Clash of Titans Season 3 Round 2.

[u/KenfromDiscord]

Out of Tier Rules

For Out of Tier requests, Simply debate better than your opponents. The judges will judge the quality of both participants arguments into question and decide a winner based on that.

Battle Rules

Speed - movement speed and combat speed will be set at Mach 1, Combat and movement speed, with their reactions scaled down/up relatively. Speed boosts via abilities, however, are indeed allowed to make one surpass this base speed threshold.

Battleground:

Its SCP-3008. SCP 3008 is an huge space (Current measurements indicate an area of at least 10km2) designed to look like the inside of a regular Ikea store. The arena will be tall enough that the largest submitted character can fit comfortably inside. Combatants start 10 meters away from each other, and in a line spaced 2 meters apart from their allies. Every combatant starts each round being 'teleported' into the arena, knowing full well whomever they face down needs to die or be incapacitated in order for they themselves to advance and win and will do so, and with knowledge of their allies' weapons and abilities. All combatants begin without any weapons drawn or abilities active, hands idle at their sides, weapons holstered, and the moment they teleport in they can begin combat. All combatants are in-character for the tourney itself. No character can escape SCP-3008.

As a side note, the towns that have been set up as well as SCP-3008-2 are not present for the tourney.

Side side note, while combatants cannot exit the arena that does not preclude parts of the arena being torn off and used as weapons.

Combatants spawn in the very center of the Ikea.

Submission Rules

Tier:

Must be able to win an unlikely victory, draw/near draw, or likely victory against

Ben Grimm AKA The Thing

in the conditions outlined above; All entrants will be bloodlusted against The Thing, meaning they will act fully rationally and put down their opponent in the quickest, most efficient manner possible regardless of morality, utilizing any and all possible techniques/tactics/attacks if necessary.

For tier setter fights/OOT requests assume both Thing and your character are bloodlusted

Debate Rules

Rounds will last 5 days, hopefully from Tuesday until Sunday of each week of the tourney; there is a 48 hour time limit both on starting (we do not care who starts, you and your opponent can figure that out) AND on responses, AND ADDITIONALLY each user MUST get in two responses or else be disqualified. If one user waits until the very last minute to force this rule to DQ their opponent without any forewarning to their opponents or the tournament supervisors, they will be removed from this tournament, no exceptions.

Format for each round: both respondents get Intro + 1st Response, then 2nd response, then a 3rd response and closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. EACH RESPONSE MUST BE NO LONGER THAN THREE REDDIT COMMENTS LONG WITH A HARD CAP OF 25,000 CHARACTERS SPLIT BETWEEN THE THREE.

Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are determined by randomization. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa. First Round will be determined by coin flip.

Brackets Here

Round 2 will be

1v1 match ups.

Round 2 Ends Tuesday April 14th Midnight EST

Format for each round: both respondents get Intro + 1st Response, then 2nd response, then a 3rd response and closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. EACH RESPONSE MUST BE NO LONGER THAN THREE REDDIT COMMENTS LONG WITH A HARD CAP OF 25,000 CHARACTERS SPLIT BETWEEN THE THREE.

Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are randomized based on sign up order via an internet list randomizer. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa. First Round will be determined by coin flip, and as it is 3v3s, next shall be 1v1, and so on and so forth.

[u/fj668]

Thor vs Luffy

Lightning

If the judges look closely, they'll find that I never actually argued Thor uses his lightning. So you can give him a nice pat on the back for wasting your time.

Physicals

Luffy can hurt Thor

That's a big doubterino from me.

This means that a way stronger feat like this or Gear 3 will essentially one-shot Thor if it lands.

They never will. All of these attacks require a massive wind up. Thor dodges them or blocks them with his hammer. Thor's hammer being able to block unibeams from Iron Man which obliterate city streets or straight up vaporize ships. so if my opponent wants to argue "Luffy destroys Mjolnir" then he's OOT.

Luffy’s most barebones jabs, which my opponent describes as “not bad”, are far beyond this level

Yeah, they're not bad because these might actually be in the ass end of the tier. Yet it's not equal to attacks Thor easily gets up from.

and Luffy can chain countless of these jabs with a Gum Gum Gatling.

Keep in mind, this is what's being showed for Luffy's regular strength. A feat that could be replicated in Daredevil tier. These attacks don't do anything to Thor.

Thor gets absolutely demolished after being thrown into a stone wall.

I enjoy that you fail to mention that these giants are equal to Thor. So maybe y'know, it's not the getting thrown into a stone wall but rather getting wailed on by three people of equal strength to him.

This means Luffy’s similar feats of launching people large distances should effectively one-shot Thor.

This requires literal hundreds of feet worth of wind up. It will never land.

Thor’s best striking feat is destroying the top of a building by hitting Loki into it.

