Clash of Titans Season 2 Finals

[u/KenfromDiscord]

OOT Stuff

As this is a debate tournament, it would be a bit silly to not be allowed to debate things. As such your debate skills will be put to the test if or when your Opponent calls your characters OOT during the Rounds. Simply debate better than your opponent and your characters will stay in the tournament.

OOT arguments in the tournament proper will be handled as a separate decision from the main judgements. How this works is that, should you argue OOT, whether you were successful will be decided by a judge vote, and then the judgements will proceed taking the result of the vote into account

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Battle Rules

Speed is to be equalized to Mach 200. Combat and movement speed, with their reactions scaled down/up relatively. Speed boosts via abilities, however, are indeed allowed to make one surpass this base speed threshold.

Battleground: Its Toriko Earth, Toriko earth is 659 times the size of the regular earth. (or 220,000 KM), more specifically the fight takes place in the City where the 4 Beast Arc takes place. There are also no animals or other humans besides the submitted characters on Toriko Earth

Combatants start 2 relative seconds away from each other, in the Human World, and in a line spaced 2 meters apart from their allies.

Every combatant starts each round being 'teleported' into the arena, knowing full well whomever they face down needs to die or be incapacitated in order for they themselves to advance and win and will do so, and with knowledge of their allies' weapons and abilities. All combatants begin without any weapons drawn or abilities active, hands idle at their sides, weapons holstered, and the moment they teleport in they can begin combat. All combatants are in-character for the tourney itself. No character can go into space.

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Debate Rules

Rounds will last 5 days, hopefully from Tuesday Morning until Sunday night of each week of the tourney; there is a 48 hour time limit both on starting AND on responses, each user MUST get in two responses or else be disqualified. If one user waits until the very last minute to force this rule to DQ their opponent without any forewarning to their opponents or the tournament supervisors, they will be removed from this tournament.

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Formatting Rules

Rounds will either be a full 4v4 Team Match, or 2v2 matches. 2v2 matches are determined by randomization. Match format will switch every round.

Users are now allowed 4 responses , totaling 22500 characters between them. Due the the way the Gimmick works each comment can only be 7.5K characters long, this is to ensure that each debate is a reasonable length and can be judged swiftly.

FOUR RESPONSES. 22500 CHARACTERS IN TOTALITY, 7.5K CHARACTERS PER COMMENT.

E.X: Team intros > Team 1( Response 1 Comments 1,2,3) > Team 2 ( Response 1 Comments 1,2,3)>Team 1 ( Response 2 Comments 1,2,3) >Team 2 ( Response 2 Comments 1,2,3)>Team 1 ( Response 3 Comments 1,2,3)> Team 2 ( Response 3 Comments 1,2,3)>Team 1 ( Response 4 Comments 1,2,3)> Team 2 ( Response 4 Comments 1,2,3)> Team Conclusions.

The 48 hour response window still applies, as does getting two responses in at minimum.

The Finals are a 2v2. the Match ups are as followed

Kyle & Sadam Yat vs Paragon & Mean Supreme

and

Cyborg Superman & Fallen One vs Magneto and Gladiator

This round will last until its done.

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3rd Place Match.

The third place match will follow all the same rules as above However the arena is now

Inside a freight elevator

if you leave the elevator you are instantly DQ'd

The Match ups are

Thane & Hyperion vs Mongul & Don Slime

Sentry and Starbrand vs Superman & Red Creel

[u/mikhailnikolaievitch]

Win Con 3: Brute Force- In terms of a brute force defense, the subject of Magneto's forcefields got messy, so let's clarify what we're dealing with. Magneto blocks a blast from a weapon designed to punch through planets, The weapon's power is explicit and my opponent's interpretation that it needed nukes to activate to work is faulty--while Magneto created the shield he also disabled the nukes. There's a lot of dialogue in those scans, so I specified here the relevant parts: Magneto disabled the nukes while defending the entire asteroid, and the asteroid is referred to as the size of a planetoid. Our opponent is right that punching through planets isn't the same as busting them and right that this pushed Magneto to his limits, but throughout the scan he maintains the shield while walking around and conversing and (mostly importantly) protecting just himself and Gladiator rather than an entire asteroid will increase the potency of the shield while reducing the strain. There is no offense my opponent proposed that this would not block against at least for any initial blows.

The clincher for all of this is Gladiator's contribution to the fight. Defensively he's fine on his own, with demonstrated in-tier physicals, clear evidence that energy attacks from 616 Mjolnir are ineffectual against Gladiator, and the cold resistance that comes with his internal durability withstanding his own freeze breath that works over a superior range and creates far more ice than Cy's one nebulous ice feat. Glad's heat vision can also be used to block and interrupt projected energy attacks. All in all, he has the defense and offense to stand on his own in his fight, and the fact that he's running interference for Magneto, attacking his opponents during any attempts to counter Mag's attacks or defending Mag from counterattacks, seals the deal when it comes to winning this fight.

R2: Para/Supreme v. Kyle/Sodam

Win Con 1: Paragon counters- My opponent failed to fully address just how Paragon serves as a hard counter to 2 characters who are useless when improved versions of their own powers are used against them. To refocus what exactly it does when Paragon gains these powers, I want to make it clear that he can absorb and manipulate vast amounts of energy, be able to turn their own constructs against them or just outright absorb the constructs for a further power boost.

