r/whowouldwin • u/Verlux ​ • Jan 27 '20

Event The Great Debate Season 9 Round 3!!!

Rules

Out of Tier Rules

  • For Out of Tier requests, simply ping myself and/or Chainsaw__Monkey and state your case for why you believe someone's combatant is out of tier, then proceed with the debate as per normal. We will evaluate that request individual of the debate itself and make our decision in judgments.

Battle Rules

  • Speed - movement speed and combat speed will be set at Mach 1, reaction speeds to 8ms, and all projectiles will be relatively equalized. See hype post for details

  • Battleground: The Great Debate arena has traveled across fiction, from a coliseum, to the Mines of Moria, to Asgard herself. Now, however, we bring the Great Debate to the most elaborate arena to be destroyed yet: Obliterate the Chinese City of Sai from the manga Kingdom. The City of Sai is a return to open-ended maps wherein combatants are offered a larger amount of freedom, and also a return to no extraneous restrictions upon combatants. The city is a 1 mile by 1 mile square, with the first inner wall being 2/3 of that size, and the second inner wall being 2/3 of the first wall's size.

    • Combatants spawn in the very center of the City in the barren area clearly visible on the map, 500 meters away from one another
    • The city is NOT occupied, yet all structures are intact, the walls are 5 meters high and 2 meters thick solid stone, every structure has numerous Chinese Warring States-era weapons in it, and the time of day is variable to each person to best suit whatever conditions are necessary for them to operate at maximum/stipulated efficiency; time paradoxes are ignored, as personalized bubbles of time supersede normal concepts of time in this arena due to my saying so. These have zero effect upon battle other than allowing those with time-specific conditions to compete per normal
    • In team battles, combatants spawn into the arena with weapons holstered and no abilities active as per usual, and are in a line left-to-right based on submission order, with 10 meters between each allied combatant

Submission Rules

  • Tier: Must be able to win an unlikely victory, draw/near draw, or likely victory against DuraBelle in the conditions outlined above; do note that the City of Sai will possess perfect weaponry for DuraBelle to pick up and optimize her damage output as such. All entrants will be bloodlusted against DuraBelle, meaning they will act fully rationally and put down their opponent in the quickest, most efficient manner possible regardless of morality, utilizing any and all possible techniques/tactics/attacks if necessary. The bloodlust does not give any foreknowledge of her or her capabilities.

Debate Rules

  • Rounds will last 4-5 days, hopefully from Monday until Thursday or Friday of each week of the tourney; there is a 48 hour time limit both on starting (we do not care who starts, you and your opponent can figure that out) AND on responses, AND ADDITIONALLY each user MUST get in two responses or else be disqualified. If one user waits until the very last minute to force this rule to DQ their opponent without any forewarning to their opponents or the tournament supervisors, they will be removed from this tournament, no exceptions.

  • Format for each round: both respondents get Intro + 1st Response, then 2nd response, then a 3rd response and closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. EACH RESPONSE MUST BE NO LONGER THAN THREE REDDIT COMMENTS LONG WITH A HARD CAP OF 25,000 CHARACTERS SPLIT BETWEEN THE THREE.

  • Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are determined by randomization. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa. First Round will be determined by coin flip.

Brackets Here

Determined by coin flip, the first round was a 3v3 Team Melee, so the third round shall be:

3v3 Team Melee

Round 3 Ends Friday January 31st, 23:59 CST

  • Format for each round: both respondents get Intro + 1st Response, then 2nd response, then a 3rd response and closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. EACH RESPONSE MUST BE NO LONGER THAN THREE REDDIT COMMENTS LONG WITH A HARD CAP OF 25,000 CHARACTERS SPLIT BETWEEN THE THREE.

  • Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are randomized based on sign up order via an internet list randomizer. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa. First Round will be determined by coin flip, and as it is 3v3s, next shall be 1v1, and so on and so forth.

Special Note: Keep in mind that the battlefield itself is littered with useful weaponry and buildings, so don't ignore that.

Adendum: due to being posted at a fucky time, first responses will be given an additional window of response consisting of 10 hours (i.e. you have 58, not 48 hours), and in general time limits this round will not be strictly enforced so long as quotas are met

Links to:

Hype Post

Sign Ups

Tribunal

Round 1

Round 2

6 Upvotes

88% Upvoted

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1

u/GuyOfEvil ​ Jan 28 '20

Four D: Haru Dies

My opponent's counter to Mao Pam being able to really easily kill Haru is pretty weak.

