Clash of Titans Season 2 Tribunal

[u/KenfromDiscord]

What is a Tribunal?

A Tribunal is a period where everyone is allowed a period to vet through the opposition's picks, and determine whether or not they fit the tier (Unlikely Victory, Draw, Likely Victory against New 52 Superman. If you feel certain things put any other character in the entire tourney out of tier, simply tag the user under the posting of their characters and state what you believe is out of tier, then argue it.

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When Does Tribunal End?

Tribunal ends when all the OOT Characters are removed,and the judges as a whole are satisfied that no single character is blatantly OOT

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What Do I Do If A Judge States I Am Out Of Tier?

Find someone else. The back-up you have is in case you are argued out of tier. You will have until the Tourney starts, and can ping/message any one of the judges, and we will make sure your swap is good.

If you are out of tier, you get precisely one chance to plead a case on your character/s being in-tier before having to swap; if we are saying no on something, we actually are just picking on you.

If you are called out on the last day, we ourselves will hurriedly do our best to make sure your replacement is in-tier.

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Judges

ME

IMade

Kerd

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Sign ups

Hype post

[u/fj668]

/u/andrewspornalt

I'm not seeing how The Fallen One is in tier. He takes every short coming that Surfer has and nullifies them thanks to Mjolnir.

He also seems to just plain be stronger than normal Surfer who's already a likely victory against Superman. He was no-selling punches from The Hulk. He can hurt Thanos. Normal Surfer can't even make Thanos blink.

Here he is one-shotting cosmic Ghost Rider. Despite the fact that Ghost Rider can survive hits from Thanos. Ghost Rider even says he has to hold back to not just destroy planets by simply walking.

This Surfer scales pretty well to people who are stronger than the tier setter and has none of the backsides that put him in tier compared to regular Silver Surfer.

[u/Ame-no-nobuko → u/fj668]

As I choose The Fallen One I will answer for Andrew.

He also seems to just plain be stronger than normal Surfer who's already a likely victory against Superman.

Outside of Mjolnir he has no direct advantage over normal surfer. Mjolnir gives him lightning strikes, but his striking is already planet busting so it doesn't help much on that front other than giving him the advantage that a nigh invulnerable blunt force weapon would

He was no-selling punches from The Hulk.

A Hulk who at best could be argued to be Savage Hulk.

He can hurt Thanos. Normal Surfer can't even make Thanos blink.

Modern Thanos is weaker than classic Thanos. When he had his power returned to him in full in the arc before this, he blew up a planet. This is pretty in tier and Fallen One lost pretty hard to 2 Thanos beating on him. Which is what should happen if he fought 2 planet busters.

Here he is one-shotting cosmic Ghost Rider.

Ghost Rider is inherently weak to magic weapons. He also has like no objective planetary scale feats

Despite the fact that Ghost Rider can survive hits from Thanos.

I don't think Thanos' eye beams scale to planet busting. Plus energy attacks like heat vision =/= blunt force attacks.

Ghost Rider even says he has to hold back to not just destroy planets by simply walking.

He could mean if he let go he could burn an entire world down with hellfire or some sort of cosmic penance stare. Considering he has no planet busting feats and has a wide array of esoteric attacks and that he's insane I see no reason to believe or assume this means conventional planet busting

This Surfer scales pretty well to people who are stronger than the tier setter and has none of the backsides that put him in tier compared to regular Silver Surfer.

Surfer is 1:1 the tier setter, not stronger. By definition the tier setter can take repeated and casually hit with planet busting feats. That is exactly what Surfer is. Providing him with more skill, a vague boost to durability and Mjolnir just makes him like 1.2x-1.4x better than the tier setter. Its good, but its still well within tier

[u/fj668 → u/Ame-no-nobuko]

Outside of Mjolnir he has no direct advantage over normal surfer.

Mjolnir gives it's wielder the power of Thor based on the weapon's own inscription. Thor clearly holds the advantage against Surfer in strength. You're taking away Surfer's lackluster physical attacks and amping them by giving him Thor's strength and durability. Surfer is already a likely victory against Superman thanks to having far better ranged attacks. Having him be equal with Superman in a slug fest just means he's going to stomp him.

A Hulk who at best could be argued to be Savage Hulk.