Pretending this feat didn't happen doesn't magically make it not exist.

Not only can Luffy tank his own hits,

One attack of his own left him noticeably injured. He was huffing and Luffy's strikes are just like, vaguely in tier.

Using Kizaru scaling

Alright, that's gonna be an OOT claim from me. /u/kenfromdiscord

The scaling my opponent is using is saying Luffy can take multiple strikes from Kizaru. This attack was done without Kizaru even making contact with the tree. He was dozens of feet away from it. (If Kizaru has stretch powers I don't know about, then take it for if he impacted it.) These trees also obscenely massive.

Let's do some quick maths here. In the last scan I showed let's assume the building right above Kizaru is 150 feet tall. It's probably bigger but I'm gonna give Coco the benefit of the doubt. It's 128 pixels tall, where as the tree is 506 pixels wide. THis means the tree has a width of around 600 feet give or take. It also has a similar height in the scan I posted, so we're going to assume he destroys what we see (There are numbers on the tree, but we don't see them from the angle shown so this is a low ball as he could have been destroying much more.) Putting this into a calculator this gives us 3 million tons for the weight give or take a few skyscrapers worth of weight.

My opponent is claiming that Luffy can not only survive, but take multiple strikes from someone who can destroy an amount of tree that is a literal order of magnitude heavier than the Empire State Building.

If we wanna be real mean, Kizaru's power comes from the fact that he can punch at the speed of light. The author is also clearly aware that the faster you go, the harder you hit. If Kizaru's foot weighs 200 grams and he punched at 99% the speed of light he'd be hitting with a force of 190 quadrillion joules. That's comparable to the Tsar Bomb at 45 megatons worth of TNT.

Even without calcs Kizaru literally destroys building with flicks of his fingers.

He's undeniably OOT, and so is Luffy for scaling off of him. The Thing will literally never hurt him.

---

Superman vs Zoro

Superman one Shots

My opponent literally proved my point right multiple times. Zoro himself claims this fall almost killed him. Zoro is also clearly hurt by Lucci sending him flying, which is a feat worse than Superman's. These are both feats my opponent clearly believes are indicative of Zoro's strength. Both of them show that Superman would definitely one-shot him. Also pain endurance doesn't matter when you get your head punched off so being able to withstand Luffy's damage means nothing. This splatters Zoro in one punch.

Zoro's ranged piercing can't hurt Superman

and stabbed clean through by a lantern construct, which means Zoro’s willpower sword constructs should be able to do similar.

Give me the number to your dealer. You're legitimately scaling between two completely different multiverses. This is absolutely invalid.

Furthermore, Clark has an explicit weakness to magical swords, and Zoro fights using a cursed sword.

Cursed doesn't necessarily mean magic. These also don't imply that the swords are supernaturally sharp. Just something vague my opponent tries to pass off as a feat.

and ranged slashes should have little problem cutting through Clark

This isn't piercing. That was clearly damage caused by a shockwave. He says "There's too much pointless destruction around the cut" so we don't know how much it actually pierced. Vague and thus unusable. Zoro's actual showings for ranged piercing aren't good and they aren't going to cut Superman who's piercing resistence is pretty damn good as I've shown.

Superman's ranged options

Implying Zoro is a normal person

Alright, this right here? This is my opponent saying that Zoro isn't going to use his ranged attacks to start out. Because a normal person can't cut from hundreds of feet away. This means Zoro is going to get into melee range and he's going to get his head punched off by Superman.

In the very off chance he does, it seems to be at a far lower temperature than his maximum.

And? That right there is a normal person apart from some form of ranged attack. Superman isn't going to vaporize some poor guy just to get him off of him.

Implying Superman won't use his heat vision

Show clark isn't indicative of comic Clark's mentality. He's much older and presumably smarter. He has no trouble cutting people down with heat vision.

Using lightning

Lightning is a bad example to use and only furthers my point. For one, Zoro is clearly very hurt by that attack. For second, Lightning isn't good evidence for heat resistance. It's only going to make contact with a person for a fraction of a second. Real life people survive lightning strikes and it doesn't even light their clothes completely on fire.

Superman will be hitting him with a constant beam of heat that melts through Zoro within a few moments.

Superman won't use his cold breath

As my opponent has shown, Superman will use his frost breath if lives are in danger. If Zoro shows he can cut through Superman and doesn't instantly kill him Superman freezes him solid and Zoro dies of the cold.

Superman's super breath

Even if it can't kill Zoro it can keep the battle at a range. If Superman can send a barn door flying miles when Zoro shows he'll hurt Superman in a melee he can just huff and puff and yeet Zoro away to keep using ranged to his advantage.

Big Brain Strat

If coco wants to argue Zoro could dominate Superman he has no reason to not hide. Why go head first into a fight when you can just win the battle of atrition? Sure, it'd suck waiting the 80 or so years it takes for Zoro to die of old age but if that's what it takes then that's what it takes.

