r/whowouldwin • u/KenfromDiscord • Apr 08 '20

Event Clash of Titans Season 3 Round 2.

Out of Tier Rules

For Out of Tier requests, Simply debate better than your opponents. The judges will judge the quality of both participants arguments into question and decide a winner based on that.

Battle Rules

Speed - movement speed and combat speed will be set at Mach 1, Combat and movement speed, with their reactions scaled down/up relatively. Speed boosts via abilities, however, are indeed allowed to make one surpass this base speed threshold.

Battleground:

Its SCP-3008. SCP 3008 is an huge space (Current measurements indicate an area of at least 10km2) designed to look like the inside of a regular Ikea store. The arena will be tall enough that the largest submitted character can fit comfortably inside. Combatants start 10 meters away from each other, and in a line spaced 2 meters apart from their allies. Every combatant starts each round being 'teleported' into the arena, knowing full well whomever they face down needs to die or be incapacitated in order for they themselves to advance and win and will do so, and with knowledge of their allies' weapons and abilities. All combatants begin without any weapons drawn or abilities active, hands idle at their sides, weapons holstered, and the moment they teleport in they can begin combat. All combatants are in-character for the tourney itself. No character can escape SCP-3008.

As a side note, the towns that have been set up as well as SCP-3008-2 are not present for the tourney.

Side side note, while combatants cannot exit the arena that does not preclude parts of the arena being torn off and used as weapons.

Combatants spawn in the very center of the Ikea.

Submission Rules

Tier:

Must be able to win an unlikely victory, draw/near draw, or likely victory against

Ben Grimm AKA The Thing

in the conditions outlined above; All entrants will be bloodlusted against The Thing, meaning they will act fully rationally and put down their opponent in the quickest, most efficient manner possible regardless of morality, utilizing any and all possible techniques/tactics/attacks if necessary.

For tier setter fights/OOT requests assume both Thing and your character are bloodlusted

Debate Rules

Rounds will last 5 days, hopefully from Tuesday until Sunday of each week of the tourney; there is a 48 hour time limit both on starting (we do not care who starts, you and your opponent can figure that out) AND on responses, AND ADDITIONALLY each user MUST get in two responses or else be disqualified. If one user waits until the very last minute to force this rule to DQ their opponent without any forewarning to their opponents or the tournament supervisors, they will be removed from this tournament, no exceptions.

Format for each round: both respondents get Intro + 1st Response, then 2nd response, then a 3rd response and closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. EACH RESPONSE MUST BE NO LONGER THAN THREE REDDIT COMMENTS LONG WITH A HARD CAP OF 25,000 CHARACTERS SPLIT BETWEEN THE THREE.

Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are determined by randomization. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa. First Round will be determined by coin flip.

Brackets Here

Round 2 will be

1v1 match ups.

Round 2 Ends Tuesday April 14th Midnight EST

Format for each round: both respondents get Intro + 1st Response, then 2nd response, then a 3rd response and closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. EACH RESPONSE MUST BE NO LONGER THAN THREE REDDIT COMMENTS LONG WITH A HARD CAP OF 25,000 CHARACTERS SPLIT BETWEEN THE THREE.

Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are randomized based on sign up order via an internet list randomizer. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa. First Round will be determined by coin flip, and as it is 3v3s, next shall be 1v1, and so on and so forth.

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u/Criminal3x Apr 12 '20

Response 2 Part 1

Captain Marvel vs Alita

Re-establishing Alita's Offense vs Carol's Defense

Alita hits hard enough to hurt Carol with her standard strikes. Alita hitting Carol along a narrow surface area is going to penetrate her. After penetration Alita can continue with severe internal damage to defeat Captain Marvel.

This strategy is viable Captain Marvel as Captain Marvel can be cut. And as shown previous she doesn't have a tendency to dodge swords.

Alita's Defense vs Carol's Offense

My opponent has recognized that Alita has relevant durability for the tier specifically enough for there to be a suspended fight. Other defense aspect can be recognized as she the fact she avoids directly trading blows at a much greater frequency than Captain Marvel.

Rebuttals

  • Is mildly disturbed by War Machine's bullets ...steel plates without stopping

The scaling between Carol, War Machine, and Thing is Dubious at best. To start Thing took a fully stream of bullet directly to the face, while Carol took a countably amount of bullets dispersed throughout her entire body. Also blades behave differently bullets (this can be noted as how there are different vest for stabbing vs shooting).

