r/whowouldwin • u/KenfromDiscord • Apr 08 '20

Event Clash of Titans Season 3 Round 2.

Out of Tier Rules

For Out of Tier requests, Simply debate better than your opponents. The judges will judge the quality of both participants arguments into question and decide a winner based on that.

Battle Rules

Speed - movement speed and combat speed will be set at Mach 1, Combat and movement speed, with their reactions scaled down/up relatively. Speed boosts via abilities, however, are indeed allowed to make one surpass this base speed threshold.

Battleground:

Its SCP-3008. SCP 3008 is an huge space (Current measurements indicate an area of at least 10km2) designed to look like the inside of a regular Ikea store. The arena will be tall enough that the largest submitted character can fit comfortably inside. Combatants start 10 meters away from each other, and in a line spaced 2 meters apart from their allies. Every combatant starts each round being 'teleported' into the arena, knowing full well whomever they face down needs to die or be incapacitated in order for they themselves to advance and win and will do so, and with knowledge of their allies' weapons and abilities. All combatants begin without any weapons drawn or abilities active, hands idle at their sides, weapons holstered, and the moment they teleport in they can begin combat. All combatants are in-character for the tourney itself. No character can escape SCP-3008.

As a side note, the towns that have been set up as well as SCP-3008-2 are not present for the tourney.

Side side note, while combatants cannot exit the arena that does not preclude parts of the arena being torn off and used as weapons.

Combatants spawn in the very center of the Ikea.

Submission Rules

Tier:

Must be able to win an unlikely victory, draw/near draw, or likely victory against

Ben Grimm AKA The Thing

in the conditions outlined above; All entrants will be bloodlusted against The Thing, meaning they will act fully rationally and put down their opponent in the quickest, most efficient manner possible regardless of morality, utilizing any and all possible techniques/tactics/attacks if necessary.

For tier setter fights/OOT requests assume both Thing and your character are bloodlusted

Debate Rules

Rounds will last 5 days, hopefully from Tuesday until Sunday of each week of the tourney; there is a 48 hour time limit both on starting (we do not care who starts, you and your opponent can figure that out) AND on responses, AND ADDITIONALLY each user MUST get in two responses or else be disqualified. If one user waits until the very last minute to force this rule to DQ their opponent without any forewarning to their opponents or the tournament supervisors, they will be removed from this tournament, no exceptions.

Format for each round: both respondents get Intro + 1st Response, then 2nd response, then a 3rd response and closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. EACH RESPONSE MUST BE NO LONGER THAN THREE REDDIT COMMENTS LONG WITH A HARD CAP OF 25,000 CHARACTERS SPLIT BETWEEN THE THREE.

Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are determined by randomization. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa. First Round will be determined by coin flip.

Brackets Here

Round 2 will be

1v1 match ups.

Round 2 Ends Tuesday April 14th Midnight EST

Format for each round: both respondents get Intro + 1st Response, then 2nd response, then a 3rd response and closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. EACH RESPONSE MUST BE NO LONGER THAN THREE REDDIT COMMENTS LONG WITH A HARD CAP OF 25,000 CHARACTERS SPLIT BETWEEN THE THREE.

Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are randomized based on sign up order via an internet list randomizer. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa. First Round will be determined by coin flip, and as it is 3v3s, next shall be 1v1, and so on and so forth.

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u/EmbraceAllDeath ​ Apr 12 '20

Clash Of Titans Round 2 Response 3 Part (3/3)

Luke Cage vs Roboute

OOT Request

Heat

Response 2

  • BTC says Roboute will use this sword in combat

  • when Cage approaches, Guilliman … swings his sword and Cage just dies.

Response 1

  • BTC claims that people with Johnny Storm nova heat durability cannot survive vs the sword

  • As she has not given even a remotely quantity as to how semi-nova or nova stacks up against a sword that burns through people capable of no-selling energy blasts that turn people into ash, Guilliman swings his sword at Cage and Cage dies.

Response 2

  • Tourney Setter Thing dies to nova level heat

  • For tourney purposes, Thing would die to the Human Torch's nova-level heat

Thing Tourney RT

  • This is a fairly open and shut case. BTC says that their character can one-shot Luke Cage with heat when their heat durability is above the tier setters, and more importantly says that someone surviving nova level heat (I.e someone stronger than Thing) would get one shotted by a heat sword. BTC has unambiguously represented their character as OOT with regards to heat.