The only real counter to that my opponent can develop has been to attack at root Paragon's ability to absorb Kyle/Sodam's powers, so let's review a few of his defenses to that effect:

• The powers are inorganic- Since Paragon only copies organic abilities, my opponent has tried to argue that Kyle/Sodam's powers are inorganic. This already seemed to prove a moot point last round when we pointed out that Both Kyle/Sodam are stipulated to have Ion, which is clearly described organically. It's said to be a "symbiotic" entity that was "birthed" and "resided" before being "set free" and "wandering" before being "reined in." The personification in this language is a clear indicator that Ion is a living thing, but at bare minimum it is close enoughthat Paragon can can push himself to absorb it. Despite my opponent throwing Paragon's duplication of the Galactic Golem into question, the language is clear that that is exactly what he's doing. Despite my opponent's obtuse confusion when he says *"*I don't know what Qaws means that these characters have been buffed to have organic sources. Kyle's power still stems from his ring, and Ion as it always has, same power source, the ring is just physically inside him now. Sodam Yat is in the same boat" and "The genetic feat is possibly the worst feat interpretation I have seen in one of these debates from actually experienced debaters. The ring is keyed to his genetic template. DeSaad even says that Kyle is accessing an outside power source. It never says that the rings powers are due to his genetics." The point being made my opponent refuses to acknowledge is that the powers of the ring, and the Ion entity, are linked on an organic level that ensures Paragon's ability to copy their powers, especially given that he only needs a semblance of an organic status in order to copy. The scan above with Ion described in organic language also states that Ion's powerbase is "so greatly expanded, [Kyle] didn't need a power battery or power ring to manifest the emerald energy." All of the hoop jumping and deep dives into lore my opponent uses are methods to complicate the obviously organic basis for Kyle and Sodam's powers and are massive contortions of the logic "Paragon didn't copy a guy with a ring once." With the stipulations in place (and years of lore added on in-universe since Paragon fought Hal Jordan) there is mounds of evidence that this situation is not comparable, and that Paragon will be able to copy the GL abilities at play here.
• Too much power to copy- In another display of hoop jumping, my opponent tries to justify why Kyle/Sodam have too much power to absorb while still being in tier themselves. This is also a moot point, as Paragon would be copying Kyle/Sodam's ability to contain their energy just as he copies the ability itself. When Paragon copies Superman's abilities he does not need to absorb solar radiation like Superman does, he just gains Superman's powers straightforwardly. The only way Kyle/Sodam could deprive Paragon of copying their powers is for they themselves to lose those powers, and there is no evidence suggesting Paragon can be overloaded with power he cannot control considering that he absorbs the ability to control the power even better than the power's source.
• Failed to copy Red Tornado- The scan cited does not prove that Red Torando's powers at the time Paragon tried to copy them were organic, or even that he's organic anyways. The years of lore added on since Paragon and Red Tornado faced may have altered RT's powers and how they work, but the interpretation here again requires layers of assumptions to arrive to the conclusion my opponent draws. Did RT have an organic power source at the time Paragon faced him, is it even an organic power source, could Paragon have absorbed it if he applied effort like with the Cosmic Golem, did Paragon even really need to copy RT given he had the entire Justice League at his disposal at the time, etc etc. All these questions need convenient answers to create the antifeat my opponent wants.

Win Con 2: Brute Force- Even GL abilities aside, Kyle/Sodam are facing the raw physical force of Supreme himself and Paragon with Supreme/Sodam's physicals. Even without energy shenanigans there is an out and out brawl here that works to Team Supreme's favor, made clear by a comparison of the physical feats at play.

• Kyle/Sodam are weak- The biggest problem with Kyle/Sodam's planetary feats is that they are not analogous to a fight fight involving repeated planetary blows. Their energy beams show no ability to spam, especially not in the quick succession of several punches, and their energy defenses show the same problem. Their feats like this and this both require a charge up and stop after one shot. Similarly, their defensive feats like this and this (this latter one derived through scaling to other GLs) involve withstanding one off explosions rather than an offense concentrated into a punch, and again are performed in isolation rather than in succession to other planetary blows. In scrambling for planetary feats, and in using stretched and unfairly assumed scaling to do so, my opponent neglected to produce two characters who just out and out get in planetary fistfights.
• Supreme/Paragon are strong- There's been a lot of quibbling over Supreme's planet bust and his scaling to Gladiator who also planet busts. Both feats were "countered" by saying they aren't 1 hit planet busts, but in neither scan are Supreme/Glad actively trying to destroy a planet. In Gladiator's he is just letting off steam, and in Supreme's he is fistfighting someone and the partial planet bust is a byproduct of the fight. Even if each feat is interpreted as 1/2 or 1/3 a planet bust there is enough wiggle room that they would be fully planetary were their efforts concentrated. Even barring that, 2-3 punches would be multiplied several times over in the course of a fistfight, and as acknowledged Supreme/Glad could continue said fistfight for years vs. Kyle/Sodam who have no indication they could do so. In fear of this line of argumentation, my opponent gestured at an OoT claim without actually making one, but fails to acknowledge that the Tier Setter is explicitly able to trade multiple planetary blows at a level possibly far above Supreme--a trait Kyle/Sodam totally lack. Since Sodam is the only one of the two with in-tier physicals that don't rely on GL energy, it's basic math that Paragon could overpower him in a 1v1 and simple logic that the assistance of Supreme would clinch the melee for Paragon.

