r/whowouldwin • u/xWolfpaladin ​ • Dec 12 '18

Event The Trial of Champions - Round 1

My personal apologies for this round going up later than I intended. Judgements will be slightly shorter to compensate.

Edit: Each response can be a maximum of 2 10,000 character comments, which covers all 3 characters.

Continuing in the tradition of a debate oriented tournament, The Trial of Champions is an off-season, user-run tournament in the same style of the Great Debate. Strategizing your team, formulating why your entrants would win, and debating skill will all be important skills for this tournament.

Trial of Champions Tribunal link

Respect ToC!Hulk

Round will last from 12/12/18 to 12/16/18, with the post being locked on 12:01 am this monday (Central).

Rules

Battle Rules

  • Combatants cannot willingly target or hurt their own team members, but can hurt their own team members via collateral/BFR/etc. If you're running Batman and Joker, they won't fight, but if Joker uses his "blow up with the power of 10 suns" gadget, he'll kill his team.

  • All combatants will have their reaction time equalized to 10 milliseconds, with their base movement/running speed being equal to 70 mph. They will start about five relative seconds away, or .25 seconds, or 25 feet. Other methods of transportation will scale relatively to 70 mph - if you can run at 10 m/s, and fly at 20 m/s, then you'll be 140 mph in the tournament.

    • Speed boosts are still allowed, and stipulations for how they function/if you're allowing them are appreciated. For example, a character with a x10 reaction boost would be 1 ms in this tournament.

  • Projectiles will scale relatively, based on reaction speed and how fast your character perceives in their unequalized state. If Bullet-Dodge Jones and Neo are shooting at each other, both can dodge shots. If John Wick shoots Neo, Neo cannot dodge. And so on and so forth.

  • All combatants must be in tier through the Unlikely - Likely Victory metric. While combatants may be tribunaled for being under tier, they cannot be disqualified mid-tournament for being under tier. However, your characters can be considered out of tier at any time, including if your opponent does not request an OOT review, and you merely overplay your characters. If you're relying on a character being considered OOT to win, however, please request a review. I'm not omnipresent, not yet.

  • Every combatant starts each round being 'teleported' into the arena, knowing full well whomever they face down needs to die or be incapacitated in order for they themselves to advance and win and will do so.

  • All combatants begin without any weapons drawn or abilities active, hands idle at their sides, and the moment they teleport in they can begin combat. All combatants are in-character for the tourney itself. Characters with holsters or similar will begin with their weapons holstered, characters with weapons that cannot feasibly be holstered will begin with the weapons pointed at the ground.

  • Combatants will be treated as bloodlusted for the tribunal.

Gear Rules

There are two options for submitting gear. Standardized Gear and Specialized Gear

  • Standard Gear - Any gear a character has used at least twice, has regular access to, and would likely carry into a random encounter. Examples

Good - Batman has used a grapple gun in Detective Comics #787 and Batman #646. It is standard gear.

Bad - Batman has used the Justice Buster suit in Batman #35 and Batman #36.

The grappling hook is something Batman would reasonably always bring with him. The justice buster is not. Furthermore, all standard gear must be stipulated. If it is not stipulated with at least an “all gear in RT” a character can be assumed not to have it.

  • Specialized Gear: A character gets the gear they possessed in one appearance or set of appearances, but this is the only gear they get. Using the previous example, Batman could be stipulated to have the gear from Batman #35 and #36, but he would not get a grappling hook, as he did not use one in those issues.

Debate Rules

  • To declare an opponent out of tier, make one case for why you believe the opponent to be out of tier, while tagging me and GuyOfEvil, that is under 5,000 characters and part of one of your 3 responses. Your opponent will get one response to this, also under 5,000 characters, and from then on you will have to both argue with the assumption that the character is in-tier, unless you forfeit the match itself and rely entirely on the OOT request.

  • Each competitor must get a response in per 48 hour window, and a minimum of two responses per round. This means you will have to respond in a timely fashion.

  • 1v1s will have orders randomized

  • If you are declared OOT mid-debate, that character is automatically considered a loss. If you still win, you will have to switch to a backup.

  • Rounds will last 4-5 days, each user must respond within 48 hours of the previous response, and have at least two responses in by the end of the debate, unless an extension is granted at my discretion.

Misc Rules

These are largely rulings that I have made that I would like to write down to create a stronger precedent, that were not originally rules in tribunal or sign ups.

  • Speedboosts can be allowed, or disabled with a stipulation. They scale in proportion of the movement and reactions of the base character - a normal human gaining 40x faster reflexes and running would have 250 microsecond reactions in our tournament.

  • Big characters are start relative from where there furthest point is from their front - illustrated here.

  • Summons or 'fake' characters do not count for the purpose of a win condition - for instance, if a mage died in a 1v1 and left behind his 2 zombies, he would still automatically lose. This also applies to hive-minds or drone characters.

  • Characters with multiple bodies or hive-minds start so that the real or main version of that character starts in the standard location, with every other character starting 6 feet behind them, spaced 6 feet apart from the rest of the drones of hive mind characters. Illustrated here.

  • Characters are aware of how arenas function - they know they can be BFRd, certain areas instantly kill them, the water is an out of bounds zone, big characters can't be out of bounds, etc.

