The Great Debate Season 7 Round 2!!!

[u/Verlux]

Rules

---

Out of Tier Rules

• For Out of Tier requests, simply ping myself and/or Chainsaw__Monkey and state your case for why you believe someone's combatant is out of tier, then proceed with the debate as per normal. We will evaluate that request individual of the debate itself and make our decision in judgments. A short defense of the OOT is acceptable, a prolonged debate over it will be outright ignored

---

---

Battle Rules

• Speed is to be equalized to a base of 50 m/s combat and movement speed, with their reactions scaled down/up relatively. Speed boosts via abilities, however, are indeed allowed to make one surpass this base speed threshold. Projectile speed maintains relative velocity compared to the combatant it originates from; a human scaled up to this speed firing a gun means their bullet moves as fast to a person moving 50 m/s as a bullet does to us as normal humans.

• Battleground: The Great Debate arena has traveled across fiction, from a coliseum, to the Mines of Moria, to Asgard herself. Now, however, we bring the Great Debate to the real world: Enjoy destroying parts of the Panama Canal. A multiple-kilometer-long canal through which much trade and cargo moves via freight boat, the Canal consists of a series of locks which are 320 meters long, 33 meters in width, and 41 meters deep. The battlefield itself will be 3 locks long, and an additional 100 meters width extending beyond the locks' width. Each lock will be filled to the brim with ocean water, and contain a 50 meter long, 20 meter wide, 10 meter tall battleship (with no armaments of any sort, yet it has full oil and fuel) in the exact center of the lock. Combatants start opposite each other, with either team opposite the middlemost lock of the battlefield, facing each other from across the lock just 10 meters to the left of the battleship in it, standing 5 meters back from the lock and in a line spaced 2 meters apart from their allies. Every combatant starts each round being 'teleported' into the arena, knowing full well whomever they face down needs to die or be incapacitated in order for they themselves to advance and win and will do so, and with knowledge of their allies' weapons and abilities. All combatants begin without any weapons drawn or abilities active, hands idle at their sides, weapons holstered, and the moment they teleport in they can begin combat. All combatants are in-character for the tourney itself. Of special note: the edge of the arena consists of a thick wall of unobtanium, a non-magnetic, non-conducting alloy with infinite density that is impossible to manipulate or harm and exists outside the laws of physics, coming to a dome that covers the entire arena. Contestants slammed into it will indeed be harmed by the impact, but suffer no drawbacks from the infinite density.

---

---

Submission Rules

• Tier: Must be able to win an unlikely victory, draw/near draw, or likely victory against Neo in the conditions outlined above. All entrants will be bloodlusted against Neo, meaning they will act fully rationally and put down their opponent in the quickest, most efficient manner possible regardless of morality, utilizing any and all possible techniques/tactics/attacks if necessary. The bloodlust does not give any foreknowledge of Neo or his capabilities.

---

---

Debate Rules

• Rounds will last 4-5 days, hopefully from Monday until Thursday or Friday of each week of the tourney; there is a 48 hour time limit both on starting (we do not care who starts, you and your opponent can figure that out) AND on responses, AND ADDITIONALLY each user MUST get in two responses or else be disqualified. If one user waits until the very last minute to force this rule to DQ their opponent without any forewarning to their opponents or the tournament supervisors, they will be removed from this tournament, no exceptions.

• Format for each round: both respondents get Intro + 1st Response, then 2nd response, then a 3rd response and closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. EACH RESPONSE MUST BE NO LONGER THAN THREE REDDIT COMMENTS LONG WITH A HARD CAP OF 25,000 CHARACTERS SPLIT BETWEEN THE THREE.

• Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are determined by randomization. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa. First Round will be determined by coin flip.

---

---

Brackets Here

Last round was 3v3, thus this round shall be:

1v1 Individual Fights

Round 2 Ends Friday March 15th, 23:59 CST

• Format for each round: both respondents get Intro + 1st Response, then 2nd response, then a 3rd response and closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. EACH RESPONSE MUST BE NO LONGER THAN THREE REDDIT COMMENTS LONG WITH A HARD CAP OF 25,000 CHARACTERS SPLIT BETWEEN THE THREE.

• Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are randomized based on sign up order via an internet list randomizer. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa. First Round will be determined by coin flip, and as it is 3v3s, next shall be 1v1, and so on and so forth.

• Randomization is as follows: Taking from sign-up order:

  • 1st Combatant vs 3rd Combatant
  • 2nd Combatant vs 1st Combatant
  • 3rd Combatant vs 2nd Combatant

---

---

Links to:

Hype Post

Sign Ups

Tribunal

Round 1

[u/feminist-horsebane]

Part II: Vader vs. Guilliman; Counter Rebuttal

Roboute isn't without skill feats. A snippet from here suggests he was holding his own quite well against the Bloodthirster Skarbrand

This scan shows he landed a singular blow, and then went on to say Guillman was "barely block or evading each blow". This doesn't tell me anything about his skill- if anything, it makes me think less of it.