Luke blunt vs Roboute

  • Roboute takes more damage than a cannonball

  • Ok

  • Angron imparts blunt force

  • If you get a couple of glancing blows that cause piercing damage, you are not receiving blunt energy. You can't prove that Roboute takes on blunt force, because none of the attacks he takes requires him to do so.

  • hypocritical on lifting divorced by striking

  • No. My argument is that they're still divorced, but even if we were to go by your logic Luke Cage is still massively stronger.

  • Luke's only true striking feats are an unquantifiable earthquake and breaking rock vs one-hitting tanks

  • I'm not sure you understand the tier. Anti tank weapons can be endured by Venom, who is vastly below Thing. The earthquake isn't unquantifiable given the relative damage to the street. The rock is comparable to Thing's strikes.

  • telekinesis feat

  • Thrown objects have to fall down (making gravity relevant). Additionally, we don't know fast they're telekinetically accelerated. Lastly, you haven't dispute Roboute receiving a small fraction of the telekinesis, which is what matters here.

Defense vs Blunt

  • capacitor arg

  • He's not beneath the capacitor. He's beneath other wreackage, which he gets out of. Then he pushes the capacitor aside. Most common definition doesn't cut it, authors don't default to the most common definition.

  • Angron was healed

  • Standing up doesn't mean you're completely free of injuries, and in fact this is incredibly ableist. Not every injury manifests itself in a inability to walk. It can be a limp, a pain that ebbs or flows, cartilage deterioration, etc, and saying that standing up implies that you could only be in pristine condition is incredibly rude.

  • My opponent claims that Angron hasn't healed up. Again from the picture given, Angron is standing perfectly fine (something a snapped spine doesn't let you do). In fact, from the picture given, the only thing that can be discerned is Angron is in fully pristine condition. If she wants to prove he has lingering injuries, that is on her to do.

  • no reason was given for Angron being a 200 tonner is fake

  • No reason needs to be given. You know it. I know it. The judges know it.

  • There's not one attack that compares to Luke taking direct attacks from Thing

Defense vs esoterics

  • The gun pierces Luke

  • Okay, I'm just going to take a different tack first

  • First, unlike my character's projectiles (which have defined speeds higher than their running speed), BTC has failed to prove that it tags Luke in any way. At the end of the day, a gun shoots bullets at bullet speed. However, Roboute moves at way faster than bullet speed, making the gun useless for doing anything in a speed equalized format.

  • Now, back on the piercing claim. Kevlar has a tensile strength of 3000-3620 MPa. Steel, which an armor shell pierces, has a tensile strength of 420 MPa. There's generally no comparison here, Luke takes piercing that would dwarf what an armor piercing shell does.

  • Now for Guilliman's gun, it's bad. The fact that it "tears apart" Space Marine armor indicates that it has a high surface area, which makes it more akin to a punch than a piercing implement. This is especially true when the gun is rather large to Guilliman's body, who himself is large . The fact that the bullets are large also support that they're slower than regular bullets, making it furthermore useless for speed equalization. Guilliman shoots at Luke, he dodges or just tanks it.

  • Sword vaporizes Luke

  • Okay, I wasn't really aware that is was fire from your initial response. In any case, I'll quantify Johnny's heat, even if I don't need to (See the OOT). Without going Nova, Johnny can set a planet-sized object on fire quickly, side effects of his flames melt enormous hills, or burns through over 3000 miles of earth within seconds. The fact that Johnny thinks he needs to go beyond this to semi-nova is astonishingly good for the tier, to the point that you can't beat Luke with heat, even fire that's mildy above turning people to ash (and normal fire can do the latter fairly easily).

  • Sword pierces through Luke.

  • You haven't shown how Roboute's sword piercing through someone above Kevlar which is above TS Thing's piercing resist. Additionally, the sword is visually large because Roboute is large, which means that is has a significant surface area and acts more like a club relative to Luke.

