The Great Debate Season 9 Finals!!!

[u/Verlux]

Rules

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Out of Tier Rules

• For Out of Tier requests, simply ping myself and/or Chainsaw__Monkey and state your case for why you believe someone's combatant is out of tier, then proceed with the debate as per normal. We will evaluate that request individual of the debate itself and make our decision in judgments.

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Battle Rules

• Speed - movement speed and combat speed will be set at Mach 1, reaction speeds to 8ms, and all projectiles will be relatively equalized. See hype post for details

• Battleground: The Great Debate arena has traveled across fiction, from a coliseum, to the Mines of Moria, to Asgard herself. Now, however, we bring the Great Debate to the most elaborate arena to be destroyed yet: Obliterate the Chinese City of Sai from the manga Kingdom. The City of Sai is a return to open-ended maps wherein combatants are offered a larger amount of freedom, and also a return to no extraneous restrictions upon combatants. The city is a 1 mile by 1 mile square, with the first inner wall being 2/3 of that size, and the second inner wall being 2/3 of the first wall's size.

  • Combatants spawn in the very center of the City in the barren area clearly visible on the map, 500 meters away from one another
  • The city is NOT occupied, yet all structures are intact, the walls are 5 meters high and 2 meters thick solid stone, every structure has numerous Chinese Warring States-era weapons in it, and the time of day is variable to each person to best suit whatever conditions are necessary for them to operate at maximum/stipulated efficiency; time paradoxes are ignored, as personalized bubbles of time supersede normal concepts of time in this arena due to my saying so. These have zero effect upon battle other than allowing those with time-specific conditions to compete per normal
  • In team battles, combatants spawn into the arena with weapons holstered and no abilities active as per usual, and are in a line left-to-right based on submission order, with 10 meters between each allied combatant

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Submission Rules

• Tier: Must be able to win an unlikely victory, draw/near draw, or likely victory against DuraBelle in the conditions outlined above; do note that the City of Sai will possess perfect weaponry for DuraBelle to pick up and optimize her damage output as such. All entrants will be bloodlusted against DuraBelle, meaning they will act fully rationally and put down their opponent in the quickest, most efficient manner possible regardless of morality, utilizing any and all possible techniques/tactics/attacks if necessary. The bloodlust does not give any foreknowledge of her or her capabilities.

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Debate Rules

• Rounds will last 4-5 days, hopefully from Monday until Thursday or Friday of each week of the tourney; there is a 48 hour time limit both on starting (we do not care who starts, you and your opponent can figure that out) AND on responses, AND ADDITIONALLY each user MUST get in two responses or else be disqualified. If one user waits until the very last minute to force this rule to DQ their opponent without any forewarning to their opponents or the tournament supervisors, they will be removed from this tournament, no exceptions.

• Format for each round: both respondents get Intro + 1st Response, then 2nd response, then a 3rd response and closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. EACH RESPONSE MUST BE NO LONGER THAN THREE REDDIT COMMENTS LONG WITH A HARD CAP OF 25,000 CHARACTERS SPLIT BETWEEN THE THREE.

• Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are determined by randomization. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa. First Round will be determined by coin flip.

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Brackets Soon

Determined by coin flip, the first round was a 3v3 Team Melee, so the final round shall be:

3v3 Team Melee

Round Ends Friday February 14th, 23:59 CST

• Format for each round: both respondents get Intro + 1st Response, then 2nd response, then a 3rd response and closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. EACH RESPONSE MUST BE NO LONGER THAN THREE REDDIT COMMENTS LONG WITH A HARD CAP OF 25,000 CHARACTERS SPLIT BETWEEN THE THREE.

• Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are randomized based on sign up order via an internet list randomizer. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa. First Round will be determined by coin flip, and as it is 3v3s, next shall be 1v1, and so on and so forth.

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Special Note: Keep in mind that the battlefield itself is littered with useful weaponry and buildings, so don't ignore that.

Links to:

Hype Post

Sign Ups

Tribunal

Round 1

Round 2

Round 3

Semifinals

[u/mikhailnikolaievitch]

Finals, Response 1 (1/2)

Overview

My opponent put all their eggs in a basket of esoteric offense and now faces a team completely immune to it. What's worse, Team Buster can easily OHKO every member of the opposition with both esoteric and conventional attacks that are an inevitability in the match.

Initiative

TB establishes an immediate advantage in the fight by both becoming invisible and protecting themselves with invisible forcefields. Not only can none of the ranged attacks proposed from the opposition connect and do any damage, they cannot locate TB to know where to aim them. The only member of the opposition even proposed to be able to see through the invisibility was Coco, and he just has vaguely-better-than-human eyesight whereas SuSkru's invisibility manipulates light itself. SuSkru's invisibility has only been surpassed by similar energy manipulation or by senses non-reliant on light.

What's more, elasticity allow SuSkru and Paragon to cross the distance between combatants at their leisure while making them all the harder to hit. They can traverse miles easily and weave through projectile or melee attacks. Both can attack with a giant body-sized fist from across the arena at any point in the match, and be invisible while doing it.

Between invisibility, forcefields, and elasticity the chances of the opposition landing a hit are slim whereas the chances of Team Buster landing their hits is almost a certitude.

Offense

DuraBelle

DuraBelle OHKOs any member of the competition regardless of if she has a perfect weapon. Her baseline 1 TJ striking strength is already orders of magnitude above anything the opposition has endured, and I want to emphasize here that that's her baseline. Her striking energy isn't a binary "1 TJ w/o a weapon, 3 TJ w/," it's just at minimum 1 TJ. Punching harder, kicking, or landing a roundhouse are all scenarios where DuraBelle could easily produce more than 1 TJ.

The idea that DuraBelle wouldn't get a weapon is similarly baseless. The battlefield is literally littered with them, DuraBelle can just snag one on her way to kick ass. Them shattering after her first hit is immaterial -- she OHKOs the competition even without a weapon, so hitting them with one redundantly kills them. My opponent tried arguing their characters would disarm her, but they have no reason to know they should do so, don't even do that in character, and city-destroying AoEs like my opponent proposed for Chi-Long is a kamikaze attack that incinerates his own team.

DuraBelle would have a weapon, but doesn't even need one when her weakest strikes are far more powerful than any of the opposition's durability. The opposing team commiting suicide before weapons are a factor is an interesting albeit ineffective strategy.

Super Skrull

Whereas DuraBelle and Paragon retain objective numbers-based forms of conventional damage that OHKOs in a single punch, SuSkru and Paragon enjoy a dump truck of esoteric win cons that bury the competition. To name a few;

• Heat/Energy
  • SuSkru's flames cam melt through the hull of an advanced star ship and reduce tons of aluminium and steel to a puddle,
    • Chi Long is only resistant to his own heat, not that of others, and his heat only ever destroys flammable materials like wood. Coco has one fire resist feat nowhere near the power of SuSkru's flames. Enel has no listed heat durability, and as in all regards relies on intangibility he does not presently possess.
  • SuSkru can redirect energy attacks like Enel's lightning or Chi Long's flame back at the opposition. He has a near infinite capacity so absorb heat and attacks like those my opponent proposed only reflect back to kill his own team.
    • Chi Long's own flames my not hurt him, but they kill his allies with no heat resistance. Enel's own lightning may not hurt him, but they kill his allies with no electricity resistance.
• Piercing
  • SuSkru can make concrete-piercing spears, with the constructs' invisibility making them impossible to dodge and which can be created fast enough to tag speedsters. He can also turn his arm into a rocky spear that impales the competition or slice them apart by stretching his arm razor thin, both of which he can do from the ~100 miles his elasticity allows him.
    • Enel has no resistance, and relies on intangibility he does not have presently. Coco has no ability to resist this, though my opponent may try to construct one with an erroneous analogy to another character. Chi Long is stabbed by giant swords with a far larger surface area than SuSkru's piercing attacks, which is exactly what it takes to devastate Chi Long. This last scan even mentions how he doesn't even try to evade attacks.
• Internal attacks
  • Other one-shot options involve SuSkru attacking his opponent's from the inside, crushing their brain with a forcefield or shoving his hand down their throats and inflating it to explode them from the inside out.
    • Coco has no ability to resist this, though my opponent may try to construct one with an erroneous analogy to another character. Enel explicitly relies on his organs functioning, without any evidence they're particularly strong Chi Long relies on human blood that isn't present in the match, and would easily lose whatever blood he has through piercing and internal attacks.

Paragon

Paragon himself spawns into the match with all of the above win cons of DuraBelle and SuSkru, meaning he OHKOs the competition as easily at range as melee and has numerous options throughout the fight. What makes his victory redundant, is that he also has the powers of the opposition itself. My opponent had only two arguments for why Paragon couldn't copy his team:

• For Chi Long my opponent clipped out this scan of Paragon being doubtful he could absorb inorganic powers, ignored this talk bubble in that same scan where Paragon starts to do exactly that, ignored the following page where Paragon continues to do it, and was probably being deliberately misleading in not mentioning the whole section of the RT that addresses what happens as Paragon successfully copies the Golem in the scan. Chi Long isn't even inorganic, as he explicitly has a lifeforce that needs sustained by blood. Even being analogously alive is enough for Paragon to copy him, so Paragon can do so.
• For Enel and Coco my opponent said they would never be in range, without evidence, and despite saying basically the opposite throughout the tournament. During Enel's Oot Defense, for instance, my opponent claimed that Enel would inevitably engage in CQC after his lightning proved ineffective against DuraBelle, who Paragon is also copying. Neither Enel nor Coco have any particular reason to know they need to avoid Paragon, and Paragon's huge variety of powers (like invisibility and elasticity) makes closing the range to them child's play.