Furthermore scaling across decades in this case to imply War Machines Bullets are are comparable to those of a tank seems dubious.

I don't this best indicator of that given she "chains" 2 strikes together at most in this, and only 1 connects.

  • which you didn't mention for some weird reason despite the fact she uses them quite frequently,

This is a misunderstanding it's moreso that she used them many times in (single instance) scenarios in early on in getting her Imaginos body.

  • Alita has no feats to suggest she could resist just having her power source getting eaten by Carol and ending the fight.

None of the feats presented had Carol draining a Humanoid Robot, and with the exception of the spear it doesn't seem that they're exactly combat applicable (or something she'd do in combat). In both the cases of Ultron and Iron Man it seemd to involve dealing in situation in which energy excess was posing a problem.

​

Nowhere in the respect thread is it established what Black Bolt is capable of furthermore the attack he is outputting in that earlier scan is clearly different than the one mentioned

​

Alita's attack is much more similar to sonics as in a wave propagating through a medium, than Klaw which was a purple beam, and scaling to Thing is kinda a stretch given the time and clear difference between the weapons faced.

Also Carol was covered her ears at potential explosive device going off near her, she's clearly not invulnerable to sonics, and would not see abosrbing as a first option.

The feats regarding variance in the level of competition that Alita isn't exactly relevant to to point that Alita I was trying to make which is that Alita avoids getting hit in fights Carol does not anywhere near frequently.

Though if you want an instance of her doing it against a physically superior opponent here it is.

​

  • Hulk is lying prone on the ground, and is massively stronger than Carol in every way, what exactly is Carol supposed to do here?

Something different as obviously it's ineffective that is what I was trying to illustrate she will continue with an ineffective attack strategy and Alita will not.

​

Naming the stikes doesn't really change much nor does explaining circumstance regarding her being pressed for time. Also Carol is unlikely to dodge infact it's almost routine. 1 2. Also as shown before Carol literally lets people hit her with weapons, in the event that Alita does one of those punches you consider unchainable it's not like Carol is going to block. If Alita goes for a stab it will be critical.

Conclusion

The initial win condition is valid Carol. Carol while physically impressive in some aspects she is not capable of effectively dealing with both Alita's ability and willingness to pierce her and end the fight. There are some other abilities she [Carol] possesses that could potentially provide benefit but given the circumstance and her opponent it's quite unlikely that they will be used and as such Alita will win.

Killer Bee vs Ah Gou

Killer Bee's Offensive vs Ah Gou Defense

Ah Ghou doesn't have any feat to suggest that he would not be bisected from a direct slash by Killer Bee and more so. Even without his Sword, when using his Chakra Cloak Bee has demonstrated high level offense. A full body charge is capable of collapsing a damaged plateau. His offense would more than overcome Ah Ghou who has feats of being punched through houses (even when accounting for the disperal of energy of from a full body charge).

Re-contextualizing Killer Bee's Defense vs Ah Gou's Offense

Ah Gou striking is relevant for the tier, however Bee's Threshold for injury is seems quite and then there's a further level for being put out of commission which I don't think Ah Gou can overcome before being sliced. To reiterate Killer Bee took this without flinching, before accessing his Chakra cloak.

Rebuttal

  • Monochrome...Ah Gou can freely use Dark Wall on Killer Bee's swords and shatter them, they are far less demonstrably durable.

This hinges on Ah Gou opening with Monochrome which has yet to be demonstrated, and it being acting quick enough to subdue Bee which all in seems unlikely. The cutting power and monochrome doesn't really prove much it's not like he has to concrentrate Monochrome along the edge of blade, he could just concentrate it along his wrist and it'd effectively stop his strike. If he has strength that would it relevant it could be useful in some capacity.

​

  • You're attempting to scale ... Additionally, the strength displayed in the relevant scaling is well below that of the Raikage's feat

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of force production and it's relevance to range of motion. A larger range of motion doesn't necessarily equal greater peak force output unless greater acceleration can be achieved with the larger range of motion. But Naruto striking much like every other characters on my opponent teams has striking that is largely independent acceleration by virtue of authors not being concerned with modeling real world physics. Killer Bee clearly intended to be stronger than the Raikage there.

But none of that really matter because even if Killer Bee was physically weak, he could just do this then Ah Gou loses, by virtue of having zero feats suggesting he's taking a swords which slices through feet of stone and metal with ease.