And when you have another Bloodthirster hit hard enough to one shot Sangunius bones, it's suffice to say that Guilliman is quite skilled if he's holding his own against an opponent whose striking hard enough to potentially break his bones in one shot

That implies nothing of the sort, honestly. I still don't have any feats for these Bloodthirsters, so we don't know how skilled they are. Being able to hold your own against someone stronger than you isn't a skill feat, it's a durability feat. Just saying that they're strong doesn't mean they're skilled.

Why would Guillman fare poorly against Vader trying to TK his weapon(s) away?

Because being able to "rip your way up through the tumbled mountain of wreckage" (he doesn't lift a hundred tons like you say, he tunnels up through it) doesn't mean you can resist something being yanked from your hand with similar force. He would need to have grip/lifting strength comparable to Vader in a singular hand, which his RT doesn't suggest.

whose only feat is stopping a single AT AT leg

Vader has other feats than that one

I am not certain why the warpflame would be an anti-feat, especially when its coming from literally the strongest wizard in the setting

That's a fair point, i'll concede that.

Given how Leman outright said that he could win by spitting on Lorgar, versus "I would beat the other guys", it's fairly certain that Leman Russ is stronger than Lorgar

But Lorgar cracks him in the head and does decent damage. The gap between them can't be that wide.

Well...depends...not always...

I can find scans for days of him not wearing it as well. The RT has a feat of him taking damage to his head without it, so that's how i'm interpreting him.

Even from a casual eyeballing, I don't think you can say that an AT AT leg by itself would be in the tons

I think "tons" is more than fair. This scan calcs AT-AT's as, total, weighing by the hundreds of tons. I'm not married to this source, so take it with some salt, but it makes sense. Not to mention he isn't just lifting the leg independently, he's lifting the leg as it tries to come down, meaning the AT-AT is supporting its weight on that leg, and Vader is supporting it.

Guilliman isn't as unskilled as my opponent is suggesting, especially considering the myriad of times he's fought physically more powerful opponents and managed to deal with them.

As stands, he's exactly that unskilled. Beating people more powerful than you doesn't mean you're more skilled than them, especially without context provided. The only evidence you've presented to suggest Guilliman's skill is that he punched a guy, and then struggled to block his other attacks. As for the "stronger guys" that he's beaten- how? Does he just shoot them? Do they not have weapons and he just stabs them? None of this suggest he has any talent with his sword. Vader, on the other hand, is a master duelist.

In Conclusion: My opponent believes that the sheer brickiness of his character will allow him to win this fight. The problems with this are;

a) He is not skilled enough to contend with Vader.
b) He does not have an answer for Vader being able to passively sense his attacks before they happen, nor is he skilled enough to counter this precog.
c)His ability to even continue holding his weapon when confronted with TK is, at best, tenuous.

This, combined with the fact that his RT proves that headshotting him is a viable technique, means we're essentially seeing a swordfight that plays heavily into Vaders strengths. He should take a comfortable win.

[u/feminist-horsebane → u/feminist-horsebane]

Part III: Thor vs. Superman; Counter-Rebuttal

Not necessarily as shown here

This feat is significantly worse than Thor's other charged strikes, since it isn't amped for as long. He goes from busting glaciers to disrupting concrete in a courtyard. I'm not particularly impressed, and Superman won't be either. You also haven't demonstrated any durability feats for Thor outside of the addressed Hulk scaling, so why shouldn't I think Superman one-shots?

While you refer to this as a "city block lightning attack," the RT describes it as an "energy wave"

I think that if it looks like lightning and sounds like lightning, the Occams Razor is that it's lightning. But you're right, the RT doesn't list it as such, so I'll concede this.

It is demonstrably not true to say that Gungnir isn't heat based as demonstrated by Odin

This scan adds nothing to your argument, you're just showing another scan of Frost Giants being destroyed by gungnir, which no one is contesting. This fails to answer the question; how much heat durability, if any, do these frost giants have? You're resting your cliam that Thor can no sell Supermans heat vision based off of a singular scan of him taking a blast from Gungnir. Not to mention he's not exactly tanking this attack, it sends him through a wall.

In respect to your cold resistance part, Superman's breathe seems to be fairly slow acting, and we are shown that Asgardians do possess inherent cold resistance

A fair point about it not acting immediately, but Heimdals feats are not Thors feats. More to the point, mjolnir doesn't have any cold resisting feats.