  • No arguing that powers don't work because of something like "This arena is in TF2, where physics are different". Seriously. Just don't do it. I swear to god.

Tournament Bracket

Round 1 Matchups

Round 1 will be 1v1s. Randomized order is

1 vs 3

3 vs 2

2 vs 1

Also-Ameraa vs PreRoastedTaco

Foolkiller Greg vs Black Star

AoA Nightcrawler vs Krona

Vista vs Death The Kid

Coconut vs Cynical

Abomination vs Jaune

Mindless Hulk vs Medaka

Ultron vs Kuruo

Fj668 vs The_Iridescence

Iron Man vs Magneto

Super Adaptoid vs Wonder Woman

Godzilla vs Amadeus Cho

HighSlayerRalton vs EmbraceAllDeath

Melodias vs Yuta

Salem vs Samphati

Randau vs Gandharva

ShinyBreloom vs JedidahLord

Hasharima vs Ultraman Greed

Cthylok vs Ultraman Belial

Uchicha vs Ultraman

Anyone not mentioned here will have their first match in Round 2. Debate format is IntroA/IntroB - Response 1A - Response 1B - Response 2A - Response 2B - Response 3A - Response 3B - and then conclusions in any order.

Round 1 Arena

How declaring a character out of tier works is that in tribunal, a character will need to be in-tier in every arena, but for each round, you can only call them OOT for that arena. For example - If a plant character is out of tier in the jungle, but you're in round 2, it doesn't matter.

Characters cannot leave, break, or affect the domes in any round. In a 3v3, each combatant will be lined up in order of submission, starting 6 feet from their allies. The dome will not interfere with weather powers and will allow abilities that would originate from space to enter. The character themselves still can not leave for an attack, even if that attack would require them to exit.

For all relevant rounds, any character taller than 165 feet is immune to the environmental hazards present in Upward, and cannot be disqualified for hitting the water on The Golden Gate Bridge.

Mount St. Helens

  • Combatants will start 25 feet from each other, each one being 12.5 feet from the center of the mountain.

  • The mountain can, in fact, be triggered, via geokinesis, or a sufficiently powerful impact directly to the mountain (This follows real world physics.

  • The fight takes place at high noon, with a clear sky.

  • The battlefield is limited to a 100 mile diameter, invisible, unbreakable, whowouldwinium dome. It is 100 miles tall, and goes 100 miles down. There are no people in this arena, but there are still animals/wildlife/plants.

Good luck, and have fun.

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2

u/xWolfpaladin ​ Dec 12 '18

HighSlayerRalton vs EmbraceAllDeath

Character Verse Stipulations Win Chance
Melodias SDS Has Lostvayne Likely
Salem Forged Destiny Draw
Randau Marvel 616 Hulk-absorbed, it isn't too long since he drained a victim of their energy Likely

vs

Character Canon Win Chance
Gandharva Kubera Draw
Samphati Kubera Likely
Yuta Kubera Unlikely
Kasak Rajof Kubera Draw

Stipulations

Gandharva:

  • Condition 1: Post Sura Ocean Creation, Pre Taraka Seal

  • Condition 2: Sura Realm/Non Human Realm environment is assumed, so Gandharva can switch between Human form and Sura Form freely.

  • Condition 3: Sections 2-5 in the RT are applicable, and limits shown in Section 4 are negligible if those limits are contradicted by feats in sections 2 or 3 due to condition 1

  • Condition 4: Frozen Tears ability in Section 4 is removed from Gandharva for two reasons

    • Reason 1: Gandharva can only use this ability if Gandharva is crying emotionally. Gandharva has only cried emotionally in Kubera for in story reasons, and those reasons would not be applicable to a random encounter.
    • Reason 2: Frozen Tears is a telepathic attack, which would put Gandharva out of tier.

  • Condition 5: Starts in Sura form

  • Condition 6: Gandharva is rationally minded

Samphati

  • Condition 1: Samphati's Mind Altering Transcendental is removed from Samphati as it is a telepathic attack, which would put Samphati out of tier.

  • Condition 2: Starts in Sura form

Yuta

  • Condition 1: Yuta is in his third stage of development, and hence the feats of his second and third form as well as the limits of his third form are to be considered.

  • Condition 2: Assumed Gear is his shape shifting sword (which he always possesses) and his scarf (which he possessed before he gifted it while in his third stage of development).

  • Condition 3: Starts in Sura form

1

u/HighSlayerRalton ​ Dec 12 '18

Team Fuck This Stupid Fucking Tier Why Aren't There Many Fuckin' Casual Mountain-busters Jesus Christ

Meliodas

Seven Deadly Sins
Respect Thread

Bio:

  • An old demonic knight.

Powers:

  • Phyiscally tough with some regen when using his demon power. Has a few other abilities, perhaps most notably his Counters. One that can reflect or nullify magic, and one that lets him charge up an attack by taking physical damage.

Gear:

  • Demon Sword Lostvayne — a sword that lets Meliodas make weaker clones of himself

Some Feats:

 

 

Salem

Forged Destiny
Respect Thread

Bio:

  • An old demonic goddess.

Powers:

  • Has a variety of abilities. Telekinesis, teleportation, transmutation, and so on.

Gear:

  • None

Some Feats:

 

 

Randau

Marvel-616
Respect Thread

Bio:

  • He's an alien. He kind of looks like a demon though. If you squint.