Conclusion

Pretty much what I said last time. My opponent just provided some more feats to show the judges that I'm right.

Superman has a plethora of ways to kill Zoro from a range and he dies in one punch if he gets in hand to hand range of Superman. Big brain strat is still in effect so if Zoro shows he'll win Superman flies up out of Zoro's reach and waits for him to die of old age.

/u/coconut-crab I wanna go three rounds so you better shoot out the next response faster than the last.

[u/Coconut-Crab → u/fj668]

Response Two

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Yujiro vs Kojiro

Everything my opponent has said is bewilderingly untrue to the extent that I theorise if he were to argue the exact opposite as he did then he would have achieved an objectively perfect response.

Kojiro’s Sword

My opponent’s reasoning regarding Kojiro’s sword is extremely asinine and is built upon the assumption that the more weapon-like a divine object is the less powerful it is, which obviously makes no sense. Not only does my opponent falsely assert that it is my burden to prove that this isn’t true, but the evidence my opponent links is complete nonsense. The surface level mistakes are obvious:

• My opponent links Jack’s scissors cutting clean through a lamppost with zero resistance, and proceeds to make the leap in logic that this means the scissors are actually weak because we don’t see them cut through anything beyond that.

• My opponent links Jack trading blows with Heracles using a piece of a door frame, and then claims that this random chunk of wood, unlike a pebble or piece of clothing, counts as a weapon. My opponent logic is inconsistent.

• My opponent claims that a clock face is as blunt as the previously shown door frame, despite being a piece of glass with a sharp edge. I think my opponent intended for this to show that some blunt divine objects are stronger than others, but it instead shows that my opponent doesn’t understand the difference between “blunt” and “sharp”. Kojiro doesn’t fight with a blunt weapon so why does this even matter.

• My opponent links the pebble feat, and makes the claim that since it does the most collateral damage, and that it’s the “least weapon-like object”, the two must be linked. This is a classic case of correlation not equalling causation. The pebble is the only blunt divine object that collides with the surroundings, so of course it’ll be what does the most visible collateral. My opponent’s point is meaningless.

• My opponent links the cape carving through a building, and then asserts that since Jack cut less matter with the scissors, the scissors must be weaker. This is stupid. The reason the cape cut through more substance than the scissors, is simply because he slashed a wider area with the cape. It is true for the scissors, cape, clock face, and indeed Kojiro’s sword that everything they touch (barring other divine weapons) has been cut with no resistance, be it steel, buildings or flesh.

Granted, my opponent seems to have very little faith in this argument (and rightly so), as he immediately follows it up with a backup argument, that being that not all divine weapons are equal. Unfortunately for my opponent his reasoning here is just as shoddy.

• My opponent asserts that since the piece of door frame didn’t slice through Hercules like the clock face did, that the door frame must be weaker. This doesn’t make sense because the clock face is a piercing weapon and the door frame isn’t. Even if this was somehow true it would only serve to delegitimise divine blunt weaponry, which is not only irrelevant to Kojiro, but in turn disproved by the pebble.

• My opponent makes the Dragonball analogy of "Well he uses Ki, Super Saiyan Blue Goku uses ki, they should both be equal in power". I literally never argued this. In fact, I’m arguing that Kojiro is actually much more powerful because he uses a powerfully swung sword instead of waving around a piece of fabric.

My opponent keeps on asking for feats for Kojiro’s sword, seemingly failing to understand that me linking feats for inefficient objects with divine properties translates to an efficient piece of divine weaponry being way more powerful. If you really want to see Kojiro cut something that badly, here’s Kojiro slicing through Poseidon and his divine trident in one swing.

Yujiro gets carved like a turkey

Kojiro’s Skill

This is a similar story to the sword argument. My opponent uses poor argumentation to attack Kojiro’s skill and exaggerate Yujiro’s. My opponent repeatedly points to Yujiro’s physicals being too much for Kojiro to overcome, despite physicals not mattering because both characters one-shot each other.

• To start with an obvious example of my opponent being wrong, my opponent attempts to disparage Kojiro by saying the swordsman he’s stolen the styles from are featless. He seems to have ignored the fact that the same scan describes Kojiro as “unparalleled beneath the heavens”.

• Even more egregious of my opponent is his argument for Thousand Image Defence. His “counter” for Kojiro analysing matches from the word go, is that Yujiro will immediately blitzes him the instant the fight starts. This argument has a variety of problems:

  • It won’t even work: Kojiro can counter an attack he can’t even see after learning it “just a second ago”. My opponent admits that even at top speed it would take two whole seconds for Yujiro to reach Kojiro, which would be more than enough for Kojiro to figure out something as simple as a blitz.
  • Kojiro can just kill him. As far as I can tell my opponent is arguing that Yujiro just runs at Kojiro. Kojiro can slice through Yujiro, and he has a reach advantage with his swords, so why wouldn’t Yujiro just die?
  • This is literally something Yujiro never does. Yujiro doesn’t do go for a meme blitz on any of the swordsmen he fights, he doesn’t do it to Baki or Kaku Kaioh, or to literally countless other people he fights over the course of Baki. The only people in the series his RT shows him blitzing is a group of random dudes with guns.

