r/whowouldwin • u/Verlux • Mar 11 '19
Event The Great Debate Season 7 Round 2!!!
Rules
Out of Tier Rules
- For Out of Tier requests, simply ping myself and/or Chainsaw__Monkey and state your case for why you believe someone's combatant is out of tier, then proceed with the debate as per normal. We will evaluate that request individual of the debate itself and make our decision in judgments. A short defense of the OOT is acceptable, a prolonged debate over it will be outright ignored
Battle Rules
Speed is to be equalized to a base of 50 m/s combat and movement speed, with their reactions scaled down/up relatively. Speed boosts via abilities, however, are indeed allowed to make one surpass this base speed threshold. Projectile speed maintains relative velocity compared to the combatant it originates from; a human scaled up to this speed firing a gun means their bullet moves as fast to a person moving 50 m/s as a bullet does to us as normal humans.
Battleground: The Great Debate arena has traveled across fiction, from a coliseum, to the Mines of Moria, to Asgard herself. Now, however, we bring the Great Debate to the real world: Enjoy destroying parts of the Panama Canal. A multiple-kilometer-long canal through which much trade and cargo moves via freight boat, the Canal consists of a series of locks which are 320 meters long, 33 meters in width, and 41 meters deep. The battlefield itself will be 3 locks long, and an additional 100 meters width extending beyond the locks' width. Each lock will be filled to the brim with ocean water, and contain a 50 meter long, 20 meter wide, 10 meter tall battleship (with no armaments of any sort, yet it has full oil and fuel) in the exact center of the lock. Combatants start opposite each other, with either team opposite the middlemost lock of the battlefield, facing each other from across the lock just 10 meters to the left of the battleship in it, standing 5 meters back from the lock and in a line spaced 2 meters apart from their allies. Every combatant starts each round being 'teleported' into the arena, knowing full well whomever they face down needs to die or be incapacitated in order for they themselves to advance and win and will do so, and with knowledge of their allies' weapons and abilities. All combatants begin without any weapons drawn or abilities active, hands idle at their sides, weapons holstered, and the moment they teleport in they can begin combat. All combatants are in-character for the tourney itself. Of special note: the edge of the arena consists of a thick wall of unobtanium, a non-magnetic, non-conducting alloy with infinite density that is impossible to manipulate or harm and exists outside the laws of physics, coming to a dome that covers the entire arena. Contestants slammed into it will indeed be harmed by the impact, but suffer no drawbacks from the infinite density.
Submission Rules
- Tier: Must be able to win an unlikely victory, draw/near draw, or likely victory against Neo in the conditions outlined above. All entrants will be bloodlusted against Neo, meaning they will act fully rationally and put down their opponent in the quickest, most efficient manner possible regardless of morality, utilizing any and all possible techniques/tactics/attacks if necessary. The bloodlust does not give any foreknowledge of Neo or his capabilities.
Debate Rules
Rounds will last 4-5 days, hopefully from Monday until Thursday or Friday of each week of the tourney; there is a 48 hour time limit both on starting (we do not care who starts, you and your opponent can figure that out) AND on responses, AND ADDITIONALLY each user MUST get in two responses or else be disqualified. If one user waits until the very last minute to force this rule to DQ their opponent without any forewarning to their opponents or the tournament supervisors, they will be removed from this tournament, no exceptions.
Format for each round: both respondents get Intro + 1st Response, then 2nd response, then a 3rd response and closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. EACH RESPONSE MUST BE NO LONGER THAN THREE REDDIT COMMENTS LONG WITH A HARD CAP OF 25,000 CHARACTERS SPLIT BETWEEN THE THREE.
Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are determined by randomization. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa. First Round will be determined by coin flip.
Brackets Here
Last round was 3v3, thus this round shall be:
1v1 Individual Fights
Round 2 Ends Friday March 15th, 23:59 CST
Format for each round: both respondents get Intro + 1st Response, then 2nd response, then a 3rd response and closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. EACH RESPONSE MUST BE NO LONGER THAN THREE REDDIT COMMENTS LONG WITH A HARD CAP OF 25,000 CHARACTERS SPLIT BETWEEN THE THREE.
Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are randomized based on sign up order via an internet list randomizer. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa. First Round will be determined by coin flip, and as it is 3v3s, next shall be 1v1, and so on and so forth.
Randomization is as follows: Taking from sign-up order:
- 1st Combatant vs 3rd Combatant
- 2nd Combatant vs 1st Combatant
- 3rd Combatant vs 2nd Combatant
1
u/xWolfpaladin Mar 13 '19
Amazo vs Maniac 5
Amazo presents a general physical superiority that means Maniac will not be able to consistently defeat him. In addition to this, the arguments my opponent relied on would not actually meaningfully affect Amazo.
Generally, I would prefer to explain why I win first, but as my opponent falsely presumed that he had two attacks that would one shot Amazo, he did not address this, so I will explain why both of his win conditions are faulty before moving on to why I win.
Feats that deal with the physical aspect or technological aspect of the combatants will be referred to Maniac 2/3/5, and feats that deal with characterization or similar will refer to him as just 'Frank'.
Rebuttals
Rebuttal part 1 - Amazo vs Power Draining
In this scan, we see Maniac 3 shrink down to interface with a small CPU and drain it of its power. My opponent takes this to mean "Maniac 3 can freely absorb the power from machines", when it doesn't.
For one, draining power requires him to physically get up close and personal with the CPU he is interfacing into, and plug into it, like any other cable plugging into a port.