​

  • A single punch from Ah Gou's Smelting Aura arm is capable of shattering a good chunk of a large stone statue's head ...no feats for cutting through anything that durable

This seems quite reach, it would that there's a consistent application of vectors (magnitude and direction) throughout the series. Take this feat for example he's clearly not being propelled not being propelled back through the air. I'm not implying that fiction is physical accurate but what I am saying that there's likely somewhat unreasonable to draw conclusion about the durability from the offensive output in this case.

  • Unlike the tier setter who's organs are superhumanly strong for being able to take immense impacts and be fine

Saying that tier setter has super humanly strong organs for being able to take impacts, but Bee doesn't is poor interpretation. It's very clear that Bee's organs aren't suffering from heavy trauma after the hits he sustains. Also the scan you presented wouldn't necessarily imply that organs aren't strong just that they cannot increase their strength. And organ strength for Bee has yet to be an issue.

Conclusion

My opponents strategy hinges on Ah Gou opening with Monochrome consistently, which is not demonstrated and it being able to effectively render Killer Bee incapable of attaking him which is supported with weak evidence. There is also an argument that Killer Bee is incapable of penetrating Ah Gou is based on weaker evidence. My initial win condition remains valid. Killer Bee slices him down with minimal effort as Ah Gou has no meaningful piercing resistance feats. Taking even the worse case scenario and Monochrome halves Bee's strength and begins to break down his internal structure Bee could access his Chakra Cloak and effectively end the fight in a single hit.

1

u/Criminal3x Apr 12 '20

Part 2 Response 2

Yuma vs Thing

Yuma's Offense vs Angrir's Defense Re-contextualized

Yuma is capable hitting hard. Using his 5x Boost seal Yuma is capable is capable of essentially shattering the entire left arm of a Rabit (note bottom middle panel). To put this in context a Rabit is capable of taking zero damage from an attack that can eviscerate a Trion Body from hundreds of meters through multiple walls. As a refresher here is the durability of a Trion body (note the collapsing structure of many of the houses).

Using his 5x boost seal each of hits have to ability to destroy the bodies of individuals who can take attacks which destroy multi-level structures. This is also before his peak of 7x. Angrir is going to be hard pressed to consistently withstand this level of output.

This is also not factoring the offensive capacity of his Bound Seal. Which can launch people hard enough to destroy the faces of buildings. And he is shown access to a 6x bound seal.

This is also without mention that he can hit Angrir from essentially anywhere using his Bolt seal and as shown earlier they hit quite hard.

Yuma's Defense vs Angrir Re-established

The likelihood of the Black Trigger having durability less than a normal Border Trigger is quite low. Black Trigger are explicitly stated to be more powerful than normal Triggers so much so that they can change the tide of entire wars between countries with just a few.

At the bare minimum Yuma's Black trigger is as durable as the normal Trion Body when in reality it's very likely much more.

This is all of course neglecting how Angrir will struggle significantly in hitting Yuma, who has no problem using seals such as Bound, Chain, and Shield to avoid contact.

Rebuttals

  • What prevents Thing from simply enacting a grappling option before this?

Whats stopping Yuma from holding Angrir in the air with Chain, or propelling him away? Also angrir has a different characterization than Thing, which doesn't make a grapple charge seem likely.

  • again, my opponent uses the weirdest fucking antifeats to make me appear weak because again he must over-downplay my characters to desperately gain any sort of traction in this debate

The scaling there is dubious as the main feat is separated by many decades and Angrir's ability to beat the wrecker was not a relevant point of contention it was to demonstrate the capacity [Angrir's] to be injured by weaker individuals.

  • Is punched by Terrax through multiple floors of the Baxter Building, and rejoins...than his body.

It's unlikely Reed is referring to the floor reinforced as it can be seen collapsing, he's more than likely talking about the surrounding structure of the building.

Angrir's Lightning

Angrir hasn't hasn't demonstrated the ability to consistently hit fast moving targets in an area with varying visibility such as an IKEA, he used it on Sue who was standing still.

  • Yuma can increase his strength over 3.5 times over time, not only is the length of time needed to achieve this boost not quantified in the slightest

Well it's to be frank it's depicted as near instantly 1 2 3, and he has shown 7x multipliers. I'm being generous with the time due to this quote here, but even then he has demonstrated quick complex Seals with minimal if any help from Replica (the subject of the previous scan).