• My opponent attempts to compare Yujiro seeing the cells in people’s bodies to the Thousand Image Defence. Yujiro having good senses isn’t at all comparable to Kojiro’s ability to perfectly predict well in advance an opponent’s exact moves

• My opponent shows Kojiro getting tagged by Poseidon as “proof” that Yujiro will easily destroy him. This obviously doesn’t factor in the fact that Poseidon is many, many, many times faster than Kojiro and still only landed glancing blows. Since Yujiro is speed equalised, he won’t be able to land anything.

• My opponent claims that Yujiro will use one of his fancy techniques, and that Kojiro has no way of analysing it because he would have never seen anything like it before. This statement is of course, flawed. For one Kojiro had absolutely never seen any of the variety of crazy attacks Poseidon does before, and he managed to counter it very well. It’s not like any of Yujiro’s techniques are more difficult to analyse than Poseidon’s: It’s not like Yujiro is literally turning into a dinosaur with his martial arts. Yujiro is not a wizard and all of his techniques are at a basic level doing things with his body, which Kojiro can analyse just fine.

  • This is also a further showing of inconsistent logic from my opponent: Is Yujiro going to go for an instant blitz, or is he gonna mess around with his techniques? My opponent seems to think both can happen simultaneously, which is untrue.

• The cherry on top of the bad argumentation sundae is the claim that Yujiro can steal the Thousand Image Defence. Not only has Yujiro never stolen a technique this complex in such a short time, Yujiro has no way of even knowing the technique exists considering it is contained entirely within Kojiro’s mind.

Yujiro’s arrogance

• The only reason Yujiro is said not to be arrogant is because nobody in Baki can hurt him. Since Kojiro can obviously hurt Yujiro, this just means that Yujiro is arrogant.

• My opponent states that Yujiro casually grabbing Motobe’s sword doesn’t count, because “Yujiro could kill Motobe in one hit”. This doesn’t make any sense considering my opponent is also arguing that Yujiro could kill Kojiro in one hit.

• My opponent argues that “Yujiro grabbed Musashi's sword because he underestimated him”. Why wouldn’t he underestimate Kojiro?

  • Once again, my opponent says that “Yujiro took the strike to the neck so that he could kick Musashi in the stones”. Why wouldn’t he do the same thing to Kojiro?

Overall, Yujiro doesn’t have a chance any way you slice it, or perhaps more aptly, however Kojiro slices it.

---

[u/Coconut-Crab → u/Coconut-Crab]

Luffy vs Thor

Lightning

My opponent claims that my arguments regarding Thor’s lightning are irrelevant since he never argued lightning, seemingly failing to understand that just because he says Thor won’t do something doesn’t mean he won’t do it. Thor uses his lightning in combat frequently. He’s called the God of Thunder for a reason.

My opponent has made no counter argument to Thor wasting time with a lightning attack, giving Luffy the time to wind up a massive attack and demolish Thor.

Physicals

Unlike the previous section, my opponent did attempt to argue Thor’s physicals. The issue with this of course, is that he didn’t do a very good job.

• My opponent says that Luffy won’t be able to land his absolute strongest hits because of windup. This could potentially be true if Thor didn’t have a habit of using drawn-out lightning attacks. While Thor is doing this Luffy could just windup something similar to this and BTFO Thor.

• My opponent, for whatever reason has decided that this feat is Daredevil tier when, as established in the same paragraph, all of these jabs should be capable of doing this. Considering, as my opponent failed to rebut, that Thor is visibly hurt by Piledriver, who’s best showing is badly damaging cars, Luffy should have little issue beating Thor down.

• If you actually look at the Frost Giant feat, you’ll see that Thor is left lying flat on the ground after being thrown into the stone wall. This is before the Frost Giants start clobbering him. We can see the crater left by the throw, and it clearly isn’t that big. With this as a baseline Luffy will destroy Thor.

• My opponent links this feat as if it’s good, or even at all quantifiable. I don’t see how vague shockwaves show that Thor has in-tier physicals. Thor, as my opponent portrays him has little means to harm Luffy.

• No rebuttal was offered for Gear 2

OOT Rebuttal

Given that my opponent seems to a big fan of comedy, it would be understandable to think that this OOT request is some kind of bizarre joke. Unfortunately, it seems that it’s serious. Allow me to show why none of what my opponent says is legitimate.

