r/whowouldwin • u/xWolfpaladin ​ • Jan 02 '19

Event The Trial of Champions - Round 3

Continuing in the tradition of a debate oriented tournament, The Trial of Champions is an off-season, user-run tournament in the same style of the Great Debate. Strategizing your team, formulating why your entrants would win, and debating skill will all be important skills for this tournament.

Trial of Champions Tribunal link

Respect ToC!Hulk

Rounds will last from 1/1/19 to 1/8/19

Rules

Battle Rules

  • Combatants cannot willingly target or hurt their own team members, but can hurt their own team members via collateral/BFR/etc. If you're running Batman and Joker, they won't fight, but if Joker uses his "blow up with the power of 10 suns" gadget, he'll kill his team.

  • All combatants will have their reaction time equalized to 10 milliseconds, with their base movement/running speed being equal to 70 mph. They will start about five relative seconds away, or .25 seconds, or 25 feet. Other methods of transportation will scale relatively to 70 mph - if you can run at 10 m/s, and fly at 20 m/s, then you'll be 140 mph in the tournament.

    • Speed boosts are still allowed, and stipulations for how they function/if you're allowing them are appreciated. For example, a character with a x10 reaction boost would be 1 ms in this tournament.

  • Projectiles will scale relatively, based on reaction speed and how fast your character perceives in their unequalized state. If Bullet-Dodge Jones and Neo are shooting at each other, both can dodge shots. If John Wick shoots Neo, Neo cannot dodge. And so on and so forth.

  • All combatants must be in tier through the Unlikely - Likely Victory metric. While combatants may be tribunaled for being under tier, they cannot be disqualified mid-tournament for being under tier. However, your characters can be considered out of tier at any time, including if your opponent does not request an OOT review, and you merely overplay your characters. If you're relying on a character being considered OOT to win, however, please request a review. I'm not omnipresent, not yet.

  • Every combatant starts each round being 'teleported' into the arena, knowing full well whomever they face down needs to die or be incapacitated in order for they themselves to advance and win and will do so.

  • All combatants begin without any weapons drawn or abilities active, hands idle at their sides, and the moment they teleport in they can begin combat. All combatants are in-character for the tourney itself. Characters with holsters or similar will begin with their weapons holstered, characters with weapons that cannot feasibly be holstered will begin with the weapons pointed at the ground.

  • Combatants will be treated as bloodlusted for the tribunal.

Gear Rules

There are two options for submitting gear. Standardized Gear and Specialized Gear

  • Standard Gear - Any gear a character has used at least twice, has regular access to, and would likely carry into a random encounter. Examples

Good - Batman has used a grapple gun in Detective Comics #787 and Batman #646. It is standard gear.

Bad - Batman has used the Justice Buster suit in Batman #35 and Batman #36.

The grappling hook is something Batman would reasonably always bring with him. The justice buster is not. Furthermore, all standard gear must be stipulated. If it is not stipulated with at least an “all gear in RT” a character can be assumed not to have it.

  • Specialized Gear: A character gets the gear they possessed in one appearance or set of appearances, but this is the only gear they get. Using the previous example, Batman could be stipulated to have the gear from Batman #35 and #36, but he would not get a grappling hook, as he did not use one in those issues.

Debate Rules

  • To declare an opponent out of tier, make one case for why you believe the opponent to be out of tier, while tagging me and GuyOfEvil, that is under 5,000 characters and part of one of your 3 responses. Your opponent will get one response to this, also under 5,000 characters, and from then on you will have to both argue with the assumption that the character is in-tier, unless you forfeit the match itself and rely entirely on the OOT request.

  • Each competitor must get a response in per 48 hour window, and a minimum of two responses per round. This means you will have to respond in a timely fashion.

  • 1v1s will have orders randomized

  • If you are declared OOT mid-debate, that character is automatically considered a loss. If you still win, you will have to switch to a backup.

  • Rounds will last 4-5 days, each user must respond within 48 hours of the previous response, and have at least two responses in by the end of the debate, unless an extension is granted at my discretion.