Powers:

  • Absorbs powers temporarily, over prolonged contact. Has absorbed Classic Hulk's here, so has comparable physicals

Gear:

  • None

Some Feats:

1

u/EmbraceAllDeath ​ Dec 13 '18 edited Dec 13 '18

Team Suras

Yuta

Although he'll look like this during the fight.

RT

Bio: A young 3rd stage Rakshasa Garuda-Taraka Sura swordsman. Lives his life to find his siblings but also cherish Kubera Leez.

Powers: Decent strength, flight, teleportation, projectiles, mind-reading, and ability nullification

Gear: A shapeshifting sword and telekinetically controlled scarf

Some Feats:

 

Samphati

RT

Bio: A young 5th stage Rakshasa Garuda Sura. Lives her life in pursuit in search of revenge.

Powers: Invisibility, Flying, projectiles

Gear: Literally nothing

Some Feats:

 

Gandharva

RT

Bio:He's a big guy. Also is king of the Gandharva Clan, which is composed of fish-like Suras.

Powers: Freezing and Energy Projectiles mainly

Gear: Nothing particularly

Some Feats:

Some notes particular to Suras in general

This regen factor can be overcome by a sufficient physical force, as demonstrated by the following feat

Anyways I'm starting the draft of my response now, it'll be up in a couple of hours.

Edit 1, 02:54 EST: Finished the Yuta and Samphati fights, I'll finish the last one in the morning and post.

1

u/EmbraceAllDeath ​ Dec 13 '18

Response 1 Part 1

Yuta vs Melodias

Stuff to ignore:

Yuta doesn't get access to Insight, his mind-reading ability, as Meliodas is significantly older than Yuta.

Meliodas won't get access to Full Counter, Counter Vanish, Revenge Counter, Hellblaze, nor Lostvayne's cloning power. These abilities will be negated due to Yuta's transcendental block, which allows him to seal off abilities, and has effected Sura abilities (and Suras essentially function as the demons of the Kubera-verse, as they oppose the gods and related as such in Vedic lore) as well as magical abilities. Meliodas wouldn't only be able to disrupt this blocking if he attacks Yuta's eyes which empower this ability, but Meliodas has no knowledge of Yuta's power and has no reason to do so. Yuta's power likely also affects Meliodas's access to Demon power/stage, as Suralization (the act of changing to Sura form from Human form) is a transcendental skill for Nastika Suras which can be blocked.

Yuta's Strength vs Meliodas's durability

Yuta's Strength

Literally the tail striking feat listed in the RT, which broke Brilith's Closed Space. It's his main point of offense and his other attacks are weaker, although his biting and energy transcendentals may come into play Maruna's Crimson Sunshine of Dawn, which is tanked by the Closed Space that Yuta can break, has its size shown here.

In the scan, the radius of the explosion is 252 pixels, whereas the height difference of at least a story between the 2nd and 3rd buildings from the left that jut out is 4 pixels. Assuming that a story is 10 feet tall, the explosion's radius is 10*(252/4) feet, or 630 feet. Assuming a spherical quantity, Yuta's strike packs at least more than a spherical explosion that is 4/3 * pi * (630feet)3, or 1.05 *109 ft3.

Meliodas's Durability

Let's use the most recent feat, where

[Durability] Tanks Gloxinia's Basquias Form One blast which shot him over 8 miles away, shot him over the horizon from that point, and blasted apart a mountain past the 8 mile point with just its shock wave. Meliodas took no damage from an easily multi-mountain+ attack

The explosion in feat is approximately 625 pixels tall and 1000 pixels wide, whereas a nearby 3 story building is 25 pixels in height. Assuming that a story is 10 feet tall, this suggests that the explosion that Meliodas tanked is 103(625/25) feet, or 750 feet tall and 103(1000/25) feet, or 1200 feet wide. Meliodas can tank at least a conic explosion that is around pi*((1200/2)ft)2 * 750 ft/3, or 2.83 *108 ft.3

The scan also indicates that Meliodas takes a couple of seconds to recover, which is troublesome when he's thousands of mph in travel speed which gets normalized.

Analysis

Yuta's strikes are at least a couple orders in magnitude above Meliodas. If Yuta can tag Meliodas, he can reasonably put him down a couple of times. Yuta's strikes can also send Meliodas far away, and hence can severely damage the latter if he strikes him into the arena barrier. Meliodas's revenge Counter may also work against him, as Meliodas may intentionally attempt to tank Yuta's strikes in order to unleash it back against Yuta, only to fail when Yuta's transcendental blocking kicks in.

Yuta's durability vs Meliodas's strength.

Yuta's Durability

Note that the range of craters is stretching to the horizon , which is 2.9 miles long. Yuta additionally scales physically to his tail striking feats, as his tail can't deal the amount of power it does unless it can withstand that power given Newton's third law.