Paragon can copy the entirety of the opposition, they have no idea why or how to avoid him, and he easily one-shots them with one another's powers. Chi Long has no experience against corrosives like Coco's poison, Coco has no experience against Chi Long's flame -- the possibilities are numerous and multiplicative. Literally getting anywhere around the opposition plummets any chance they have at success.

[u/mikhailnikolaievitch → u/mikhailnikolaievitch]

Response 1 (2/2)

Defense

Recap

Frankly, many of the defenses presented by Team Buster have already been established in the above or previously conceded by my opponent. Invisibility, forcefields, and elasticity are all massive barriers to any of the opposition's attacks landing. DuraBelle and Paragon are, by my opponent's own admission, largely invulnerable to any of the electricity, heat, or poison the opposition offers.

The poison was a sticking point, because my opponent is trying to argue that Coco's poison is vaguely effective over time. This point basically didn't mean anything. So after several huge oversimplifications (1000 J kills a person, body weight is more important to measuring toxicity than anything else, everything about the timeframe, etc) we're able to establish that Coco's poison does...something. To just DuraBelle, mind you. Paragon would copy Coco's own poison resistance on top of all of the opposition's resistances to their own attacks.

These are just the defensive options that sprout out of Team Buster's already multitudinous OHKO abilities. To find yet further defenses, we'll look at rebuttals.

Rebuttals

• Starting Position - My opponent detailed a strategy where his characters exclusively run away from DuraBelle at every opportunity and never engage in a melee. This is clearly not in character for Enel or Coco who engage in melee frequently, and even the strategy outlined by the opposition seemed to assume Chi Long would put himself into CQC.
  • Again, let's not forget DuraBelle does have her weapons. She only gets robbed of them if the opposition destroys themselves in a burst of suicidal flame and electricity.
  • The reference for how much damage 1 TJ does is magnitudes beyond what Chi Long put out, and even at 1 TJ DuraBelle is barely effected. The moment he engages in CQC she tears through any range advantage he had and destroys him. Either his war hammer is destroyed by levels of force its never faced before, or DuraBelle claims a handy new weapon therafter.
• Chi Long Slaps - Chi Long was cited as the only combatant who could possibly re-establish range from Paragon, and the problems in my opponent's strategy become apparent. Both Coco & Enel are ineffectual against DuraBelle and Paragon, but Chi Long is expected to melee both of them simultaneously?
  • Even 1v1, Paragon is likelier to hit Chi Long than vice versa. Paragon absorbs magnified versions of skills as well as powers, allowing him to outfight Black Canary multiple times with her own skill.
• SuSku & Electricity - SuSkru's electricity resist is too great for Enel to make a difference. My opponent made no effort to compare Thor's lightning to Enel's when citing the only feat where SuSkru is ever harmed by electricity, just saying Enel destroys stone platforms and leaving it at that. Thor's lightning can destroy half a mile of metal, several orders better than Enel's feat. If SuSkru can even survive such lightning, he could laugh off Enel's if it even touched him.
  • A trap comprised of just the current from a train track stuns SuSkru because he's not being hit by electricity. My opponent pulled the feat from this section in the RT that clarifies he was stunned because the magnetic field blocked the power ray he relied on at the time. My opponent then neglected the next 2 scans right next to that feat "before he rips through the construct" and "even those his powers are weakened." Here is how my opponent described the feat, just so we're clear at how blatant this attempt at deception was.
  • My opponent further ignored a scan a little lower in the RT which shows SuSkru powering through "countless volts of electricity." There's literally not a single electricity antifeat for Enel to build an offense off of -- SuSkru resistance is phenomenal.
• SuSkru & Evasion - For some reason my opponent completely brushed by the issue of invisibility, with no explanation for how Enel even hits an invisible target or why Coco's vaguely-better-than-human eyes could see SuSkru. Instead they focused on speed, despite that SuSkru's forcefields can easily activate fast enough to intercept lightning and either him or Paragon could protect the whole team in a cube capable of withstanding the destruction of a massive spacecraft. There wasn't even a reason given for why SuSkru would be the initial target -- once Paragon & DuraBelle endured such sudden attacks SuSkru would have good reason to keep his shields up if (for whatever reason) he didn't have them up in the first place.
• Team Fighting - All of this was wrong or rebutted. Nobody on my team even gets hit right away, and even if they were none of them would meaningfully be effected. DuraBelle & Paragon don't need weapons to OHKO the competition with 1+TJ, and even if they did weapons are immensely easy to come by and unlikely to be targeted by a team that's never done what my opponent describes. Chi Long can't take DuraBelle or Paragon in a fight separately, but my opponent describes him taking on them both simultaneously which is ludicrous.
• Chi Long's physicals are a joke - This isn't technically a rebuttal, because my opponent didn't technically say why anything Chi Long does is even impressive by DuraBelle's standards. The linked argument supposedly evidences why Chi Long's durability is several times greater than his own striking, but Chi Long's striking wasn't actually evidenced. His whole strength section seems to put him around breaking through a couple buildings? It's at best a fraction of the multiple city blocks of destruction caused by DuraBelle's baseline 1 TJ strike if they're even comparable at all.

Summary

Don't let my opponent's overconfidence or flagrantly deceptive tactics fool you. His team is completely reliant on esoteric forms of damage that are either meaningless because they don't work or meaningless because they don't hit. At any point in the fight Team Buster OHKOs the entire opposition with a variety of simple tactics requiring neither contrivance nor deceit to be self-evidently effective.

/u/kirbin24

[u/[deleted] → u/mikhailnikolaievitch]

Response 2

Skrull

None of my arguments with Skrull really changed at all:

Invisibility

Your scan if anything proves that Coco is capable of seeing Skrull through his invisibility:

• The scan claims that his power works via manipulating light, light being a term which specifically refers to the visible portion of the electromagnetic spectrum
  • Coco can see Infrared and Ultraviolet, which are not a part of the spectrum which would be considered light

Shields

The shields don't really matter, if he's using them he is incapable of attacking my team, if he stops using them attacks he cannot react to will just kill him.

Elasticity

I don't see how this makes any real difference, none of the evidence presented really makes any difference to my team:

• Weaving between projectiles is irrelevant if the projectiles are either too fast or cover too wide of an area
  • Enel's lightning is too fast
  • Coco's Mold Spear is too fast
  • Coco's standard projectiles wouldn't be avoided by that

Stretching a mile wide doesn't really accomplish anything either aside from making him easier to hit, on top of the fact that he wouldn't be able to hit my team regardless. Additionally trying to melee attack and especially trying to stab Coco is stupid, Coco's body is laden with poison, if Skrull stabbed him he would one shot himself.

Heat

Skrull's heat doesn't matter if he can't even hit my team with most of it, and Chi Long is just resistant to it, your arguments for the other aspects of it suck:

• Being capable of "absorbing heat" doesn't mean he can redirect Enel's lightning
  • He has never done this with lightning before, despite being hit by it
  • He can't even react to the lightning in the first place

Additionally, the claim that he can absorb "infinite heat" is obviously just flowery language

• The supposed "infinite heat" being released only destroyed like half of one space ship
  • Absorbing this amount literally left him dead or in an extended coma

Electricity

Your defenses for his electricity based feats are wack

• The Thor scaling obviously does not hold up, the feat you linked takes place in a comic that came out decades after and the idea that Thor used that level of energy on Skrull is backed by absolutely nothing.

This scaling is also used in a disingenuous way, you'll claim that Skrull scales to Thor's lightning in this comic because it won't affect your match up against the tier setter, yet within the same comic Thor's hammer throw is stated to be able to splinter the same mile wide piece of wreckage, something that would be absurdly out of tier, and in the same comic that Skrull is shocked, he gets hit by a hammer throw.

What if for any reason could you scale just Thor's Lightning between Thor 465 and Uncanny Avengers 8, yet entirely ignore the striking scaling that would come from the exact same comic aside from one not mattering against DuraBelle and one making you out of tier.

• "Countless volts" doesn't mean anything, he tripped and fell onto a random machine and the electricity paralyzed him, how is this comparable Enel

• Your defense for the train track anti-feat is wrong

  • Spidey says flying between the poles will be like "sticking his nose into a light socket. bang. zap." this clearly implies the attack is electric in nature
  • In the next comic it shows that the electrical grid above them is interfering with his abilities but for several reasons this is still an anti-feat
    • Spidey says his strength is only halved
    • Later on in the same issue even with the beam blocked, he is stated to still retain "most of his powers"

Skrull's powers in general seem to be weak to electricity:

• As shown previous despite his powers being mostly permanent after being shocked his flames can't even reach a few meters
• After being shocked by Thor despite previously being stretched out, he's completely normal
  • Also important to note that Skrull's reaction to an electricity based attack obviously being prepared to strike him is to just stare and get hit by it.
• The real Thing's powers completely deactivated when a natural bolt of lightning struck him

Considering that the very few times Skrull has interacted with electricity have interacted with his powers in a negative way, and the very basis of his powers in general were deactivated entirely by a single bolt of natural lightning, it seems like getting hit by Enel's lightning would likely disrupt his powers.