While Superman has decidedly greater lifting feats, I do not think it will come to that

You're portraying Thor as acting like some sort of long range lightning sniper. This just isn't how Thor fights. You cite two examples of Thor opening with lightning. To contrast, he doesn't open with it against the Destroyer, Loki, Tony Stark, The Hulk, Ultron, or Kurse. Indeed, in four (Destroyers, Hulk, Ultron, Kurse) of those fights, he doesn't use it at all. So there are, right now, twice as many examples of him not using it in fights at all as there are of him opening with it.

In Conclusion: My opponents argument for why he wins is based off the idea that Thor will immediately one shot with lightning, and can easily resist all of Superman's ranged attacks. What's wrong with this is;

a) Thor normally doesn't open with lightning.
b) It's in character for Thor to not use lightning in his fights at all.
c) Thor's resistance to heat is based off of a singular unquantifiable scan

In character, Thor and Superman will bullrush each other. My opponent has conceded that Thor is at disadvantage in lifting strength, and he has failed to provide adequate scans or scaling for his own fighters durability. His striking feats are not enough to meaningfully damage Superman, so Superman should easily win the fight.

[u/British_Tea_Company → u/feminist-horsebane]

Response 3

Rebuttals (Sakura)

What feats does this shield have to suggest it will stop Roshi? We see it block big chunks of ice, but Roshi's striking power scales to above people who can kick him throw walls.

The ice blocks make rather significant sized holes within the concrete they embed them into as we can see within the scan of her first avoiding one of them, especially when considering Sakura has innate blunt durability in comparison. As per your admission during Response 1, Sakura is liable to take a hit or two from Roshi even without a durability buff. The reverse cannot be said about him.

With speed equalized at 50m/s, this means that the max amount of time it will take Roshi to cross this field is under 7 seconds- that's assuming that the distance is crossed by a single person, with Sakura standing perfectly still.

With it taking 6-7 seconds to cross the battlefield, that limits her abilities severely. The only two abilities you've stipulated to be non-lethal and in character for her to use are "Freeze" and "sword"- sword takes too long, at eight seconds (not to mention avoiding being struck by a ten year old with a sword should be literal childs play for Roshi). If she tries to use this ability, Roshi will reach her before she can activate her shield, and wreck her. If she uses freeze, she can get it off with under half a second to spare, and it being telegraphed will allow Roshi to avoid it- meaning he ends up in her face, with her having a split second to cast shield, a feat she is incapable of doing. Not to mention that even if freeze is used effectively, why can't Roshi just break out of it? Does it have feats suggesting it can stop someone with Roshi's lifting strength, which scales above people who throw cars?

At best, this suggests that she can use those two spells faster than normal. Even that, i'm not convinced of. You're trying to say that she's essentially talking and reacting faster than it's possible for a person to talk or react. Her respect thread makes no mention of this, so i'm not giving it any weight.

Since this tackles the same question of "Are Sakura's spells being spoken in real time", I am going to address these points together.

1. Sakura having upscaled speed means her somatic/verbal components would be done faster by nature of the tournament with the telegraph time being much shorter than you are suggesting. As demonstrated during the Time Card feat, Sakura was capable of supposedly saying and performing verbal/somatic components of equating to roughly 7-8 seconds in the span it takes the Time card to move his hands. That is a VERY small line of telegraph, and one which would likely not be noticeable in slightest.

2. The notion that these two spells would be faster than the norm is rather nil, especially when Sakura says and does a similar incantation/hand motions for Time as she does for all the other spells. Furthermore, when when Sakura isn't the focus of spellcasting, the casting time is rather short. As such, it is more likely than not that Sakura's spellcasting is not being performed in real time and is being done at much, much greater spells than real time.

Largely being the operative word here. Speed equalization does not mean "all attacks are guaranteed to hit everyone." If a character shows the skill to see attacks coming and react to them before they can hurt them, then that's still relevant in the fight.

I wasn't arguing whether or not attacks are guaranteed to hit. I was arguing that raising the point of having better reactions naturally doesn't matter for the sake of this tourney as all reactions are equalized.

Roshi has ranged attacks of his own that he won't hesitate to one shot her with if he needs to, and the distance between them is negligible at these speeds- especially with the cast times the character in question needs. Roshi can clear this distance before she can make use of what little spells she'll use in character, her shields don't have the feats to repel his attacks, and his own ranged attacks give him another advantage.

Having ranged attacks, and using them as an opener aren't the same. Judging from his fight with Krillin, pure melee seems to be more his style. As mentioned previously, due to Sakura's spell casting time being both upscaled and done in short spans to begin with, its not really an issue for her to utilize his lack of defenses against her more esoteric attacks.