  • Embrace should prove split durability isn't a thing

  • I don't have to, because split durability isn't how physics works. A punch can piercing if it concentrates enough force into a small enough surface area. A sword attempts to reduce the surface area to be more effective than a punch. However, if someone takes a punch with x pounds per a square inch, they should be fine taking a sword with x pounds per a square inch. Split durability only makes sense if a character has piercing anti-feats. None of my characters have piercing anti-feats, while 40K characters do, which is why split durability piercing is relevant to them but not to my team. Large "piercing" weapons should no matter to Luke when he takes punches comparable in surface area to Roboute's attacks with far larger force behind them.

/u/British_Tea_Company

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u/British_Tea_Company Apr 13 '20

Response 3 Part 1

Guilliman

OOT Defense

I am going to invert the response due to this.

  • For purposes of claims presented, my opponent has stated: That Luke can walk through a semi-nova

  • For purposes of my own claims, I've stated that my opponent has not quantified what a semi-nova or nova does in relation to the feats provided.

As stated, it is important to consider that the above statement comes not from what the objective stats of the situation may be, simply from the debate thus far, no adequate defense has been presented beyond "look at these feats, they're better" with the "how?" definitively unanswered.

When we consider that the upper limit assumed for the Thing is nova and the feat provided only demonstrates semi-nova and on the last panel, even shows a somewhat intact wooden boardwalk, this feat as shown isn't even good to begin with. All this feat demonstrates objectively is that Luke Cage had to flee into water after being showered by flames that couldn't even do significant damage to a boardwalk.

When we have the tier-setter's feats being able to tank nova (which by scaling purposes, is stronger than the above feat) and being able to withstand something like a heat beam capable of melting 30 feet of titanium, Guilliman's sword isn't out of tier. Luke Cage simply from an objective standpoint fails to have anything approaching the tier setter's heat capability.

Guilliman

Gun

  • My opponent claims that due to speed equalization in play, Guilliman's gun would be slow. This however is wrong. Notice in ALL EXAMPLES given, these were all reaction feats. Not a single one of them pertains to Guilliman doing things such as moving faster than bolters, only being able to react to them. Among Guilliman's objective movement feats, there is not a single instance suggesting he is mach.

    • For a baseline, bolters (which Guilliman's gun is described as being), are hypersonic. Combining the above, his gun becomes faster.
    • As an addendum, the argument pertaining to 'bigger bullet = slower bullet', is objectively untrue. Not only is it a claim with no basis, it is in fact disproved when you realize some of the largest guns ever built are leaps and bounds faster than plenty of smaller weapons.

  • This is egregious on many places. Modern-day tanks don't even use steel in their armor anymore. They use things like composite armor. My opponent is using perhaps a minor facet of what piercing durability entails, ignoring things like how much material is present and how the material is angled. Finally, my opponent has for whatever ungodly reason attempted to reason that kevlar would protect you better from a tank shell than tank armor? Even pretending we're in WWII where tanks were largely made out of steel, it is basically a no-brainer to consider a tank would protect you far better than just kevlar.

  • Lastly, my opponent claimed that more surface area causes Guilliman's bullets to cease to be piercing as a result of the wording from 'tearing apart'. Here is an instance where piercing weapons (i.e a .50 CAL) do in fact tear apart things as a result of being so great at piercing them.

The only thing presented by my opponent directly involving Luke Cage is the fact Luke Cage can tank bullets that can pierce Kevlar. Per the damage given by Guilliman tearing apart people in power armor (who literally have feats of being bulletproof mind you), this effectively means Guilliman hitting Cage is a fatality. With Guilliman so much as lacking any feats approaching sonic in respects to his combat/travel, he is upscaled for the purposes of this tourney, and with that, so is his gun.

Sword

  • The arguments presented here don't scale to Cage in any reasonable way. We see what the damage which Johnny does with his semi-nova in the instance against Cage, and quite frankly what is objectively shown is not anything that is otherwise equal to these feats. Recall as above that in this particular instance, a wooden boardwalk remained largely intact for the duration of the attack while Cage himself was visibly hurt from the instance. As an aside, Johnny straight up has some significant divorce in his heat feats.

  • My opponent here seems to have forgotten this scan in her claim that Guilliman's sword couldn't pierce things like Kevlar. For more additional scans, here is where Guilliman kills a terminator where earlier in the same book, terminators are described to be capable of taking volleys of bolters and other weapons before going down.