Durabelle

My opponent makes several outright false claims in his response

DuraBelle's unarmed striking is not as good as it looks:

• The nuke map you seems impressive at first glance but clearly isn't dwarfing Chi Long's output with Giant Dragon's Head

  • The vast majority of the circle is "light damage" that would break glass
  • Only this tiny portion in the center is a crater, and it's only 10 meters deep
  • Chi Long's hammer swings are causing more damage, and considering the size of the some of the rock chunks visible in the aftermath it seems clear that Durabelle can't fight Chi Long without having a weapon.
  • This site is calculating based on a nuclear weapon, not a punch
  • The site itself says results for blasts lower than 1 Kiloton aren't as trustworthy

• ""1 TJ w/o a weapon, 3 TJ w/," it's just at minimum 1 TJ. Punching harder, kicking, or landing a roundhouse are all scenarios where DuraBelle could easily produce more than 1 TJ."

  • Stat pages on Metaverse are representative of their peak output not their lowest output, it is outright stated on the character creation page that 3 Terajoules is a cap which should "not be exceeded except under the most extreme of circumstances", yet giving a character 3 TJ striking is allowed, if they could exceed it just by trying slightly harder that wouldn't make any sense.

• "Disarming her" isn't something that needs to be done with in-character behavior, any of my characters attacking would disarm her by default.

  • Enel's blasts have enough energy to just destroy the weapons in their hands
  • Coco's poison is acidic enough to do the same

Paragon

Still isn't copying any of my team:

• In what way does "consume blood to keep yourself alive" default to them being organic, they are literally made out of crystal
  • Gods are revived by placing their "mystical transcendent vigor" into crystals, the fact that they drink blood to sustain themselves has 0 to do with being "organic"
  • We see one be created, he is literally just crystal

Your point for the Galactic Golem still doesn't help, even if he was capable of copying unlike it is with "organic beings" it did not happen automatically:

• In order to copy it's powers he had to be in direct contact with it for an extended period of time

If you want to argue that he tries to touch Chi Long barehanded for an extended period of time I'm fine with that, and even then:

• Paragon's physicals obviously don't stack
  • 3 Daxamites even while wounded easily beat him to near death in moments despite him also being in range of Superman
• Paragon can't replicate items with his power
  • Chi Long with his hammer one shots something he was only doing marginal damage to barehanded

Close Combat

You claimed that Coco and Enel "engage in melee frequently" and then linked 2 examples with extenuating circumstance and no real evidence beyond those

• In this scan where Coco enters melee range, he was fighting against a robot, who obviously poison does not work against
  • In literally no other case in any other fight during the time period in which I am running him has Coco ever tried to hit an opponent with melee attacks
    • Devil Python, resistant to poison, no melee attacks
    • GT Robo, immune to poison, one melee attack
    • Invite Death, highly resistant to poison, no melee attacks
    • Grinpatch, extremely resistant to poison, no melee attacks

The idea that Coco "frequently engaged in melee" is a lie, Coco has attacked one enemy in melee one time as of the point I am running him. Coco will never willingly engage an enemy in melee, he has literally 0 reason to ever do so.

• Enel engaged Luffy in melee specifically due to him being immune to his normal electricity based attacks

However he only did this after using his lighting blasts several times against Luffy, there are still parts of your team that are vulnerable to lightning, on top of him being fully aware of the fact that he is tangible increasing his caution.

• The first time several times Enel does anything, it's attacking from a massive distance
  • Attacking another island
  • Attacking the very edge of his island

Enel isn't going to instantly rush into your team, and given that these fights can be decided in single blows, it's unlikely Paragon will ever have the opportunity to copy any member of my team.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Response 2 Part 2

Many of my conditions did not change, a bulk of the arguments presented my opponent don't really hold any water when actually examined.

Hitting My Team

My opponent speaks as if though all of his attacks from half a kilometer away would easily just hit my team without any opposition but:

• Enel is capable of moving at extremely high speeds, upon hearing his name he travels several miles faster than people can even react
  • Considering his standard movement speed this is quite a boost
• Enel is outright capable of reading an opponent's future movements using his Mantra

Trying to tag a character with precognition and a massive speed boost with attacks from 500 meters away is useless, along with the fact that of the two characters you have with ranged components if Skrull were to attempt this, it would inevitably lead to him being killed and Paragon losing this ability.

• Coco too is capable of predicting the future with a 97% accuracy

• Coco's visual acuity also easily allows him to avoid projectiles

• Coco can also create duplicate versions of himself and others to fool his opponents, as well as allowing him to fly using a duplicated version of his giant bird.

As stated earlier, Super Skrull attempting to stab Coco is an instant loss, if he stabbed Coco's Poison Doll it's an instant loss with no benefit whatsoever.

Coco

Poison

Even disregarding any math from earlier the fact that Coco defeated Invite Death using poison means that even someone of DuraBelle's resistance could be effective even if only somewhat:

• Invite Death weighs millions of times what DuraBelle weighs

• On top of being extremely resistant to poison itself, having more anti-bodies than anything else in the world

• And Coco's more powerful poisons were still capable of rapidly wearing it down

Even if Coco can only slightly affect the more resistant members of your team it would still eventually begin to wear on them and slow them down, additionally getting poison on Paragon means that if he is ever out the range of DuraBelle's ability he dies.

Fortune Telling

Coco can direct members of his team to take better actions, his fortune telling leads him to make advantageous decisions several times:

• Coco giving instructions to his companions based on what his Fortune Telling directed saved both their lives

• Coco can predict ridiculous outcomes

• Coco can tell if someone is bound to die

With these combined even if he is unaware of what the actual abilities of his opponents are he is still capable of discerning the best moves to make, it would be easy to figure out that approaching the enemy team for any reason is a negative for him and Enel and he can easily relay that info.

Chi Long

Every single point you made to disparage Chi Long is just wrong

Durability

Your team cannot hurt Chi Long without weapons:

• Chi Long takes 3 shots comparable to his own strength while his defenses are weakened
  • One swing of Chi Long's hammer eradicates more than a city block

Both of these were already linked in my previous response, you probably just missed it

Super Skrull "piercing concrete" is entire irrelevant to Chi Long, having a small surface area also doesn't mean he can automatically cut Chi Long

• You just linked "him being cut" but without any scaling towards who is actually cutting him, Zi Yu's sword was capable of piercing through Tian, the strongest character in the entire series
  • Just NiTian swinging his sword produced a shock wave that could cut apart an entire cliff side, yet hundreds of his blades couldn't even scratch Tian.

Additionally Chi Long has entirely ignored fire based attacks stronger than Skrull's:

• He simply shrugs off Zi Yu's Heaven Punisher, casually erasing the flames
  • The flames from Zi Yu's Heaven Punisher were capable of eradicating a pocket dimension and creating a large explosion

Chi Long Still Slaps

Chi Long's striking is clearly better than Durabelle without a weapon, nothing prevents him from one shotting Paragon by simply launching him away:

• Chi Long's unarmed strikes can shove a portion of a crystal mountain into the ground by hitting someone on top of the mountain
  • The crystal structure is larger than this big mech, which itself is massive
• Chi Long's hammer swings can shatter a city block, and one shot Ah Gou's projection
  • Ah Gou's projection was hardly affected by Chi Long's unarmed blows

Launching things out of range isn't foreign to Feng Shen Ji either:

• A far weaker Ah Gou was punting the heads of Gods past the horizon
  • A single casual blow from Chi Long crumples a stronger Ah Gou's Dark Cannon and shatters his spine

Fire of Nine Heavens

Is still Chi Long's only ranged option, he has no real reason not to use it if your team all runs off in search of ideal weapons rather than approaching him

• Using it will destroy all weapons in the arena via incineration, even weapons held by them would be destroyed, not only does this reduce Durabelle and by extension Paragon's strength to 1/3rd of what it would otherwise be, but greatly reduces their combat effectiveness in general as a result of them being barehanded and having severely shorter reach.

For the same reasons that your team can't hit Coco and Enel, Fire of Nine Heavens would fail to hit them as well, both could simply avoid the attack.

Slaps

Fire of Nine Heavens punishes your team if they run away to search for weapons, and Chi Long's multiple physical advantages will punish them if they approach him without a weapon, your team has no recourse to Chi Long's attacks.

/u/mikhailnikolaievitch

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Response 2 Part 3

General Initiative Advantages

Anything my team is capable of doing they are capable of simply doing from the start which presents a large advantage over my opponent's team which in attack either leave themselves vulnerable, or are incapable of really doing so without some amount of time passed in the first place.

With the scans I've shown previously these points all hold strong

Durabelle

First consider the difference between Durabelle's unarmed striking and Chi Long swinging with his hammer:

• One according to my opponent only creates a 10 meter deep crater of this radius
• The other caused this level of destruction

Durabelle cannot match up Chi Long without a weapon, and getting a weapon is hard, keeping a weapon is harder:

• If Durabelle finds a weapon, getting hit by anyone automatically results in her losing said weapon
• If Durabelle finds a weapon, swinging it automatically results in her losing said weapon
• My team is capable of ridding the arena of any weapons
• Even with a variety of weapons littered around, that does not mean she would simply pick up the nearest one and charge my characters, it was stated that she would rather find a tree and rip it out of the ground over picking up a 10 foot long spear.

On top of the fact that without a particularly large weapon Durabelle is at a massive disadvantage in terms of reach from the outset if she attempts to engage Chi Long.

Super Skrull

Super Skrull has the disadvantage in the fact that doing anything leaves him vulnerable to attacks, while your arguments have been made that he has several methods of attacking, all of these leave him open to simply being killed by Enel or Coco the moment he drops his shield.