Firstly, they completely ignore Haru's garbage piercing and slashing resistance, something Clownmuffle or Mao Pam could exploit super easily. If this is true, Mao Pam can literally just merc him at the start of the fight with a spear attack, thus making the fight a super easily winnable 2v3.

His counter to the cold not working is also basically nothing. The arguments are basically that Haru has cold resistance, and that it takes time to cool the area. The first two are false, and the third is not wrong but doesnt really matter considering Mao Pam probably doesn't need to get the temperature all the way down to start damaging Haru.

For the first, Haru's "cold resistance feat" is him being hit by a fire and ice attack at the same time. Its not even clear if he's being hit by the ice, if the attack is actually trying to damage you by cold or just like, hitting you with ice, and he's literally being hit by fire at the same time. This feat doesn't actually demonstrate literally any degree of cold resistance.

So in total, Haru dies pretty much instantly from one of many attacks Mao Pam can just throw out at the start of the fight, leaving my opponent massively disadvantaged from the get go.

Rebuttals

Clownmuffle dissapearing

I think my opponent's interpretation of this feat is pretty obviously inaccurate. He argues that Clownmuffle hides herself using glass shards and then disappears. The feat pretty clearly describes Clownmuffle shattering into shards, with "pressed against a Clownmuffle whose shape bent and twisted inward, bent and twisted, bent and twisted—then snap! collapsed in a glittering shower of shards" The shape itself collapsed, the shards didnt just appear. The section is from Clownmuffle's point of view, so it almost certainly happened the way she describes.

Even if my opponent's interpretation is correct, it would imply Clownmuffle being kinda obscured by glass is enough to teleport, which would be an easy as fuck condition to meet.

Clownmuffle healing

My oponment says confetti is used to obscure Clownmuffle, which, again, would not fully obscure a person to an entire crowd. Secondly, he claims the pumpkin thing isn't healing, and is rather necromancy, which is clearly untrue considering Murrie is clearly still alive as a pumpkin and even regains her head later in the chapter somehow. Rover in no way prevents Clownmuffle from healing herself or others.

Rover targeting Clownmuffle's soul gem

The argument that Rover would target a person's head is pretty easily countered by him missing the head. Its even more unlikely for him to hit a small gem in somebody's hat.

Nanoha's shield

I don't really understand my oponment's contentions against Graf Eisen scaling. I established how strong Nanoha's shields are pre upgrade, established that Graf Eisen can break them, then established that it can no longer break them after the upgrades. This seems like pretty clear and succinct scaling, and I dont know why I would need to establish the strength of Graf Eisen for it to work.

Conclusion

My opponent has failed to prove his primary win condition, Rover being willing to kill my team, is true. As it stands there is reason to believe Rover will pursue nonlethal options and no reason to believe he will not. He has likewise failed to prove Flashbang would be willing to kill, or even that Flashbang would be motivated to win. Finally, he has failed to prove Haru doesn't die instantly to any number of piercing attacks my team has access to.

Every single member of his team has massive, obvious flaws he has failed to sufficiently address. Without definitely disproving all three contentions against his team, my opponent cannot win, and with the lack of evidence to support his position on all three cases, it is nigh impossible for my opponent to win.

3

u/Po_Biotic Jan 28 '20

OOT Request for literally every member of Guy’s Team

/u/GuyOfEvil - /u/Verlux - /u/chainsaw__monkey

Nanoha

Clownmuffle

Mao Pam

2

u/Po_Biotic Jan 29 '20

Response 3, Part 1

I'm gonna try and keep this short as I'll going to put my stock in your entire team being OOT.

On Rover

The Cloak

The fact that he uncloaks before the bullet hits is pretty clear indication that he doesn't uncloak for any real reason other than just kinda wanting to.

Especially when compounded by the fact that he never recloaks despite the alien having never shown any way to detect him

Valentia is massively outspeeding this enemy

  • Dodging projectile in no way correlates to "massively outspeeding an enemy"

In-Character

I asked my opponent if Rover would be willing to instantly go for lethal options when he has access to several nonlethal options.

  • Rover's Offensive Gear

    • Railgun with the ability to fire plasma bolts. No options for variable strength.
    • Energy pistol. No options for energy pistol.
    • Bombs.
    • Knife.

  • His non-lethal options translate to "Punch them and hope it doesn't kill." or "Hogtie them with the grappling hook."