Misc Rules

These are largely rulings that I have made that I would like to write down to create a stronger precedent, that were not originally rules in tribunal or sign ups.

  • Speedboosts can be allowed, or disabled with a stipulation. They scale in proportion of the movement and reactions of the base character - a normal human gaining 40x faster reflexes and running would have 250 microsecond reactions in our tournament.

  • Big characters are start relative from where there furthest point is from their front - illustrated here.

  • Summons or 'fake' characters do not count for the purpose of a win condition - for instance, if a mage died in a 1v1 and left behind his 2 zombies, he would still automatically lose. This also applies to hive-minds or drone characters.

  • Characters with multiple bodies or hive-minds start so that the real or main version of that character starts in the standard location, with every other character starting 6 feet behind them, spaced 6 feet apart from the rest of the drones of hive mind characters. Illustrated here.

  • Characters are aware of how arenas function - they know they can be BFRd, certain areas instantly kill them, the water is an out of bounds zone, big characters can't be out of bounds, etc.

  • No arguing that powers don't work because of something like "This arena is in TF2, where physics are different". Seriously. Just don't do it. I swear to god.

Tournament Bracket

Round 3 Matchups

Round 3 will be 1v1s

1 vs 1

2 vs 3

3 vs 2

Debate format is IntroA/IntroB - Response 1A - Response 1B - Response 2A - Response 2B - Response 3A - Response 3B - and then conclusions in any order.

Kirbin vs Chainsaw

Toriko vs Black Canary

Starjun vs Yomi

Classic Hulk vs Diane

Coconut vs Imade

Abomination vs Tatsumi

Ultron vs Escanor

Mindless Hulk vs Natsu

Mihkail vs Ame

Superman vs Brutaal

Ragnarok vs Blanque

Mimic vs Wraith

Verlux vs Ken

Tian vs Sakamaki

Ah Gou vs CaoCao

Huang Long vs Chi Long

Round 3 Arena

The Golden Gate Bridge

  • Combatants will start 25 feet from each other, each one being 12.5 feet from the middle of the bridge.

  • The fight takes place at sunset, with a clear sky.

  • All cars are empty, and each combatant starts next to an empty car. There are no people, and people cannot enter the battlefield.

  • Combatants are prevented from walking off or teleporting either end of the bridge, but can be knocked into the water or drowned. If you can't get back onto the bridge within 10 seconds, you lose.

Good luck, and have fun.

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u/[deleted] Jan 09 '19

Hulk vs Diane

Creation

You made claims that Creation does indeed allow Diane to literally create things, but no actual evidence of that was provided, all you did was use logic on a literal magic power to say "it should work like this so it does," but most of these are things that it seems more likely just weren't thought of or ignored rather than a facet of her power.

If Diane's Creation was literally making more Earth

  • Why has this never been stated as an application of the ability

  • Why has she never made something from nothing?

  • Presuming she can only make more of something that already exists, why is there not a single factual case of her doing so, you're only claims have been "well she could be doing it here or it should exist for this to work" and yet there isn't even a singular case where it's objective that she is indeed making more of something.

The mountain case is not proof of this, you can clearly see that what she sent up initially is not all of what she sent up, every single one of the following pages has the ground being pulled up and flying up to her construct there isn't proof that she's just making more ground, and all of the pages emphasize objects flying up towards the mountain.

Additionally, whether or not she can create Earth, doesn't give her the ability to create objects this large on this arena, she has never made anything of this size without having a massive amount to work with initially.

  • Diane has also never used her ability in any place with scarcity of material with which to use

Even if she can use Creation in this arena, it'll be an extremely limited one, if she could create material, then I'm sure in the over 200 chapters of the manga she would have objectively done so at least once, but she literally never has, and her power isn't described as that either.

Hulk's Inertia

I don't think most of the feats you showed here are very applicable.