  • when we can clearly see he's generating a shield to block bullets, additionally even if it were truly bulletproof why would the fact that Yuma has better piercing durability mean he has better blunt durability

It's quite unlikely that an individual would specifically have increased durability to specifically piercing based attacks without mention of it (There is not mention). The idea that he has a shield there is a common misconception but it would be in contrast to "every single" other depiction of shield of a shield in the series as in it is clearly visually shown after the shot/slash/etc.

  • while Yuma has relatively little durability and zero way to establish survival in the long term outside of sacrificing his offense immensely using Bound

To clarify Yuma isn't limited to using one seal at time he can use multiple simultaneously.

Conclusion

It hasn't been demonstrated how Angrir is going to effectively deal with Yuma's mobility which would all but nullify his ability to land strikes especially when used in conjunction which Yuma's ability to displace Angrir's own positioning as well. This is all without factoring Yuma's own durability and his access to shields as well. Yuma's ability to hurt people of a comparable durability to Angrir will make him very hard-pressed to be victorious. Even in the event that it's an extensive time consuming endeavor it's not as if Yuma is pressed for time.

/u/The_Iridescence

1

u/[deleted] Apr 13 '20

bro fuck kluh

Response 2

Alita vs Carol

Unaddressed/Conceded Advantages

The amount of effort that went into my opponent trying to contest Carol's clear physical advantage is zero, he asserts "Alita hits hard enough to hurt Carol with her standard strikes" and then rebuts nothing I've said, he pretty much put all his eggs in the piercing and skill basket, and this isn't spectacular.

  • Robot Drain

None of the feats presented had Carol draining a Humanoid Robot

Literally all of them are.

with the exception of the spear it doesn't seem that they're exactly combat applicable (or something she'd do in combat)

All of them are being done mid-combat scenario.

energy excess

Sure it 'seems' to be, great argument, but Carol also drains robots and machines regularly without said 'energy excess' occurring.

Cutting

literally everything you said here is wrong

since you can't be assed to read the issue this comes from

This character is called the Master of the World, someone who's already strong (Sasquatch is strong asf), and the reason why he looks like a golden knight thing is because he's wielding the Thundersword. The Thundersword is a creation of the Beyonder, an extremely powerful extradimensional entity.

This is all before the fact that the Master of the World barely made that deep of a cut in Carol and again, my opponent is cropping scans, Carol continues fighting after this.

How does 'this random character who I won't find antifeats for cutting Carol' equate to 'Alita can cut Carol', especially when the entirety of your feats for Alita's piercing have been scaling to literal whos.

  • War Machine Scaling

Why would the fact that Thing takes bullets to his face but Carol takes bullets over her body matter, Carol is not punctured by a single bullet while Thing is and is briefly knocked out by them, your point is nonsense.

You then try to make a case that blades are different than bullets because of bulletproof and knifeproof vests, when both are made of the exact same material, Kevlar, the only thing that changes is how tightly its bound. Do you also really want to argue this in a tier where the TS gets their piercing resistance entirely from what's essentially a big bullet and not blades?

Finally, "scaling between decades is unreliable" lol, for one you've never backed up this assertion once in this entire debate, for two Thing fighting War Machine and Carol fighting War Machine happen within 4 years of each other.

Thing gets massively stronger over time, this has been stated multiple times over the course of his history, using a feat of him no-selling an armor piercing round from 1991 should be perfectly applicable if not better during the modern era.

  • Carol blocks swords with her arms

who cares

The amount of times you've shown Carol blocking a sword that hurts her is 0, literally show me one time any of these swords hurt Carol, the exact same thing would happen with Alita, you've posted absolutely zero feats for this sword to show it wouldn't break before piercing Carol's flesh, it's likely Carol can just hit the sword and break it anyway. She's clearly no harder to pierce with a blade than bullets.

Sonics

bro

If Carol can't absorb Herzta Haeon, so what? She won't be damaged by it, she just won't absorb it.

On top of this, show me the tier-setter's resistance to sonics like the type Alita uses if Klaw's don't qualify, I'm not going to out of tier this ability because it's pretty obviously weak, it's just inapplicable to this match, my opponent is not arguing this ability in tier.

Skill

My opponent barely even tried to argue for Alita's skill, and instead tried to show Carol "doesn't dodge" as if that's remotely relevant, my opponent has shown scans for Alita dodging vastly slower than her, and has presented scans of Carol getting hit by people of vaguely comparable or superior speed to her, how is any of this relevant?

Then you try to downplay Carol's 'skill' again, with varying results

My opponent weirdly cherrypicks scans, if all that was needed was to show Carol can dodge more than Alita, that's even far more numerous than what's presented here.