    • Even if he had feats for using his gear in this way, by the time he would have the opportunity to exercise one of those options, the enemy them would have started using their powers, which would cause Rover to begin operating as his feats suggest. Shooting shit.

unless my opponent can provide evidence for Rover being ok with just kinda murdering superheroes.

He also has no reason to assume any level of strength on the part of my team, there are almost certainly way more children not at his level of power than children at his level of power.

  • Except for normal children typically don't get teleported into an arena with the condition being "Fight"

Accuracy

Rover aimed for the head on a stationary target and hit the shoulder

Flashbang

WoG/Self-Harm

Unfortunately for my opponent, this holds no water in this debate.

  • I was told as this is not transformative, it would be allowed. If not, so be it. Ss I also made two points in my last response for why Flashbang doesn't care. - Outward directional output and the fact he just is too durable for his own stuff.

I'm don't really understand why this is the case. The powers are emitted directionally from Flashbang's body, and the directionality of their powers would have nothing to do with not being blinded by their own light, if they looked at a bright light they would be blinded. This point is either complete nonsense or requires clarification

  • Physics 101. Waves travel outward from their source and only reflect back if something reflects them. It's why you aren't blinded by standing behind a flashlight and looking at the beam from behind it.

In-Character

Can my opponent prove Flashbang has any reason to care about this goal?

And as a last point here, I would note that Flashbang is essentially entirely barred from doing anything other than directional attacks, thanks to the rules that bar you from attacking allies

Flashbang Effectiveness

Flashbang's sound is actually a fairly ineffective method of attack.

  • It's slow, but has been argued as a method of CC, not a primary ranged attack. That's what his light's blinding effect is for.

In terms of defense against Flashbang, I would also point out that Clownmuffle is consistently able to produce mirrors, essentially wherever she wants, regardless of sight, which would invalidate the light in a huge amount of cases.

  • High enough heat will still melt mirrors. It's why mirrors on satellites have to be specially made. Unless you have proof her mirrors can withstand heat that can metal glass and metal, I will say this feat doesn't apply.

Its a similar story with Flashbang's heat. The calcs allow my opponent to posit that Flashbang is massively stronger than the light in this video, but all that really gets him is nebulously stronger than some metal melting and some burns to one side of a hot dog. How much this would actually impact a human is pretty much entirely unclear by feats.

  • Fun fact, I copy-pasted that from my last debate where my opponent's character had no heat resistance. Yours do, I did not use it as an argument because it would be clear after short use that it is ineffective as a means of burning. However, I have still made the claim that it's light blinds, which has yet to be countered.

1

u/Po_Biotic Jan 29 '20

Response 3, Part 2

Countering Your Win Conditions

Bindings

If Flashbang's sound and light projection doesn't touch their body, why would it be able to destroy bonds touching their body?

  • Because's it is projected outward from their body? It doesn't just show up a few inches from the top of their skin. It starts at the edge of their body

Clownmuffle's chains

  • No rebuttal, but compared to a tier setter with low lifting, this feat seems very much OOT to me.

Vanishing

This creates a binary. Either Flashbang is affected by their own powers

  • Excepted I already showed why they aren't affected, even without WoG.

Lastly, I will be moving Clownmuffle's deflection of Rover's attacks here. My opponent asked me to prove Clownmuffle could deflect Rover's shots, which is a ridiculous question, as the feat is described as if the people attacking fired blanks. Further evidence that it isn't a literal deflection and rather a magical one is that she describes bullets and arrows being fired at her, but only actually using her baton to deflect the attacks once. Bullets and arrows would reach her at different times. This is compounded if you consider that the et cetera is a bunch of magical attacks from other magical girls, and likely couldn't even be conventionally deflected.

  • Claiming her deflection happens regardless of strength. Cool. More unprovable claims.

  • But if your claim is true, and I'd concede the point if it leads to Clownmuffle being ruled OOT.

Countering Rebuttals

Clownmuffle healing and teleporting.

  • My interpretation was the objects entirely hindered her. I will leave it up to judges to make the decision.

  • However, since you are presenting both of these as being able to be done even when seen, I would be willing to concede this point for the purpose of an OOT as it contributes to the overall nature of why Clownmuffle is out of tier.

Even if my opponent's interpretation is correct, it would imply Clownmuffle being kinda obscured by glass is enough to teleport, which would be an easy as fuck condition to meet.

  • Mirrors reflect light.