• Shooting fire? No shield
• Stretching his arms towards my team? No shield
• Trying to use shields offensively? He literally had to be touching the singular person he did this to and wasn't using a shield on himself.
• Putting his hand down their throat? Most things would be smart enough to not try, but with Skrull who knows.

Anything Skrull does invalidates his ability to use a shield, any time Skrull isn't using a shield he's vulnerable to dying in one hit, he's either being useless or dead.

• Skrull cannot shield on reaction, Enel's lightning is hundreds of times faster than himself
• Skrull cannot completely shield himself and effectively attack at the same time
• Skrull has no reason to shield at the outset of the match

On top of the fact that your arguments don't really present a way for Skrull to actually land any of his attacks, if he's stretching his a mile towards my team that will still take enough time to just kill him well before that happens.

• By your arguments Skrull would try to use invisibility to attack, when he is unaware of the fact that this is useless against 2/3rds of my team both of whom can one tap him with a projectile.
• My team is hundreds of meters away, one has precognition and a speed boost that makes him hundreds of times faster, the other one has super visual acuity and can predict the future.

Skrull can't tag my team, Skrull trying to tag my team gets him killed, Skrull has no reason not to try it.

Paragon

Read: Durabelle

Paragon can't copy my team, 1 being immune and the other 2 being out of his range, and he can't do anything to Chi Long unless he finds a weapon first, and getting hit removes his weapon.

This along with the self imposed argument that sufficiently powerful attacks could launch Paragon out of the range of DuraBelle's powers leading him to die on impact, any hit at this tier would be more than sufficiently powerful to do so, every feat I've linked for Chi Long is clearly more than enough to cause this.

The singular source of flight in the battle is Super Skrull, who is by far the most likely to die first given the myriad of reason I've presented.

Conclusion

No one on my opponent's team can match up to Chi Long while unarmed, searching for a weapon is the most likely way to make it impossible to find a weapon, doing so will outright doom his team.

In a team fight, 2/3 of my character are effectively untouchable and can take out one of member of your team with supreme ease, even if their attacks are not incredibly effective against the remainder, they are still capable of easily removing their weapons and slowing them down over time. This advantage alone is enough for Chi Long to overcome the remainder, if Durabelle dies Paragon becomes useless, if Paragon gets hit once he's liable to simply die as a result of being knocked out of range.

/u/mikhailnikolaievitch

[u/mikhailnikolaievitch → u/[deleted]]

Response 2 (1/3)

Overview

Team Buster establishes clear and decisive advantages from the outset of the match they maintain and multiply throughout, synergizing with eachother as they sweep through the competition. To obfuscate such obvious advantages, my opponent's description of the match makes several convenient assumptions, breaks apart the team to talk about them as individuals, and describes his own characters employing a contrived hit-and-retreat strategy they never use. TB's win cons remain simpler, more effective, and inevitable.

Super Skrull

First and foremost bear in mind that everything said for SuSkru can also be said for Paragon, and many of them can be said for DuraBelle as well. Invisibility and forcefields are advantages that apply to teammates regardless of power copying, but with his mimicry Paragon utilizes both SuSkru's powers and DuraBelle's durability. All of the "but Skrull dies if he does that" counters are moot with regard to Paragon.

Invisibility

The only opponent even proposed to be able to see TB is Coco. Enel and Chi Long cannot land attacks on opponents they cannot see. They are both freely attacked by opponents they cannot anticipate. Reliance on Coco to tell them who they're fighting is not only ineffective, but an active hindrance throughout the fight.

Even besides, Coco can also not see TB. The word "light" does not apply exclusively to "visible light," it applies to ultraviolet light and infrared light as well. Even so, Coco's vision explicitly can't see the entire spectrum of infrared/UV light and is merely better than a human's. If that isn't enough, more explicit descriptions of the invisibility power specify that it controls infrared and ultraviolet forms of light as well. There's no evidence to suggest Coco can see who he's fighting.

Shields/Multitasking

My opponent invented the idea that SuSkru cannot multitask with his shields somehow, hinging a huge part of his argument on a baseless claim.

• Here SuSkru uses his forcefields simultaneously with his other powers
• Here he destroys a spaceship with his fire while using all his other powers, including his forcefield.
• Here he does exactly what my opponent said he wouldn't, attacking with fire while shielding.
• Here he creates a hole in his forcefield specifically for his fire.
• He can even project an invisible forcefield on a target while shooting flames at them.

The fact that all my opponents' projectiles are useless when a forcefield prevents them from making contact is devastating to his case, so instead he's had to outright lie about why they couldn't be used, or else contrive a reason why SuSkru would deny himself obvious defensive advantages. And, again, TWO members of TB have this ability, allowing one to cover for the other at all times even if this wasn't an absurd made up limitation.

Elasticity

There are two main advantages of elasticity, with the first being the way it synergizes with invisibility in general. Enel's lightning, for instance, is not only firing blind, but firing blindly at a target with an endless array of unconventional shapes. Elasticity bears not on a question of speed, as my opponent wanted to make it, but on a question of accuracy as SuSkru/Paragon become extremely hard to hit.

The second advantage is how it synergizes with Paragon in particular, effectively increasing his range in all regards. My opponent seemed to think the advantages of reach were insurmountable when Chi Long's war hammer was paired against an unarmed DuraBelle, but Paragon is essentially a DuraBelle with a much longer reach who can retrieve weapons without needing to go on the scavenger hunt my opponent keeps describing.

Heat

We got a classic "it misses" defense out of this, as 2/3rds of the opposition have literally no way to defend against SuSkru/Paragon's most common and effective ranged attack. Bear in mind here that SuSkru can make his flames invisible as well, so the idea the opposition will dodge something they can't anticipate is downright silly.

That's just 2/3rds of the team that weren't proposed to have heat durability. Chi Long had one proposed, but it involved made up meaningless terms without comparison to SuSkru's steel-melting temperatures. These attacks remain effective at the height of the NYC skyline, putting their range even at a lowball around the starting distance. Regardless of distance, the heat remains a factor in the melees my opponent proposed as they combine with punches and grapples the opposition has 0 resistance to.

Energy Absorption/Redirection

My opponent's only counter to SuSkru absorbing energy in this feat massively above anything his team outputs was to call the language "flowery" and to question the size of the "spaceship" destroyed in the explosion.

• SuSkru absorbing "near infinite heat" is said twice in two separate issues, & the amount of energy SuSkru absorbed is compared to a sun twice in two separate issues. There is no language or frame of reference to say the heat is anything less than monumental.
• The "spaceship" destroyed in the explosion SuSkru absorbs is the Harvester of Sorrows,a Death Star-like space station that destroys planets and is ludicrously larger than anything the opposition has destroyed.

There is 0 reason to believe the energy SuSkru absorbs and redirects is anything but vastly beyond what Enel/Chi Long's attacks put out.

Electricity

A fat note here about the assumptions my opponent is making to describe this attack. He's saying SuSkru wouldn't be able to absorb lightning because he couldn't anticipate the attack, which would also require him to not have a forcefield up and not be invisible and to ignore any other lightning attacks Enel threw before targeting SuSkru himself. Why would this attack ever land, and why would SuSkru be totally unprepared for it if it did??

Regardless, electricity is completely ineffective against SuSkru.

• Thor's electricity constitutes 1/3rd of any interaction with electricity SuSkru has ever had, whereas he's taken countless different concussive hits with huge variances in power. It's far easier to call the hit he took an outlier (which is why I never brought it up) than the electrocution -- we don't just dismiss the entirety of an issue at our convenience.
  • Regardless, it was my opponent who brought up Thor scaling at all, trying to cite it as a limitation for SuSkru's electrical resistance without ever citing its strength. I did not propose it as a feat, it was my opponent who proposed it as an antifeat without any evidence. This is the weirdest oblique OoT claim I've ever seen -- if we want to dismiss SuSkru surviving Thor's lightning as an outlier then 100% of the time SuSkru was attacked by electricity (itself a higher voltage than Enel has ever produced) it didn't work.
• Since my opponent seems incapable of describing feats accurately, here is the feat where SuSkru decidedly did not "trip and fall" as my opponent claimed.
• Power cancellation is the dumbest argument presented in this debate. Originally SuSkru's powers were fueled by a giant beam sent from space. If the beam was blocked by an electromagnetic circuit it WOULD rob him of part of his powers BACK THEN, but even the following issue brought up his growing independence from the beam (my opponent used all those scans while ignoring the parts I highlighted). In the modern day the beam is never mentioned, and has likely been destroyed along with the entirety of his homeworld. SuSkru absorbed enough of the beams energy over the years he no longer needs it/uses it.
• The electricity weakness is similarly contrived, as obviously SuSkru's powers work fine after being electrocuted. Since my opponent wants to bring in Thing scaling, here's 6 different times Thing gets electrocuted (once by 100,000 megavolts) and he shrugs all of them off, notably without losing his powers.

Summary

SuSkru's copious offensive and defensive options (replicated in Paragon) were worth particular attention in this match, both because of their integral role in the fight at hand and because my opponent's blatantly deceptive tactics and hail mary arguments needed heavy contextualization. If nothing else, this section of the debate should readily demonstrate that very little of what my opponent says can be taken at face value, whereas I am extremely willing to speak candidly in view of a full context.

Super Skrull and Paragon cannot be seen by the competition, nor hit by the competition, nor avoided by the competition. They maintain several uncountered win cons while being completely immune to most every ranged offensive option my opponent presented.