He's also been hit by the Iron Fist, Iron Man, Mjolnir, an atomic cannon specifically fired at him to push him back doesn't budge him, and none of these even moved him.

Mountains

Hulk in his fight with Goom explicitly destroyed a mountain, in the Rocky Mountains there are 100 major summits in the Rocky Mountains, the one with the least elevation is still over 3700 meters at it's peak, Mt Elbert is 4400 meters, there isn't a massive difference between them

Here is the full album of Hulk throwing someone off him, with the ability to weigh as much or more than a mountain does.

Diane has basically 2 strength feats, 2 scaling feats, and then just general scaling to being "stronger than before,"

Although if it's a mountain, it's clearly not a very large one although there is no technical definition of a mountain, this one is definitely on the low end of them.

We agree that the dungeon isn't very large, and it's also partially hollow, while they broke it by arm wrestling both of them were clearly trying quite hard and took a bit of time to actually collapse the dungeon, Hulk didn't break the mountain that he broke with direct blows either.

and not very much of it either.

Except, not actually.

Diane's intial blow did send a good amount into the air, but as you can clearly tell it's not enough to form the mountain, and the next few pages have more and more of the ground fly into the air which then forms the mountain.

Her initial strike wasn't even very much, the ground just continued to tear itself from the earth and fly up into the air.

And scaling isn't much to be argued with, she was this strong and now she's stronger, by how much? Who knows.

Jumps

Hulk's walking speed is hardly noteworthy, he barely has any feats at all and none that could even be called superhuman, and yet his jumps are faster than jets, fast enough to nearly exit the Earth's orbit, faster than an already flying off missile, they're very clearly quite superior to his general speed.

He also jumps hard enough to knock people on his level around, and he does this several times, his RT has nearly 3 dozen examples of Hulk slamming into people with his jumps and knocking them around.

Conclusion

Diane's power is still weakened in this area, even if you do assume she can do something she has never done before, arguing that she can do it to such an extent that the arena doesn't weaken her it all is completely unfounded, and physically she doesn't have the feats to win against Hulk with her power in this state, almost all of her big moves are based on having a ton of Earth to work with IE the mountain, and in terms of pure physicals she has no feats of her own that are Hulk level, and the feats that she does scale to aren't very good either.

/u/Chainsaw__Monkey

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u/Chainsaw__Monkey ​ Jan 10 '19

Because I'm short on time here, I'm just going to point out that my opponent is wrong a lot.

Black Canary vs. Toriko

Toriko's Ultimate Routine didn't instantly kill Starjun because Starjun is stronger than Toriko is, the person who taught Toriko the technique says he couldn't create an image strong enough to kill Toriko,

No, he said he couldn't find one.

but he was still capable of both giving himself severe ulcers and curing them by using impression, and states that believing in the impression is what makes it real.

Which Toriko uses to make forks and knives, and hit harder. This isn't an instakill wincon at the speed of thought.

Starjun was already aware of Ultimate Routine and even capable of using it himself

Unsourced for the duration of the debate.

Toriko still one shots Canary with basically the after math of his attacks, the 36 fold Spiked Punch that split the waterfall is weaker than just his standard Spiked Punch at this point in the manga, and a 17 Fold was strong enough that the wind produced by it sent several people flying and bent several trees.

Irrelevant reaching. I've already established that cone shape coming forward from his punches doesn't work at melee range.

There's also not really a reason for him to go into melee range, he started in melee range against Starjun and his strongest attacks are melee range and he already knew that Starjun was probably even more powerful than he was, against an enemy of unknown strength who starts out of his melee range, he has literally no reason to go into melee range.

You're using a character from a specific arc with their motivation from that arc. Suggesting that they behave differently is absurd.

And against Starjun, he opens with a Leg Knife.

I didn't have enough space/time to address this earlier, but I do now. The initial leg knife is not an attack on Starjun, because later on they say this is the first time he guarded despite the clear guarding arms in the leg knife scan.

the opening move against Gaoh, created a huge cut in the ground that traveled hundreds of meters

How far it traveled after passing Gaoh is irrelevant, Toriko and Gaoh are close to the point that it is immediately visually apparent.