[u/mikhailnikolaievitch → u/mikhailnikolaievitch]

• Supreme's other powers help immensely- As was brought up last round, Supreme can absorb energy thrown at him to amp him. My opponent's only counter was to assume this does not work with GL energy, but Supreme's adaptation powers allows his body to counter new forms of energy he has not faced before. In combination with Supreme's ability to instantly break down all information about his opponents in order to adapt to specific attacks he gets a head start on this process before Kyle/Sodam even attack. Once we add in Paragon's copying/amplifying these abilities the equation becomes clear that both of them are immune to Kyle/Sodam's main method of attack, are even actively enhanced by it, and overcome anything Kyle/Sodam try that is not an out-and-out brawl.

R3: Scaling/Lore Problems

This area of the debate got so far removed from the fights themselves that I wanted to confine it to its own section. Across the board my opponent has stipulated his characters into composites that don't exist, scaled or just handed them feats they never perform, and at every turn defaulted to his own authority on lore/feat interp rather than actually outlining the assumptions necessary to arrive at the conclusions he uses. Let's start with the more egregious offense here.

The Fallen One does not automatically receive all of 616 Silver Surfer's feats

There are multiple layers to this argument, all of which my opponent blew past in order to equate Fallen to Surfer (and Fallen's ability to use Mjolnir with Thor's).

• They are different realities. Any slight alteration to the mainstream 616 universe creates a cascade effect that makes alternate realities/timelines incomparable to 616. This is the premise that the entire What If series is built on, with each issue being reality explicitly diverging at a singular point from the mainstream 616. When my opponent says *"What If's should be able to use the feats of the universes they spin off of if they were a future that was actually possible"*he both misunderstands how What Ifs work and my previous application of Surfer's appearance in a what if. The What If cited, much like other What Ifs details the specific divergent point from the mainstream canon. That comic then ends with Surfer dying by flying into the Sun, despite the fact that 616 Surfer never gives a fuck about a sun's heat. If Surfer's feats can vary so drastically after only a few days diverging from 616 canon, then the Fallen One after millions of years in an alternate future would vary only moreso. Since the language of alternate realities unsettled my opponent he switched gears to trying to differentiate between alt futures and alt realities, except...
• Alt futures are alt realities- Time travel intrinsically creates a divergent point in a timeline much like a What If. My opponent's own language reflects this: "Thanos in the 2016 series is 616 Thanos. As shown its just him time travelling to what was then his future, that he changed due to his trip there." There absolutely is no singular "616 future" in Marvel as there are always potential and near infinite timelines .The 616 is like its own reality in the present day. Similar events happening in different realities mean nothing, the reality-hopping Exiles travel from their own separate realities to one where the Dark Phoenix Saga is still taking place and many of them recall it. Time travel explicitly creates anomalies, so the mere fact that Thanos/Ghost Rider have traveled in and out of Earth TRN666 would sully any connection between Fallen One and 616 Surfer. In my opponent's own scan Ghost Rider refers to the timeline as "an alternate future." All futures in Marvel are like "alternate" futures because of the near-infinite branching timelines from any choice, and because they branch off one another their similar histories mean squat when trying to prove one timeline is the same as another. My opponent's entire argument rests on the assumptions that A) Time travel wouldn't radically alter a timeline when it explicitly does, and B) That two timelines are the same because they share similar histories, which is patently false.
• Even if they are the same, Fallen doesn't get 616 Surfer's feats- Even if the case is assumed that Fallen is the "real" future version of 616 Surfer, none of that outweighs the fact that he does not fight, act, or performs any of the feats my opponent performs. Throughout Fallen's every appearance he did nothing more complicated than punching, getting punched, and blasting energy. Maybe he's weaker than he used to be, or he forgot how to do all the things he used to do, or maybe in character he just doesn't choose to do any of these things. Even if they are the same character they clearly are different enough from eachother one can't assume a 1:1 comparison. In ignoring that, my opponent took isolated was comfortable assuming that 616 Silver Surfer talking smack once translates into an insurmountable attack against Gladiator, or contorting the above electromagnetic disruption into somehow cancelling Magneto's powers. Across the board he takes the tiniest feats, stretches this into something useful, and then assumes Fallen One will immediately default to that course of action. Most specifically he did this with...
• Fallen One definitely doesn't get Thor's Mjolnir feats- Fallen One spent millennia sitting trying to become worthy to wield Mjolnir, and yet my opponent reasons that he "spent an incredibly long amount of time with Mjolnir in order to become worthy. He has plenty of experience with it" to justify why Fallen can use its esoteric abilities. He spent an incredibly long time next to it, not using it, and shows no ability to do anything more complicated with it than hurl lightning bolts. The application of feats like this, let alone the sheer weight put into them as a win condition, should evidence thoroughly my opponent's extreme willingness to interpret anything to his convenience and undermine the rest of these lore-entrenched arguments.