Woah, look at these scans of Carol dodging vaguely fast things, and Alita getting hit by vaguely fast things, I suppose that would make Carol an unhittable ultra skilled monster versus Alita in this matchup by my opponent's argument.

Both our characters are the exact same speed, if you're trying to show Alita as someone who's capable of dodging all of Carol's hits while landing all of her own you clearly failed, posting vague scans of vaguely fast things hitting Carol is not going to cut it, posting cool tricks on enemies inferior to you is not going to work.

Conclusion

Nothing changes, Crim barely even argued against my win cons, Carol punch hard and win.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 13 '20

Ah vs Bee

Unaddressed/Conceded Advantages

  • Ah Gou with a single punch >> Killer Bee's durability, Ah Gou can simply beat down Killer Bee once the swords are gone
  • Killer Bee's swords aren't durable

Chakra Cloak/Physicals

ok

You've failed to quantify any degree the benefits the Chakra Cloak gives him, whether it's a 1.1x boost in power, 1.2x, 50x, 1.00001x, just saying 'he gets vaguely stronger' doesn't help me when his strength is not great regularly.

  • Juugo Scaling

I have zero idea why you think repeating what you said in R1 to my rebuttal is at all helpful.

  • Raikage Scaling

This isn't relevant to my argument.

Killer Bee and Raikage on the page before this are locked in a wrestling contest, they are on top of each other and pressing against each other, which ultimately does culminate in Killer Bee overwhelming the Raikage's inertia and sending him flying, but this is not a strike, this is applying constant pressure with constant leverage. Raikage powerbombing Sasuke is not.

Sure, the point of the scene is that Killer Bee is stronger, he's stronger in what literally amounts to lifting strength, if you're trying to argue 'he's narratively stronger' then lol, and again I stress Killer Bee not only fails to replicate close to anywhere the same damage as the Raikage feat you're scaling to, and Killer Bee himself has never replicated anything close to the Raikage feat with a simple strike. Cut in half, this obviously isn't doing a terrible amount to Ah Gou.

Zhui Ri slicing through an absolute gigantic tree and multiple houses with his swing (size for better context) is just clearly superior to anything Killer Bee's ever done with his swords, if Killer Bee can't get through Monochrome with his first slash, his swords will be destroyed. If Killer Bee even gets close to Ah Gou, his swords will probably be destroyed.

When Killer Bee gets close, Ah Gou hits him in the face and does a lot of damage, and then continues to punch him until he dies, Ah Gou is stronger under Monochrome and Killer Bee has zero feats for pain tolerance or any sort of endurance period.

Smelting Aura Arm

Your point does have some merit here, but it's still just outright wrong.

On top of this, the series does claim Ah Gou's arm is durable, and is durable because it's strong, and similar sources of battle-worthy Smelting Aura are durable because they are durable.

Ah Gou is also superhumanly strong and possesses inertia greater than an object of his mass would imply, hits from superhumans do not automatically knock him back why would his own, and even besides the arm absorbs the vast majority of the force of its punch, that still makes the arm extremely durable.

Monochrome

I have actually zero clue what you're even trying to argue here

Claim 1: "Ah Gou wouldn't open with Monochrome"

Literally why would he not, Ah Gou is aware he's in a life or death situation, it is the most overwhelmingly useful tool in Ah Gou's arsenal.

Claim 2: "The cutting power and monochrome doesn't really prove much it's not like he has to concrentrate Monochrome along the edge of blade, he could just concentrate it along his wrist and it'd effectively stop his strike. If he has strength that would it relevant it could be useful in some capacity."

bruh what are you even trying to say

I've shown Ah Gou blocking swordsmen more powerful than Killer Bee using Monochrome, from a distance away from his body simply by concentrating it as a shield in front of him, I've shown Ah Gou utilizing Dark Wall at melee range. This is extremely intuitive, Ah Gou blocks Killer Bee's swords, then shatters them. This isn't complicated.

I've also shown that even against people who are protected by auras that would allow them to resist Divine Power normally, cannot block Monochrome, Bee's Chakra cloak will not help him, he cannot get within range of Ah Gou without being under Monochrome's effects.

Naruto Still Sucks

Saying that tier setter has super humanly strong organs for being able to take impacts, but Bee doesn't is poor interpretation

But this completely ignores Kakashi's statement and the reason why the Gentle Fist is effective in Naruto.