Toriko is skilled enough to avoid a blow from something ten times faster than him, while his weight is being doubled by intense gravity

Even in this scan they make it beast specific. Black Canary might be abusive, but she isn't a beast.

giving him precision and smoothness of his movements

Unquantifiable hype with no degree

Canary generally doesn't seem that eager to use the Cry outright and when she does not very strong versions of it, of the scans where she uses it in cases that would affect Toriko significant every single one is against characters whom she already knows and it seems doubtful if there are many, if any, cases of her just using a Canary Cry that would significantly harm a character at this tier at the outset of the fight.

Pure assertion with no evidence whatsoever. I've linked a multitude of scans where Black Canary opens against her opponents with the cry. Toriko's stature alone is sufficient to warrant it.

Conclusion

Toriko cannot win a ranged battle with Black Canary. All of his ranged attacks are inferior in power to Black Canary's. He cannot win a melee battle, as the AoE from his strikes is all projected forward from somewhere on the end of the limb as the strike completes, and the Cry is still viable. Additionally, Canary can cry as Toriko closes distance.

Yomi vs. Starjun

OOT Request

My opponent's OOT request is a last ditch effort in a losing battle. I did not quantify colorful adjectives at any point, as it was not necessary to battle my opponent with regards to magnitude of destruction on anything other than a superficial level. Just as my opponent did not quantify his mountain busting feats. If he had said the mountain Toriko pierced was "massive" I would have grilled him for "how massive is it", my opponent did not ask for quantification.

The Match

Your calc assumes that Toriko's cutlery is the size of a normal fork or knife, this is completely wrong, here are four examples of them being obviously larger, and a fifth, and a sixth, and a seventh, and an eighth.

I would be wrong if the forks and knives in the scan didn't have a readily apparent size. Fortunately, they do. The only forks and knives that close to the viewpoint are still notably smaller than a single leg of Starjun in the scan, and the far away ones are specs relative to him. Your arbitrary and baseless claim of 4 feet is unsupported by this specific scan. Toriko's ability to create a variety of sizes for forks and knives does not make this instance better.

As such, your entire calc is based on a faulty and dishonest premise.

There's also the time frame, I don't see how you came to conclusion that Starjun "had until they got to him"

The forks and knives come from a considerable distance toward Starjun. They had not reached him yet. Starjun uses burner knife while they approach and they are all destroyed prior to making contact with him. Hiei destroy's Bui's axe with the flat of his palm on contact. The maximum amount of time for Hiei's action involves a shorter time period than Starjun's action.

In terms of the growth of characters resistant to heat, the "meager factor of 100" statement from you isn't backed up by the series,

Factually inaccurate. Yusuke would have been killed by a second hit from an attack that that would vaporize a human. Hiei melted iron in milliseconds. Iron melts at 1538 Celsius, water vaporizes at 100 Celsius. A person is generally less than 70 kg, Bui's Axe is over 290 kg. So Hiei raised the temperature 15 times more on something 4 times larger. So 60 times more for Hiei's most casual heat by the end of the Dark Tournament.

https://imgur.com/a/mZ8NacE

This is an outlier on the lower end. This entire interaction with Sniper is nonsensical and counteracted by nearly every feat from the Dark Tournament onward. A weaker version of Yusuke did this. Also, there's no indication that Yusuke's worry was the heat, so even if this wasn't a complete outlier, this wouldn't help your argument.

In your previous response you stated that I only used feats from early YYH characters being vulnerable to cutting, which is not true,

This isn't what I said, don't lie.

"The example Kirbin used to say that YYH characters are particularly vulnerable to cutting is indigenous. " I don't know why I said indigenous, that makes no sense there. I meant to say something like "misleading" or "irrelevant".