Even all of that aside, Fallen demonstrably does not put out a planetary offense. Without scaling to Surfer (whose feats similarly to Kyle/Sodam involve big energy blasts rather than a fistfight) Fallen is solely capable of taking a possibly planetary beating and nothing more.

Superman scaling is not reliable

Cyborg and Sodam both leaned heavily on scaling to Superman and the arguments surrounding that became extremely complicated due to Superman's inconsistency for the tier. Admittedly Qaws and I will cop to a misstep for a couple feats here, but far from all of the inconsistencies were addressed and the ones that were relied on contextualizing Superman's power levels dependent on various factors like how recently he died or how much sun he had absorbed. The missteps aside, the fact still remains that this is a problematic area to place so much importance on.

The mere fact that Superman's power level can vary so wildly, from extremely below tier to extremely above it, makes any vague comparisons to him nebulous. Is he planetary during the times the comparisons were made? Have Cy/Sodam absorbed enough solar radiation to make them specifically planetary as well? The fact is we don't know--we have only my opponent's convenient assumptions to establish their basis as somehow perfectly in tier.

Conclusion

Rather than debate the fight straightforwardly, my opponent relies in both matches on several series of convenient assumptions, strained feat interpretation highly particularized to his favor, and avoidance of describing how the battles actually proceed.

Magneto destroys Cy and Fallen on exterior and interior levels with Gladiator's support. Paragon and Supreme absorb and redirect Kyle and Sodam's energy constructs and overpower them straightforwardly. All of the lore and deflection around this is dressing to these simple win conditions.

[u/andrewspornalt → u/mikhailnikolaievitch]

Response 3 1/3

This attack bypasses strength and durability altogether, as he liquefies it on a molecular level. Two metal opponents are a joke to Magneto, and the only joke bigger in this debate has been the laughable defense to counter this. Let's look at each of these counters:

Opening with a liquefying attack is OOC for Magneto. He has never used it one someone like Cyborg Superman and you didn't address our argument that even if Magneto can disassemble Cyborg Superman's body he could make his non organic body out of any material lying around.

Nullifying Magneto's powers- My opponent has 3 scans to try to justify Fallen One nullifying Magneto's powers and draws almost his entire defense from it. The scans are here, here, and here. In none of those feats are an individual's powers cancelled out, in none of them are they the character's first course of action, and there is no indication that their effects last for more than even a moment. More particularly, the first scan is just 616 Surfer creating a disruptive barrier rather than cancelling powers, and the other two are Thor using Mjolnir to absorb magnetic energy rather than cancelling powers. Both the Mjolnir feats (a huge IF on if they even apply to Fallen One, addressed later) even take a significant amount of time and focus to perform and neither involves cancelling powers at all. In the first Thor is just drawing in energy to release a blast, and in the second Thor is drawing in Magneto's shield--and Magneto flies out of his grasp immediately after that happens! For how much weight was put on this strategy there is 0 evidence that these feats (if they are even applicable) would work the way my opponent described.

Absorbing magnetic fields/energy would nullify Magneto's powers by definition. He literally can't function without them. Also in these scans it shows the cancelling of magnetic fields through shields or absorption.

though Cyborg has never resisted such a thing, this feat was used to propose Cy's metal control was superior to Magneto's, despite the fact that the feat clearly required a lot of concentration, explicitly involved advanced robots blurring the line between hacking and metal control, and ultimately has nothing to do with resisting an attack on himself

Point out that the robots are rising to make a giant fist without actually moving their limbs/in a configuration hat moving their limbs makes no sense, and that it is many magniitudes better than Mag's feats so even if it takes effort him achieving half the feat still stomps Mag

feats, then Magneto was able to pull a city-sized bullet (easily more metal than Cy manipulated in his feat) to Earth from a solar system away while generating an impenetrable forcefield around his body

Pulling the city sized bullet almost kills Magneto. What makes this feat even worse is that the bullet is clearly hollow so it's even less impressive than Mikhail claims.

Random superhuman nonsense is not a defense, and Cy has never resisted the attacks Magneto brings to the table.

This is not a defense against Magneto disassembling him it is a counter. By the way Mikhail and Qaws never refuted that Cyborg Superman could just reform his body with rock or whatever.

Even aside from the fact that it's established how easily Magneto could manipulate/destroy the electrical energy form that allows Cy to do this

Point out that he is not electricity as shown due this his resistance to Superman Blue (who as shown has superior EMP feats to Mag). Also point out that Mag has only taken out an energy being made of electrons

Given that the arena is a city, he would be hard pressed (and out of character) to find non-metallic materials in the first place, but regardless it is absurd to think that he would at all be competitive in the tier or maintain any of his esoteric attacks after constructing himself out of concrete and wood or whatever. If the argument is that he can reform himself easily out of anything in the arena, and that he maintains all his feats after doing so, that really begs the question how he could possibly be in tier.

Point out that he is half organic, and can just use random material to keep him on his feet. He still has his normal strength due to his organic component. Also point out that cities are made of concrete, glass, etc not just metal (probably more concrete/brick than metal)

For Fallen One the scans pointing out the obvious, that a man called the Silver Surfer is metallic, were laughed off rather than addressed. In name, description, and appearance it is not at all a stretch to say that 616 Surfer's body is composed of metal.