It's stated by Rock Lee that ninjas and people who utilize chakra have a chakra network that runs throughout their bodies that protects the major organs; specifically, users of the Gentle Fist style target key points in the chakra network that then proceed to damage the organs which is why it's considered so dangerous in-universe.

If the organs were not protected by the chakra network, why would Gentle Fist users target key points in the chakra network instead of just hitting the organs directly.

Thing doesn't have a chakra network that protects his normal durability organs, he's just naturally tough, prove that of Bee, please.

Also the scan you presented wouldn't necessarily imply that organs aren't strong just that they cannot increase their strength

Which is just blatantly false, Rock Lee shows that the chakra network protects the organs literally two pages later, additionally 'chakra enhances the muscles' is the basis for all superhuman prowess in Naruto, you're basically saying "this is strong even though the thing that makes things strong in this universe doesn't apply to it". Goku and DB characters are strong because of ki, take the ki away and he's not strong at all, same principle, different verse.

Conclusion

Ah Gou can simply just shatter Killer Bee's swords, they're not tough or strong, Killer Bee himself has barely any strength feats of note, his Chakra cloak is a vague ass amp and his durability is just okay in the face of Ah Gou's overwhelming offense with nothing to supplement it. Ah Gou punch good oponment die

1

u/[deleted] Apr 13 '20

Yuma vs the Ben Grimm

Out of Tier

The level to which this character has been argued is utterly fucking ridiculous, how the hell does Thing ever beat him?

Thing's best durability is tanking the inefficient destruction of multi-story structures himself, but Crim decides to try and scale way the fuck above this and present his character as becoming massively stronger than the tier. This wouldn't be an issue if Yuma had some clear weakness compared to Thing, but he doesn't:

And then, on top of all of this, despite acknowledging the fact I'm running the tier setter, Crim posited absolute advantages that Yuma would explore in-character vis his seals, let alone in a bloodlusted scenario:

And then there are scans my opponent has not used, such as forming this gigantic crater in concrete by not even punching the ground directly, but by punching something else in just his 2x Boost form, implying he can execute this as 3.5 times stronger as normal relatively instantly versus the tier setter, or can at least gain distance using Bound, get up to 7x, and then blitz the tier setter.

Even if the seals wears off, Yuma can do this as many times as he wants with zero cost, Thing can do nothing about it.

To sum:

  • Yuma has been argued as grossly stronger than Thing
  • Yuma has been argued to be grossly more agile and faster than Thing
  • Yuma's durability has been argued to be at least relevant in the context of Thing's offense
  • Yuma has been argued to have multiple one-shot options versus Thing
  • Yuma can infinitely camp vs Thing

My opponent may argue TS Thing's skill can help him win, but Thing is clearly capable of performing at his best level versus an unskilled opponent, which Yuma clearly isn't.

Thing's endurance is the only possible means for Thing to win versus hyper-Yuma, but even then he's against an opponent who's hitting several times harder than him, who has the ability to amp their speed, and who has the ability to camp, regain energy, and continue an assault, with oneshot projectiles, it clearly barely matters, my opponent even states in his R2 conclusion that Yuma is not pressed for time.

This character clearly is not within the scale this tier exists, this tier is "can destroy buildings casually", your character scales massively above this even before the ability to boost his physicals and do a hundred other things.

/u/kenfromdiscord

Yuma's Physicals

I'm not going to argue as hard here because Yuma is obviously out of tier how you've argued, but your scaling is still far from watertight.

My opponent has now provided more evidence that Black Triggers are more durable than Border Triggers, but hasn't meaningfully quantified how much more durable, Thing still has zero issue with Yuma's level of offense outside of the absurd Rabit scaling and still clearly hits hard enough to hurt Yuma.

I don't believe Combat Bodies are all the same in durability, while there is a statement for it, it doesn't seem to line up with actual feats:

General Rebuttals

Chain

If the method by which Yuma can just restrain someone in the air with Chain is just attaching a Chain to someone from any wall I'm not even going to argue against that, that's just absurdly out of tier.

But thankfully I don't see why this is at all the case, the Chain seems to be projected from Yuma's body, and there also seems to be only one, Thing simply can just grab the chain, snap it, or overpower Yuma to drag him into melee.

"Angrir isn't Ben Grimm"

If Yuma used Chain on him before this, or simply got within range of Angrir, Angrir literally just putting hands on Yuma is instant incap.

Floors

The floors are collapsing because Thing, a weaker Thing than what I am using, is pounding on them, structure includes flooring, Reed saying he reinforced the structure still applies to the floor.