Meliodas's Strength

I'll cite the strength feat that you list in intro. The tree at the top of the hill is 30 pixels, while the hill is about 660 pixels tall. Assuming the tree is about 40 feet tall, the length of the strike is about 880 feet tall

Analysis

Yuta can tank Meilodas's strikes, given that that the explosions that Yuta deals with (both the Crimson Blitz and Crimson Sunshine of Dawn) scale superiorly to Meliodas's strikes. Additionally, even if the piercing strikes of Meliodas phase Yuta, they don't damage Yuta in way that overcomes his regen which should return severed body parts. Meliodas additionally doesn't possessing the strength capability to put Yuta down. Yuta also has his sword to defend against Meliodas' ranged sword attacks given that the sword is Yuta's body, and should scale similarly in durability to Yuta's tail as a weapon even if it isn't as strong as Yuta's tail.

Yuta vs Meliodas in Abilities

As said b4 Meliodas's abilities are dealt with via transcendental blocking. However, Yuta has teleportation, which is relatively unlimited if he teleports to his scarf, which is a part from his body. With the combination of Yuta telekinetically manipulating the scarf and teleportation, Yuta can get the drop on Meliodas many times, both teleporting out of danger while also getting the jump of Meliodas. Yuta's energy projectiles, while not threatening, can create dust and distract Meliodas with its blinding light from the sky while Yuta launches attacks or escape.

Yuta vs Melodias in Speed Boosts and Agility

Yuta can gain a slight speed boost by using his wings to fly, as indicated by the feat below

Yuta also can using his flight to maneuver around the battlefield more easily, which is a huge advantage on mountain, where it hard to move into the mountain while on foot (cause gravity).

Meliodas's comparable speed boost of demon power can get transcendental blocked, and additionally there isn't a clear feat to distinguish the speed boost obtained even if he can access it, which means that Yuta will be relatively faster, and hence have more striking and dodging opportunities.

Samphati vs Salem

Note

I suspect this character's abilities are OOT, but I'll wait till next response to make a formal OOT argument since I don't fully understand her powers. The OOT I make in this 1st response will not relevant to any decision to rule your character OOT.

Stuff to ignore:

Salem's Aura: I'm not sure how this would this interact with Samphati, given that I don't have a clear idea of the strength levels of the people affected by the aura. If you do explains how this defeats Yuta, make sure that state how this doesn't autowin against Hulk, which would be OOT. The people that her aura affects are also the people who her strength and durability scale to, so if Samphati demonstrates dominance against her in those categories she'll be able to overwhelm the aura.

Telekinesis: Samphati is likely too large to manipulate, as Kasak looks as big as her head, and Kasak is much large than the size of a human. OOT-wise, her Darth Vader chokes seem dangerously close to an auto win vs Hulk.

Telepathy: Wouldn't be relevant to a fight, since her telepathy seems limited to scoping inner desires of opponents and not their plans.

Grimm Creation: The creatures that she turned into Grimm seemed to be human, which wouldn't affect Samphati, a Sura. This ability, which turns humans into Grimm via snap, seems close to OOT since there doesn't seem to be a limit to this ability

Intangibility: Her ability is limited to particular body parts, which limits its scope, and additionally all of Samphati's attacks will attack Salem's whole body considering Samphati's size.

Healling: No indication she can use it on herself

Silencing: Neither of our characters are reliant on sound, so not terribly relevant. Samphati's eyesight is also amazing enough that this would probably benefit her.

Cataclysm: This seems to have taken place over a long period of time, and Samphati can fly to avoid the ravines created by this attack.

Item Creation: No combat items, not relevant

Intelligence: Manipulation is verse dependent based on Salem's knowledge of other characters, and is not applicable to a random encounter.

Samphati's Durability vs Salem's attacks

Samphati's durability

Samphati's durability is at least 1.5 times city busting given the feat listed in the intro, even if the feat did hurt her significantly she was able to continue fighting for a few hours after by fleeing in the sky away from Kasak while shooting energy beams.

Salem's Attacks

Her best strength feat is this feat:

Jaune's strength at lv 33 is Blocks Watts

And Watt's Strength in turn is catching Nora's hammer

And Nora at best could destroy a support beam.

1

u/EmbraceAllDeath ​ Dec 13 '18

Response 1 Part 2

Analysis

Scaling to destroying a support beam is not going to phase Samphati at all, and nor are tile charring attacks.

Samphati's attacks vs Salem's durability

Salem's durability

Her durability scales to a slightly stronger version of level 33 Jaune's sword attack, so her strength is pretty much analogous to her durability, so she can withstand support beam busting attacks

Samphati's attacks

Where to even begin. Samphati's Energy beams from the sky listed in the intro make mountains into molehills, her energy blasts are implied to be threatening to a city. These projectiles also have a good possibility of triggering the ground into lava and preventing Salem from having a safe place to stand. And her physical strikes are fairly powerful, as depicted in the feat below, which was done in her human form:

Analysis

Samphati wrecks the heck out of Salem, with projectiles or strikes. Supports beam durability is dwarved by the former's attacks. Literally would be one strike one kill.

Speed Boosts and Agility and Abilities.

In terms of speed boosts, Samphati is likely faster flying than walking in a similar manner to Yuta, given that they're both Garuda Suras. Gives her a slight speed advantage.

Salem's teleportations are negligible. They can either only travel short distances, which are paled by the size of Samphati's attack in terms of Area of Effect, or they link to dimension exiting which would be a self-imposed loss via BFR. Salem's teleportation also doesn't seem to move to the air, which would prevent her from tagging Samphati a lot

Conclusion

You listed Salem as glass canon in your sign-up, and that type of designation makes it clear why she loses the match. Her only relevant means of attack of punching beyond her weight are aura, telekinesis, and cataclysm, but none of those attacks seriously threatn Samphati. Samphati on the other hand, has numerous manners of one-shotting Salem. Salem's other attacks are either ineffective or OOT with the way that they're constructed (Grimm creation, maybe aura, etc.).

