r/whowouldwin • u/KenfromDiscord • May 23 '19

Event Clash of Titans Season 2 Tribunal

What is a Tribunal?

A Tribunal is a period where everyone is allowed a period to vet through the opposition's picks, and determine whether or not they fit the tier (Unlikely Victory, Draw, Likely Victory against New 52 Superman. If you feel certain things put any other character in the entire tourney out of tier, simply tag the user under the posting of their characters and state what you believe is out of tier, then argue it.

When Does Tribunal End?

Tribunal ends when all the OOT Characters are removed,and the judges as a whole are satisfied that no single character is blatantly OOT

What Do I Do If A Judge States I Am Out Of Tier?

Find someone else. The back-up you have is in case you are argued out of tier. You will have until the Tourney starts, and can ping/message any one of the judges, and we will make sure your swap is good.

If you are out of tier, you get precisely one chance to plead a case on your character/s being in-tier before having to swap; if we are saying no on something, we actually are just picking on you.

If you are called out on the last day, we ourselves will hurriedly do our best to make sure your replacement is in-tier.

Judges

ME

IMade

Kerd

Sign ups

Hype post

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u/KenfromDiscord May 23 '19 edited May 29 '19

/u/andrewspornalt and u/Ame-no-nobuko are signing up with:

Team Wide Stipulations:

All non-Solar System planet or moon busting feats for the characters being run or characters they scale to are assumed to be Earth sized.

Ame's Team

Name Continuity RT Stipulations
Kyle Rayner Post Crisis RT Believes his opponents helped Major Force kill his girlfriend and he is in the Torchbearer Ion form. Kyle can't make kryptonite. Oa feat is taken as genuine planet busting. Can use feats of weaker GLs
Sodam Yat Post Crisis RT . 31st century version, He is immune to the effects of lead. He has the Ion entity and can use feats of weaker GLs.

Andrew's Team

Name Continuity RT Stipulations
Cyborg Superman Post Crisis/Rebirth Composite PC, Rebirth He has the same motivations as during Sinestro Corps War. He has the Phantom Lantern and a Green Lantern ring. Off panel and Phantom ring planet feats should be assumed to have been done in one blastAction comic canon takes precedent over suicide squads retelling. More Phantom Ring feats
The Fallen One (Norrin Radd) 616 RT, SS RT He believes his opponent is working with Thanos. Can't use matter manipulation on opponents, or absorb/manipulate yellow solar energy. No time travel/soul stuff/telepathy. Thanos' Galactus/Odin scaling is ignored, can use main timeline Surfer's feats .

Superman lacks.

Backup

Name Continuity RT Stipulations
Amazo Post Crisis RT Red Tornado body Amazo only. Starts with Superman's strength and durability and WW's durability for non-KE attacks, John Stewart/Hal Jordan's ring, Black Lightning's powers, the full Firestorm matrix (can't directly change opponents), Batman's martial arts and batarangs. No red solar generation/shifting or make kryptonite. He thinks his opponents are part of the Justice League.

Scaling

Kyle Rayner

Sodam Yat

Cyborg Superman

The Fallen One

Amazo

u/Verlux and /u/chainsaw__monkey shall be entering with the following team:

Character Universe Stipulations Submitted by
Batman(Bruce Wayne) DC Composite version, PC happened in n52/Rebirth and all our antifeats are retconned out Chainsaw
Nightwing(Dick Grayson) DC Composite version, PC happened in n52/Rebirth and all our antifeats are retconned out Chainsaw
Deathstroke(Slade Wilson) DC Composite version, PC happened in n52/Rebirth and all our antifeats are retconned out Myself
Judomaster(Sonia Sato) DC PC, PC happened in n52/Rebirth and all our antifeats are retconned out Myself
Wildcat(Ted Grant) DC PC, PC happened in n52/Rebirth and all our antifeats are retconned out Both of us

1

u/feminist-horsebane May 27 '19

u/Ame-no-nobuko

I’m calling Sodam Yat out of tier. Green Lantern auto-shields are capable of taking blasts from Mordru, which are planetary. taking punches from Superboy Prime, and Sodam himself has feats of taking blasts from the Anti-Monitor. Sodam also has fought evenly with Superboy Prime for hours, even drawing blood from him, all while substantially weakened from lead poisoning. So, a weakened version of Sodam Yat is able to fight evenly and do noticeably damage to SBP, who himself is magnitudes above Superman.
Sodam being this durable and hitting this hard (while weakened) means that Tourneyman has no chance to win. He may be more skilled, but the magnitude in physicals there is too massive for him to consistently overcome, thus he is out of tier.