The argument that Rover would target a person's head is pretty easily countered by him missing the head. Its even more unlikely for him to hit a small gem in somebody's hat.

  • This was covered. Alien dodged. Not a miss.

I don't really understand my oponment's contentions against Graf Eisen scaling. I established how strong Nanoha's shields are pre upgrade, established that Graf Eisen can break them, then established that it can no longer break them after the upgrades. This seems like pretty clear and succinct scaling, and I dont know why I would need to establish the strength of Graf Eisen for it to work.

  • This is the third time I've said this. Piercing.

  • There are no scalable piercing feats to show that her shield could withstand the condensed energy of the slug. Especially when it's been shown other magical girl shields can be pierced.

  • Your argument the piercing doesn't matter via X>Y=Z scaling is so broad that leaves an enormous range of possible for what the shield can or can't block.

  • What are you effectively saying is "She stopped an attack that looks big, so it stops a rifle with an explicit energy amount" with no proof or calculation what so ever.

  • If you are claiming she could stop a 1 TJ attack, where's the proof that 3 times that energy would go through? Or are you claiming Nanoha's shields are forever immune to DuraBelle?

  • But again, I'd concede this claim for the purpose of the OOT request if needed.

Conclusion

Lots of made-up claims without any back up, especially on shields. A lot of useless or absurdly OOT scaling arguments. Still no counter to the Rover shooting them or Flashbang's blinding.

2

u/GuyOfEvil ​ Jan 29 '20

OOT Responses

Nanoha

My oponment’s argument relies on the argument that since I argued Nanoha can restrain Haru, and Haru can do this. First I’d point out that this feat is nowhere near 1000 ton lifting strength, and second that I didn’t even argue that this wouldn’t be enough to break it, just that its harder to do the binds than this, and also that this strength feat is seemingly reliant on some friendship boost anyways.

Using the Book of Darkness is nonsense too. First of all somebody breaking it doesn’t establish any kind of limit on the binds themselves, just that somebody x strong can break them. She pretty obviously does not struggle to break the binds. And the strength feat my opponent uses for her doesn’t even make sense, she’s not pushing back here in any way, Nanoha is moving forward the entire time, shes literally just holding up a shield. The bindings matter to an opponent with no strength feats and one relevant strength feat predicated on a friendship boost, not against anyone with in tier strength.

As for flying, my opponent pointing out all my gifs of her are flying is literally meaningless, she fights something that does not fly like twice ever. If she flies super far out of Durabelle’s range and just starts firing, Durabelle has a massive amount of time to react to literally any of her blasts, which are not all that fast in the first place. If Nanoha wants to actually hit with an attack, she needs to be in melee range, where the fight is fairly even. Even Starlight Breaker is likely dodgable from a range like this.

My opponent argues that since Nanoha can block Rover’s guns attack she can also block an attack 3x stronger than Rover’s guns. His argument is pretty nonsense, although its kind of my fault, as I expected the argument to take a different shape. My opponent pointed out Graf Eisen as a piercing attack used against Nanoha’s shield, I expanded on this, stating “Graf Eisen is x strong scaling off Nanoha’s shield, heres the scaling” What I expected to happen was for my opponent to say “ok this is more/less than Rover’s guns” instead my opponent just conceded the point and used it to launch an OOT. In this way, the only thing actually proven about the shields is that they can block 1TJ attacks, There is no actual reason to believe the shields are 3x stronger than that, either by feats or by my argumentation. Even if this was the case, Nanoha can’t shield while attacking from melee, so her shields aren’t an absolute defense.

So all in all, Nanoha has bindings which are literally useless against Durabelle, the ability to stay at range and never hit Durabelle, and shields my opponent somehow got to 3x stronger than I ever claimed them to be. This character is not out of tier

Clownmuffle

Clownmuffle has Strength good enough to damage Durabelle, as well as a few esoteric options such as disappearing or phasing. Her durability is etting severely wounded by being hit indirectly from a strike close to tier, but this is offset by regen. She also has a point on her hat that, if hit by an in tier attack, would instantly kill her. For Clownmuffle to win she needs to either do enough continuous damage in melee (hard, Durabelle regens every 200 ms), dissapear her (also difficult, since it takes time and oponments have just prevented themselves from being unseen by breaking the stuff she uses to obscure them before, or phasing (which is useless, Metaverse chars have resistance to phasing). For Durabelle to win, she just has to hit Clownmuffle hard upside the head. Even if this didn't break her Soul Gem, it would knock her out, which, just in case, is something that can happen to Clownmuffle.