Two characters of near equal power cutting each other isn't useful for your argument that YYH characters are weak to cutting. What was useful was a stronger character being cut by weaker character. This was misleading because nobody at that point in the series was going to just not get cut by a sword.

there's also very high B-Class Yusuke clearly being vulnerable to knives "but they were chi infused" by Sniper, a character objectively far below Yusuke in spiritual energy, who Hiei was also very easily capable of piercing.

My opponent is being deliberately misleading again. Sniper was part of a group of characters with somewhat absolute powers that were non-traditional to the series. They were generally normal people, but had special abilities. Example: Kaito was able to trap Hiei's Soul because Hiei violated the rules of Kaito's territory. Additionally, guidebooks put Sniper's threat level at A-class despite having C-class physicals.

The first mountain I disagree on the size on, you can see the treeline sure, but I do not think that is the cloudline,

Well, you can be wrong. Those are clouds, that is the line they have as a distinction from the rest of the skybox, lightning is coming out of them.

in the page where Yusuke arrives to the Demon World, the clouds are well above any of those structures and it's the same in the page after it's destroyed, the clouds are visibly way above it,

These two scans don't support that the previous thing isn't the cloudline. They would have been useful if I had tried to make an objective calculation based on the cloudline in the previous scan, but I didn't. Also, using the destroyed scan is sus, as we've already established that a significant majority of it was destroyed. If you look at the point at which it breaks, at least four times more of it is above the break. IE, in the aftermath scan if you increase the distance from the trees fourfold, it's not remotely outlandish to compare it to the clouds.

It's not like the trees in the Demon World are particularly large

In most scans with trees, the trees do not have a uniform size also, trees being visible at the base of a mountain is normal I have no idea why people think otherwise.

The pillar also still seems fairly small, the translation you're using is a fan translation, in the official one they just call it a pillar

I'll concede this, as I didn't know I was using the wrong translation. Also it isn't relevant because I use reference objects anyway

and I'm also pretty sure those "mountains" around it are literally trees

I'm 100% these are supposed to be mountains.

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u/Chainsaw__Monkey ​ Jan 10 '19

Closing Argument/Conclusion

My opponent has used a myriad of tactics to try and discredit Yomi's abilities. He has dropped multiple arguments after being rebutted. Yomi has the damage output, the durability and the skill to deal with Starjun. Here's the kicker though, Toriko busted a small mountain. In the first image, we can see Toriko relative to the vertical face with a downward angle and him farther away than the cliff face(both of which make him appear smaller). The green line is the height of the mountain, the blue line represents the face in front of Toriko The green is ~9.44 times taller than the blue. If we ignore the factors making Toriko appear smaller, and generously say the blue line is 15 times taller than Toriko. As stated by my opponent, Toriko is 7 feet tall. That gives us a mountain that is 991 feet from base to peak. Additionally, Toriko didn't blow up the mountain, he punctured it, the cracks propagated and the mountain failed under its own weight. Even if you accepted my opponent's unquantified lowballing of Yusuke's feats and minimized his scaling to Yomi, they are still better than this, so Yomi wins.

Diane vs. Hulk

Creation

I didn't say Diane could create something from nothing, I said she can make things that are larger than the material she pulls from. I have supported this with multiple instances of evidence, some of which my opponent has ignored, and some of which my opponent has misunderstood. I will restate my case.

  1. Mother Catastrophe: As stated previously, the mountain that Diane leaves after dropping it is physically larger by a massive margin than the entire Vaizel area she pulled from. The highest point in Vaizel was about as tall as Gideon, the mountain on top of Vaizel dwarfs that and covers the entire area. There's over 800 vertical feet of mountain left above ground.
  2. Diane makes three golems while standing on a pillar, one of the golems is Diane's size, this doesn't cause any material to be pulled from the stone pillar

Diane has also never used her ability in any place with scarcity of material with which to use

She isn't in one. She's on a bridge made of materials she can use held up by materials she can use.

described as that either

This isn't a description of how creation works, it's a list of two things that giants are capable of.