Conclusion: While my opponent and I have had an exchange in respects to Sakura's durability as well as the casting time for her spells, my points in respects to Sakura's advantages battlefield control (loop/through), reach advantage (sword), Roshi's ability to resist her more esoteric means of combat (sword, freeze, disintegrate), have went uncontested. As Sakura demonstrates innate durability and an ability to increase said innate durability, it is far more probable she survives being hit than Roshi surviving her attacks. As Roshi lacks resistances to essentially Sakura's entire powerset from and is at various disadvantages while trying to reach melee, while in melee AND trying to keep his opponent in melee, it should be clear that Sakura is the probable winner of this fight.

Rebuttals (Guilliman)

This scan shows he landed a singular blow, and then went on to say Guillman was "barely block or evading each blow". This doesn't tell me anything about his skill- if anything, it makes me think less of it.

Against an opponent of far greater strength? Being able to block his blows is absolutely skill, especially when that difference goes as far Bloodthirsters being capable of breaking another Primarch's legs with a single shot.

That implies nothing of the sort, honestly. I still don't have any feats for these Bloodthirsters, so we don't know how skilled they are. Being able to hold your own against someone stronger than you isn't a skill feat, it's a durability feat. Just saying that they're strong doesn't mean they're skilled.

I am not trying to show Bloodthirsters are skilled. What I am saying here is that the Bloodthirsters are much stronger physically than Primarchs. Being able to overcome an opponent with stat advantages is purely a skill feat, and as mentioned previously, Roboute does not demonstrate any stat advantages against Skarbrand. He is physically weaker as shown by scaling to Sanguinius/Ka'bandha, his attacks can be tanked by Skarbrand while he needs to avoid/block Skarbrand's blows, and he possesses no noticeable speed advantage. The mere fact he is capable of blocking a much stronger opponent's blows, and the fact that he holds his own suggests he is quite skilled.

Because being able to "rip your way up through the tumbled mountain of wreckage" (he doesn't lift a hundred tons like you say, he tunnels up through it) doesn't mean you can resist something being yanked from your hand with similar force. He would need to have grip/lifting strength comparable to Vader in a singular hand, which his RT doesn't suggest.

"He roared as he hurled aside a capacitor unit the size of a Land Raider, and stepped, bloodied but unbroken, into the hard light of Luna."

Even assuming your interpretation is correct that he doesn't lift the entire weight off of him, that is entirely moot as he does arguably better than that. He outright throws at least 72 tons worth of weight, likely significantly more due to the fact that a Land Raider needs to be mostly hollow in order to accommodate for its crew/passengers, and a cross section of a capacitor suggests that they are not. There mere act of being able to throw at least 72 tons of weight, while injured no less suggests Guilliman is easily 100+ tons in terms of strength.

Vader has other feats than that one

I am not even sure any of these feats would be close to 100 tons. The first feat shows him collapsing a statue by tipping it over. Not only is this not a lifting feat to begin with, as pushing is significantly easier than lifting, simple eyeballing to me doesn't suggest this would be a statue weighing even close to the figure presented. The same applies for feat 2 and 3 where collapsing steel girders and a roof doesn't require 100 tons of strength, and the last feat suggests that the ship's engine was failing AND Vader was having a hard time doing it.

But Lorgar cracks him in the head and does decent damage. The gap between them can't be that wide.

My point isn't to demonstrate that the gap between them is too wide, beyond "Guilliman is stronger than Lorgar". My point is that Guilliman would have similar stats across the board as implied by Russ, so it stands to reason that he be capable of surviving 100 million degrees worth of heat, a thing which Darth Vader's lightsaber isn't even close to replicating and as such would not be able to hurt him.

I think "tons" is more than fair. This scan calcs AT-AT's as, total, weighing by the hundreds of tons. I'm not married to this source, so take it with some salt, but it makes sense. Not to mention he isn't just lifting the leg independently, he's lifting the leg as it tries to come down, meaning the AT-AT is supporting its weight on that leg, and Vader is supporting it.

A third party source also isn't exactly the greatest source of weight figures, and even from casual eyeballing, it would look as though a Land Raider has significantly more mass than a single AT-AT leg despite being somewhat smaller over all.

[Continued]

[u/British_Tea_Company → u/British_Tea_Company]

Guilliman Cont

As stands, he's exactly that unskilled. Beating people more powerful than you doesn't mean you're more skilled than them, especially without context provided. The only evidence you've presented to suggest Guilliman's skill is that he punched a guy, and then struggled to block his other attacks. As for the "stronger guys" that he's beaten- how? Does he just shoot them? Do they not have weapons and he just stabs them? None of this suggest he has any talent with his sword. Vader, on the other hand, is a master duelist.