Gandharva vs Randau

Stuff to Ignore

I'm assuming Randau's light speed spaceship is irrelevant, since his stipulations don't list it and he hasn't used it in combat

Small rant about Randau

Randau's compatability with Hulk relies on two assumptions:

  • That Randau's physicals are comparable to Tourney Hulk

  • That Randau was actually competing with the Hulk that he scales to

  • That Randau can continuously absorb power over the course a fight, giving him an advantage over Hulk and similar characters

However, this assumption falls flat in light of the interpretation of the feats

On the first assumption , Randau's physicals are not comparable to Tourney Hulk, but are rather comparable to a weaker version of Hulk during a particular run. Because

  • The scans in the thread suggest that Randau is newer characters from 2007, and hence would scale to modern Hulk and not Classic Hulk/Tourney Hulk

    • This scan indicates that a one final attack that will destroy the Hulk according to Randau is the weight of a train. If the particular version of Hulk that Randau fought and scales to truly has mountain-level scaling, then there is no way he would think that a train would be able to hurt the Hulk, as it would either not scratch the Hulk or the Hulk's body would go right through the trains. The particular train that Randau wanted to hurt the Hulk with was also broken everywhere, which weakens the strength that Randau supposedly scales to. The throw that the Hulk also performs in the scans is also ridiculously weak for the Hulk, as when he throws Randau into a train car, Randau only goes half way through the window but not any further when he wanted to "defeat" Randau, which suggests that Hulk was using a power level far below mountain-busting.
    • This scan indicates that Randau is awed by the idea of the Hulk falling several hundred feet, and understand his physicals by this standard. This feat has an energy impact of 1.5 million joules assuming that Hulk is 500 kilograms and a fall height of 300 meters. A 1 megaton nuke that Tourney Hulk can nuke on the other hand is on a scope of 1015 joules, which is massively higher. Hence Hulk's durability is likely lower when he scales to Randau. Hulk in the scan also loses grasp of Randau while Randau is (presumably?) flying or floating in the air, which is laughable compared to a Hulk that has mountain-level grappling abilities. Hulk's strength is hence likely substantially lower than tourney Hulk.

  • The scans in the thread also suggest that Randau isn't particularly a match for Hulk.

    • Let's focus on this [Scan]: the one where Randau supposedly turns the tables on Hulk. In the scan where Randau dominates the Hulk and stuns him, his effect on the Hulk seems to be exaggerated by the narration and not representative of the feats displayed itself. Most of the scan's impressiveness comes from boasts from Randau about how he could continue to beat up Hulk and absorb his power. In actuality, Hulk is simply lying down for one panel, and after that in the next page of the Hulk Randau fight…
    • In the next page of that same fight, Hulk ragdolls Randau by throwing him into a train car, and forces Randau to muster the force for one last final chance strike to take down the Hulk.
    • All in all, Randau lasts for only a minute or two against the Hulk you claim to scale to, as according to the wiki shortly after being thrown into the train car he was BFRed into the Hudson, and then couldn't force Hulk to fight him in his state.

  • The scans in Randau's thread also suggest that his power-absorbing ability is highly exaggerated.

    • First of all, the power absorbing is not consistent . Randau seems to get a taste of Hulk's energy by being thrown into a train car, and yet he doesn't seem to absorb any energy, as he still complains about energy loss the next panel. The energy loss panel also indicates that Randau's power absorption abilities have a limit and decay rapidly, as he describes his power as decreasing substantially in second intervals. This power decay aspect is further reinforced by the fact that in the first panel his power absorption doesn't seem to work against the Hulk (which is big anti-feat) and the third panel indicates that Randau's power has decayed for too long since his last absorption. The third panel is important because in the page before this scan…
    • This scan of the page before the above scan indicates that Randau is boasting about absorbing Hulk's power. Now there are two interpretations, both of which are bad for Randau. Either Randau did absorb Hulk's strength from that time and his power literally decays within a couple of seconds and has inconsistencies in working again, or Randau's didn't absorb power and was boasting and his power absorption happened much earlier, but now Randau lacks feats to indicate that he can absorb strength from being punched.
    • Speaking of which, lets go to the other two absorption feats. The first one which states that Randau became stronger by a thousand-fold after absorbing an enemy, is based on the narration of a pacifist old man who's upset with Randau's war mongering. He has an incentive to greatly exaggerate Randau's abilities to justify convincing a king to kill him.
    • The scan where Randau takes the power cosmic from terrax only happened when Randau was adjusted to the power of a life-force of a planet, which is well above Randau's run with Hulk. Also the power gap between the power cosmic and and the life force of a planet is smaller than the gap between Randau's feats vs Hulk and mountain-busting tourney Hulk.

How Gandharva defeats Randau

Randau is way below mountain tier and approximately at high street tier at best. Gandharva destroys him with his Frosty Shot projectile that was able to decimate a mountain and has a large Area of Effect and call it a day. Gandharva also has at least city tier-ish durability by tanking the city-wide fire attack listed in the intro.

