r/whowouldwin • u/Verlux • Mar 11 '19
Event The Great Debate Season 7 Round 2!!!
Rules
Out of Tier Rules
- For Out of Tier requests, simply ping myself and/or Chainsaw__Monkey and state your case for why you believe someone's combatant is out of tier, then proceed with the debate as per normal. We will evaluate that request individual of the debate itself and make our decision in judgments. A short defense of the OOT is acceptable, a prolonged debate over it will be outright ignored
Battle Rules
Speed is to be equalized to a base of 50 m/s combat and movement speed, with their reactions scaled down/up relatively. Speed boosts via abilities, however, are indeed allowed to make one surpass this base speed threshold. Projectile speed maintains relative velocity compared to the combatant it originates from; a human scaled up to this speed firing a gun means their bullet moves as fast to a person moving 50 m/s as a bullet does to us as normal humans.
Battleground: The Great Debate arena has traveled across fiction, from a coliseum, to the Mines of Moria, to Asgard herself. Now, however, we bring the Great Debate to the real world: Enjoy destroying parts of the Panama Canal. A multiple-kilometer-long canal through which much trade and cargo moves via freight boat, the Canal consists of a series of locks which are 320 meters long, 33 meters in width, and 41 meters deep. The battlefield itself will be 3 locks long, and an additional 100 meters width extending beyond the locks' width. Each lock will be filled to the brim with ocean water, and contain a 50 meter long, 20 meter wide, 10 meter tall battleship (with no armaments of any sort, yet it has full oil and fuel) in the exact center of the lock. Combatants start opposite each other, with either team opposite the middlemost lock of the battlefield, facing each other from across the lock just 10 meters to the left of the battleship in it, standing 5 meters back from the lock and in a line spaced 2 meters apart from their allies. Every combatant starts each round being 'teleported' into the arena, knowing full well whomever they face down needs to die or be incapacitated in order for they themselves to advance and win and will do so, and with knowledge of their allies' weapons and abilities. All combatants begin without any weapons drawn or abilities active, hands idle at their sides, weapons holstered, and the moment they teleport in they can begin combat. All combatants are in-character for the tourney itself. Of special note: the edge of the arena consists of a thick wall of unobtanium, a non-magnetic, non-conducting alloy with infinite density that is impossible to manipulate or harm and exists outside the laws of physics, coming to a dome that covers the entire arena. Contestants slammed into it will indeed be harmed by the impact, but suffer no drawbacks from the infinite density.
Submission Rules
- Tier: Must be able to win an unlikely victory, draw/near draw, or likely victory against Neo in the conditions outlined above. All entrants will be bloodlusted against Neo, meaning they will act fully rationally and put down their opponent in the quickest, most efficient manner possible regardless of morality, utilizing any and all possible techniques/tactics/attacks if necessary. The bloodlust does not give any foreknowledge of Neo or his capabilities.
Debate Rules
Rounds will last 4-5 days, hopefully from Monday until Thursday or Friday of each week of the tourney; there is a 48 hour time limit both on starting (we do not care who starts, you and your opponent can figure that out) AND on responses, AND ADDITIONALLY each user MUST get in two responses or else be disqualified. If one user waits until the very last minute to force this rule to DQ their opponent without any forewarning to their opponents or the tournament supervisors, they will be removed from this tournament, no exceptions.
Format for each round: both respondents get Intro + 1st Response, then 2nd response, then a 3rd response and closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. EACH RESPONSE MUST BE NO LONGER THAN THREE REDDIT COMMENTS LONG WITH A HARD CAP OF 25,000 CHARACTERS SPLIT BETWEEN THE THREE.
Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are determined by randomization. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa. First Round will be determined by coin flip.
Brackets Here
Last round was 3v3, thus this round shall be:
1v1 Individual Fights
Round 2 Ends Friday March 15th, 23:59 CST
Format for each round: both respondents get Intro + 1st Response, then 2nd response, then a 3rd response and closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. EACH RESPONSE MUST BE NO LONGER THAN THREE REDDIT COMMENTS LONG WITH A HARD CAP OF 25,000 CHARACTERS SPLIT BETWEEN THE THREE.
Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are randomized based on sign up order via an internet list randomizer. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa. First Round will be determined by coin flip, and as it is 3v3s, next shall be 1v1, and so on and so forth.
Randomization is as follows: Taking from sign-up order:
- 1st Combatant vs 3rd Combatant
- 2nd Combatant vs 1st Combatant
- 3rd Combatant vs 2nd Combatant
1
u/feminist-horsebane Mar 15 '19
Response Three:
Part I: Sakura vs. Roshi conclusion
So, strong enough to break concrete? Because Roshi can do that with the tip of his foot. If that’s the requirement to beat these shields, they’re not lasting long.
She can take one or two attacks before dying/being KO’d. But she doesn’t have any resistance to pressure point attacks, which will immobilize her, making her an easy target. Besides, how long do you think it will take for Master Roshi, the God of Martial Arts, to land sufficient hits on her- especially since she has no recourse in a CQC fight, as she can’t very well summon Sword while being pummeled. Not to mention that again, giving an untrained ten year old girl a sword against a master martial artist is hardly anything that would level the playing field.
But she doesn’t have upscaled speed. The speed that her tournament is set at is faster than her normal speed, but that doesn’t give her the ability to say all of her attacks in the fraction of a second. It just means she’s as fast relative to 50 m/s as she normally would be. Her own respect thread confirms that she has no superhuman speed or reaction. Nowhere in it does it mention her having faster reactions, or being able to talk faster than a regular human being. You’re taking two scans that contradict all the evidence that her spells are cast in normal time, and saying that actually, those two scans are the only ones that are accurate. When a feat this inconsistent is presented, we treat it as an outlier as we rightly should, rather than trying to reverse-engineer every other feat we’ve seen to be compatible with it.
Reactions are not equalized, they’re scaled; "Speed is to be equalized to a base of 50 m/s combat and movement speed, with their reactions scaled down/up relatively"
This is not true. Sword has been talked about at length. The time it takes to cast is just too much. Freeze is viable, but she would have to know to open with it over any of her other attacks, the cast time doesn’t give her the ability to use shield in time. Disintegrate, per your own admission in response two, is not something she would use in character on an old man as soon as the fight starts. You claim she won't use it on an old man charging at her, but you don't provide a reason why.Conclusion: Sakura has horrid durability and even worse cast times. Two inconsistent scans do not change that, especially when they’re being interpreted differently from how the respect thread tells us to interpret them. For order for her to win this fight, she would have to know to immediately open with the only attack that is fast enough to hit Roshi. She would need to have perfect aim and not fall for any after-images, and tag a . The window of opportunity for her to win this fight is just too small. This is an easy win for Roshi.
Part II: Roboute vs. Vader
It just isn’t. Withstanding applied force is durability. If I swing a sledgehammer at a concrete pillar, and the pillar doesn't break, does that make the pillar "skilled"? Of course not. Being able to block an attack from a strong opponent and take minimal damage is a durability feat. There is nothing here that suggests that he is able to contend with an extremely talented master duelist. The claim that blocking a strike from a stronger opponent makes him as skilled as Vader is just silly.
I’d question whether “same size” means “same weight.” Per your own admission when you say it’s “likely heavier”, you’re admitting we don’t have the actual weight of this thing he’s tossing.
Again, per your own admission, Land Raiders are mostly hollow, whereas the legs of AT AT’s are not. And as has gone unaddressed, Vader is supporting the weight of the entire AT AT as it rests on that leg.
So, because a similar character once didn’t wear a helmet and at another time and place was hurt by a 100 million degree explosion- we’re assuming that all Primarchs have the same heat durability whether they’re armored or not? That’s just too hard of a sell for me.
Him being bigger also makes him much less maneuverable at close range. Vader kills things bigger than him all the time.
The feats we’re given to measure his durability show that a headshot is a viable way to take him down. As such, that’s how he’s being interpreted.
Conclusion: it doesn't matter how strong Roboute is if he can't hit his opponent. He has no skill feats, and the wonky scaling presented here doesn't make him a swordsman on par with Vader, or anywhere close. He has no answer to the passive precognition that Vader uses in his fights. He may be durable, but he is not without weakness. Even if Roboute can resist his TK, he still is little more than a flailing beast in this fight.
Continued below