I don't quite agree. If you are capable of beating someone with better stats than you, as absolutely being the case here, you are more skilled then them. That said, I don't even think we need to go that far when Guilliman outright managed to block axe blows from someone significantly stronger than he is.

Conclusion: In a contest of "throwing a 72 ton+ object" versus holding a single leg of an AT-AT leg up, I think its clear cut that Guilliman's strength is significantly more powerful than Vader's TK and would not be hindered much by him. Also worth bringing up is that my opponent has not demonstrated Guilliman would even be hurt by Vader's lightsaber due to the 100 million degree feat shown by a weaker character earlier who as depicted on the cover art of Betrayer linked earlier, does not wear helmets either. Even with the assumption that Vader is more skilled than Guilliman, it is unlikely he could leverage that against an opponent who would effectively no-sell all his means of offense. Things like Guilliman's massive reach advantage by being larger and having a bigger weapon or the coin toss of him wearing a helmet is essentially icing on the cake to what is already an assured victory for him.

Rebuttals (Thor)

This feat is significantly worse than Thor's other charged strikes, since it isn't amped for as long. He goes from busting glaciers to disrupting concrete in a courtyard. I'm not particularly impressed, and Superman won't be either. You also haven't demonstrated any durability feats for Thor outside of the addressed Hulk scaling, so why shouldn't I think Superman one-shots?

Because this is a striking feat and not a durability one? Compared to say this, Thor has a much bigger radius of shattered street and the shockwave propagates much further than Superman's clash with Zod. In addition, Thor wouldn't be one-shot as we know Thor's durability can manage against opponents with stronger strength than himself, namely Hulk.

This scan adds nothing to your argument, you're just showing another scan of Frost Giants being destroyed by gungnir, which no one is contesting. This fails to answer the question; how much heat durability, if any, do these frost giants have? You're resting your cliam that Thor can no sell Supermans heat vision based off of a singular scan of him taking a blast from Gungnir. Not to mention he's not exactly tanking this attack, it sends him through a wall.

First off, I am showing that what is occurring here is Gungnir absolutely is heat based.

Second off, there's a significant difference between arguing no-selling versus possessing resistances to heat, but I digress. While Frost Giants have no demonstrated heat durability beyond presumably having ice powers, the thing which I wanted to showcase earlier was the fact that Thor is able to tank a beam from Gungnir which vaporized them. Heat-based vaporization takes no small amount of yield to perform, especially on a target much larger (and presumably colder) than a human. Thor being able to tank these heat beams suggests he has quite a good deal of heat based durability.

A fair point about it not acting immediately, but Heimdals feats are not Thors feats. More to the point, mjolnir doesn't have any cold resisting feats.

Sure, but they're both literally the same race of people. If I demonstrate that (weaker human) can survive a punch from X alien, its not exactly a stretch of logic to say (stronger human) can survive a punch from the same alien doing the said thing. In addition, while Mjolnir lacks cold resisting feats in of itself, I think its safe to argue that Superman would be significantly harder pressed to perform this when its an ability which takes no small amount of time to fully freeze, something he can't really manage if Thor is actively in his face.

You're portraying Thor as acting like some sort of long range lightning sniper. This just isn't how Thor fights. You cite two examples of Thor opening with lightning. To contrast, he doesn't open with it against the Destroyer, Loki, Tony Stark, The Hulk, Ultron, or Kurse. Indeed, in four (Destroyers, Hulk, Ultron, Kurse) of those fights, he doesn't use it at all. So there are, right now, twice as many examples of him not using it in fights at all as there are of him opening with it.

No one said anything about long range sniping. Zapping someone before you get into touching range versus sniping people are two hugely different things. In addition, Thor literally uses lightning to help kill Ultron. To your point about the Destroyer and Hulk, he was capable of rather easily defeating the destroyer in the part you linked, and he actively needed Hulk to be functional later on against Loki. There are in-character reasons for him to do that.

Against Superman who is an unknown to him AND in conditions where he knows he must defeat Superman, he absolute would start with a lightning shock or lightning charged attack, as demonstrated here where we see him conjuring lightning when Malekith first hits him, and the second strike he lands on Malekith has a shock effect.

And given how Thor's first instinct later on during Infinity War was to strike Thanos first with lightning, it is safe to say he will open up with lightning against foes he needs to win against. As an aside, I am not using this to demonstrate any feats in particular as stipulated, I am using this to demonstrate what an in-character response would be as Thor's ways of dealing with baddies have likely not changed.