1

u/Ame-no-nobuko May 28 '19

Green Lantern auto-shields are capable of taking blasts from Mordru, which are planetary

I mean yeah, having the durability to take planetary hits is kinda in tier

taking punches from Superboy Prime

At this point in time Prime's only objective feats are moving planets at high speeds and being vaguely stronger than Kal-L who is a planet buster. Yat does take a beating, however he loses, hard. It ends with him beaten bloody and needing to use a sun to heal his injuries

Sodam himself has feats of taking blasts from the Anti-Monitor

AM isn't as strong as you think. In 3 hits he beat Pre-Crisis Superman who is ~=~ planetary level durability. Sodam was taken down in 2.

Sodam also has fought evenly with Superboy Prime for hours

Feeling like its hours =/= actually hours. In a boring class 20 minutes can feel like hours, but it actually isn't. The RT has the entire fight in chunks, at most its maybe 15 minutes

all while substantially weakened from lead poisoning.

His ring is mitigating the effects of the lead. He is weakened, but only marginally. Yat also fought Prime again in the 31st century and even with significant help he lost that fight.

So, a weakened version of Sodam Yat is able to fight evenly and do noticeably damage to SBP, who himself is magnitudes above Superman.

He doesn't do any notable damage. Right after this fight Prime proceeds to, beat up Guy and Hal(?), kill a ton of Lanterns, fight more S tiers and then take out a Guardian. He is doing about as well against everyone as he was before the Sodam fight

1

u/feminist-horsebane May 28 '19

I mean yeah, having the durability to take planetary hits is kinda in tier

Right. So he has shields that can take planetary hits on top of his kryptonian like physiology which can tank planets exploding while weakened as well as survive getting decked by the claws of horus. as well as the ability to heal from damage as long as a sun is around. How’s Superman supposed to deal with that?

At this point in time Prime's only objective feats are moving planets at high speeds and being vaguely stronger than Kal-L who is a planet buster.

He isn’t really just vaguely stronger. Kal-L attempts to beat through dimensional doors and fails to have an effect after an extended barrage. Superboy Prime on the other hand, does it without even being at full power, saying he hasn’t been near a yellow sun in ages. So, even a weakened SBP is > Kal-L, who is, by your own admission, a planet buster. On top of that, Superboy Primes durability is just broken. Kal-L definitely couldn’t no sell Black Adam’s onslaught, or a Guardian of Oa detonating in his face, or tank a galaxy destroying bomb. Saying that he’s just “vaguely stronger than Kal-L” is like saying that a blue whale is “vaguely larger” than a termite.

Yat does take a beating, however he loses, hard.

He definitely loses, but the fight is not as much of a stomp as you’re claiming. He’s able to do damage to SBP throughout.

AM isn't as strong as you think. In 3 hits he beat Pre-Crisis Superman who is ~=~ planetary level durability. Sodam was taken down in 2.

There are low showings for all characters of course, but it’s disingenious to portray the Anti Monitor as someone who is on par with the likes of Pre Crisis Superman. More often than not, his feats include things like no selling and dicking a legion of S Tiers or being able to take an onslaught from all of the Lantern Corps simultaneously.

Feeling like its hours =/= actually hours. In a boring class 20 minutes can feel like hours, but it actually isn't. The RT has the entire fight in chunks, at most its maybe 15 minutes

This feels like an arbitrary number, but let’s say you’re right and it’s 15 minutes. Surviving a 15 minute onslaught from SBP while weakened by lead poisoning is out of tier, especially when you consider how quickly these people are moving.

His ring is mitigating the effects of the lead. He is weakened, but only marginally.

This scan says nothing about the effects of the lead being reduced. All it says is that taking the ring off would make the effects worse. That could mean that the ring is simply keeping him alive against the lead. That the ring can keep the lead from weakening him past a certain point. It isn’t clear. What is clear here is that if you want to put down Sodam Yat, even in a weakened state, you need to be able to deliver a sustained onslaught on SBP’s level of force.

Yat also fought Prime again in the 31st century and even with significant help he lost that fight.

Source?

He doesn't do any notable damage.

Sodam draws blood from Prime, That’s the definition of notable damage I.E. it’s damage you can literally note.

Right after this fight Prime proceeds to beat up Guy and Hal, kill a ton of lanterns, fight S tiers and then take out a guardian.