/u/highslayerralton

1

u/HighSlayerRalton ​ Dec 14 '18

Response 1 Part 1

Counters

Yuta Vs. Meliodas

Meliodas won't get access to Full Counter, Counter Vanish, Revenge Counter, Hellblaze, nor Lostvayne's cloning power. These abilities will be negated due to Yuta's transcendental block, which allows him to seal off abilities, and has effected Sura abilities (and Suras essentially function as the demons of the Kubera-verse, as they oppose the gods and related as such in Vedic lore) as well as magical abilities.

Seven Deadly Sins demons and Kubera's Yuta are entirely different creatures, from vastly different settings, running on entirely different power-sets. Yuta does not get to apply his power to Meliodas because "he's a member of a race that fights Goddesses whose name is similar to that of the Gods who fight the race that this power actually works against". Yuta's Transcendental Blocking works on certain powers in his own setting, it does not get to be applied to other power systems.

Yuta's power likely also affects Meliodas's access to Demon power/stage, as Suralization (the act of changing to Sura form from Human form) is a transcendental skill for Nastika Suras which can be blocked.

Meliodas is not a Kubera Sura. He does not Suralize.

Maruna's Crimson Sunshine of Dawn, which is tanked by the Closed Space that Yuta can break, has its size shown here

It's a big light show, but that doesn't guarantee destructive power.

Let's use the most recent feat

As opposed to the best.

The explosion in feat is approximately 625 pixels tall and 1000 pixels wide, whereas a nearby 3 story building is 25 pixels in height.

Don't scale to a low-quality part of an image that could well be drawn at the smallest possible size while still being distinguishable from the "camera"'s distance.

Meliodas can tank at least a conic explosion that is around pi*((1200/2)ft)2 * 750 ft/3, or 2.83 *108 ft.3

Where are you getting this from?

Side-note: Size and power are not synonymous.

Maruna uses Crimson Blitz on Yuta, which leaves the ground littered with small craters from each of the blasts, although Yuta tanks the blast.

Only the part that hits Yuta is relevant. Given that it creates small craters in the places it hits, that's low durability for this tier.

Note that the range of craters is stretching to the horizon , which is 2.9 miles long

That's for Earth. Assuming this feat takes place on the main planet of the setting, and using the same height as the formula you use, the distance to the horizon would be:

  • Distance ≈ √(height (circumference / (π×2) + height)
  • Distance ≈ √ 1.7m (approximately halfway around the planet×2 / (π×2) + 1.7m)
  • Distance ≈ √( 1.7m ( "approximately" 40,000km / (π×2) + 1.7m) )
  • Distance ≈ "approximately" 3.28976276 kilometres
  • Distance ≈ "approximately" 2.04416381 miles

Given the "approximately", it would be lowballed to a bit lower than this. It's only about 2/3rds of what you suggest.

Assuming the tree is about 40 feet tall

Did you just Google average tree height" and run with the height of the striped maple, an understory tree?

The trees in the scan are lithe, with leaves primarily towards their top. They belong in the canopy. They should be much taller.

even if the piercing strikes of Meliodas phase Yuta, they don't damage Yuta in way that overcomes his regen which should return severed body parts

Speed feats for this regen?

the sword is Yuta's body and should scale similarly in durability to Yuta's tail as a weapon

Can I get some elaboration and scans regarding this?

With the combination of Yuta telekinetically manipulating the scarf and teleportation, Yuta can get the drop on Meliodas many times

A scarf would not be hard to track at high noon, with a clear sky. Especially with Meliodas' clones extra eyes.

Meliodas is really hard to sneak attack anyway. Really hard.

Yuta can gain a slight speed boost by using his wings to fly, as indicated by the feat below

  • [Dodging Speed/Flying] When Maruna attempts to strikes Yuta on the ground with his talons, Yuta manages to uses his wings to escape unharmed.

The speed of flight demonstrated is meaningless without non-flying speed to scale off of, as speed is equalised.

Yuta also can using his flight to maneuver around the battlefield more easily, which is a huge advantage on mountain, where it hard to move into the mountain while on foot (cause gravity).

Meliodas can also fly.

 

Samphati vs Salem

Her ability is limited to particular body parts

Given the casual nature in which Salem made her arm intangible, and the scale of her other abilities, I would not arbitrate such a limit.

No indication she can use it on herself

She can but it's slow.

The creatures that she turned into Grimm seemed to be human, which wouldn't affect Samphati, a Sura.

As Salem is an entirely otherworldly being, it would make no sense for her powers to be reliant on aliens. Creating Grimm seemingly requires people—although "wild" Grimm are borne of her from nought, it seems. Samphati, while non-human, is no more alien to Salem than the creatures she has turned into Grimm.

These projectiles also have a good possibility of triggering the ground into lava

How would they do this?

which makes her instead strike the large mountain sized cliff Yuta was on, which fractures said cliff.

That is not a "mountain-sized cliff". Just look at the size of the trees, or the (presumably) human-sized body in comparison.

In terms of speed boosts, Samphati is likely faster flying than walking in a similar manner to Yuta

Again, speed is equalised, so you're going to have some way fo scaling the flight to normal speed.