Conclusion: Due to the nature of the tournament putting characters in an "in it to win it" mentality, Thor opening up with lightning shock or a lightning amped strike is a real possibility. He is not at a significant striking advantage against Superman, and even if grappled which Superman does not seem to really do as evidenced in his fight against zod, he can still conjure lightning to shock Superman once in touch range. I am also not quite sure why my opponent writes off Gungnir as "unquantifiable" due to the fact that heat based vaporization is pretty clear cut that Thor is tanking absurd amounts of heat, as energy to vaporize a larger than human person who is likely innately cold would absolutely be very difficult. As is, if Thor and Superman decide to blast each other with ranged attacks, Thor would do more damage to Superman than vice-versa. If they decide to man-fight it out, a lightning charged attack is all it really takes to stop Superman. If they were to grapple, we see that Thor while not being able to break out, can still call down Lightning to strike Superman and take the win.

[u/feminist-horsebane → u/British_Tea_Company]

Response Three:

Part I: Sakura vs. Roshi conclusion

The ice blocks make rather significant sized holes within the concrete they embed them into as we can see within the scan

So, strong enough to break concrete? Because Roshi can do that with the tip of his foot. If that’s the requirement to beat these shields, they’re not lasting long.

especially when considering Sakura has innate blunt durability in comparison. As per your admission during Response 1, Sakura is liable to take a hit or two from Roshi even without a durability buff.

She can take one or two attacks before dying/being KO’d. But she doesn’t have any resistance to pressure point attacks, which will immobilize her, making her an easy target. Besides, how long do you think it will take for Master Roshi, the God of Martial Arts, to land sufficient hits on her- especially since she has no recourse in a CQC fight, as she can’t very well summon Sword while being pummeled. Not to mention that again, giving an untrained ten year old girl a sword against a master martial artist is hardly anything that would level the playing field.

Sakura having upscaled speed means her somatic/verbal components would be done faster by nature of the tournament with the telegraph time being much shorter than you are suggesting

But she doesn’t have upscaled speed. The speed that her tournament is set at is faster than her normal speed, but that doesn’t give her the ability to say all of her attacks in the fraction of a second. It just means she’s as fast relative to 50 m/s as she normally would be. Her own respect thread confirms that she has no superhuman speed or reaction. Nowhere in it does it mention her having faster reactions, or being able to talk faster than a regular human being. You’re taking two scans that contradict all the evidence that her spells are cast in normal time, and saying that actually, those two scans are the only ones that are accurate. When a feat this inconsistent is presented, we treat it as an outlier as we rightly should, rather than trying to reverse-engineer every other feat we’ve seen to be compatible with it.

I was arguing that raising the point of having better reactions naturally doesn't matter for the sake of this tourney as all reactions are equalized.

Reactions are not equalized, they’re scaled; "Speed is to be equalized to a base of 50 m/s combat and movement speed, with their reactions scaled down/up relatively"

Roshi's ability to resist her more esoteric means of combat (sword, freeze, disintegrate), have went uncontested.

This is not true. Sword has been talked about at length. The time it takes to cast is just too much. Freeze is viable, but she would have to know to open with it over any of her other attacks, the cast time doesn’t give her the ability to use shield in time. Disintegrate, per your own admission in response two, is not something she would use in character on an old man as soon as the fight starts. You claim she won't use it on an old man charging at her, but you don't provide a reason why.Conclusion: Sakura has horrid durability and even worse cast times. Two inconsistent scans do not change that, especially when they’re being interpreted differently from how the respect thread tells us to interpret them. For order for her to win this fight, she would have to know to immediately open with the only attack that is fast enough to hit Roshi. She would need to have perfect aim and not fall for any after-images, and tag a . The window of opportunity for her to win this fight is just too small. This is an easy win for Roshi.

Part II: Roboute vs. Vader

Against an opponent of far greater strength? Being able to block his blows is absolutely skill

It just isn’t. Withstanding applied force is durability. If I swing a sledgehammer at a concrete pillar, and the pillar doesn't break, does that make the pillar "skilled"? Of course not. Being able to block an attack from a strong opponent and take minimal damage is a durability feat. There is nothing here that suggests that he is able to contend with an extremely talented master duelist. The claim that blocking a strike from a stronger opponent makes him as skilled as Vader is just silly.

He outright throws at least 72 tons worth of weight

I’d question whether “same size” means “same weight.” Per your own admission when you say it’s “likely heavier”, you’re admitting we don’t have the actual weight of this thing he’s tossing.

A third party source also isn't exactly the greatest source of weight figures, and even from casual eyeballing, it would look as though a Land Raider has significantly more mass than a single AT-AT leg despite being somewhat smaller over all.

Again, per your own admission, Land Raiders are mostly hollow, whereas the legs of AT AT’s are not. And as has gone unaddressed, Vader is supporting the weight of the entire AT AT as it rests on that leg.