My opponent’s claims are based around Kizaru scaling (which is bizarre, considering my opponent linked it as an anti-feat in his first response, but I digress). Specifically this feat, where Kizaru destroys the base section of a vaguely large tree with what is presumably some kind of beam from his kick. For comparison, Thing can destroy huge buildings with shockwaves, and Thing is stated many times to continuously have gotten stronger since then.

What follows is some truly cursed feat interpretation, my opponent links a different tree than the one in the feat in question. My opponent then asks us to assume that the buildings surrounding the tree are 150 feet tall. This is bafflingly wrong. Kizaru is 10 feet tall, and we can see visibly that the buildings in the scan are not that much taller than he is. 150 feet is a massive overestimation.

It gets worse unbelievably, as my opponent then proceeds to pull out the pixel calcs. My opponent, for whatever reason doesn’t actually link said pixel calc, but even if he did it wouldn’t make it any less absurd to calculate Kizaru to such an extreme number, especially considering some of his other feats.

The next section of this OOT request is somehow even more mind-numbing. My opponent proceeds to apply the scientific principle of F = MA, and ends up scaling Kizaru to the Tsar Bomba. This is absurd. This is literally a VSBattles tier calc and there’s no way it can be taken seriously. It doesn’t make sense when looking at Kizaru’s feats. He’s obviously not kicking with the force of the Tsar Bomba.

My opponent concludes by saying that even disregarding his nonsense calcs, that Kizaru destroying a building with an energy blast is OOT, in a tier where casual building busting is the standard.

This OOT request in general is ridiculously ill-conceived. Not only does my opponent attempt to OOT purely on durability scaling, ignoring some of Luffy’s weaknesses like needing windup for his biggest hits and being generally stupid, we literally see characters weaker than Kizaru like Rob Lucci draw blood from Luffy with their hits. Rob Lucci is the same guy from Zoro’s durability feat, for reference.

Even if Luffy is slightly stronger than Thing, as per the tourney RT; “Thing is a generally very competent fighter and is capable of turning a physical disadvantage around to his favor”.

Luffy is absolutely not OOT and my opponent has done a sloppy job trying to prove he is.

Thor gets beaten up.

---

Zoro vs Clark

Zoro slices through Clark and Clark cannot kill Zoro. My opponent did not meaningfully showcase that neither of these are true.

Physicals

• Clark is not strong. Since my opponent can no longer use the feat that I showed to occur while he was amped, he has resorted entirely to this feat. This feat is obviously terrible

  • It’s a flying, two handed strike. Clark’s normal hits should be way weaker than this.
  • The feat is literally visibly worse than Zoro’s. Zoro is being sent through stone rather than glass and is being sent a further distance.

• Zoro can take several hits from Kaku, who matches Zoro in strength consistently in that scan. Zoro in an earlier arc was able to throw huge buildings.

Superman has a lot of trouble significantly hurting Zoro, because he is weak.

Piercing

• My opponent offered no rebuttal to Zoro being able to slice through Clark, and didn’t address any of the multiple piercing anti-feats of Clark I linked.

  • My opponent keeps talking about Clark’s “amazing piercing durability”, but this durability is pretty much entirely limited to bullets, and not getting stabbed by normal people with normal knives. Zoro is far stronger and should be able to replicate and exceed the feats shown above.

• My opponent claims that Zoro’s ranged slashes cannot hurt Clark by saying that this feat is a “shockwave”, which doesn’t make any sense, but even if we indulge it, Zoro’s ranged slashes can easily cut through the Iron Cloud, which is as strong as iron. This exceeds any piercing Clark has ever taken.

• This is ignoring the willpower constructs and cursed sword arguments. Both of these should absolutely be able to rip through Clark, as attacks similar in nature from the Smallville universe have been able to do so.

Zoro can easily cut through Clark, as his piercing exceeds Clark’s best showings of normal bullets and knives.

Clark’s ranged attacks

Clark’s ranged attacks are bad and Clark doesn’t use them all that often. My argument has not changed.

• My opponent’s arguments regarding heat vision are inconsistent. To directly quote my opponent “Superman isn't going to vaporize some poor guy just to get him off of him”. My opponent also states that Superman has no issues with mowing down “people” with his heat vision, the issue of course being that these obviously aren’t people.

  • My opponent claims that tanking lightning with a clear heat component is bad heat resistance because it only makes contact for a fraction of a second. This of course contradicts with the fact that in the rare occurrence Clark does use heat vision on a person, it’s also for a fraction of a second. The version of Clark that uses a constant, extended heat beam to destroy his opponents simply does not exist.

• Clark’s freeze breath is a similar story: He’s only ever used it on a normal person once, to stop him from killing a bunch of children and the guy was completely fine. Clark has never used his freeze breath on an opponent in 1v1 combat, so there’s no reason to assume he would here. Even if he did there’s no reason Zoro couldn’t flex out, since it’s normal ice.