  • This is false. This and this unambiguously makes it clear Guilliman's sword is doing piercing damage.

  • This paragraph can be dismissed to its entirety. Not only does it fail to adhere to its own standard of evidence (Luke Cage's piercing feats such as the 'tougher than Kevlar feat' is significantly weaker than the rock feat from earlier), but makes an unvalidated claim about 40k. As is, all we've been given is that he's 'tougher than kevlar', and this is even the assumption my opponent runs with when she asks "prove his piercing is better than kevlar", which has been done, multiple times.

Conclusion

The stated win conditions from Guilliman's gun and sword give him not only two insta-kill options, both of which he uses a ton of in-character, but also interrupt Luke's win condition. Luke cannot approach Guilliman much in the same way a regular person cannot approach another a regular person armed with a sword and a gun. Even if he did, there is no guarantee he even so much as hurts Guilliman enough to prevent him from fighting back which again, leads to a one-shot. The primary indicator of this is the Magnus feat which my opponent brings up. What I had addressed already was the fact that the capacitor had to be directly above Guilliman due to the fact the text states he went his way up. Gravity's effects are irrelevant much like how much it hurts to be a whipped by a dodgeball has no bearing on how strong the gravity is. All that matters is the fact that even if the rubble was going at any pace even capable of catching a human (nevermind someone superhumanly) fast, it would absolutely strike within tier.

Vulkan

Thunderbolt won't hit

Zerora vs Pikachu

This is literally being done to a character not even looking at the source of the attack. Attempting to claim its faster from the scaling of the second gif already doesn't work as my opponent seems fixated on the idea that an opponent not even paying attention somehow scales if they're hit. This is further made worse by the fact that Zerora isn't shown using any addition speed until after the clash has finished, rather than before the clash, suggesting Zerora isn't even someone who always uses his speed.

Lucario

Lucario spends most of this shot looking away from Pikachu and then literally turning his head. Again, this is a case of opponent not paying attention.

Buzzwole

The fact Buzzwole bothers to turn around suggests that he doesn't have 360o vision as my opponent claims. Attempting to say "but that's how he's drawn" would be like saying Pokemon humans have greater peripheral vision due to how they're drawn. It is literally just art style.

1

u/British_Tea_Company Apr 13 '20

Response 3 part 2

Visually slow feats

We literally have a comparision to how fast Pikachu moves and how fast the lightning trail moves here. The lightning trail is barely faster than Pikachu running faster than a house cat. You don't need time and distance if you compare two things happening sequentially. Likewise we have the idea how large the mecha is from the buildings, and the progression of when the light starts at the bottom of the mecha and finally hits the top. It's objectively a slow feat. * As an addendum, its not actually that hard hitting of a feat either. A point about this feat is that it takes several seconds to pull off which essentially means the feat is significantly reduced both from the fact that it takes several seconds (a long time in speed equalization) to replicate the full power.

Old vs new animation

You don't get to decide which specific stats of Pikachu you get to pick out. In his newer feats which you have shown, where there is tangibly a difference in animation style due to technology progressing, he never once replicates the feat of the mecha. As you happen to run "Pikachu from the Pokemon anime", not "Pikachu but he has the speed of the newer anime and the raw firepower of the old ones". As his mecha feat never has anything like it replicated again, you either take with the assumption of time progression and discard it as an outlier never again replicated, or you clump them all together and realize the only time you get to use the mecha feat if it comes with the assumption the attack is painfully slow due to the fact that none of the new attacks feature that power but share a discrepancy in terms of speed.

Thunderbolt isn't strong

Team Rocket

We never see how badly Team Rocket is after they land, we never see how fast they land which is the biggest telling as to how hurt they will be, and we never see how long it takes them to recover from these spans. These 'feats' may not even be better than irl, as real life humans can actually replicate it" at this article states people have fallen from 10,000+ meters high. At worst, this is irl tier. At best, this is maybe barely superhuman. Again, not even remotely close to the degree of superhuman Ash is from just the tree feat alone.

Water sprout

We literally see the steam only hisses from this portion which Pikachu was immediately in. Again, its not a strong feat.