Also worth bringing up is that my opponent has not demonstrated Guilliman would even be hurt by Vader's lightsaber due to the 100 million degree feat shown by a weaker character earlier who as depicted on the cover art of Betrayer linked earlier, does not wear helmets either.

So, because a similar character once didn’t wear a helmet and at another time and place was hurt by a 100 million degree explosion- we’re assuming that all Primarchs have the same heat durability whether they’re armored or not? That’s just too hard of a sell for me.

Things like Guilliman's massive reach advantage by being larger and having a bigger weapon

Him being bigger also makes him much less maneuverable at close range. Vader kills things bigger than him all the time.

the coin toss of him wearing a helmet

The feats we’re given to measure his durability show that a headshot is a viable way to take him down. As such, that’s how he’s being interpreted.

Conclusion: it doesn't matter how strong Roboute is if he can't hit his opponent. He has no skill feats, and the wonky scaling presented here doesn't make him a swordsman on par with Vader, or anywhere close. He has no answer to the passive precognition that Vader uses in his fights. He may be durable, but he is not without weakness. Even if Roboute can resist his TK, he still is little more than a flailing beast in this fight.

Continued below

[u/feminist-horsebane → u/feminist-horsebane]

Part III: Thor vs. Superman preface; Out of Tier Request

First of all, u/Verlux I would like to request an out of tier tribunal for Thor. As my opponent is attempting to argue Thor Odinson, he is blatantly above tier and will one shot Tier Setter Neo in a heartbeat.

This is my opponents interpretation of the fight Thor will be in against Superman (who, like Neo, by my own admission has no lightning resistance):

Against Superman who is in an unknown to him AND in conditions where he knows he must defeat Superman, he aboslute would start with a lightning shock or lightning charged attack

This is also applicable to Neo. Even more so, given that tribunals are bloodlusted. So right off the bat, Neo gets one shot apparently. But if he somehow dodges, and that doesn't happen;

He is not at significant striking advantage against Superman...and even if grappled...he can still conjure lightning to shock Superman once in range.

This, again, also applies to Neo. So, even at close range, Neo still would be one shot by a bloodlusted Thor. Continuing;

If they decide to man-fight it out, a lightning charged attack is all it really takes to stop Superman

This is still applicable to Neo. If these lightning attacks are an insta-win for Thor, then there’s no way that Neo- who lacks any resistance to lightning or means of attack outside of melee combat- could ever win.

Now, with that out of the way;
Part III: Thor vs. Superman

Because this is a striking feat and not a durability one? Compared to say this, Thor has a much bigger radius of shattered street and the shockwave propagates much further than Superman's clash with Zod

He's breaking apart a courtyard, whereas the shockwave in the Supes/Zod one seems to be blocks.

In addition, Thor wouldn't be one-shot as we know Thor's durability can manage against opponents with stronger strength than himself, namely Hulk

The only scaling you’ve provided in this fight for Thor’s durability is scaling him to a feat which has been shown to be an outlier. As such, we have no idea what his actual durability is, since you rested your entire claim that he’s durable enough to withstand Superman’s blows on a singular extremely flawed scan.

While Frost Giants have no demonstrated heat durability beyond presumably having ice powers, the thing which I wanted to showcase earlier is that Thor is able to tank a beam from Gungnir which vaporized them. Heat based vaporization takes no small amount of yield to perform

On a being made of ice? You need to heat them up enough for them to evaporate. All this show is that an attack hot enough to evaporate ice isn’t enough to meaningfully damage Thor. Supermans heat vision vaporizes a tunnel of ice, of much bigger size than any ice giant. And given that Thor isn’t tanking this attack as much as you can say, we can assume his heat vision is enough to damage him.

No one said anything about long range sniping. Zapping someone before you get into touching range versus sniping people are two hugely different things. In addition, Thor literally uses lightning to help kill Ultron. To your point about the Destroyer and Hulk, he was capable of rather easily defeating the destroyer in the part you linked, and he actively needed Hulk to be functional later on against Loki. There are in-character reasons for him to do that.

So, seems like this is the crux of the argument we’ve got going here; Does Thor open with lightning, or not? You’re claiming he will based off of two scans.

Let’s go through all the fights Thor takes place in up until Ragnarok. You’re including fodder villains like this nameless Leviathan, so i’m going to do the same.

1)Frost giants on Jotunheim- doesn’t use lightning.

2)Destroyer on Earth- doesn’t use lightning.

3)Loki on Asgard- doesn’t open with lightning, but uses it towards the end.4)Tony Stark- uses lightning, doesn’t open with it.

5)Hulk- doesn’t use lightning at all. Though fair, there are in character reasons.