• Clark’s super breath is still bad and he’s never used it on a living thing. Not a factor.

Dumb camping strategy

I’m still pretty sure this is a meme from my opponent, but Superman has literally no reason to want to run away until it’s too late. This is just blatantly something Superman would never do. Zoro gets stronger over time so he’s just making it worse for himself when they do eventually fight. If my opponent wants to argue that Superman just spends decades running away, then it’s OOT.

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Conclusion

• Kojiro outskills and cuts through Yujiro

• Luffy is just blatantly better than Thor and is immune to lightning

• Zoro slices through Clark and Clark can’t meaningfully hurt Zoro.

---

/u/fj668

[u/fj668 → u/Coconut-Crab]

Response 3 Part 1/3

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Yujiro vs Kojiro

AKA: Coco descends further into madness.

Kojiro's Sword

The whole long tyrade trying to debunk my point

Coco clearly doesn't understand that when your argument is baseless, another person's argument is equally as valid as their interpretation. There is evidence to support my claims that divine mundane objects are weaker than divine weapons and there is literally nothing for Kojiro. This entire argument, the literal only reason Kojiro can contend with Yujiro in the slightest, is if we scale two characters who have no relation to each other and say the one with massively lower showings is stronger.

So I repeat one last time. PROVE Kojiro's sword is strong rather than expecting the judges to believe the most suspect scaling ever showcased in a debate and until my opponent actually proves his claims that Kojiro's sword can pierce Yujiro I'm just going to nitpick what he said.

My opponent claims that a clock face is as blunt as the previously shown door frame, despite being a piece of glass with a sharp edge.

It very clearly isn't sharp. It's a few inches thick and oh so very clearly blunt.

It is true for the scissors, cape, clock face, and indeed Kojiro’s sword that everything they touch (barring other divine weapons) has been cut with no resistance, be it steel, buildings or flesh.

This is literally just a lie. Big Ben clearly has trouble cutting through Hercules.

My opponent keeps on asking for feats for Kojiro’s sword, seemingly failing to understand that me linking feats for inefficient objects with divine properties translates to an efficient piece of divine weaponry being way more powerful.

Except no it doesn't Coco. It just means that Jack's weapons have the feats you wish Kojiro had and that you should have ran him instead. Your assumption is baseless without you proving Kojiro's sword has feats.

I literally never argued this. In fact, I’m arguing that Kojiro is actually much more powerful because he uses a powerfully swung sword instead of waving around a piece of fabric.

Alright, so it's worse than I thought. My opponent's baseless assumption is that Kojiro, man with vastly inferior feats to Jack, is massively stronger because? Well because he said so.

So if judges are taking "Because I said so" as valid points in a debate I'm gonna state this for the record. All my characters win against Coco's without a doubt. There we go, I win because I said I did.

If you really want to see Kojiro cut something that badly, here’s Kojiro slicing through Poseidon and his divine trident in one swing.

Alright, thanks for providing Kojiro cut through a featless object and a person with no durability feats.

Yujiro still no sells Kojiro's assault unless my opponent can show actual feats of piercing for Kojiro's weapon.

Kojiro's Skill

He seems to have ignored the fact that the same scan describes Kojiro as “unparalleled beneath the heavens”.

This is ignoring that no one "Under heaven" has feats for their skill.

Yujiro can't blitz Kojiro

It takes two seconds for Yujiro to reach Kojiro. It takes 0.003 seconds for Yujiro to hit Kojiro assuming speed equalized for his normal punches. Vastly less than this as Yujiro is capable of massively amping his speed with Kaku's imagination technique.

Kojiro can counter an attack he can’t even see after learning it “just a second ago”.

Thanks for showing that Kojiro takes time to counter attacks faster than he can see. Yujiro's first strike kills Kojiro and Kojiro won't start out skilled enough to dodge Yujiro's massively speed amped punches.

Kojiro can kill him

Provide feats for Kojiro's cutting that implies he could cut someone as durable as Yujiro. Not just conjecture based on an entirely different character.

This is literally something Yujiro never does.

I explained this to you in PM. Yujiro has his crying demon back, it's absolutely in character for him to kill with a single punch. Upon unleashing his crying demon back this is what he did to Kaku and this is what he did to Doppo. These were done with no hesitation or fanfare after the crying demon back was used, Yujiro killed them both in one attack. Technically he didn't kill Kaku, but Kaku faked his death so that Yujiro's punch wouldn't actually kill him. Once he covers the distance between him and Kojiro he will then proceed to kill him with a single attack.

He doesn't do this to Baki

Yujiro opened up their fight with something that left Baki unconscious and then paralyzed for several seconds.