A tank is made of the same materials as the dome

This is literally assumed. We have no idea what the dome is made out of for one, and two, the hole is way smaller than a tank as evidenced by this shot, and the light beam being barely larger than a pokemon that's... dog sized.

Sprinklers

Literally nothing in the OP or the sign up post say anything about environmental speeds being changed. This entire point is rendered moot.

Web is slow

My opponent literally concedes that Mimikyu reacts but performs the objectively wrong move in order to dodge the web.

Pikachu is falling mildly while being pushed back significantly from throwing the electro web in the first place. Horizontal speed doesn't show that the electroweb is slow, but the opposite.

Literally what proof shows that he would be knocked back from an attack he made. This is entirely headcannon now.

Japanese

People screaming loud things is still an indicator of attacking. Vulkan regularly fights an alien race that screams when they attack.

Pikachu melee damage

Scaling

To readdress the issues with the scaling train between Pikachu/Zerarora/Guzzlord

  • My opponent's link talks about SKYSCRAPERS. Even going through this gif again, there is little evidence suggesting the buildings are even about 10ish stories tall. Furthermore, my opponent also has no addressed that due to the off-screen nature of this feat, we have no idea how many tries it took Guzzlord to actually perform this feat each time, the mechanics to how this was possible or how long till collapse.

  • My opponent suggests that Zerora matches Guzzlord blow for blow. This is not blow for blow. The two don't scale either.

Effectively, all my opponent does prove is that Pikachu can scale to Guzzlord. Who can knock over Guzzlord... when Guzzlord is focusing on something else.

Pasting humans + Rock

My opponent against drastically underestimates how strong the feat is when its explicitly stated we had molten armor being considered in the equation. Again, my wording was fully armored space marine, not butt naked human. Moreover, the Gyrados feat fails to prove anything meaningful about how it'd be stronger than a tank. Rocks are weaker than tanks mostly indicated by the fact we don't simply slap rocks onto tanks and assume that offers any meaningful layer of protection, and the rock shown is not only not even close to the size of a tank.

Iron Tail isn't piercing

At best, you have inconsistent piercing with Iron Tail.

Let's pretend for a moment that Ash can consciously decide when Pikachu cuts/bludgeons. What has still went unaddressed is whether or not he'd do it to a human being.

Pikachu's speed advantage was not meaningfully contested

No. You have asserted that leaping is divorced from travel speed and combat speed. Especially as its not an ability but a physical stat, it gets equalized as well.

Vulkan's stats

  • This is literally built upon an assumption of his traits. In addition, it is also wrong. The character he concedes the competition to is literally a stranger. The text even refers to him as an outlander. He proves quite there that he's not willing to take credit where credit isn't due, as he has literally no reason to trust this man or care about his feelings. Him claiming he is the strongest among his brothers, and also stating he has fought all of them demonstrates he has an innate grip upon their stats, and his personality as established means unless he believes what he is saying, he would not say it.

  • The mechanics presented to how the tank destruction has worked aren't even remotely the same to the video you've given. Vulkan is swinging a hammer at said tanks. He isn't firing a rocket at them. The text explicitly states he even crushes the upper turret in doing so, and given how tank armor is considerably more durable than rocks, him being able to crush a tank turret is far better than being able to destroy rocks which aren't even going to be remotely the same size, as Charziard's wingspan which is about the size of said rocks is human sized while tank turrets are huge compared to that.

  • This has literally no bearing upon the conversation at hand. You're naming a literal example of an outlier with tangible anti-feats to prove that it is and claiming its the same despite the two having no relation period. Moreover, literally zero examples were given as to how Vulkan being a 200+ tonner would somehow be an outlier when he does, and I've even given a similar feat with the ship mentioned. You claim its 'small' but we literally have a frame of reference to how big a person is to it, and this ship is big enough to mount not only a weapon, but carry multiple people. And that's not even factoring once again, this feat was done when he was a year old.

Conclusion: Vulkan's win condition of being able to one-tap Pikachu has actually not been contested beyond the dubious scaling which requires off-screen elements and 'scaling, but not really'. Combined with the fact that Vulkan has a hammer, he will hit first in melee due to having bigger reach. He reaches his win condition as his opponent has literally no projectile that will ever catch him, ever hurt him, and his opponent's durability is built up on shoddy scaling.