You guys ignored that Fallen One's skin isn't silver its more akin to gasoline per the author. Additionally silver colored things =/= silver. Many plastics can look silvery, but are made of an acrylic. You have literally no evidence that it is silver beyond "well silver is in the name".

We see under his skin when Surtur's blade cuts him. Point out it appears to be energy, not human skin. Point out they are using a early Surfer and Surfer evolves to lack his biological component we see this when he's cut.

Since so much of the opponent's offense and defense relies on arguments involving energy

In all of our arguments we have pointed out that everyone on our team can bust planets through strength. For Cyborg Superman we argued that he can just straight up destroy a planet. For Sodom Yat we also argued that he scaled to Superman and other Kryptonians. For Fallen One we argued that he scales to weaker Heralds who bust planets. For Kyle we argued that he can throw people hard enough to bust a moon.

Magneto has absolutely manipulated Phoenix's energy against her, and Onslaught is literally a more powerful version of Magneto. The scan previously linked of Magneto destroying the energy being Proteus

The energy being is made of electrons. The Phoenix is a psychic entity and Magneto is a powerful latent telepath

Cyborg's energy form seems to be electricalin nature given his preference for inhabiting machines and his ability to read computer data in that form

That is not electricity it is a soul he explicitly mentions this when he comes back. This is in line with how DC represents the soul as Swamp Thing's soul was also able to travel through and manipulate electronics. Cyborg superman is not just a computer. He is also half organic.

Fallen One's attacks remain useless because of this energy manipulation. Magneto blocks the cosmic energy of the Phoenix Force, or blasts of heat energy, or the nuclear energy of atomic bombs all alike. He can absorb lightning or throw it back at his attacker, and that's only even if Magneto doesn't steal Fallen One's TRN666 Mjolnir like he does the 616 one.

Phoenix Force is psychic energy, not the power cosmic. Magneto has never controlled Mjolnir while it was in Thor's hands and Fallen one does not throw Mjolnir.

I want to make it clear that he can absorb and manipulate vast amounts of energy, be able to turn their own constructs against them or just outright absorb the constructs for a further power boos

All these abilities stem from their rings, something that Paragon can't copy.

It's said to be a "symbiotic" entity that was "birthed" and "resided" before being "set free" and "wandering" before being "reined in." The personification in this language is a clear indicator that Ion is a living thing, but at bare minimum it is close enoughthat Paragon can can push himself to absorb it

Ultron could also be considered having been "born" and then "reined in" by Pymtron. Point out that Cyborg in DC has a symbiotic relationship with his mother box, but its not organic. Ion is made of Energy, pure willpower. He is the source of all GLs energy. Even if Ion was organic if he couldn't copy Hal he can't copy Sodam or Kyle.

Despite my opponent throwing Paragon's duplication of the Galactic Golem into question, the language is clear that that is exactly what he's doing. Despite my opponent's obtuse confusion when he says

All the scans in your RT don't actually indicate that he got the powers of the Golem. Trying to copy two inorganic sources will certainly kill him. (I couldn't find the scans for this one.)

The point being made my opponent refuses to acknowledge is that the powers of the ring, and the Ion entity, are linked on an organic level that ensures Paragon's ability to copy their powers, especially given that he only needs a semblance of an organic status in order to copy.

This is 100% untrue for Sodam Yat who just has a normal GL ring with Ion residing inside it and that Kyle and that even if he can copy Kyle's, as pointed out repeatedly Kyle's power is too much for a normal S tier to handle. Copying it, but greater would kill Paragon/Paragon has never copied anyone as strong as Kyle

o states that Ion's powerbase is "so greatly expanded, [Kyle] didn't need a power battery or power ring to manifest the emerald energy."

Ion at the time Kyle had him was fused with Parallax. It doesn't represent his normal power

Paragon didn't copy a guy with a ring once." With the stipulations in place (and years of lore added on in-universe since Paragon fought Hal Jordan) there is mounds of evidence that this situation is not comparable, and that Paragon will be able to copy the GL abilities at play here.

Paragon spent the entire time between his first apperance and last rotting in a jail cell. He has no growth as a character in any major way.

[u/andrewspornalt → u/andrewspornalt]

In another display of hoop jumping, my opponent tries to justify why Kyle/Sodam have too much power to absorb while still being in tier themselves. This is also a moot point, as Paragon would be copying Kyle/Sodam's ability to contain their energy just as he copies the ability itself. When Paragon copies Superman's abilities he does not need to absorb solar radiation like Superman does, he just gains Superman's powers straightforwardly. The only way Kyle/Sodam could deprive Paragon of copying their powers is for they themselves to lose those powers, and there is no evidence suggesting Paragon can be overloaded with power he cannot control considering that he absorbs the ability to control the power even better than the power's source.

Paragon has never copied anyone as strong as Ion Kyle. This is a no limits fallacy on Mikhail and Qaws' part. Even if it was possible to copy Kyle Paragon can only copy objective biological traits like intelligence or demonstrable feats like skill. Copying someone's will power does not fall under these two categories. Without will power the ring is useless.