Take your pick of any Hulk version. They can pretty much all hang with S-tiers like Thor unless they're particularly weak. No selling punches from an S-tier makes you OOT.

Modern Thanos is weaker than classic Thanos.

First off, unless you have explicit evidence of Thanos getting weaker over the years this argument doesn't really fly. You're just assuming he's weaker without any actual concrete evidence other than feats getting worse.

Second.

Modern Thanos can take on two Thors at once.

Modern Thanos can tank shouts from Black Bolt. Who is strong enough to hurt WWH.

Oh, lookie here Surfer still isn't shit.

Oh hey Modern Thanos is that you casually beating Thor?

Even if your argument about Modern Thanos being weaker was true, he's still way above the tier setter and way above Surfer.

Ghost Rider is inherently weak to magic weapons.

Can I get some evidence to this? Ghost Rider has fought Dr. Strange before and wasn't one-shotted.

He also has like no objective planetary scale feats

Here he is surviving a punch from Thanos.

Here he is bringing Thanos down to his knees.

No selling multiple hits from Galactus.

Survives a hit from a Celestial's head. who are casually above sky fathers.

He could mean if he let go he could burn an entire world down with hellfire or some sort of cosmic penance stare.

How does that translate to "By walking" i don't see how he could possibly mean anything but y'know, walking. Unless you have actual evidence to refute this I believe my point still stands.

Surfer is 1:1 the tier setter, not stronger.

He's definitely stronger. Surfer's ranged attacks hit as hard as Superman's melee attacks. He also has several abilities that can slow Superman down or put the fight into his favor. Superman just has physical strength and durability that is above Surfer's while Surfer holds the advantage in range and abilities.

Providing him with more skill, a vague boost to durability and Mjolnir just makes him like 1.2x-1.4x better than the tier setter.

The durability boost isn't vague. It puts him from being casually tossed around by most s-tiers to having the durability of Thor. Superman manhandles Surfer if he gets into melee range. The Fallen One pummels him into submission with Mjolnir.

Its good, but its still well within tier

Not really. You took everything disadvantage that Surfer has against Superman and made them null by giving him Mjolnir. It'd take a fluke for Superman to win this, he's OOT.

[u/Ame-no-nobuko → u/fj668]

Mjolnir gives it's wielder the power of Thor based on the weapon's own inscription

Thor has a significant amount of strength unto himself. Wielding the hammer doesn't grant you that power. Otherwise Beta Ray Bill would be OOT as without stormbreaker (an identical hammer to Thor) he still basically stalemated Thor. Jane Thor is also notably weaker than normal Thor. I don't think there is significant evidence that Mjolnir enhances striking beyond like Cap's shield would

You're taking away Surfer's lackluster physical attacks and amping them by giving him Thor's strength and durability. Surfer is already a likely victory against Superman thanks to having far better ranged attacks. Having him be equal with Superman in a slug fest just means he's going to stomp him.

Surfer isn't a likely victory. He's a tie. He has superior range, however the fight takes place at such a close range that he can't abuse it and Superman is more skilled than him.

Take your pick of any Hulk version. They can pretty much all hang with S-tiers like Thor unless they're particularly weak. No selling punches from an S-tier makes you OOT.

This ties in later, but I re-read the 2016 Thanos comic and it all takes place in an alternate timeline (even the stuff not in a future). Its still 616, but its a divergent reality. What version of Hulk is here is 100% ambiguous. Hell it might be a never before seen one.

First off, unless you have explicit evidence of Thanos getting weaker over the years this argument doesn't really fly. You're just assuming he's weaker without any actual concrete evidence other than feats getting worse.

As mentioned this is an alt-timeline Thanos who was explicetly weakened and then amped. I don't think you can use main universe scaling for a Thanos who has had significant changes to his power dynamic

Modern Thanos can take on two Thors at once.

Aren't those Battleworld Thors. They are notably weaker than the definite article Thor

Modern Thanos can tank shouts from Black Bolt. Who is strong enough to hurt WWH.

IIRC that was a skrull of Black Bolt, so he should be weaker

Can I get some evidence to this? Ghost Rider has fought Dr. Strange before and wasn't one-shotted.