They can either only travel short distances

Given that Salem can seemingly appear anywhere on the planet, and cross between worlds, while stretching her power to reach an entire continent

Salem's teleportation also doesn't seem to move to the air

There's nothing to suggest she must teleport to somewhere where she is in contact with the ground.

 

Gandharva vs Randau

The scans in the thread suggest that Randau is newer characters from 2007, and hence would scale to modern Hulk and not Classic Hulk/Tourney Hulk

Pardon?

He fights the Hulk in The Incredible Hulk Vo. 1 #103. Only six or so years after the Hulk's creation.

This scan indicates that a one final attack that will destroy the Hulk according to Randau is the weight of a train

This is an already weakened and desperate Randau, an already power-drained and battle-worn Hulk, and a claim we have no reason to beleive is correct. Especially as he's incorrect in the next scan you bring up.

Randau has little experience with the Hulk, or his durability. Given the nature of his own powers, judging a foe's would be difficult. His powers scale to his foe's, so he has no hard basis for comparison.

Further, if one is hit with a feather, hard enough, they will be bested. The train is but an implement.

Also, Randau knows only of the train as a piece of crude machinery. The machinery of his own planet is evidently far more advanced, and potentially more dangerous.

This scan indicates that Randau is awed by the idea of the Hulk falling several hundred feet, and understand his physicals by this standard.

Falling is more dangerous in the Marvel universe. The tier setter is himself a great example of wacky falling physics. Heck, ol' Hulky has exaggerated the danger to himself, nevermind Randau.

Randau may also hail from a planet of greater gravity.

Randau is seen to have underestimated the Hulk, anyway, so none of this is relevant.

Hulk in the scan also loses grasp of Randau while Randau is (presumably?) flying or floating in the air, which is laughable compared to a Hulk that has mountain-level grappling abilities.

Again, Hulk is drained. That's the whole point of Randau. And maybe he's a really slippery alien. Also, weird gravity again, blah blah blah.

Let's focus on this [Scan]:

Which scan? I'm going to presume you're talking about this.

his effect on the Hulk seems to be exaggerated by the narration

The narration says nothing of his effect on the Hulk.

Most of the scan's impressiveness comes from boasts from Randau about how he could continue to beat up Hulk and absorb his power. In actuality, Hulk is simply lying down for one panel, and after that in the next page of the Hulk Randau fight…

In the next page of that same fight, Hulk ragdolls Randau by throwing him into a train car, and forces Randau to muster the force for one last final chance strike to take down the Hulk.

Because Randau's powers are on the fritz for a reason stipulated out for this Tourney.

First of all, the power absorbing is not consistent

His sceptre struggles, he doesn't.

Randau seems to get a taste of Hulk's energy by being thrown into a train car, and yet he doesn't seem to absorb any energy

Again, powers on the fritz.

The energy loss panel also indicates that Randau's power absorption abilities have a limit and decay rapidly, as he describes his power as decreasing substantially in second intervals

Again, powers on the fritz.

Fool, you cannot overload Randau with power.

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u/HighSlayerRalton ​ Dec 14 '18

Response 1 Part 2

This power decay aspect is further reinforced by the fact that in the first panel his power absorption doesn't seem to work against the Hulk

Again, that's his sceptre. His own absorption works fine.

Either Randau did absorb Hulk's strength from that time and his power literally decays within a couple of seconds and has inconsistencies in working again, or Randau's didn't absorb power and was boasting and his power absorption happened much earlier, but now Randau lacks feats to indicate that he can absorb strength from being punched.

It's the former, but, again, it's because his powers are on the fritz.

The first one which states that Randau became stronger by a thousand-fold after absorbing an enemy, is based on the narration of a pacifist old man who's upset with Randau's war mongering. He has an incentive to greatly exaggerate Randau's abilities to justify convincing a king to kill him.

It states that he grew that much stronger after every victory, not enemy. I also see no reason to doubt the guy. He literally exists to give us this exposition that is wholly in-line with everything we are shown about Randau. You're just making up a character trait of this guy being a manipulative lier to try and throw his words into doubt.

The scan where Randau takes the power cosmic from terrax only happened when Randau was adjusted to the power of a life-force of a planet

Which has nothing to do with anything.

Also the power gap between the power cosmic and and the life force of a planet is smaller than the gap between Randau's feats vs Hulk and mountain-busting tourney Hulk

Can you quantify the life force of a planet to compare it to Terrax?

New Arguments

Yuta Vs. Meliodas

Countering Yuta

As you said, Yuta's insight is countered by Meliodas' age.

Yuta's Energy Transcendental is countered by, appropriately enough, Meliodas' Full Counter, which deflects magical attacks.

The Difference In Skill

Yuta has no real feats for actual fighting skill. Meliodas is perceptive (very perceptive), able to fight an on-and-off invisible foe on the move while defending another, and engaging in swordplay with a knight of seemingly comparable speed.

Yuta lacks the skill to avoid being tagged by meliodas.

Melioda's ability to create doppleganers will only make it more difficult for Yuta. Whom is the real Meliodas? Whom does he guard against? If Yuta uses his Energy Trancendental to try and clear out the clones, he'll be rebuffed as each of the clones will be capable of reflecting the attack with Full Counter.