[u/mikhailnikolaievitch → u/mikhailnikolaievitch]

Response 2 (2/3)

DuraBelle

Nuke Map

The tournament itself quantified DuraBelle's strikes using NukeMap, including specifically the map that so far outclasses Chi Long even at DuraBelle's bare minimum 1 TJ. This leaves my opponent between a rock and a hard place with two options:

A) Either the NukeMap evidences striking superior to Chi Long, in which case he's hilariously unprepared for this fight, or

B) The NukeMap is not a legitimate frame of reference, in which case Chi Long is being argued to be several times stronger and more durable than the tier setter while also being capable of depriving her of weapons she allegedly needs.

At one point my opponent even argued DuraBelle's strikes are better than NukeMap presents, as the TJs of her punches are more effective when concentrated in a fist than presented with the surface area inefficiency of an explosion. I don't think there's even a coherent argument being made here against DuraBelle's striking, and the effort to argue Chi Long's as superior without OoTing Chi Long is creating mental gymnastics that, while impressive, are hardly convincing.

Comparison to Chi Long

The feat used as reference for Chi Long is extremely lackluster for several reasons.

1. The scan mentions bringing "the fire of hell to the surface," indicating there is a component to the damage dealt completely separate from the KE.
2. It's still a fraction the total size of what the NukeMap presents, with the heavy damage centered around 4 modern city blocks that are obviously larger than the maaaybe 1 block Chi Long destroys.
3. The NukeMap is also accounting for destruction to modern building materials as DuraBelle inflicts "severe damage" to "heavily built concrete buildings." The structures in Chi Long's feat are ancient & wooden, and many of them even appear somewhat intact afterwards.

So DuraBelle more thoroughly destroys superior materials in a wider radius with pure KE than Chi Long can possibly replicate even when assisted by magical fire. There is no world in which he is superior here.

Weapons

Remember that all the comparisons above deal exclusively with the conceit that DuraBelle is attacking with her bare minimum amount of strength. I tried to stress the importance of this bare minimum energy output mandated by the wording in DuraBelle's RT, but my opponent misconstrued the point. I never argued for DuraBelle exceeding her 3 TJ limit, just that she must by necessity be able to surpass her 1 TJ baseline.

This strategy to disarm DuraBelle/Paragon is asinine anyways. They can imbue their powers on the objects they touch, and their powers include MetaVerse's proportional durability to lightning and acid. Even that aside, my opponent is proposing that his characters would specifically target weapons (even proactively before the fight starts despite not knowing TB's abilities) while also proposing my characters will outright refuse to fight until they find exactly the right specific weapon. There's been no evidence for any of this, and the evidence my opponent tries to cite makes it explicitly clear that she's willing to use what she has available.

Summary

So it recap: DuraBelle literally can't be weaker than Chi Long, even her bare minimum strength devastates him, weapons in her hand can't be destroyed, she likely won't be disarmed anyways, and my opponent will continue to use whatever tactics they can, however dishonest, to hide that. The elephant in the room he wants you to ignore, of course, is that neither Coco nor Enel were even proposed to have a semblance of resistance to the baseline attacks both DuraBelle and Paragon are capable of.

Paragon

Can copy the opposition

I literally linked evidence of Chi Long having a lifeforce, and established that if he's even analogously alive Paragon can copy him. My opponent ignored that and wants to focus on the crystal housing his lifeforce instead as if it at all counters the point. Wonder Woman was also made from lifeless materials and then had a life force imbued in her and Paragon copied her just fine.

My opponent's question, "In what way does "consume blood to keep yourself alive" default to them being organic, they are literally made out of crystal" basically answers itself. Even apart from the fact that Chi Long has a lifeforce (so he's alive) and Paragon has copied other beings made from earth, the mere fact that Chi Long has a metabolism requiring sustenance is a pretty friggin clear indicator of being organic.

Here's the scan my opponent cited to say Paragon NEEDED direct contact to copy the Golem and here is the panel my opponent ignored where Paragon says he can feel the Golem's powers before establishing contact and also says he's only establishing contact so he can turn himself into a bridge. Since it was left out, here's the part where Paragon establishes contact so Superman can pass into the Golem.

There's literally no reason Paragon couldn't copy Chi Long, and he certainly wouldn't require physical contact to do so. Once again, Chi Long was the only resistance proposed here -- Coco and Enel are presumed to be conveniently out of range, either allowing the invisible elastic Paragon to surprise them or leaving them as dessert after Paragon/DuraBelle devour Chi Long in a melee.

Hit out of range

My opponent's characterization of Paragon very weirdly assumes that he neither has SuSkru's powers nor that DuraBelle is actually anywhere around while he fights. Under the absurd circumstance that the fight plays out like my opponent describes (necessitating SuSkru suicidally ignoring all his options for defense) the fight still necessitates that Chi Long take on DuraBelle and Paragon simultaneously. I already argued for why Paragon's skill would allow him to land the first hit, but my opponent is willfully ignoring that Chi Long is in a 2v1 by necessity.

Chi Long trying to hit Paragon out of range leaves him open to DuraBelle OHKOing him. Since the other 2/3rds of my opponent's team rely entirely on running away from DuraBelle in the absence of any ability to hurt her, her victory thereafter will still be an inevitability.

[u/mikhailnikolaievitch → u/mikhailnikolaievitch]

Response 2 (3/3)

The Opposition

"Precog"

Whereas Chi Long apparently forfeits any attempts to attack him, willingly taking the multitude of win cons proposed against him, Enel and Coco were proposed to be entirely immune to ever being hit because of their precog. Let's look a bit closer at that.

Enel obviously doesn't evade every single blow ever thrown at him. He even gets pummeled by a follow up barrage, and all of this happens at a distance significantly less than SuSkru/Paragon can attack from. The evidence cited for his "precog" just says that he reads his opponent's moves, which has no reason to even work on invisible opponents he can't see in the first place. My opponent even said himself in Tribunals that Enel's Mantra is not limitless and he can be hit. Later in his OoT defense, he proposed that putting himself in range would be an inevitability against DuraBelle. This precog seems to make Enel some omni-dodgeable speed god when he's mid-round, but in Tribunals or OoTs suddenly he's a pussycat.

As for Coco, he notes himself that his precog isn't perfect and in the very same scan asks a question he presumably wouldn't need to ask if he was some omniscient overseer of fate. The only other feat cited didn't even seem to be precog, as it's just Coco dodging an attack. The explanation for Coco's precog is tied in with his visual acuity, which means it's similarly useless against invisible opponents I established above he cannot see. Of course, even if he COULD see them...

SuSkru & Paragon can produce an incandescent flash that would blind Enel & Coco. If their precog vision truly allows them to see SuSkru/Paragon at all times, then they can basically be blinded at all times, just frying their retinas even if SuSkru/Paragon aren't actively trying to blind them. Not only would their visual-based precog become useless, any capacity they would have to evade would become requisitely useless thereafter.

Poison

Coco's poison is useless. It's effect or time frame remain unestablished and the ludicrous assumptions propping up even the vague effect proposed have yet to be further justified. Even so, the Durability Steps dictating how DuraBelle & Paragon's durability works dictates that the poison could not just accumulate over an unlimited amount time. If the poison isn't strong enough to hurt them in the first place, it will just regenerate away in a matter of seconds.

Chi Long

If every single point I made against Chi Long was wrong, my opponent did not evidence it.

• He equated Chi Long's durability to his striking, which my opponent himself put at ~1 city block. This is demonstrably lower than DuraBelle & Paragon's lowest offenses.
• He misconstrued a point about surface area's relation to piercing to say SuSkru could not pierce Chi Long, ignoring that Paragon is several times stronger than Chi Long while also capable of the same attacks.
• He provided contextless scaling for heat durability

Not only was every point here wrong, it totally glossed over 2 straightforward win cons capitalizing on Chi Long having no electrical or internal durability feats. Even besides that, there's still the matter of Paragon mimicking Coco & Enel to wield their powers against Chi Long, something he has absolutely no resistance against either.

Fire of Nine Heavens is actively more harmful to my opponent's own team than mine, and seems to assume that Chi Long sits around waiting for his allies to get out of range before he uses it, leaving him amply open to a 3 TJ extended-reach OHKO at Paragon or DuraBelle's leisure.

Summary

There is no reason to take the majority of my opponent's claims at face value. At every stage of the debate he has selectively cherry-picked scans, willfully ignored information even present in those scans, and in some instances outright lied about what a scan conveyed. While he did cast aspersions on my own credibility (such aspersions themselves going unevidenced), I don't see how my opponent's behavior thus far is not ruinous to the truth-value the judges are willing to award his arguments.

The motivation for his deceptive tactics are clear: He can't win this fight. Coco & Enel are almost entirely useless, reduced to out-of-character descriptions of them constantly fleeing from battle while their attacks remain ineffectual. My opponent at least seems to think Chi Long is useful, but there has been no offense presented for him that comes anywhere close to a win con, and he's hilariously outmatched by the entirety of my team.

Team Buster inevitably OHKOs each of the competition while themselves being next to impossible to put down.

/u/kirbin24

[u/[deleted] → u/mikhailnikolaievitch]

Final Response Part 1

Enel

Hitting Him

Enel is still practically untouchable via his Mantra, the points my opponent has brought up counter this are clearly intrinsically flawed in an obvious way.

• Enel predictive ability has nothing to do with sight on the target, Mantra is even outright stated to be able to detect hidden enemies
• Mantra also does not require line of sight, a literal blind man uses it just fine
• Enel's power which he uses to observe his entire country is the same which is used to predict moves, it evidently has nothing to with his being able to see the attacks.