Not only does Amazo not have convenient ports for his enemies to plug into, his entire exterior is just smooth metal. There is nothing for him to plug into, Maniac 3 doesn't have the feats to pierce Amazo even if you just assume Amazo is as durable as normal metal, Frank was told to drain the CPU power, there's nothing saying he would think of it here.
My opponent also presumes that Maniac 3 can instantly shut down any machine, regardless of complexity, electrical power, or similar, that Amazo is unable to see Maniac 3, that Amazo can't feel something attached to him and attack it. I could explain more about why this isn't applicable, but Maniac 3 being able to drain Amazo of his power by interfacing to him is like trying to plug an extension cord into a brick of aluminum. None of Amazo's relevant cybernetics are unprotected, and Amazo isn't hollow. The feat is not applicable in the slightest.
Rebuttal part 2 - Amazo vs Tele-Presence
My opponent makes two major assumptions here
Because Frank can go into other Maniacs that do not have a brain, he can go into any robot that doesn't have a brain.
Frank jumps into Maniacs when his body is destroyed, and therefore would jump into Amazo.
Let's get the biggest problem with this out of the way - nowhere has my opponent shown that Frank can jump into robots in generals. He can jump into other Maniac robots, but he never shows Frank using this ability freely.
For one, this scan does not say "Frank can switch into anything without a brain." This scan implies that having a brain means that Frank cannot switch into a robot, which is a crucial difference. This is a Maniac 6 robot, and Frank specifically jumps between Maniac robots, which is an established ability for him.
Two, Frank jumping into bodies when he is destroyed does not mean that he automatically jumps into Amazo when his body is eventually destroyed. Again, Frank is only shown jumping into other maniac bodies.
Frank being able to jump freely between other Maniac robots is consistent, established, and makes sense within the context of his setting. He goes between robots using a computer network, and all of the robots are made by the same people, in the same setting, with the same general kind of technology.
Amazo is not even tangentially associated with any of this in any way. For one, obviously, Amazo is in an entirely different universe, in a time period with completely different technology. There is literally nothing suggesting Frank can telepresence into Amazo, because Amazo is nothing like the Maniac. Amazo is a highly experimental test on nano-technology. He is not a conventional robot in any capacity.
Two, Amazo does not give or receive signals, so there's nothing to say Frank can transfer his consciousness into Amazo from a signal.
Three, this is, again, Frank being told to do something and then doing it, there's nothing to suggest he would try to do what my opponent is saying without outside help, Maniac 6 is about to destroy him in the aforementioned scan.
My opponent's two justifications for how Frank would act in-character are
Frank saying he has no idea what to do, and then being told to do something
Frank getting his ass handed to him, and then being told to do something
In Conclusion
My opponent's scans do not say what my opponent says they do, he is severely misinterpreting them, and is using other characters telling Frank to do things as evidence for Frank doing things.
Point 1 - Amazo is much physically stronger than Maniac 5
Amazo consistently dismantles Maniac 5 in melee combat.
Maniac 5's top striking feat is striking Maniac 6 with sufficient energy to send him flying and create a crater, which I believe sends people flying again.
However, the energy to send people flying... it's nothing, it's basically irrelevant, it's only good because it's as a result of Maniac 5 punching someone else.
Amazo is exactly physically equal to DCAU Superman. This is more than him physically matching Superman, as anyone familiar with Amazo already knows, he can copy the stats of his opponents.
Superman is notable for the following feats
By punching Darkseid, he creates a shockwave capable of moving rocks around him, sending him flying through 4 skyscrapers. Then, when knocking Darkseid straight down, he creates a feat almost identical to the tier setter Neo feat but without the notable shockwave/water movement.
By matching Shazam's punch with his own, they create enough energy to create a shockwave that shatters glass, and sends Shazam flying like a projectile to cause a significant amount of damage to a building
In comparison, Maniac 5's feat is worse in every way. He moves less mass, busts less material, and has a more efficient method of transferring energy when comparing Superman creating shockwaves and turning people into projectiles with enough energy to cause large amounts of destruction. Additionally, Maniac 5 is not creating the energy of the earthquake himself, as my opponent claims, he is punching Maniac 6 straight up, causing Maniac 6 to land, and the weight of him falling is what causes the extremely minor earthquake.
Now, I won't call this an anti-feat, because super-impact is a very common trope in fiction, but since the energy to send three humans flying is borderline irrelevant, and the only knowledge we have of his weight is "most likely heavy enough to send humans flying when he lands", this just means that his weight is, at some arbitrarily large highball, in the thousands of tons. This is pathetic for the tier, Neo strikes hard enough to move 3 million tons 1 foot.
This is Maniac 5's second best striking feat, which, congratulations, is at best equivalent to Superman tossing an enemy.
Maniac 3 has no relevant physicals, as my opponent and I both agree.
Maniac 2 has an okay strength feat, but my opponent stipulated it out. It's also grappling/lifting strength, and absolutely pathetic compared to Superman, who can lift a ship casually, which generally far exceed 20,000 tons. There's also the feat of throwing Maniac 2 throwing Maniac 4, but this is unquantifiable due to Maniac 4 being very heavy, we cannot determine how hard Maniac 2 threw him, and it's worse than the feats I've shown.
Maniac 2 also has feats for his flight, but the feats are worse than my feats, and both of them rely on Maniac 2 flying into his opponents with a buildup, which my opponent treats as the ultimate sin in the Smith matchup.
My opponent will likely use Maniac 4 scaling to justify this being good, but at no point does Maniac 2 meaningfully harm or do anything other than inconvenience or knock over Maniac 4.
In Conclusion
Maniac 5's feats are misinterpreted by my opponent, and not anywhere near the level of the tier setter, or my own characters. Maniac 2's only striking is failing to harm a durable opponent.