The scan cited does not prove that Red Torando's powers at the time Paragon tried to copy them were organic, or even that he's organic anyways. The years of lore added on since Paragon and Red Tornado faced may have altered RT's powers and how they work, but the interpretation here again requires layers of assumptions to arrive to the conclusion my opponent draws. Did RT have an organic power source at the time Paragon faced him, is it even an organic power source, could Paragon have absorbed it if he applied effort like with the Cosmic Golem, did Paragon even really need to copy RT given he had the entire Justice League at his disposal at the time, etc etc. All these questions need convenient answers to create the antifeat my opponent wants.

Red Tornado's origin has always been that he's a magic tornado trapped in the body of a robot. All of his powers outside of durability and strength stem from his nature as a air elemental, which is magic. If our opponent wants to argue that he can't copy magic, fair, but that means he can't copy Kyle's powers due to their partial magical origin.

Also he fought Hal/Red Tornado for a few seconds and just those few seconds were enough for him to lose

especially not in the quick succession of several punches, and their energy defenses show the same problem.

Sodam took dozens of hits from SBP who as shown earlier is planetary and in our first response we showed Kyle take a ton of hits from Tyrant

Similarly, their defensive feats like this and this (this latter one derived through scaling to other GLs) involve withstanding one off explosions rather than an offense concentrated into a punch, and again are performed in isolation rather than in succession to other planetary blows.

Did you just completely ignore the scaling from SBP and Tyrant?

Both feats were "countered" by saying they aren't 1 hit planet busts, but in neither scan are Supreme/Glad actively trying to destroy a planet. In Gladiator's he is just letting off steam

If Gladiator never has an obvious on screen planet bust it seems disingenuous to argue that he is a planet buster. That would be like me saying "oh but I chunked a planet once when I was angry so I should be a planet buster". Also wouldn't "letting off steam" imply that he's hitting the planet as hard as possible

In fear of this line of argumentation, my opponent gestured at an OoT claim without actually making one, but fails to acknowledge that the Tier Setter is explicitly able to trade multiple planetary blows at a level possibly far above Supreme

You argued that Supreme and Gladiator are planet busters who could fight each other for years at a time. That is different from tanking planetary blows for a few minutes during the fight. Also we're arguing that Supreme isn't as good as you claim, but that doesn't change the fact that the way your team has represented him is possibly OOT.

The What If cited, much like other What Ifs details the specific divergent point from the mainstream canon. That comic then ends with Surfer dying by flying into the Sun, despite the fact that 616 Surfer never gives a fuck about a sun's heat. If Surfer's feats can vary so drastically after only a few days diverging from 616 canon, then the Fallen One after millions of years in an alternate future would vary only moreso. Since the language of alternate realities unsettled my opponent he switched gears to trying to differentiate between alt futures and alt realities, except...

Characters have anti-feats, for that What if 616 is canon to it, but it is not canon to 616. Additionally as pointed out Cosmic Ghost Rider states 616 Norrin Radd is the one he fights There is also no evidence that he future is an alt reality other than a wiki page

Alt futures are alt realities- Time travel intrinsically creates a divergent point in a timeline much like a What If. My opponent's own language reflects this: "Thanos in the 2016 series is 616 Thanos. As shown its just him time travelling to what was then his future, that he changed due to his trip there."

This is wrong. We linked a scan showing that Thanos' action in the present ended the Old King Thanos timeline. As in explicetly his + Gamorra's actions erased the future

Even if the case is assumed that Fallen is the "real" future version of 616 Surfer, none of that outweighs the fact that he does not fight, act, or performs any of the feats my opponent performs.

Point out that it is stated he did as we stated in our first response with him having the same tale as Norrin Radd and that he died quickly after appearing

The mere fact that Superman's power level can vary so wildly, from extremely below tier to extremely above it, makes any vague comparisons to him nebulous. Is he planetary during the times the comparisons were made? Have Cy/Sodam absorbed enough solar radiation to make them specifically planetary as well? The fact is we don't know--we have only my opponent's convenient assumptions to establish their basis as somehow perfectly in tier.

We used feats for Superman from after his limits were taken off.

Also Cy as we are running him has been around nearly as long as Supes and grew his body from Supes' solar drenched cells. Sodam has been alive for 1000 years by the time we are running him, plenty of time to match Superman's solar reseves

cold resistance that comes with his internal durability withstanding his own freeze breath that works over a superior range and creates far more ice than Cy's one nebulous ice feat.

Creating freeze breath does not mean Gladiator has resistance to cold attacks. Even if it did it still wouldn't be enough. Cy is on par with Superman who can freeze skyscraper sized chunks of water the best Gladiator can do is freeze a water tank.

[u/andrewspornalt → u/andrewspornalt]

OOT for Supreme

Supreme is OOT based on how our opponents are presenting him as a planet buster who can take an extended fight with another planet buster. They then argue he can fight this planet buster for thousands of years and continue to maintain this throughout most of their debate. If both are earth sized planet busters, or even 1/3rd, being able to fight for 1000 years is OOT. Based on this argument it would take the tier setter thousand of years to take out Supreme. On top of that as argued they believe Supreme can absorb any type of energy. This means he can absorb Superman's heat vision, allowing him to continuously amp himself

The clincher though is Supreme's adaption. Supreme adapted to a character whose powers largely derive from solar radiation, and his powers nearly automatically adapt by creating a way to prevent his body from processing its energy/accessing it. Essentially this scan shows that he has a way to completely shut off Superman's powers. Maybe his adaption won't happen immediately (though our opponents have never argued it takes a long time), but he has 1000 years.