Hulk in his fight with Goom explicitly destroyed a mountain, in the Rocky Mountains there are 100 major summits in the Rocky Mountains, the one with the least elevation is still over 3700 meters at it's peak, Mt Elbert is 4400 meters, there isn't a massive difference between them

My opponent continues to conflate the peak elevation of a mountain with its total size despite the correction. Gothic Mountain has an elevation gain of 2,332 feet. Additionally, this doesn't address the "how destroyed" or that one of them was only the peak. Also, Gorm's feat involves a multitude of hits and the mountain was falling apart in the first panel of the scan.

Hulk's Inertia

Hold up, you don't know the context of your own character's durability feats, but you felt confident enough to assert "Hitting Hulk doesn't launch Hulk, 99% of the time unless you're more powerful than him". I refuse to allow you retreat to a more tenable point. You said this, it's wrong.

How strong is this guy? And it seems more like he's using some form of telekinesis to launch Hulk

Not strong enough to significantly hurt Hulk, which disagrees with your assertion.

He was in mid air, and hit hard enough to "atomize instantly, and scattered to the four corners of the Earth" but is fine after.

The fact that he's fine disagrees with your assertion that you must be stronger than Hulk to launch him. Him being fine is not relevant to him being launched.

This looks more like he jumped back than was launched back

Read the narration, "It takes more than a mere explosive shock wave to kill the mightiest mortal the world has ever known"

He was in mid air

So he had more inertia because he was moving forward, thanks for pointing that out. Also, doesn't matter with regards to your 99% statement.

He's also been hit by the Iron Fist, Iron Man, Mjolnir, an atomic cannon specifically fired at him to push him back doesn't budge him, and none of these even moved him.

Literally gets moved in one of these scans

Meliodas swinging a twig and splitting a mountain in two

Assuming the tree is 30 feet tall, which is entirely reasonable, the mountain is roughly 400 feet tall. I agree it's small. But this is someone less than a fifth of the power of the Diane I'm using destroying it with the shockwave from swinging a stick.

Meliodas and Ban break a dungeon by arm wrestling

I haven't really used this much, and it isn't a lynchpin of my argument. You're attack evidence I'm mostly using to say point out how scaling works.

Diane breaks part of a mountain

I literally said this wasn't very good

Diane sends a lot of ground into the air which forms into a mountain

I haven't represented this as impressive for any reason other than the mountain dropping after. This is attacking another point I haven't made.

And scaling isn't much to be argued with, she was this strong and now she's stronger, by how much? Who knows.

We know, I have given a minimum for the scaling as linear which you haven't refuted in any meaningful manner.

Hulk's walking speed is hardly noteworthy, he barely has any feats at all and none that could even be called superhuman,

My opponent provides no evidence for Hulk's baseline compared to his jumping, and conflates walking with his base movespeed.

they're very clearly quite superior to his general speed.

But you didn't establish a factor at all and have provided zero evidence beyond assertion for the base speed. Additionally you still haven't provided a reason that it's 762 m/s or faster, which is what it needs.

He also jumps hard enough to knock people on his level around, and he does this several times, his RT has nearly 3 dozen examples of Hulk slamming into people with his jumps and knocking them around.

Never said otherwise.

Closing Argument/Conclusion

Diane is not disadvantaged significantly by the amount of material around her, as she can make objects that are larger than the base components. Her physicals are good enough to compete. My opponent was objectively wrong about Diane throwing her opponents, and hasn't brought it up since I proved him wrong. My opponent has failed to context that if Hulk leaves the bridge he can't get back. He gave up on the mountain stalling him. He has no meaningful refutation of my scaling other than just saying "no".

Also, there's my ace in the hole. The King Golem, the King Golem oneshotted the Drole Golem with a punch that removed most of it's chest. The Drole Golem dwarfs Albion in terms of power. Even if you accept my opponent's fallacious argument that Diane's creation abilities are limited, that just leads her more heavily to using the Golem. With this, Diane summons an additional mountain buster to occupy Hulk and help BFR or outright defeat him.