Or with Kaku Kaioh

Yujiro opened up THIS fight with the exact same technique he used to kill Doppo.

Yujiro having good senses isn’t at all comparable to Kojiro’s ability to perfectly predict well in advance an opponent’s exact moves

I compared their scanning, not their ability to predict. Kojiro's scanning is way better than it needs to be for this fight. Yujiro's is good enough to instantly analyze all of Kojiro's weaknesses upon sight.

My opponent shows Kojiro getting tagged by Poseidon as “proof” that Yujiro will easily destroy him. This obviously doesn’t factor in the fact that Poseidon is many, many, many times faster than Kojiro and still only landed glancing blows.

1. A glancing blow from Yujiro would kill Kojiro.

2. Yujiro is far faster than Kojiro due to being able to amp his speed.

For one Kojiro had absolutely never seen any of the variety of crazy attacks Poseidon does before, and he managed to counter it very well.

Kojiro is barely able to keep up. and being faster than you is something that can realistically happen in a fight.

It’s not like Yujiro is literally turning into a dinosaur with his martial arts.

Okay, it doesn't literally turn him into a dinosaur but it might as well. When you're going against imagination style you're fighting what is being imagined, not the person. Sukune legitimately thought that Baki's arms were the horns of a triceratops.

Yujiro is not a wizard

He ALSO had to ask if Baki was a sorcerer.

Is Yujiro going to go for an instant blitz, or is he gonna mess around with his techniques?

It depends. If Yujiro oneshots like he should then he'll blitz. If Kojiro somehow avoids this he'll use techniques he can't predict against.

Yujiro Hanma, he's literally the strongest

This has been bugging me, but I'm gonna add an additional point. Throughout Kojiro's fights he's never faced someone even 1/1000th as skilled as Yujiro. Sure, he can deal with speed, but can he deal with skill? Poseidon doesn't really count because his skill is featless, he's just "Vaguely skilled" where as Yujiro is skilled to a supernatural degree.

Yujiro is stronger than Xiao Lee. Which is a tecnnique so strong that it can negate the strongest of punches or bladed attacks This is a technique that legitimately negates all damage of anyone comparable to you. Yujiro Hanma is stronger than this.

Every martial art includes skill to the level of Kaku Kaioh. Someone who is so skilled that he claims even speed is irrelevent if you are skilled enough. Doppo Orochi who is so skilled he can create exact copies of his opponents while under mind control and block omnidirectional attacks with his bare hands People who are so strong the physical difference is so much that skill is no longer a factor in a fight.

All of this is lower than Yujiro Hanma, he's unironically better than all of this through sheer physical power. Creating perfect copies, something that Kojiro does is something Yujiro surpasses using only physical force and can instantly analyze. Skill to the level that it counters speed, something that Kojiro does, Yujiro counters it simply by being physically stronger than it. Blocking omnidirectional attacks, much like Kojiro does to stop Poseidon's 40 day flood, Yujiro trumps it through physical might. Everything that Kojiro can do can be countered by Yujiro being so physically strong that it's unbelievable. But to add on to being so strong that your skill doesn't matter, Yujiro is monstrously unbelievably skilled. Every skill I mentioned (Except for explicitly Xiao Lee which was stipped out, but he's still stronger than that.) applies to Yujiro.

So to really buff my point of "Yujiro copies Thousand Image Defense" I'm just solidifying that he's one step in the door already.

Yujiro's Arrogance

I say once more, it's earned.

The only reason Yujiro is said not to be arrogant is because nobody in Baki can hurt him.

Neither can Kojiro.

This doesn’t make any sense considering my opponent is also arguing that Yujiro could kill Kojiro in one hit.

I know, and Yujiro will kill Kojiro in one hit.

My opponent argues that “Yujiro grabbed Musashi's sword because he underestimated him”. Why wouldn’t he underestimate Kojiro?

I should have made this more clear but I meant the exact opposite of what Coco is saying. I'm saying that Yujiro grabbed Musashi's sword because Musashi underestimated Yujiro, not the other way around.

[u/fj668 → u/fj668]

Response 2/3

Kojiro's Character

I think it would be unfair to have Yujiro's character analyzed but ignore Kojiro's character and the effects it will have.

Sasaki Kojiro is unironically a loser who will give up after a single attack. Meanwhile Yujiro can paralyze people with fear from just being around them. He can shout at people to do things and they'll just do it. Yujiro can straight up make people injure themselves due to the fact that he's so far above them. So, like my opponent tries to argue, Kojiro will stand still paralyzed in fear and let Yujiro kill him.

Conclusion

Pretty much what I've been saying the entire time.

Kojiro is featless in regards to actual cutting power. Yujiro no sells all of his attacks. Something my opponent never refuted, but even if Kojiro can damage Yujiro he could just hold his blade in place with his muscles gripping onto his sword and yank them away from Kojiro.