While my claims that Mantra is not an invincible defense are true, my opponents method of making them relevant to this debate are downright ridiculous.

• My claim that DuraBelle could eventually tag him was specifically in relation to him being in melee range
• Yet my opponent shows this scan to claim that I've argued him as practically untouchable, while ignoring the most obvious factor in this claim, that Enel is 500 meters away.

Even at our character's speed, this is more than a real time second away, this completely invalidates your points in every sense, obviously being further away makes someone hard to hit, obviously having precognition and a speed boost in combination with this massive distance makes Enel incredibly difficult to hit as opposed to while in melee range.

The feats you've presented for Enel's weakness are also contextualized:

• Here he is hit because Luffy randomly bounces the attacks off the wall meaning reading his movements didn't allow him to predict his attacks, the follow up hits are while he is still stunned and not really relevant to your point.

Your characters don't really have a way to replicate this, in addition to not even knowing this is an ability that Enel possesses in the first place.

Lightning

Ignoring all the context my opponent has tried to staple onto these feats for Skrull, just look at the very basis, the feats themselves and nothing else:

• Skrull gets knocked into a machine, and the electricity from it stuns him for an extended period of time

The fact of the feat is that the output from a single random machine stunned him, this machine has no real feats, it definitely has nothing comparing it's power output to Enel, and a singular incredibly vague phrase doesn't somehow make it more impressive than Enel's objective feats.

• Skrull gets stunned by the current flow from a train track

Whatever interaction electricity has with Skrull's power at this point does not change the fact that he flies into this trap, yells, and is stunned for some amount of time. The effect on his powers is not noted until the next chapter, unless it happened in a literal instant, then the current from a train track still clearly has a negative effect on him.

• Skrull gets knocked out by Thor

Your back up for this feat is that Skrull doesn't have many feats related to electricity, so you decide you can freely scale to whatever output Thor is capable of? That is ridiculous, considering his two other feats are mundane objects paralyzing him, and you are now stating this feat is equivalent to the vaporization of half a mile of metal, this feat doesn't have any real objectivity to it.

Overall every single time Skrull has interacted with electricity it has had clear negative effects on it, the singular actual measurable objective feat he has relating to this is "the current from a train track stunned him" the other two are impossible to claim any real value on, and certainly can't automatically be assumed to be superior to Enel.

Chi Long

All your points against Chi Long sucks

Slapping

Chi Long hits hard enough to reduce a city block to this with a single swing of his hammer, your attempts to compare to the nukemap are intrinsically faulty and don't work.

• Chi Long's attack is explicitly the force of his swing penetrating in the ground before blast back upwards

While it is true that nukemap effects a wider area, the effect Chi Long has on this area is clearly superior.

You are comparing the surface damage of a nuke to an attack which is mainly affecting the ground, the fact that buildings remain, the fact that it hasn't affected as wide an area, aren't really all that relevant.

• Yes the nuke does more damage to buildings in a wider area
• But Chi Long's strike is clearly doing far more damage when it comes to the solid ground beneath them

My opponent on determining the strength of a feat

Along with the fact that destroying several meters of solid ground is far superior to toppling or destabilizing buildings, as a reminder, only this singular area is a crater, with the smallest spot being a 10 meter depth, while Chi Long caused this level of damage to the ground beneath them.

The heat component of this feat doesn't even really matter, we can see the destruction caused by the hit and the resulting burst, even if a heat component exists the kinetic component is still readily apparent.

Heat

Chi Long has still taken his own heat and flames specifically designed to work against Gods and been relatively unharmed, your criticism of the feat could also be well applied to your own arguments.

• Zi Yu's Heaven Punisher was capable of burning away an entire pocket dimension, this dimension was large enough that he lived out entire lives in it, and was even described as an infinite universe
  • Chi Long upon getting hit by Heaven Punisher shrugged it off and dispelled the flames.

I don't see how this is any less of a feat than "absorbs infinite heat" or "takes countless volts".

Fire of Nine Heavens

This feat really still hasn't been countered, even if Skrull could absorb "infinite heat" the feats you've presented don't show an exactly impressive range on this ability, along with the fact that every time he's done this he's left himself defenseless and capable of then being one shot by my team.

Additionally I find it more likely than anything that Skrull dies at the outset of the match as I will describe in a further section, but for now I don't see how your characters deal with Fire of Nine Heavens removing any capability of finding weapons.

Vs DuraBelle

Your points for this match up I just don't really understand, several of them seem to be invented from nothing but it's clear that an unarmed DuraBelle loses to an armed Chi Long:

• NukeMap

I've addressed this point now, your method of comparing the feats is faulty, I'll discuss later on why your use of this site at all is silly, and it doesn't really affect my arguments.

• NukeMap pagain

You've somehow figured out that a punch is more efficient than a nuke, yet still continuously claim that Chi Long's feat is definitely worse because it's worse than in explosion in terms of area? If DuraBelle punched the ground, this would not happen, yet you think Chi Long hitting the ground and that not happening is somehow proof that he's much weaker than DuraBelle.

Coco

Fortune Telling

While my opponent addressed this point, they conveniently ignored the most important scans that I presented, and really the only ones that matter:

• Coco knew the outcome of a fight before it ended, Coco was capable of saving the lives of two of his friends via general instructions

• Coco knows if people will die soon

These two alone have the most relevance to the fight, disparaging the other scans don't really change the effect these have on the battle.

It shows that Coco has a general foreknowledge, which is supported by other minor events, and he can apply them to battles in order to assist his friends and team members even in situations he was not even personally present for. He doesn't need to have incredibly detailed prediction to figure out simple details such as "don't approach them".

Eyesight

• Sue says infrared can track her
• Sue gets tracked by infrared

ok

Poison

The singular argument my opponent presented to counter the efficacy of Coco's poison is just bizarre.

• I don't really understand what relevance Durability Steps has here

Durability Steps is a system where multiple blows in a short time frame act as singular blows for the purpose of overcoming their durability, I don't really get what point you are trying to make here.

If you are implying that all forms of damage must occur within this time frame to have an effect on DuraBelle then you are just wrong, even within the album you posted that is clearly disproven as it is stated that if two fighters are incapable of harming each other in the provided time frame, they still cause injuries that would eventually wear the opponent down.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Final Response Part 2

DuraBelle

Most of the arguments you've made for DuraBelle are just wrong, and some of the evidence you've used is inapplicable anyways.

You Are Not Running Tier Setter DuraBelle

I will not argue with what Verlux claims of the tier setter, but I also don't have to accept their statements on what DuraBelle is capable of when it comes to your character, their statements of their tier setter are concrete, their statements also don't have any bearing on what DuraBelle's "real" capabilities are.

• They can amp their weapons because of X

There is a section of DuraBelle's page listed "Powers" there is a line in this section that states DuraBelle may apply any of her Powers to her weapons, there is a description of every ability labeled under "Powers"

What you've claimed in the last response DuraBelle is capable of doing is not backed up by what her character page actually says, what evidence is there for her being able to apply anything else to weapons, the page makes it abundantly clear what she can do with weapons, none of that states she can give it her full physical capabilities, there is no mention of esoteric durability.

Durabelle's powers and plainly and clearly listed:

• DuraBelle can apply her powers to objects
• DuraBelle can increase the durability of an object by 150,000x
• DuraBelle can increase in size by 50%
• DuraBelle can triple in density

Nothing else is listed as a power.

This was stated of the tier setter, by Verlux. Verlux did not create DuraBelle, Verlux is not a mod of MetaVerse, Verlux has nothing to do with DuraBelle, Verlux's word has absolutely no impact on what your character is capable of doing, and again, this is not a "power" this is an aspect of her durability, there is 0 evidence that she can apply her own durability to her weapons.

• "The tournament itself quantified DuraBelle's strikes using NukeMap, including specifically the map that so far outclasses Chi Long"

What exactly does "the tournament" have to do with DuraBelle, the tier setter is not representative of what your character can do, that is what the judges stated she, as the tier setter, can do, their statements have 0 bearing on what you are arguing.

The site you are using does not have any bearing on your DuraBelle, DuraBelle is not a nuke, the site itself claims your results are not accurate.

You Have No Idea How Strong DuraBelle Is

As of now the singular arguments you have presented for DuraBelle's destructive capacity is based solely on methods of attacking totally inapplicable to DuraBelle.

• DuraBelle is not a nuke, the "feats" you've linked so far are inapplicable to what she can actually do
• "1-3 TJ Strike" Doesn't mean anything, you are incapable of actually quantifying what this would even do

Try and find a singular example of a "3 Terajoule strike" that isn't completely incompatible with the methods by which DuraBelle is doing damage.

You Have No Idea How DuraBelle Behaves

You've claimed a certain behavior for DuraBelle, but your actual backing of that doesn't exist, your claims are fabricated based on nothing, while the word of the literal only person who can make claims of her behavior are as presented:

• DuraBelle will pick up the largest available object
• Standard sized weapons are not ideal weapons
• DuraBelle prefers blunt weapons anyways
• DuraBelle would prefer to use a tree than pick up a spear, stated multiple times

Even if the battlefield is "littered" with weapons, that doesn't mean DuraBelle will simply pick up the first weapon she can find, she'll look for a better weapon.

Additionally DuraBelle is good in terms of alignments, DuraBelle has never killed anyone, DuraBelle is bad at fighting, DuraBelle won't use effective abilities on herself just out of preference, and both of DuraBelle's martial skill sets are based on being unarmed, and one is a grappling martial art, when she is explicitly terrible against that exact enemy type.