1

u/British_Tea_Company Apr 13 '20

response 3 part 3

Sangunius

Shuriken is slow

Abomnasnow

Being aware of it halfway through also means the window to dodge normally has passed. Moreover, with the way that the camera cuts, you have ZERO way of saying that it was halfway. Finally, you are also making the assumption that Abomnasnow was forced to block rather than made the conscious decision to even with your interpretation which remains incorrect as you CANNOT even prove halfway is the mark.

Altaria

Altaria is objectively slow in all facets of this. The distance traveled isn't fast, it takes literally ~2 seconds for the hit to strike which is easily reactable even by human standards, and again, this is under the assumption that Greninja was blitzed by the attack, which is not tangibly shown versus consciously deciding to block.

Sure. Pokemon verse is generally transonic (mach 1) because Pokemon make mach cones

Literally not one scan was given to prove this. Might as well as be made up.

I can still follow a gif at that size

No, you can't. Staring at the monitors has no baring to what his eyesight is, the fact he has the capability to see 100 images each the size of a baby's fingernail is what's impressive. Look at your own fingernails right now and tell me if you can make out anything shrinking it down to that size. Now consider how tiny a baby's fingernails are. The image you link moreover is literally the size of my thumb, let alone just the fingernail. Moreover the wording of that text is specifically perfectly. You cannot make every detail out. Sangunius can.

In-character arguments

Wild pokemon? Maybe. Ash controlling them factors again. Also, you've literally given a broken wiki link but things like Machoke are tangibly not human at all. Moreover:

Ash takes a Beedrill jab that can cut through heavy metal. It isn't lethal for his setting, but it is for yours.

It literally takes a mob of them and they take several seconds to actually try this. We also have zero idea how thick the metal even is.

Greninja's scaling is poorly built

This is literally you repeating the same scaling which I've contested and not providing any more points to it. To reiterate.

Moreover, the Zygarde feat you are relying on literally has them changing direction mid push and we see Zygard that's . Now let's pretend the fact that Zygard didn't hang off the ground for multiple frames in this palpalby in mid-air. Unless you want to argue against what is actually shown on-screen and whether or not Zygarde can change the directions of its targets mid-flight, this was a constant effort. Simply put, your feat does not scale to this tier meaningfully in the slightest.

Greninja dies to acid or heat

Acid

This train of thinking is actually ludicrous. No one says 'acid' in reference to lemon juice and literally describes a burn. My opponent assumes that because acid attacks exist in his world, they automatically scale to Greninja despite not providing any evidence of why they do, or how strong said attacks are.

Trees 'vaporized'

You literally cannot prove ANYTHING got vaporized in this sequence because of the flames. That does address the elephant in the room of how these attacks are clearly SMALLER as it would not have the same level of power. These things fail to scale to each other in any capacity as they are not done with the same effort. Following onto that, specific heat is meaningless when you consider Thermal energy = Specific Heat * (mass in kg) * (change in degrees C) as the overwhelming mass of metal makes this non-comparable as metal is heavier than wood. The spread-outness also refers to the first feat where its wide but weak, doing many weak things versus doing one strong thing. Sangunius does not NEED to concentrate anything when Greninja cannot even scale to a feat that accomplishes lesser damage.

Hyperagility

Have you ever tried charging a guy with a spear? He only needs to see you coming to hold up his weapon and blast.

Conclusion:

My opponent's defenses are not as good as she suggests. Sangunius vaporizing enough metal for his BODY to fit through is more impressive as it demonstrates his ability has depth (damage done) while his opponent's scaling (which is done at a lesser feat) only has width (area of effect). The specific heat reason given utterly fails as my opponent doesn't consider the mass involved. Ash being a 10 year old boy demonstrates zero instances of willingness to kill any human-like entities, whereas Sangunius has demonstrated by and large willingness to kill people who haven't even necessarily wronged him, let alone animals. Either Greninja tries to get close to Sangunius, and Sangunius vaporizes him, or Sangunius gets close and just vaporizes him. Even if Greninja is willing to use his projectiles, it is far too slow to be of any effect.