[u/andrewspornalt → u/andrewspornalt]

/u/mikhailnikolaievitch /u/Qawsedf234

[u/Qawsedf234 → u/andrewspornalt]

OoT Response: Supreme

Supreme's stamina

This argument was essentially addressed in our last response and our opponents failed to acknowledge it. As we said:

There's been a lot of quibbling over Supreme's planet bust and his scaling to Gladiator who also planet busts. ... In fear of this line of argumentation, my opponent gestured at an OoT claim without actually making one, but fails to acknowledge that the Tier Setter is explicitly able to trade multiple planetary blows at a level possibly far above Supreme

The ability to fight for years was cited as evidence of Supreme/Gladiator's stamina more than anything else, and was brought up given the lack of evidence for Kyle/Sodam having anything near that level of stamina and played into our overarching argument that their planetary strikes are not spammable. The Hype Post clarified

"for the purposes of this tourney, superman is strong enough to destroy the planet earth with one punch, and can survive several punches of that magnitude without being knocked out"

The wiggle room on this is extremely high and could be well above Glad/Supreme's feats. While the extenuating circumstances of their planet busts give them the room to possibly bust a planet in one punch, that's the bare minimum interpretation for Tier Setter Supes' strength, and the amount of "several" punches he can take is entirely ambiguous.

Supreme can fight for awhile, but not for thousands of years. It was our opponents who turned "a few years" into "a thousand years." He is capable of taking damage, being injured, and being knocked out in long drawn out fights. He fought Omni-Man for awhile but ended up being knocked out, he fought his clone for awhile but could still damage his self and end him with a neck snap. Supreme can fight against someone of similar power for a long time yes, but he doesn't have infinite reserves nor could he take punches from other planet busters for thousands of years. But again, we never even argued that he could fight for thousands of years. The most that was said was a couple of years--it was our opponents who turned that into 1000 years.

At no point did we portray Supreme as being so massively strong that he could take Tier Setter Supes' strikes in perpetuity, and we explicitly said in our last response that he was likely weaker than the Tier Setter.

Heat Vision

Supreme could amp himself off of Superman's heat vision, but Superman can also easily counter this ability by just not using his heat vision. Unlike Kyle/Sodam, Superman does not rely heavily on his heat vision and as soon as he saw it was ineffectual would have no reason to continue using it. The amp itself is nebulous, and given the interpretation of Tier Setter > Supreme a brief amp would not even make a massive difference.

Energy Adaptation

Supreme adapted to the fight with Heavy Mettle due to him having a weapon capable of harming Supreme. When faced against a clone of himself, Gladiator, Omni-Man, Suprema, and Khrome Supreme never evolved powers that would allow him to shut down his opponent. He adapts to counter unusual powers and abilities, not pure physicals. Even if Supreme could shut off Superman's solar absorption he's physically weaker than Superman, less skilled, and none of his non-physical feats indicate he could harm Superman with his Beta-Vision or anything. So he'd still be on the losing end of the fight.

The adaptation was presented as a defensive means of countering energy attacks, not as an offensive means of haxing through the competition. His adaptation does not allow him to overcome physically stronger opponents.

Cyborg Superman Was Presented As OoT

Our opponents presented the ability to spam planetary attacks in perpetuity as OoT, yet also presented Cyborg Superman's ability to reform his body while (somehow) maintaining his feats as an option Tier Setter Superman would have 0 counter to. Out of concern for them we addressed this in our last response, saying:

there is no evidence that Cy would maintain all of his feats after reassembling himself from materials in the arena. Given that the arena is a city, he would be hard pressed (and out of character) to find non-metallic materials in the first place, but regardless it is absurd to think that he would at all be competitive in the tier or maintain any of his esoteric attacks after constructing himself out of concrete and wood or whatever. If the argument is that he can reform himself easily out of anything in the arena, and that he maintains all his feats after doing so, that really begs the question how he could possibly be in tier.

Rather than address the concerns that point addresses, my opponent doubled down on there Cyborg Reforms Himself From Anything defense, saying:

He has never used it one someone like Cyborg Superman and you didn't address our argument that even if Magneto can disassemble Cyborg Superman's body he could make his non organic body out of any material lying around.

and

This is not a defense against Magneto disassembling him it is a counter. By the way Mikhail and Qaws never refuted that Cyborg Superman could just reform his body with rock or whatever.

and all the while insisted that Cyborg scales to Superman's strongest showings

We used feats for Superman from after his limits were taken off.

Also Cy as we are running him has been around nearly as long as Supes and grew his body from Supes' solar drenched cells.

As my opponents described him, there is no feasible means for Tier Setter Superman to win against Cyborg Superman. He's physically equal to Superman, his heat vision to superior to Superman's heat vision, his ring allows him to use ranged planet busting attacks, and he can create endless bodies due to the environment. While Magneto had the option of destroying his energy form itself, there is nothing to indicate that Tier Setter Superman could counter an opponent hopping from one material to another endlessly while continuing to throw out planetary strikes.