Even then, what the hell does this change, Thing is still being hit through multiple metal floors thicker than himself, unhurt, and rejoins the fight immediately, stop arguing against things you're not even really countering.

Using Multiple Seals

Don't see why this matters, real Yuma still lacks the endurance to take on Thing, you've posted 0 feats to suggest otherwise.

Lightning

Yuma moving fast does not counter my point that he cannot react to lightning, and my opponent did not address the fact Thing can charge his hammer with electricity to electrocute Yuma.

Conclusion

If you accept my opponent's scaling and arguments, Yuma has too many advantages over the tier setter and anyone else in the tourney to reasonably lose to anyone.

If you don't, Yuma clearly isn't that durable, clearly isn't strong enough to put Thing down in any timely scenario, has zero real endurance or ability to establish longevity, and should summarily be taken out in a few hits.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 13 '20

/u/Criminal3x

1

u/[deleted] Apr 13 '20

Conclusion

Alita vs Carol

  • My opponent pretty much gave up arguing physicals after the first response, Carol's are just so obviously superior

  • My opponent first tried to argue Alita was skilled, and after I showed Alita's skill amounted to 'cool tricks' he gave up, then tried to argue Carol just 'doesn't dodge' by posting vaguely fast people hitting Carol, never once establishing the difference of their speed and hers, when the very same argument could be applied back tenfold on Alita

  • My opponent tried to argue Alita's sonic would destroy Carol by posting her "being weak to sonics" as getting hit by fucking Black Bolt, probably the absolute strongest sonic user in all of fiction, then after I posted scans that Alita's sonics could be resisted by being durable no real counter was offered, only scaling to Klaw was attacked in the vaguest way possible

  • The one real turning point my opponent could have won on, Alita's sword, had half a dozen rebuttals by me in my first response, and then a weak counter offered by my opponent who addressed barely any of them in the form of trying to teach me physics, which would out of tier his own character and which barely made any sense in the context of superhuman flesh

  • Really, I don't see why I don't win, I've shown Carol can walk through any of Alita's weaponry, I've shown Alita's skill is overwhelmingly fake, I've shown Carol has better physicals. Pretty cut and dry.

Killer Bee vs Ah Gou

  • My opponent made no real counter to Monochrome, first they tried saying the Chakra Cloak would protect Bee from it, I debunked that, then they tried saying Ah Gou wouldn't use Monochrome, I debunked that

  • My opponent made no real address of my interpretation of Bee's physicals, trying to reclaim points I had already rebutted, or failing to adequately match my rebuttals on what I was actually saying, Killer Bee's best cutting feats are vaguely scaled up under tier feats vs. Ah Gou's defense, Killer Bee's two strength feats presented this entire debate were lifting strength and a slow, built up charge that does vague damage

  • Killer Bee's swords are not exceptional, they can just simply be blocked and broken by Ah Gou's Monochrome and Dark Wall, which I have shown to work on swordsmen stronger than Bee, and opponents more durable than the swords respectively, and once this happens I have already shown Ah Gou is just stronger and can just beat Killer Bee to death.

Yuma Kuga vs Thing

  • This is a case where my opponent clearly became afraid of Thing's physical advantage, to where they felt they had to take a roughly In Tier Hit, and then scale gigantically above it, while making claims such as "you (the tier setter) can never hit me, I can restrain you in the air, etc." and thus completely out of tiered themselves

  • If you do not believe my opponent's chain of scaling and random statements that would make Yuma completely unbeatable to the tier setter, which is already built on very flimsy evidence, then it is clear I win, Thing's feats are just better, and Thing has massively better propensity for taking damage in the long term as opposed to Yuma. I've shown Thing is strong enough to simply grapple Yuma to an incap, I've shown Thing's piercing resist is at the level of the tier, and I've shown his physicals to be overall superior.

My opponent made a number of claims this debate, several of which were barely backed up or given any real effort into disproving, and the ones that were attempted to use vague wording and physics terminology to try and escape from the main point, many points of mine were simply not addressed at face value, many points of mine were rebutted by simply repeating claims from R1 that I had already rebutted.

I easily win all 3 matchups.

1

u/Criminal3x Apr 14 '20

OOT Defense

This OOT shows a complete misunderstanding of what I argued and demonstrates an inability to think of effective counters against characters with a variety of attacks. The main assertion about strength also clearly shows the author of this OOT request doesn't understand how either of the relevant feats actually relate to one another.

