not.

The notion that Dio treats some enemies differently than others was not mentioned in the RT, and outside the scope of the submission. Hence, we should take into consideration's Dio's personality anti-feats when looking at the fight against Sagara, as to do so otherwise would treat the submission that went throught Tribunal (and was kosher) unfairly by overstating Dio's feats beyond what was suggested in Tribunal.

Also you're betting she can realize these abilities alone and Dio can't realize her abilities either.

Sagara has lived for billions of years in a world where a time-altering and speed abilities are common, such as Hoti Visnu, a spell that can reverse the flow of time in an environment, as it does here when it restores a forest back to life after it was frozen. Hence if time stops and it appears that Sagara's enemy has damaged her more or moves to another place without her realizing, she would assume that Dio has some sort of teleportation or speed ability, and adjust her speed accordingly. I'm not sure what you mean by Dio not recognizing her abilities, since none of them require any tricks.

Here. Dio is brutal

My point about Dio's brutality is that he doesn't use his timestop brutally. He generally uses it to get out of projectiles and has used it only once to launce one attack.

He's been FTE to enhanced humans, so your point about speed says she can keep up but not overwhelm

This is speed equalized, and we're talking about speed boosts here. When Dio uses his speed boost (Time stop), Sagara can't move obviously. What I'm saying is that when Sagara transform to be male, the speed boost will allow Sagara to outspeed Dio independent of his normal speed capabilities.

He can regenerate in seconds

The scan shows him healing when JoJo explicitly allows him to do so for 5 seconds. Sagara wouldn't care about letting him have time to regenerate.

and you're making yet another assumption that her blood is either toxic or unusable. He can just drink that blood and carry on regenerating, as it's very unlikely that the blood has special properties which stop Dio,

Dio only has feats using human blood to regenerate, which is similar to how humans normally can only take human blood. Taking this comparison further, it is extremely likely Dio won't be able to take Sagara's blood, considering the present-day failure of xenotransfusion due to incompatibility between species and blood types; Dio could even potentially die from drinking Sagara's blood as other humans have when taking in animal blood. Furthermore, one of the principal functions of blood is the carry oxygen, whereas Sagara can survive in space and hence does not need to breathe, which suggests that Sagara;s blood would not provide the same sustenance functions as the type of blood Dio drinks, and would not aid his recovery. Also, while I didn't mention it earlier, Dio's only feats to drinking blood are from helpless bystanders- he only drank blood from a random woman and an infirm Joseph Joestar. Hence even if we were to assume that he could drink Sagara's blood and gain sustenance to regenerate from it, he doesn't have the agility to drink blood from opponents who are actively fighting him; this is especially true because Dio mainly needs blood when he needs to regenerate from being injured, which puts him in a bad place to steal blood from Sagara. But more importantly, even if Dio drinks the blood, Sagara can regenerate her blood, which will make the blood that Dio's consumed disappear and unexpectedly weaken him and cut off his regen.

He'll likely regenerate from it. All it takes is one sip and he's back to top condition.

… if he has blood. Which I just covered. In any case, you concede that Sagara's strike will damage Dio.

Aight, that's completely fair, I'd just say not out of the question entirely.

So negligible. In any case, Sagara has gathered her own band of followers and managed to convince the rivals of her Ananta Clan for billions of years, the Garuda Clan, to ally with her, so it's not like she's lacking in charisma.

Alright, it's hard, not tough. That being said at the point in the scan the mouth has already chomped down and you're not accounting for the pressure/bite force of the attack.

The strength to lift the tooth refers to lifting strength, not the striking strength that Dio would have endured from Star Platinum has faced. In any case, the feat doesn't show Star platinum punching against the crushing by the teetch, but rather shows Star Platinum slipping behind the crushing teeth and destroying them with multiple consecutive punches. Hence, the strikes that The World faced from Star Platinum weren't that strong, and Sagara's stone wall breaking and car denting strikes certainly outclass destroying large teeth with multiple strikes as opposed to Sagara's single strikes.

1

u/EmbraceAllDeath ​ Aug 07 '18

Response 3, Part 2

Overview for why Dio can win.

Sagara edges in regeneration, but Dio won't hold back of someone he doesn't know, and if he does know he'll try to use charisma.

Again, in order to win this fight, Dio need to beat Sagara before she stops jobbing and uses more powerful attack like Violet Rain and Unknown Transcendental 1 and her male form. The only way for Dio to do that is to overwhelm her regeneration with Dio's time stop, and the feats show that Dio holds back his offensive attacks when time stopping which is the relevant factor overall. Charisma is a non-factor in combat unless it resembles mind control.

Dio can modify her servant and there's nothing to say he can't fight it off since it's a zombie. Failing that, he'll try and murder as quick;y as possible.