And to address some miscellaneous points my opponent made. The deflecting obviously only applies to ranged attacks, she couldn’t deflect literally any attack back at the attacker it wouldn’t even make any sense based on the blanks and snipers explanation of the feat, and she literally never does anything like deflecting melee attacks despite being in melee fights several times.

As for the chains Cicero eventually breaks them, its also perfectly possible for somebody to just react to them and dodge, nobody in Chicago provably has 8ms reaction times.

Mao Pam

I’ll be honest I have no idea if the cold is oot or not, I just assumed it wasnt because metaverse esoterics lol. Even if the cold is oot tho, its only a 50 meter diameter, and it doesn’t happen all at once. Durabelle can just leave before it kills her.

Even if it could kill Durabelle, its literally the only attack Mao Pam has that would do anything to Durabelle.

Hadraniel isn’t out of tier because, even if it does have above tier durability, its a single defensive ability that takes the form of a single, straight wall. Durabelle does not need to get through it to hit Mao Pam, and Mao Pam cannot take a hit. She also uses her weaker shields fairly often, and would have no idea Durabelle can break through all of her shields except Hadraniel, she would also lack time to set up Hadraniel, as Durabelle could close the distance in almost half a second.

As for Mao Pam flying away, Mao Pam has never demonstrated the ability to use her named attacks, or do anything complex, while super far away from her wings. If she could do that, she would’ve had no reason to end the fight with Sonia Bean in front of her, when she could’ve just fucked off a million miles away and used all her attacks.

Destroying the ground under non flying opponents literally does not matter they can just leave the area thats being drilled and it would take most of Mao Pam’s wings, leaving her wide open to literally anything.

Mao Pam has one super unreliable method of damaging Durabelle, One fairly unreliable method of blocking her attacks, and needs to remain in range to use it. She’s not OOT.

2

u/GuyOfEvil ​ Jan 29 '20

Third Response

My oponment has put most of his eggs into the OOT basket, so there's a ton of ceded ground, as such, I will be restructuring for this third response, in order to highlight the on the board win conditions.

My Oponment's Win Conditions

My opponent has one standing win condition, that being Rover shooting my team. Flashbang blinding my team serves as a secondary win condition, but this doesn't actually damage my team, he's still reliant on Rover shooting. I'll start by explaining the flaws in both of them.

Rover Shooting

Both of my primary counters to this still stand. Rover's in character actions, and Rover's accuracy.

Rover In-Character

My opponent has two new standing counters to this, that Rover's arsenal requires lethality, and that Rover is affiliated with groups hostile to superhumans. Neither really hold any water.

The first isn't really saying anything. Rover's best option is a gun in the same way a soldier's best option is a gun. You couldn't use that to say if a soldier was facing down a child in random combat that they would shoot the child.

This compounds with my completely uncountered positive evidence. Rover explicitly tries not to harm civilians, it is literally the only thing we know about him morally. He's so concerned about civilian involvement its literally the first thing of substance he says in the only fight he's ever been in.

The second argument is nonsense. My opponent says that Rover is affiliated with a group that is a subsection of a group that acted kinda pushy with some superheroes after literally all of the nukes in the world turned off. Being pushy about this seems perfectly reasonable, all the nukes on the planet just stopped working, and even then they literally just ask people in for questioning as far as I can see. This seems like the exact opposite of unjustified hostility against superhumans.

And even if there's some vital piece of evidence in this thread you mean that I missed, we've literally seen Rover interact with a superhero and he's perfectly amicable.

His last point is that by the time Rover gets to melee he'll have already seen my teams powers, which isn't really true. He's the only member of his team that wouldn't be at least slowed by Nanoha's bindings (notably a nonlethal option, would not cause him to escalate) which would mean he'd likely engage in melee with Clownmuffle, my only grounded melee combatant. By the time he realized Clownmuffle had the means to kill him, he'd already be dead either by vanishing or phasing.

So, stack up the arguments on either side. I've demonstrated Rover cares about limiting civilian involvement, which would imply that he cares about the lives of civilians. My oponment's argument boils down to "well when you have a hammer everyone starts to look like a nail." Weigh this either way and my argument is massively stronger. Rover would not instantly attempt to kill my team.

Accuracy

My opponent brings up two new accuracy feats, as well as arguing that the alien dodged Rover's attack. I'll respond to both.