(Bullet points go with the quote below.)

To start my opponent has no idea how good either the strength feat I or he presented are. He just reiterates my scaling a second time and says this.

"Thing's best durability is tanking the inefficient destruction of multi-story structures himself, but Crim decides to try and scale way the fuck above this and present his character as becoming massively stronger than the tier. "

He says the feat I presented is better but does not elaborate how. My opponent also describes Thing's feat as just inefficient but the gross misrepresentation, in that in that inefficient hardly captures it.

To put this in context, Thing is colliding with an individual and the result of their collision and explodes a nearby multistory structure. This means an incredibly fractionally amount of energy actually reached structure yet it still literally explodes. There are several layers of energy dispersal here the f. The first is through the direct collision of the individuals a significant amount of energy lost then you factor in the propagation of energy into the environment which is spherical in nature and as a result is means the overwhelming amount is lost (the building is only so much of the sphere). With each meter of distance from the structure significantly less energy is coming in contact with the building, now keep in mind, not only does the building take small portion of energy it explodes from it. Now keep in mind that this collision came from the result of bodily collision rather a punch of with a small surface area (something Thing can do). My opponent fails to explains how my feat is so much better that it warrants an OOT request.

  • And finally, my opponent argues Yuma can not only increase his strength by a factor of 1.4 past this by increasing his strength 7 times over, and can reach this level practically instantly

This is in context to a theoretical argument, that it happens over an unknown time period, I even used this scan to demonstrate there is clearly some limitations. I specifically argued for the idea of it progressing over time because the source material doesn't make definitive claim on speed. My opponent is clearly getting caught up in hypotheticals.

  • Yuma has been presented to have shields capable of no-selling building busting attacks, which could theoretically be enhanced even more by combining it with other seals

This is an argument presented in the same OOT request in which the individual shows Thing destroying a building as the collateral of his "strike".

  • Yuma has been claimed to be able to restrain Thing in mid air with his Chain, each chain capable of swinging a monster claimed to be the size of a school

As you can see clearly in the panel, it is bound to a wall, as you can see in the other scan Yuma is clearly holding seal and he's a pretty small guy. So if there's seal being bounded to a destructible environment or being held by a small light individual; then Thing a Large Man in a destructible environment clearly has some options.

  • or propel him away seemingly infinitely

Well let's see it's a stationary entity floating in space, so Angrir's inability to effectively deal with that is not grounds for OOT.

  • Despite knowing I am running the tier setter, Crim tried to claim his character has a projectile capable of penetrating Thing, and then continued to argue for it in R2

Thing is quite thick, and penetration does not mean death. Especially so in the case of an individual of Thing's girth. Also they're in an Ikea with varying visibility and multiple floors and Yuma clearly ask for visual aid in the scan. There is clear argument that can be made.

  • Yuma has been given a speed boost which allows him to move 6x faster than Thing with hyper mobility as an absolute advantage over the tier-setter, my opponent describes it as something "which would all but nullify [Thing's] ability to land strikes" in his R2 conclusion

It's linear so if hes going towards Thing he will continue to go towards Thing, even if he's going around Thing in a Pinball fashion he in order to make use it he would still likely have hit him at one point. He [Yuma] hasn't demonstrated the idea of hitting then immediately bouncing away very frequently. As far as the quote from myself, just argue he [Thing] isn't nullified. Force your opponent to demonstrate that bouncing (or whatver action) after immediately attacking is a reasonable character option and something they demonstrated the capacity to do.

  • And then there are scans my opponent has not used, such as forming this gigantic crater in concrete by not even punching the ground directly, but by punching something else in just his 2x Boost form, implying he can execute this as 3.5 times stronger as normal relatively

If I didn't argue something it's completely irrelevant regardless of whether I stipulated it out. The entire point is about how I argue the character not some hypothetical. If an individual considers a feat an outlier or invalid for the purposes of the tournament they're more than capable of making that decision for themselves and excluding it.

  • Even if the seals wears off, Yuma can do this as many times as he wants with zero cost

This is somewhat false he only has a certain amount Trion.

  • it clearly barely matters, my opponent even states in his R2 conclusion that Yuma is not pressed for time.

Neither is Thing, I mean it's not like Yuma has need to end fight as quick as possible but he hasn't shown a habit of "camping."

This entire rebuttal comes at the result of my opponents inability to think of viable counters to exploitable abilities and his application of hypothetical arguments and unused feats.