I'm no Ghost Rider expert so if you want me to link actual scans I'll need to get back to you, but for now its an explicit weakness on his wiki page that blessed weapons (which Mjolnir is), is a weakness of his

No selling multiple hits from Galactus.

This is set in a future hundreds to thousands years in the future. You can't say how strong Galactus is

Survives a hit from a Celestial's head.

Celestials range insanely in power level. Some would be under tier for this tourney

How does that translate to "By walking" i don't see how he could possibly mean anything but y'know, walking. Unless you have actual evidence to refute this I believe my point still stands.

The fact that he's insane and an unreliable WoC? The fact that he's literally never done that. If I was running Cosmic Ghost Rider and debated you would you let me say that he's planet busting because of that WoC?

The durability boost isn't vague. It puts him from being casually tossed around by most s-tiers to having the durability of Thor. Superman manhandles Surfer if he gets into melee range. The Fallen One pummels him into submission with Mjolnir.

Superman still has superior strength. Grappling is still an advantage he has. Mjolnir isn't that effective against Superman. PC Superman caught Mjolnir mid swing and overpowered Thor, and thats when he had a weakness to magic, unlike with the tier setter.

Not really. You took everything disadvantage that Surfer has against Superman and made them null by giving him Mjolnir. It'd take a fluke for Superman to win this, he's OOT.

Superman is still stronger. Superman is still more skilled. Superman still has better durability endurance.

[u/fj668 → u/Ame-no-nobuko]

Thor has a significant amount of strength unto himself.

I know. That's what I'm saying.

"Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor."

Whatever is lacking in strength Surfer will be amped to possess that power. He will be equal with Thor in all of his abilities, not Thor plus Silver Surfer.

Otherwise Beta Ray Bill would be OOT as without stormbreaker (an identical hammer to Thor) he still basically stalemated Thor.

That should be enough evidence to support my previous statement. Beta Ray Bill is an equal to Thor without Storm Breaker and Mjolnir doesn't make him stronger than Thor.

I don't think there is significant evidence that Mjolnir enhances striking beyond like Cap's shield would

You explicitly stated that his striking would scale to Thor's with Mjolnir.

Surfer isn't a likely victory. He's a tie. He has superior range, however the fight takes place at such a close range that he can't abuse it and Superman is more skilled than him.

Surfer has multiple options to keep his ranged advantage against Superman or slow him down in a fight. Not to mention just so many options to attack Superman that Superman doesn't possess. Surfer isn't just going to stay still and let Superman bull rush him for an attack. He'll quickly realize Superman can be beaten at a range and then will create that range. Surfer is in no way equal to Superman in this fight even with heavy stips.

The whole "Different universe thing"

Then why are you scaling The Fallen One to mainline Surfer? If they're two completely different versions that's like me scaling N52 Superman to Silver Age Superman. Why are you scaling Thor's hammer to 616 Thor? You yourself believe that these characters should scale to your 616 counter parts. So you should either accept the characters scale to their 616 counter parts or just use him as is.

Also, I'd argue that this Thanos is even stronger than normal Thanos considering that he destroyed multiple cosmic abstracts.

IIRC that was a skrull of Black Bolt, so he should be weaker

If he's weaker that further proves my point. A weaker Black Bolt hurt WWH where as the real deal could barely damage Thanos.

I'm no Ghost Rider expert so if you want me to link actual scans I'll need to get back to you, but for now its an explicit weakness on his wiki page that blessed weapons (which Mjolnir is), is a weakness of his

Believe it or not, the Wiki is not an official canon source. So Surfer still oneshots someone stronger than the tier setter.

Celestials range insanely in power level.

Ziran is a completely random celestial. He was hurling planets around like nothing with TOAA.

Some would be under tier for this tourney

Let's see it.

If I was running Cosmic Ghost Rider and debated you would you let me say that he's planet busting because of that WoC?

I'd say he's a incredibly casual planet buster because he can hurt Thanos. I'd then call him OOT for doing this.

Superman still has superior strength.

Not with Mjolnir. Superman's strength might be marginally better than Surfer's.

PC Superman caught Mjolnir mid swing and overpowered Thor, and thats when he had a weakness to magic, unlike with the tier setter.

PC Superman has solar system level feats. Why are you scaling characters to other characters with far better feats? Why not just scale the tier setter to thought robot?

Superman is still stronger

Very arguable since Surfer has the power of thor.