DuraBelle isn't exactly oozing with martial prowess, she is neither a skilled nor experienced combatant, making arguments just based on the logic of the "best decision" clearly do not apply to her.

Paragon

Copying

Your point for Wonder Woman being made of clay doesn't support the ability to replicate Chi Long, Wonder Woman was molded from clay and then turned into a living being, she is very evidently not still made of clay, while Chi Long is just made of crystal

• Wonder Woman clearly doesn't have the consistency of clay as she bruises, bleeds, gets scraped
• Has bones
• Can have children
• Has a heart, and has a heart attack

While when Chi Long gets hit, he simply breaks and cracks other crystal gods shatter into pieces and clearly are just crystal and nothing else.

The point for the Golem also doesn't really help with what you've claimed.

• Paragon states that normally powers are copied automatically, this time he only feels a connection
• Paragon has to physically touch the Golem for several moments before he ever uses any of it's abilities

There is 0 evidence for Paragon copying Chi Long automatically, your points contextualizing the Golem feat don't matter because they still don't present a case in which Paragon instantly copies Chi Long.

You're correcting me and the implying that his proves a completely separate point:

• You've argued that I'm wrong about the scenario because Paragon feels a connection to the Golem
• This has nothing to do with my claim that Chi Long isn't being automatically copied

This simple fact is that Paragon did not automatically copy the Golem, he states his powers are usually automatic and affect organic beings, Chi Long is clearly not organic, if Chi Long is the same case as the Golem it doesn't affect my arguments.

Additionally Paragon's skill sucks if he doesn't copy Chi Long because all he is is marginally better than someone who sucks at fighting, I'm probably as good as DuraBelle in terms of martial arts.

Super Skrull

Super Skrull is clearly going to be the first to die, my opponent's arguments for how he behaves are inconsistent at best and I will clearly demonstrate that.

Defending

While my opponent has made repeated claims for Super Skrull's defensive capabilities nullifying the disadvantages he has, all of his arguments for his offensive capabilities seem to outright override this, he is practically arguing for two different characters here.

• Here is all but one of the various scans my opponent has linked in relation to Skrull attacking my team

Notice that in the myriad of scans, not a single one of these has Skrull adequately defending at the same time, all of these clearly show an ability for my team to counter attack Skrull, and doing so instantly removes Skrull from the fight.

• Even in the cases of him using multiple powers at once, only a single one of these really has him attacking at the same time he is defending in a major capacity, not to mention that the feat itself sucks.

Yet even so in the singular case of him being majorly shielded at the same time he is attacking, doing so does not mean he is presented from my team's attacks.

• It is not as his fire will repel a lightning blast from traveling through the same hole he created
• The Mold Spear could also fit through that hole, and the flames are not adequate to prevent that
  • As it travels at light speed being capable of incinerating it faster than it could reach Skrull would imply an insane level of heat that could just as easily kill DuraBelle.

Even the scans you've linked for his elasticity don't really change anything.

• This not only is still significantly worse than what Coco's projectiles are covering, but he is literally blocking the majority of the projectiles

If he did exactly this against Coco or Enel, he's dead.

Offense

Gets him killed, see "Defending"

• Skrull's attacks aren't fast enough to hit my team

• Skrull dies if he tries to hit my team

• Skrull consistently attacks without defending

Along with the various unaddressed points of Skrull dying if he succeeds in attacking Coco in the first place, you've shown multiple cases where Skrull attacks in such a method that performing it against Coco is death.

Skrull is clearly not some hyper optimized combatant like you are portraying him, he doesn't instantly shield himself and shoot his most powerful blasts out of a tiny gap in his shields, 99% of the time he just runs in or shoots blasts undefended, my team can easily take him out in the opening moments of the fight with unreactable attacks that one shot him.

/u/mikhailnikolaievitch

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Final Response Part 3

Team Fightan

This will pretty much be a rehash of what I stated last time because nothing has really changed, your arguments for DuraBelle are based almost entirely on what the judges stated of the tier setter, but none of them hold any actual weight.

On top of the fact that you're assessment of Chi Long's feats, especially in comparison with the DuraBelle "feat", are nonsensical at best.

Skrull Dies

As with the myriad of evidence you've provided, the general course of action that Skrull takes isn't to constantly defend himself but rather throw out attacks while only being somewhat defended at best.

• Over 15 instances solely linked by you that demonstrate Skrull using his abilities in such a way that leaves him clearly vulnerable towards my team attacking him

And my team attacking him is effective because:

• Skrull's singular even somewhat quantifiable feat related to electricity is a being shocked by train tracks

  • Other feats include, a random featless machine paralyzing him
  • An unquantifiable blast from Thor one shotting him
  • While Enel's lightning possesses sufficient charge to power a massive flying arc with a singular discharge
  • Enel's Mantra can track people he cannot see, Enel can observe the entirety of a country at once

• Skrull has no feats relating to poison

  • Coco's poison affects creatures that weigh millions of times more than Skrull and carry more anti-bodies than anything else on the planet
  • Coco's poison can travel at the speed of light
  • You yourself have made several arguments for Skrull attacking via methods that would always put him in contact with Coco's poison
  • Coco can create replicas of himself that could draw these attacks as well
  • Coco can see in Infrared, which explicitly can track opponents through Skrull's method of invisibility

Skrull has no actual method for hitting my back line ever, Skrull dies if anything hits him, Skrull constantly attacks while relatively undefended, Skrull's method of attacking even if successful would one shot himself.

Weapons Are Gone

As the section says:

• Chi Long can rid the arena of weapons
• Enel attacking destroys weapons
• Coco attacking destroys weapons
• DuraBelle attacking destroys her own weapons

My opponent has continuously tried to make the argument that because my team does not target weapons, that this won't happen, but as I've stated before and shown above again, they don't have to "target" the weapon in order for my attacks to destroy their weapons, simply because of size.

DuraBelle Sux

As the section says:

• DuraBelle is low in combat prowess
• DuraBelle is considerably weaker without a melee weapon
• DuraBelle is fighting against someone with considerably more reach

Paragon Sux

Read above in addition to:

• Paragon can't copy Chi Long, and won't get the opportunity to copy the other members of my team
• Paragon dies in one hit if he gets launched far enough away
• Paragon dies if DuraBelle gets hit once and gets launched far away
• Paragon's singular source of flight is by far the most likely to die in the initial outset of the fight

Chi Long SLAPS

Look at this fucking chad

• Incinerating cities
• The force of his hammer swings turn city blocks into piles of rubble
• Is tall as hell
• Has a big ass weapon by default
• Takes 3 hits equivalent to his own strikes to the chest while weakened.

Chi Long is more than capable of handling two martial arts amateurs who have no access to a weapon by which the vast majority of their efficacy is coming from.

Conclusion

My team has clear ways of dismantling any hope of winning my opponent's team has, Skrull is incredibly easy to kill and my team has a myriad of methods to deal with DuraBelle and by extension Paragon, Durabelle simply is weak without access to weapons, and my team is consistently capable of disarming her just via attacking normally, and even capable of ridding any possible access to weapons at all.

/u/mikhailnikolaievitch

[u/mikhailnikolaievitch → u/[deleted]]

Response 3 (1/3)

Overview

The only win condition my opponent proposed against 2/3rds of my team rests entirely on Chi Long, and specifically on Chi Long winning after a contrived set of circumstances. Said contrivances require massively convenient assumptions, in-character behavior that was never evidenced, and a complete disregard for several counters already raised.

After repeatedly being caught with his hand in the cookie jar, pathologically lying about the evidence under discussion, my opponent comes nowhere close to earning the trust required to grant such contrivances any plausibility. Team Buster's win remains straightforward, adaptable to a variety of assumptions, and credibly proposed in an honest fashion.

Chi Long Loses

Outnumbered

My opponent never proposed that Enel or Coco were of any assistance to Chi Long in a melee. Quite the opposite, he outright proposed that Enel/Coco would flee the city for Chi Long to use Fire of Nine Heavens and that both would apparently flee the second Team Buster came anywhere close to them.

Despite that, every time my opponent described Chi Long in a melee it was as a 1v1. I even pressed this point's absurdity, and it's gone entirely ignored. Chi Long is demonstrably terrible at evading attacks from multiple directions. Hell, he's bad at evading attacks even from a single direction. I even argued last round that Chi Long willingly takes hits and it wasn't contested, probably because Chi Long is a weirdo who invites damage and enjoys pain. This would all be damning against a single opponent, but against 3 who all have experience alongside teammates Chi Long's chances of winning plummet.

The 1 feat used for Chi Long sucks

Thus far we've dealt exclusively with Chi Long's highest end striking feat, assuming his every blow is equivalent to that and even scaling his durability from that. We'll get to the problems with that in a second, but even at face value the 1 feat Chi Long's sole win condition relies on sucks.

My opponent's description of the feat doesn't make any sense. He says the feat is 100% KE because the force spread out and then bounced "back upwards"?? It's far MORE explicit in the feat itself that magical fire is produced to weaken the ground and all structures involved and "brings the fire of hell to the surface." It's probably for this reason that the feat isn't included in Chi Long's strength section, and citing it as a strength feat is massively transformative evidence N/A to the tournament. At best this indicates that Chi Long's most powerful strike can destroy 1 city block when massively assisted by other damage types that are irrelevant to my entire team.