The new accuracy feats are "Using several drones, accounted for wind and gravity to make a shot 200 miles away." This is useless to hitting a human because it presumably refers to a stationary target. Similarly, "Rover's drone picked up a mach 800 missile headed for a ship. Using the information relayed to him by the drone, Rover managed to intercept and destroy it from several miles away." is useless for hitting a human because this is a thing moving uniformly. Both feats are just a function of plugging the right numbers into his computer brain and firing, and say nothing about his ability to shoot a human target, which moves in an erratic manner. In fact, If my opponent's argument about the alien dodging the attack is true, he's awful at predicting the moves of sentient moving targets.

But he isn't right about the alien dodging. Looking at the description of combat, its pretty obvious the alien moves to shoot Valentia. The way the alien moves wouldn't even be effective against Rover's shot. Rover shoots at its head, and it turns its body and not its head to shoot at Valentia. The shot then lands on the aliens armor, well below the target of his head.

So Rover has good feats of shooting stationary or predictable objects, but is provably awful at hitting human targets that can move. Considering my team is made up of three human targets that can move, Rover shooting them is a 100% unreliable win condition.

Flashbang

I think my opponent has shown enough for the Flashbang hurting themself point. In case you haven't noticed I haven't exactly been shy about the fact that I don't understand Flashbang very well, and at this point in the debate I'm comfortable just dropping the point.

However, this doesn't make Flashbang any better. My opponent did not respond to the argument that Flashbang's sound, by the feats he presented, cannot harm my team. Therefore Flashbang's sound cannot harm my team. My opponent conceded that my team's heat resistance is enough to remain undamaged by Flashbang's light. Therefore, Flashbang literally cannot harm any member of my team.

This leaves Flashbang a single thing to do, blinding my team. Which doesn't actually stop any member of my team. Clownmuffle can regenerate her eyes, Mao Pam can see through her wings instead of her eyes, and Nanoha can juggle a can in the air 100 times with her eyes closed. No member of my team would actually be slowed down by being blinded.

So Flashbang does literally nothing to my team, they don't hurt my team, and they don't blind my team. Flashbang being complete dead weight makes this an easily winnable 2v3.

And as a formality, my opponent never responded to my argument that Flashbang cares about collateral damage, and his only proof that Flashbang would want to win is that they "know that they must win". This just slightly changes the question. Flashbang knows that they must win, why would they care about that knowledge.

Summary

My opponent's only offensive arguments literally no longer exist. I've proven Rover trying to shoot my team is both ineffective and out of character, thus decimating his literal only win condition. I have likewise proven Flashbang blinding my team to not matter at all. My opponent has zero offensive arguments left in the tank. Meanwhile

My Win Conditions

1v3

This is a new win condition, but very worth pointing out. As proven in the last section, Flashbang does literally nothing to my team. Flashbang's presence in this fight is 0, my team could ignore them literally the entire time and the outcome of the fight would not change. Further, my opponent never made a single argument about Haru's offenses, and never disproved the fact that he just dies to piercing, something my team has a large amount of access to.

So the literal only relevant member of his team is Rover, and my opponent has absolutely not done enough argumentation to prove Rover has the capacity to win a 1v3. If Rover enters melee, Clownmuffle can easily take him down, and my opponent has ceded that my team can block his attacks for the purposes of his OOTs. Rover has literally no hope of beating my team when all other members of his team are complete dead weight. My team easily 1v3s Rover

Nanoha's binds

Ceded, doesn't really matter anyways because they only ever effected the dead weight members of the opposing team

Vanishing

My opponent doesn't actually respond to vanishing as an argument, just pops into it to add fuel to the Clownmuffle OOT.

I will again point out the reflecting functions essentially like "the attack never happened, and Clownmuffle launches the same projectile back at the opponent" my oponment just cedes that it would work, but never explains why it would work on melee attacks, especially when I never argued it would work on melee attacks.

Haru dies

Uncountered, Haru is taken out mega easily by my teams piercing.

Conclusion

My opponent's literal only shot at victory is through Rover being able to kill my team with my gun. I have proven both that Rover would not do this in character, and that he isn't a good enough shot to do it anyways. With that, my opponent has no win condition.

Meanwhile, I have several win conditions still on the board that my opponent either offers no counter to or outright cedes. If I don't get eliminated, it should be exceedingly obvious who won this debate.

Hope those OOTs pan out bud.