So are SBPs’ feats impressive or not? You claim that he’s only “vaguely above Superman”, but Superman definitely couldn’t do all of that. Sodam Yat being able to harm and fight extensively with someone so far above tourneyman means he’s OOT.

1

u/Ame-no-nobuko May 29 '19

of his kryptonian like physiology which can tank planets exploding while weakened

A. Yat has never shown above planetary durability so I see no reason I can or would argue its 2x

B. Taking a planet busting explosion from a distance is magnitudes below taking a planet busting hit. IIRC Superman wasn't even close to the surface of the planet when it blew up, just in atmosphere

as well as survive getting decked by the claws of horus

This KO'd him. Also being hit by a planet is vague. A planet's speed is critical to the equation. At fist speeds its sub-planet busting

as well as the ability to heal from damage as long as a sun is around. How’s Superman supposed to deal with that?

Sodam Yat has never healed from damage like that. He heals, but he only healed minor bone breaking and lacerations and he was closeish to the sun

So, even a weakened SBP is > Kal-L, who is, by your own admission, a planet buster.

Sure he's stronger, but not by an insane amount. Kal-L and PC Superman also took hits from Prime before.

On top of that, Superboy Primes durability is just broken. Kal-L definitely couldn’t no sell Black Adam’s onslaught

Yes because Superman has a weakness to magic while SBP seems to have a resistance to it. On the other hand SBP was beaten bloody by S tiers

or a Guardian of Oa detonating in his face,

This is not quantifiable

or tank a galaxy destroying bomb.

This is far above any of his normal feats. I see no reason it should be considered as anything except an outlier

He’s able to do damage to SBP throughout.

He drew blood twice. Outside of that there is no evidence of damaging him. After his fight with Yat there is no evidence that he was weakened or otherwise slowed down. He goons more Lanterns, fights Alan Scott, etc. I have already linked feats of other S tiers achieving similar

There are low showings for all characters of course, but it’s disingenious to portray the Anti Monitor as someone who is on par with the likes of Pre Crisis Superman.

I never claimed he was on par. I claimed it took 3 to take out Pre-C Supes and 2 hits to take out Yat.

like no selling and dicking a legion of S Tiers

Thats with an anti-matter wave, which isn't his normal energy blasts.

or being able to take an onslaught from all of the Lantern Corps simultaneously.

That was Black Lantern AM. Durability for Black Lanterns aren't the same as normal. Luthor in his S tier warsuit was nearly overwhelmed by like 100 normal human Black Lanterns. Also Sodam never hurt the Anti-monitor so his durability is irrelevant.

This feels like an arbitrary number, but let’s say you’re right and it’s 15 minutes. Surviving a 15 minute onslaught from SBP while weakened by lead poisoning is out of tier, especially when you consider how quickly these people are moving.

15 minutes is a vague estimate, but its certainly not that long of a fight. SBP's feats don't indicate anything other than a hyper-casual planet buster. His hits don't take out Kal-L or PC Superman and nor can he escape their grasp, even when they fly through a kryptonite field

This scan says nothing about the effects of the lead being reduced. All it says is that taking the ring off would make the effects worse. That could mean that the ring is simply keeping him alive against the lead. That the ring can keep the lead from weakening him past a certain point. It isn’t clear. What is clear here is that if you want to put down Sodam Yat, even in a weakened state, you need to be able to deliver a sustained onslaught on SBP’s level of force.

Ring straight up says as much here.

What is clear here is that if you want to put down Sodam Yat, even in a weakened state, you need to be able to deliver a sustained onslaught on SBP’s level of force.

Yes you need to consistently hit him with planet busting hits

Source?

This is the start of the fight and this is how it ends for Yat.

Sodam draws blood from Prime, That’s the definition of notable damage I.E. it’s damage you can literally note.

By notable damage I mean something that actually impacts him in a meaningful way. Prime breaks no bones, isn't slowed down or weakened after the fight or anything. This is the equivalent of a rookie fighter fighting Muhammad Ali and people are claiming they are equal because the rookie took a few hits and bruised Ali

So are SBPs’ feats impressive or not? You claim that he’s only “vaguely above Superman”, but Superman definitely couldn’t do all of that. Sodam Yat being able to harm and fight extensively with someone so far above tourneyman means he’s OOT.

Superman certainly could. Superboy has done consistently decently against Prime and Superman is stronger than him. Superman would loose in 100% of the fights, but so would Ion