Superman is still more skilled.

Skill doesn't beat out such an insane ranged advantage with similar strength. Also since you're scaling him to 616 Surfer he'll have cosmic awareness so it's not gonna be that big of a difference.

Superman still has better durability endurance.

Not as long as he has Thor's power.

[u/Ame-no-nobuko → u/fj668]

"Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor."

Whatever is lacking in strength Surfer will be amped to possess that power. He will be equal with Thor in all of his abilities, not Thor plus Silver Surfer.

You misunderstand. The hammer doesn't amp your strength to Thor's level. Thor is at that level without the hammer and doesn't need it to be at that level. Jane Foster Thor is weaker physically than Thor even with Mjolnir and when Cap has had Mjolnir I don't think he's ever been close to planet busting.

That should be enough evidence to support my previous statement. Beta Ray Bill is an equal to Thor without Storm Breaker and Mjolnir doesn't make him stronger than Thor.

I don't think there is any evidence of this claim

You explicitly stated that his striking would scale to Thor's with Mjolnir.

Wasn't that stipulation removed by Kerd because its similar to that I can't stipulate Daxamites = PC Superman

Surfer has multiple options to keep his ranged advantage against Superman or slow him down in a fight. Not to mention just so many options to attack Superman that Superman doesn't possess. Surfer isn't just going to stay still and let Superman bull rush him for an attack. He'll quickly realize Superman can be beaten at a range and then will create that range. Surfer is in no way equal to Superman in this fight even with heavy stips.

Most of Surfer's esoterics (that we both left in) are useless in a direct fight. He can't absorb anything Superman sends at him, phasing can be useful but its so rarely used its not something he can spam/will use a lot. He has range, but they start close and due to how speed scaling works his energy attacks should be possible to dodge, at distance

Then why are you scaling The Fallen One to mainline Surfer? If they're two completely different versions that's like me scaling N52 Superman to Silver Age Superman. Why are you scaling Thor's hammer to 616 Thor? You yourself believe that these characters should scale to your 616 counter parts. So you should either accept the characters scale to their 616 counter parts or just use him as is.

Its a different timeline, not universe. They share the same past, its just that this one is set in some future that diverges off of the main one

Also, I'd argue that this Thanos is even stronger than normal Thanos considering that he destroyed multiple cosmic abstracts.

In the far future/distant past depending on the Thanos

If he's weaker that further proves my point. A weaker Black Bolt hurt WWH where as the real deal could barely damage Thanos.

No the one who attacked Thanos is a skrull

Believe it or not, the Wiki is not an official canon source. So Surfer still oneshots someone stronger than the tier setter.

I agree its not an official, I'll get you a real scan soon

Ziran is a completely random celestial. He was hurling planets around like nothing with TOAA.

Like I said though this takes place after Thanos gets a debuff and then a vague buff after a huge gap of time in an alternate timeline

I'd say he's a incredibly casual planet buster because he can hurt Thanos. I'd then call him OOT for doing this.

He hurt Thanos with hellfire. Hellfire =/= blunt force

Not with Mjolnir. Superman's strength might be marginally better than Surfer's.

Superman's strength > Thor with Mjolnir. Base Thor > Surfer. Even if you are saying it amps him then Superman is still stronger

Very arguable since Surfer has the power of thor.

So did Thor when Superman overpowered him

Skill doesn't beat out such an insane ranged advantage with similar strength. Also since you're scaling him to 616 Surfer he'll have cosmic awareness so it's not gonna be that big of a difference.

I mean it does.

Not as long as he has Thor's power.

I mean yes. Jane Thor for example is not nearly as durable as real Thor

[u/GuyOfEvil → u/Ame-no-nobuko]

the one who attacked Thanos wasn't a skrull, but he was hella weakened

The first scream Thanos got hit with wasn't from weakened Black Bolt, but he's pretty clearly fucked up, and Black Bolt might have been amped

[u/Ame-no-nobuko → u/GuyOfEvil]

the one who attacked Thanos wasn't a skrull, but he was hella weakened

Gotcha. I knew there was some context behind it

[u/Ame-no-nobuko → u/fj668]

Here are the Ghost Rider is weak to blessed weapons. It is straight up said here. Alejandra is taken out by a blessed arrow