Even at face value, the feat requires a massive amount of 2-handed windup uninterrupted by a counterattack at the ground rather than an actual opponent. Evading this attack, especially for 3 invisible team members cooperating with eachother, is insanely easy.

Chi Long has no other striking anywhere close

This is just straight obvious. Chi Long's normal attacks he actually uses in fights do nowhere close to the damage in the feat above. These are his actual strength feats in his actual strength section, all demonstrating how he most often fights H2H without the aid of the magic hammer or magic fire required in the 1 feat cited for him.

Let's be absurdly generous in calc'ing the energy of Chi Long's normal strikes. Typically in the above he's busting holes in pre-modern building materials, so by analogy to a wrecking ball, even if Chi Long's strikes were multiplied 100,000 times he would only be producing .006 of a TJ.

My opponent has refused to quantify Chi Long's feats because any effort to do so reveals that he is thousands (if not millions) of times weaker than DuraBelle & Paragon. He literally can't even hurt them, and since his own durability scales to his offense, they easily 1 shot him.

Interpreting DuraBelle

In order for my opponent's interpretation to work he constructed a world where physics don't matter, joules don't mean anything, and science itself changes based on interpretation. I previously outlined the 2 options interpreting NukeMap leaves us with. Let's revisit those:

A) The comparison to NukeMap is legitimate. Verlux was not specifically quantifying the tier setter as distinct from the character, he was providing a frame of reference to help people find characters with strength comparable to the tier setter. He said that the advantage to Metaverse was that it made the tier setter as objective as possible, not the other way around. This word was an official endorsement of NukeMap as a reference point, and without it no participant would have any frame of reference for how strong their characters should be. In this weird "Terajoules don't exist" world my opponent creates, there would be literally no way to gauge whether a feat was in or out of the tier. The entire logic of the tournament itself demands that this is what a 1 TJ strike translates to regardless of who's producing it or surface area involved.

B) If the comparison to NukeMap is illegitimate, my opponent's own assumptions lead to DuraBelle's strikes being massively better than what the NukeMap presents. My opponent keeps arguing that Chi Long's smaller surface area makes his strikes superior to an explosion but that logic would also apply to DuraBelle. If surface area is a relevant factor, then the NukeMap is representing an insanely low fraction of the damage DuraBelle is producing.

My opponent hasn't delegitimized comparing DuraBelle's strikes to explosions -- he's only managed to argue why the energy of explosions would be insane lowballs for what DuraBelle's strikes can do. I have no idea why he thought this would be useful to his point. Even 500 tons of TNT do damage superior to Chi Long's normal strikes, and that would represent the midrange of what DuraBelle is capable of.

Any consistent comparison between Chi Long and DuraBelle necessitates Chi Long's inferiority. Even highballed estimates for his strongest possible strikes (when interpreted generously to be entirely KE rather than magical heat damage + KE) still pales in comparison to DuraBelle's bare minimum 1 TJ striking she produces every time she punches. His attacks cannot even phase her, let alone beat her.

Chi Long's esoterics suck

Enel's lightning or Coco's poison both OHKO Chi Long -- this was not even disputed. The AoE of their attacks threaten Chi Long, and any proximity to Paragon equates to him OHKOing Chi Long from whatever distance he's at.

Heat has been a contentious issue, so let's look at the defenses proposed for Chi Long's heat resistance:

1. Chi Long has a specific resistance to his own fire, which obviously wouldn't apply to someone else attacking him with superior fire
2. Burning a "dimension" is not a real heat feat to scale resistance to. This is magical fire, destroying an intangible thing like a "pocket dimension" has no real-world basis. The fact that my opponent disregards terajoules' bearing on physics but scales to dimension-burning for heat resistance is absurd.
3. Chi Long can't even scale to the high-end dimension-burning feat for Zi Yu in the first place. Here is Chi Long taking several quick strikes from Zi Yu producing small lines of flame. How is that at all similar to Zi Yu explicitly trying his absolute hardest over an extended period of time as in the sole feat Chi Long's heat resistance was scaled to?

That's literally it. The entire argument for Chi Long's heat resistance necessitates scaling he doesn't even really have to a feat that isn't even quantifiable. If the same burden of proof my opponent demanded for DuraBelle's striking were required for Chi Long's heat resistance, Chi Long would be OHKO'd before a melee ever happened.

Invisibility

Chi Long can't even see the people he's fighting, the same people who can each individually OHKO him. My opponent paid lip service to Coco directing his team with his debatable ability to see through the invisibility, yet the melee with Chi Long necessitates that Coco be nowhere in range. If Coco were in range, then Paragon mimicking his poison only gives him an additional OHKO option against Chi Long.

​

There is no interpretation of the fight with Chi Long where my team does not enjoy insurmountable advantages.

[u/mikhailnikolaievitch → u/mikhailnikolaievitch]

Response 3 (2/3)

Coco & Enel Are Also Useless

There was never a single win condition proposed for Coco & Enel. Apart from vague descriptions of how they contribute to Chi Long winning, their offensive value in this fight is essentially 0. Coco's poison was only proposed to have some vague effect on DuraBelle & Paragon over a vague amount of time, and Enel's lightning was outright admitted to be useless against them. There's no logic or evidence present in this debate by which the 2 of them could win against DuraBelle by herself, let alone a second DuraBelle who can also copy their powers.

They're an active hindrance

Since Coco & Enel's offenses can OHKO Chi Long but have no effect on 2/3rds of Team Buster they are an active hindrance to their own team winning. My opponent's win con necessitates a melee with Chi Long, so let's look at their contributions then:

If Coco/Enel attack from range while Chi Long engages in a melee, they risk OHKOing him. My opponent proposed Coco's lightning attacks would be on this level, which clearly shows an AoE too large to hit DuraBelle/Paragon without also hitting Chi Long. Does Coco want to avoid hitting Chi Long? Then he better not aim anywhere near the tall as hell chad swinging a big ass metal conductor. Most of Coco's attacks seemed to involve a massive AoE, and there were no accuracy feats even presented for him fighting at a range beyond Paragon's copying radius. That's the other thing.

If Coco/Enel come into range for any reason, Paragon would instantly be able to reproduce their win cons against Chi Long. When Paragon was actively tracking down Superman, he was able to sense and duplicate Superman's powers from a skyscraper away. While Superman was in the upper floors of the Daily Planet building, Paragon sensed him, copied his powers, and flew up to attack him, which puts Paragon's range around 300-400 meters. Despite having 0 idea what Paragon can do, or what his range would be if he did, Coco/Enel were argued to arbitrarily stay outside that range at all times. My opponent never wanted to talk about Paragon's range, because any assumption other than "whatever it is Coco/Enel stay out of it" proves devastating to his win con.

Coco had no reason to even be able to reliably put himself out of range, with no speed boost or mobility advantage even allowing him to perpetually avoid a fight. Enel was proposed to have such advantages, but he forfeits the same advantage to Paragon the moment he's anywhere in range.

Invisibility/Blindness

Even under my opponent's interpretation that Coco can perceive invisible objects, said ability would not extend to his allies. If the hope is that he would direct Chi Long while Chi Long engaged in a melee, then he would forfeit his powers to Paragon while at the range necessary to provide direction.

Regardless, his ability to see through the invisibility is bunk. As argued, Coco can't even see the entirety of the infrared/ultraviolet light spectrum, so there's no reason to SuSkru's invisibility occupies whatever indeterminate slice of it Coco can see. Furthermore, the fact that the invisibility can be seen by infrared detection doesn't mean it must be. The invisibility works through manipulating all wavelengths of light, and the scan I originally presented showed it manipulating light's wavelength with the precision to change colors. The invisibility is not a binary on/off -- it contorts to the user's need and as such can render itself undetectable to infrared vision even when needed.

What's worse, Coco's sensitive eyesight would only render him further vulnerable to the incandescence produced as a byproduct by SuSkru/Paragon. Not only is Coco useless, he would quickly become blind and useless.

Precog/Fortune telling

Obviously Coco/Enel aren't impossible to hit. We can't even suppose that they're in the tier if DuraBelle is just flatout incapable of hitting them. Let's look at a few of the flaws with their precog, and bear in mind that their usefulness is still purely defensive. Even if they could avoid getting hit 99.9999% of the time their loss would come as a statistical inevitability in the absence of any offensive options of their own.

Enel's Mantra only foresees a next possible "moment," not the entire future. Given the hypersonic movement speed proposed for him, it's incredibly likely he would put himself in Paragon's range without even realizing Paragon could copy him until it was too late. Even regardless, his Mantra obviously isn't perfect since he can be hit -- there's 0 reason this scan could even exist if Enel truly acted as my opponent proposed. He faces in the current round 2 elastic opponents who can OHKO him, yet my opponent felt that getting hit by 1 elastic opponent was somehow insufficient evidence that would happen.

As for Coco, he just straight says his precog isn't perfect. The fact that he does not share Enel's speed boost or any mobility advantage to speak of is severely detrimental to his ability to retreat or avoid a confrontation. Perhaps the idea is that his Fortune Telling helps him map out the fight beforehand? Except it's basically ass at providing actual specifics. He even says his Fortune Telling only shows him some of the future, and it still failed despite Coco trying his best. Both of those last scans were what my opponent proposed had the "most relevance to a fight" (despite neither even occurring in a fight and they both are utter garbage at providing the details necessary to be useful.

Could it be that the debater who has been lying and distorting evidence throughout this debate is grossly overstating the usefulness of these 2 characters' precog to portray them as untouchable glass canons who conveniently only break in the tier setter match? I'm gonna say that sounds likely.