Sodam Yat was presented as OoT

This one is just simple math. Sodam Yat was presented as having physicals equal to Superman on a planetary level, yet also having the addition of GL powers that give him more planetary power in addition to an endless variety of esoteric attacks and ranged options. For his physicals, they said:

In all of our arguments we have pointed out that everyone on our team can bust planets through strength... For Sodom Yat we also argued that he scaled to Superman and other Kryptonians.

and

Sodam took dozens of hits from SBP who as shown earlier is planetary and in our first response we showed Kyle take a ton of hits from Tyrant

and

Sodam has been alive for 1000 years by the time we are running him, plenty of time to match Superman's solar reseves

and for his GL powers, they said:

Sodam Yat has used energy blasts to destroy a planet sized object.

while also arguing for Sodam having planetary shields and a gamut of ranged offensive attacks involving piercing, gas, electricity, heat, and other attacks.

Energy Manip

There is a far stronger case for Sodam haxing Tier Setter Superman's reliance on solar energy apart than there is for Supreme, so if the case against Supreme in that area is legitimate it is extremely more so with Sodam.

Kyle was stipulated to be unable to create Kryptonite, but Sodam wasn't. Sodam has a feat in his RT of manipulating solar energy to turn it from yellow to red, and of course red sun radiation weakens Superman. If he did not transform the sun itself into red solar energy he could just do so directly on the energy stored in Tier Setter Superman's cells.

The issue of using energy manipulation to be OoT is an extremely fragile glass house for our opponents. To say that Supreme, who never absorbs energy to depower an opponent, is OoT for doing something Sodam, who literally has a feat doing exactly that, does is the height of hypocrisy.

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/u/andrewspornalt /u/ame-no-nobuko

[u/Ame-no-nobuko → u/Qawsedf234]

OOT Response

Cyborg Superman

Our opponents presented the ability to spam planetary attacks in perpetuity as OoT, yet also presented Cyborg Superman's ability to reform his body while (somehow) maintaining his feats as an option Tier Setter Superman would have 0 counter to. Out of concern for them we addressed this in our last response, saying:

He can reform himself out of other material if it is destroyed, however it does not help against a KO, which is still a viable strategy and his "healing factor" does not help at all. Doomsday was capable of temporarily incapping him, and Supes has succeeded in beating him before. As shown people who we have argued are planetary can take out Cyborg Superman. Never once did we argue that this powerset can be used to counter KOs/blunt force, just being ripped apart.

and all the while insisted that Cyborg scales to Superman's strongest showings

I mean they aren't his strongest. His strongest would be outliers like tearing apart reality in a fight. The way Superman was argued throughout this fight was as a character who is fairly casually Earth busting. Cyborg is presented as being marginally stronger than that, but not to an extent that Supes still can't win (as shown)

As my opponents described him, there is no feasible means for Tier Setter Superman to win against Cyborg Superman.

He can be punched out

his heat vision to superior to Superman's heat vision

Irrelevant as its sun level temperature, which is something Supes can take without issue

Superman could counter an opponent hopping from one material to another endlessly while continuing to throw out planetary strikes.

As shown he can be KO'd and even if he isn't, if his organic body is destroyed then his strength feats don't carry over to a new body. As argued only his organic half would keep feats from previously.

Sodam Yat

This one is just simple math. Sodam Yat was presented as having physicals equal to Superman on a planetary level, yet also having the addition of GL powers that give him more planetary power in addition to an endless variety of esoteric attacks and ranged options.

I don't believe we ever argued what Superman's durability was, or what a base GL's strength is. As we pointed out Sodam Yat fought, but lost a fight with Superboy Prime only doing marginally better than PC Superman. Nothing indicates he's like Superman x10 and we never argued as such.

while also arguing for Sodam having planetary shields and a gamut of ranged offensive attacks involving piercing, gas, electricity, heat, and other attacks.

We never argued he had piercing or electricity, just heat and gas. Heat is again sun level at best, so doesn't do anything to Superman and piercing isn't sufficient to cut Superman. Just because Kyle can do a feat doesn't mean Sodam can. Kyle unlike rando GLs is one of the strongest and is the most creative GL in history. Feats can't be crossed over like that and we never attempted to do so

Kyle was stipulated to be unable to create Kryptonite, but Sodam wasn't.

The Kyle stipulation wasn't even necessary. Kryptonians are only impacted by kryptonite from their home universe. Sodam is from Post Crisis, the tier setter is from new 52. This also assumes he thinks to use kryptonite as he has never attempted to use it against a kryptonian, despite fighting a few

Sodam has a feat in his RT of manipulating solar energy to turn it from yellow to red

As I pointed out during tribunals this feat required him to physically enter the sun, and it killed him. Entering the sun is out of bounds and would mean he DQ's himself

If he did not transform the sun itself into red solar energy he could just do so directly on the energy stored in Tier Setter Superman's cells.

Again Sodam has fought kryptonians before. He never did this. If he could turn the energy inside of a kryptonians cells to red solar energy he would've stomped Superboy Prime, but he didn't, he got beaten down and put into a coma.

The issue of using energy manipulation to be OoT is an extremely fragile glass house for our opponents. To say that Supreme, who never absorbs energy to depower an opponent, is OoT for doing something Sodam, who literally has a feat doing exactly that, does is the height of hypocrisy.

In the scan I linked Supreme literally depowered a solar powered being. Sodam has never done that