6)Leviathans- opens with lightning. However, he opens with it because Cap has literally instructed him to do this- “you’ve got the lightning, light the bastards up.” It isn’t an in character behavior, he has to be told to do it.

7)Rock Giants- doesn’t open with lightning.

8)Malekeith (R1)- opens with lightning.

9)Kurse- doesn’t use lightning

10)Malekeith (r2)- opens with lightning.

11)HYDRA- doesn’t open with lightning

12)Ultron Bots- doesn’t use lightning

13)Quicksilver/Scarlet Witch- doesn’t use lightning

14)Ultron- uses lightning, doesn’t open with it

Continued below

[u/feminist-horsebane → u/feminist-horsebane]

So, we have fourteen fights. Three of them, he opens with lightning-one of those is discounted for the explained reasons- so, two. Four of them, he uses it, but not as an opener. Seven times, he fights without using the lightning at all. That means that 50% of his fights, he doesn’t use the lightning at all.

And given how thor’s first instinct later on during Infinity War was to strike Thanos first with lightning-

Couple reason this doesn’t work. First, you’ve specified “pre-ragnarok”. That doesn’t just mean that he doesn’t have the combat feats from Ragnarok on, it means he doesn’t get the experience too. You can’t pick and choose without stipulating. Thor had two movies of character development and learning between when you’re using him and when this happens. It’s inadmissable as evidence, by your own stipulations.

Second of all, even if you could do this, you’re missing the context. He’s seen Thanos take apart the Hulk (as well as all of the other earth-bound Avengers) in prior encounters, he know how dangerous he is up close, and has only gotten more dangerous. In other words, he has meta knowledge. He won’t have that against Superman. So he’s going to open as he typically would.

Due to the nature of the tournament putting characters in an “in it to win it” mentality

When is Thor- or anyone else- ever not ‘in it to win it’ in a fight? Treating the rules of the tournament as if it’s “bloodlusted lite” is disingenuous. The characters are in character. They fight as they would in character. In character, Thor has a 14% chance of opening with his lightning, as opposed to a 50% that he won’t use it at all.

He is not at a significant striking advantage against Superman

You’ve demonstrated one striking feat that requires an amp, his casual striking is still leagues below Supermans.

I am also unsure why my opponent writes of gungnir as “unquantifiable”

Because as per your own admission, “the Frost Giants have no heat durability”. We don’t know how strong the blast is, we just know it's enough to destroy ice, which is still much below Superman’s heat vision.

Conclusion: As argued, Thor Odinson is out of tier, because he’ll use his lightning to insta-win at the drop of a hat. My opponent has rested his entire claim to Thor winning the fight on an out of character behavior of Thor instantly one-shotting with lightning. When told that his only durability feat presented was a massive outlier, my opponent failed to provide any real durability feats for Thor, meaning we have no evidence in this debate as to his actual durability. If it’s unquantified, there’s no reason to believe that Superman can’t just one shot him. In character, the two enter a hand to hand fight, which Superman loses due to inferior striking power, lifting strength, and durability. This should result in an easy win for Superman.

[u/British_Tea_Company → u/feminist-horsebane]

Closing Statements

Sakura - Touched upon earlier by my opponent was the fact that Sakura speaks in-real time as shown on-screen, a thing which I have provided counter-evidence for with instances of Sakura being able to say the incantation and perform the hand motions in short timeframes or demonstrate that if Sakura is not in the focus of the screen, her spells are quite fast. With a combination of having many attacks which Roshi has little resistance to, melee abilities which can still one-shot Roshi, and the ability to control the battlefield and reposition, I believe Sakura is the winner of this battle.

Guilliman - While my opponent argued that Guilliman's lack of skill feats versus Vader's superior skill which would grant him the headshot and win, Vader's skill advantage is not as clear cut as it seems, demonstrating from Guilliman's ability to block axe blows from creatures much stronger than he is. Vader's TK is likely to not serve any help to him overall, as his best feat of holding up a single leg does not seem to be nearly as impressive as Guilliman being able to outright lift through several hundred tons as written, or just outright throwing an object weighing around or above 72 tons while injured. Coupled with the IMMENSE heat durability from Primarchs as demonstrated from Lorgar, it is unlikely Guilliman is even capable of losing this battle as he outright cannot be hurt by Vader.

Thor - While there is a distinct lack of good lifting feats on par with Superman on the side of Thor, the disadvantage is not as bad as it would appear on paper due to Thor having his own in terms of lightning based attacks. While Thor has great durability relating to blunt force, heat and some scaling from Heimdall suggests he would not have bad cold resistance either, Superman solely locks in the electricity department. This is the edge Thor needs which allows him to beat Superman.

Alright. Good luck on the judgments.