Answered this, but even if Dio manages to steal Urvasi in the particular scenario that she summons him, Sagara can simply stop feeding vigor to maintain Urvasi's presence in the human world, since the body is of Urvasi is more a manifestation of Sagara's vigor than a reanimated corpse. Also the particular feat you show for zombie modficiation doesn't indicate mind control, since he crushes the human-dog at the beginning of the scan. Additionally, saying that he can simply beat Urvasi because he's a zombie is not sufficient- you need to establish how Dio stops a zombie who is capable of matching swords with a god who has punched heads off of people's bodies and can encase people in ice with his ice generation.

Time-stop+Flight is something he'll try a lot, each sip of her blood makes his time stop more potent

How does time-stop and flight help Dio, outside from potentially allowing him to avoid attacks? You also mention blood making his time stop more potent, but to what end? How does Dio demonstrate that he can use his timestop in a manner that overcomes Sagara's regeneration and put him out of commission? Abilities in a fight aren't enough, what's important is how those abilities lead to victory.

Overarching points that need to be answered

  • Dio has no answer for Sagara's Violet Rain and Unknown Transcendental 1 projectiles, which respectively can cleave cleanly through stone pillars and make a mountain-sized crater. Each attack can vaporize Dio beyond his regeneration, and Dio nor the World don't have a durability feat to suggest that they can withstand those blasts. Similar arguments can be made for Sagara's physical strikes. On the flipside, Dio's ability to damage Sagara is dubious, aside from Dio's strikes against female Sagara, but even then Dio doesn't have a line of attack to overcome Sagara's regeneration before she decides to use her more powerful male form.

  • Also given that Dio has no answer for these attacks, and that Dio's regeneration is inferior to Sagara (he can barely break even if you make several generous assumption about his blood sucking), it needs to be demonstrated how Dio knocks out Sagara before fighting a battle of endurance that he falls on the losing side of, especially considering that Sagara will use her better projectiles against Dio after a while and her male transformation which grants her greater strength and durability and most importantly speed to help Sagara beat up and overwhelm Dio physically in between time stops.

  • On a more fundamental level, it hasn't been established why Dio is superior to Sagara, and your arguments are mostly defensive and tread mainly on how Dio pulls even in several ways. Your arguments about Dio drinking blood or escaping Sagara's attacks with flying are merely arguments that explain how Dio can prolong his suffering, not why he can win against Sagara decisively. Coming out of response two , the only serious way you suggest Dio can beat Sagara are flesh buds, while making vague allusions to beating up Sagara while using Time Stop.

Ways Sagara wins

  • Dio drinks Sagara's blood, and dies because non-human blood is toxic to humans

  • Sagara in female form beats up Dio, and/or the world, making him lose a limb. Dio uses him time-stop to recover and maybe take out one of Sagara's limbs with a strike. Sagara then realizes that she lost a limb to Dio due to some unknown ability, changes to male form and uses King of Toxic Mist to gain extra regeneration. This allows Sagara to resist Dio's strikes even during a time-stop, and overwhelm Dio and/or the World with physicial strikes after he finishes using King of Toxic Mist.

  • Sagara decides to use Violet Rain against Dio. He dodges a couple of the first projectiles, with luck, but gets vaporized.

  • Dio flies by riding The World to get away from Sagara to avoid getting struck during a Time Stop, and then time resumes. Sagara, frustrated with Dio's dodging, uses Unknown Transcendental 1 against, Dio, which he finds impossible to avoid due to the size of the projectile (mini-mountain-sized), and gets vaporized.

  • Dio uses the World, and before he initiates a time stop (since nothing threatening has occurred yet), Sagara strikes The World with a shocking force that is capable of breaking stone walls and denting cars, that is more than the barrage of tooth-breaking strikes that The World has dealt with. Dio then tries to suck Sagara's blood (but does not use timestop, because Dio has not demonstrated the capability of using The World while severely injured). He fails though as he is injured, and gets beaten back by Sagara's strikes, and even has his head cut off. Dio then tries to suffocate Sagara, but she does not care because she doesn't need oxygen. To get rid of the pest, Sagara summons Urvasi to knock Dio off her, and subsequently freeze Dio so that she can claim her victory.

  • Sagara strikes at Dio, but misses. She then uses Bloody Line to cut Dio, which manage to cut off Dio's arm. He uses time stop, and for fun, he uses his laser eyes (which has never used in conjunction with time stop) to cut off Sagara's arm. The time stop finishes, and both try to regenerate. Sagara regenerates, while Dio doesn't, and the latter tries to acquire Sagara's blood. She beats him, however, since Sagara's strikes are stronger since they they dent cars and break stone walls while Dio's strikes only break bodies and knock down car doors, and Dio is of course down an arm against Sagara.

  • Dio feeling antsy, tries to plant a flesh bud against Kim. However, in his moment of tenseness, he realizes that he can only prepare flesh buds with ahead of time while his mind is cleared, the only extent to which his feats show him implanting flesh buds. While Dio fumbles, Sagara decides to summon Urvasi and have him slice up Dio, which he does. Sagara then crushes Dio's head under her foot and wins.

  • and so on…