Meliodas Can Put Yuta Down Hard

Yuta lacks cutting-resistance feats. His RT has one and it amounts to "is cut, but survives bleeding". Meliodas cuts Galand, who an earlier Meliodas couldn't scratch. The earlier Meliodas could cut Albion with Lostvayne, but not without. Without Lostvayne, Meliodas cuts a small mountain in half with the air pressure from a twig. That level of cutting is easily enough to get over Yuta's lack of feats.

Once cut, Yuta's regen is countered by Meliodas' Hellflames, which work against regen. They've injured Ban, who hasn't healed from them, in spite of his regen.

I've gone over why Yuta's only energy-resistance feat isn't as good as you think, above. Meliodas has an attack that creates a 30,000 foot hole. It's not very wide, but that depth is impressive. More impressive than the small craters Yuta scales to.

Making A Comeback

Should things go poorly: Meliodas' has pretty decent regen, and should that fail, the willpower to keep fighting when injured. And his Revenge Counter can be used as a last resort move, should he be given no choice.

 

Samphati vs Salem

Countering Samphati

Samphati's Hiding is countered by Salem's ability to sense emotions, as Salem thusly needs neither sight, nor sound, nor touch to find her.

Besting Samphati

Samphati lacks any mental resistance or willpower feats to suggest that she can withstand Salem's aura, which will down her immediately.

She also lacks any feats by which to resist being transformed into a Grimm.

Beyond that, she can create city-swallowing ravines, which is a display of force enough to damage Samphati, whose durability is 1.5× an attack that could have potentially destroyed a very small city. There're no scans in the RT to support the 1.5× point, however, so perhaps her durability is even less than that.

 

Gandharva vs Randau

Parasite Meets All-You-Can-Eat Buffet

Giving just a bit of energy to another is massively draining for Gandharva. Randau's draining is enough to leave Gandharva powerless, given that the person whose power is absorbed in that feat is far above Gandharva (being a planet-buster)

Randau will easily be able to tank and aborb Gandharva's energy attacks. Which Gandharva regularly uses in battle, at least in the form he's in here. Opening with a big energy attack will see the tables turn massively; Randau empowered and Gandharva weakened. And once Gandharva's on that slippery slope, Randau will only get stronger.

Washing It Down

Gandharva's also very dependant on acquiring water. Now, you could argue that this is a weakness he only has because he's in the human realm in the scan, which doesn't apply thanks to his stipulations. But, I'm not seeing any feats to suggest he doesn't have this limitation in the Sura Realm/Non-Human Realm at this time in his history.

OoT Arguments

Yuta

Yuta scales to a shield that repeatedly blocks massively multi-moutain attacks. He's massively muli-mountain-busting.

He also has solid regen, a precognition/hindsight/mind-reading that will give him a huge edge, and teleportation and flight that will let him control the range of the fight.

 

Samphati

Samphati can just unleash a ranged, Ao multi-mountain attack that the Hulk has no chance of dodging or surviving.

She can also make it almost impossible for the Hulk to find and attack her by using her ability that makes her invisible, silent, and non-tactile. Her flight will make it even harder to tag her.

She also has regen if hit, presumably at least comparably fast to this low-tier character from her setting's.

 

Gandharva

Gandharva is large enough to tower over mountains, and scales to a massively multi-mountain-busting attack, with multi-mountain-sized and continent-scale attacks of his own. Gandharva is far above casual mountain-busting-tier. He doesn't just hold "some advantages", he's "blatantly superior is all stats".

His victory condition would be a Freak Accident Loss (Your character holds so many advantages, or is just blatantly superior in all stats, that they can't be considered acceptable) rather than a Likely Victory (Your character holds some advantages, and is consistent enough to win more times than they lose) or anything lower.

And that's not even getting into his abilities. Ranged attacks that also scale to the same feat.

A freezing aura and general freezing powers that can drop below -89°C and approach -273.15°C (blood freezes at a little under 0°C, this is too cold for the tier-setter). Their ice also doesn't melt under normal conditions, and comes in multi-mountain-sized doses, making it all the worse.

Considerable control of their body with regeneration even if their body parts are seperated. Presumably at leastcomparably fast to this low-tier character from their setting's.

Other

Gandharva is rationally minded

Isn't this just a "free bloodlust", which is against the rules?

/u/EmbraceAllDeath
/u/xWolfpaladin
/u/GuyOfEvil

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u/EmbraceAllDeath ​ Dec 16 '18

Hey, I got kinda caught up with finals and my response got delayed, so the current draft i have is here is unfinished but it's what I have at the 48 hour mark. Do you want to respond to this (in which case I can post it here minus the quotes I didn't respond to), or do you want me to finish the response (which I can probably do within two hours).

/u/HighSlayerRalton

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u/HighSlayerRalton ​ Dec 16 '18

Finish it off if you want to. We're brushing up against the deadline now, so you may want to include your conclusions. My next response will probably be too close to deadline for us to have thirds. At least, thirds of a reasonable size.

/u/EmbraceAllDeath

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u/EmbraceAllDeath ​ Dec 16 '18

Gotcha, thanks.

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u/EmbraceAllDeath ​ Dec 16 '18

Done

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u/HighSlayerRalton ​ Dec 16 '18

I don't check my comment replies. /u/ me.

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u/EmbraceAllDeath ​ Dec 16 '18

Gotcha, I'll do that in the future

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