Yujiro will one-shot Kojiro and he'll do it in a way he can't defend against thanks to his ability to attack faster than Kojiro could realistically defend against.

Yujiro can still just copy Kojiro's technique, so one last time everything that my opponent says applies to Yujiro except stronger and more durable.

---

Thor vs Luffy

Physicals

My opponent, for whatever reason has decided that this feat is Daredevil tier when, as established in the same paragraph, all of these jabs should be capable of doing this.

Because this feat IS Daredevil tier Coco. It's probably less. Luffy here is taking what is probably a dozen shots to not even fully obliterate a large wooden crate. Your evidence for "Luffy can chain strong punches" is Luffy chaining together his punches and performing at Daredevil tier.

Considering, as my opponent failed to rebut, that Thor is visibly hurt by Piledriver, who’s best showing is badly damaging cars, Luffy should have little issue beating Thor down.

I don't need to refute it. I've shown feats at a level beyond this. I've shown Thor easily getting up from strikes that send him through multiple massively thick concrete walls.

If you actually look at the Frost Giant feat, you’ll see that Thor is left lying flat on the ground after being thrown into the stone wall.

Yes, and Thor takes an astounding two seconds to get up from this attack. Clearly evident of a devastating blow.

My opponent links this feat as if it’s good, or even at all quantifiable. I don’t see how vague shockwaves show that Thor has in-tier physicals.

Once again Coco, pretending the shockwave feat didn't happen doesn't mean it didn't. Thor's shockwaves can send what should be several tons worth of snow flying and obliterate small buildings. If you can't see why something like this is in tier then I don't know how to help you.

OOT Reinforcement

Specifically this feat, where Kizaru destroys the base section of a vaguely large tree with what is presumably some kind of beam from his kick.

This feat is either OOT based on the size we see of the same types of trees or vague garbage thanks to having next to no scale. I'll get into this more later.

For comparison, Thing can destroy huge buildings with shockwaves

This feat happened in Fantastic 4 #299

Can't get a solid issue for this feat but Iri who made the RT claimed mid 100s.

This one is 177.

This one is fantastic four annual 17 which was between 257 and 258

This is the only one that was after the feat with She-Hulk and the "weaker" Thing you're referring to is still strong enough to send present Thing flying. The strength difference is negligible at best.

This is bafflingly wrong. Kizaru is 10 feet tall, and we can see visibly that the buildings in the scan are not that much taller than he is. 150 feet is a massive overestimation.

See, my opponent has completely forgotten that "Perspective" is a thing that exists. I suppose the moon is only a few inches across. This is what's called an optical illusion.

Kizaru destroying a building with a flick

See, destroying a building with an energy blast is fine. Destroying a building because you flicked your finger at it's direction is not fine.

Ultimate problem with the OOT rebuttal

See, the biggest problem with the OOT rebuttal is that there are two things that happen here. Kizaru is massively OOT and so is Luffy by scaling his durability to his attacks, if Thing can't hurt Luffy and Luffy has the (Supposed) strength to damage Thing then he's OOT because only one of them can be hurt by the other's attacks.

The second thing is that Kizaru's tree feat is fake and unquantifiable due to vague size differences. His other feats (Besides destroying a building with a flick) aren't impressive for the tier either. This isn't impressive, busting a large brick wall with one attack isn't good at all. Meaning that Luffy being noticeably injured by Kizaru makes him ass too.

And scaling to Zoro's durability feat isn't good because I've went into depth about how that feat sucks too.

Conclusion

Thor is stronger than Luffy is and he's more durable than Luffy is. He just flies over to him and pummels him to death with his hammer. Luffy is either OOT through Kizaru scaling or it's fake and it's terrible that he's hurt by someone as weak as Kizaru.

[u/fj668 → u/fj668]

Response 3/3

Superman vs Zoro

Physicals

The feat is literally visibly worse than Zoro’s. Zoro is being sent through stone rather than glass and is being sent a further distance.

My opponent once again goes with the strategy of "If I say this feat is bad, then it makes it bad." Henshaw ended up like, 7 or so stories higher than when he first made contact with the building. Buildings aren't made entirely out of glass, they have floors in the middle of them made of metal and concrete. He also clearly landed in an entirely different part of the city. Superman is sending someone through several stories of a building, projectiled a hundred or so feet, and then sent through even more stories of another building, AND THEN he is sent flying what should be hundreds upon hundreds of feet. This is a good deal better than just "Gets sent flying a few hundred feet after being hit into concrete."

Even if you still say "This isn't good" the impact is still more than strong enough to kill Zoro.

Zoro can take several hits from Kaku, who matches Zoro in strength consistently in that scan. Zoro in an earlier arc was able to throw huge buildings.

Lifting strength doesn't equate to striking strength. This shouldn't need to be said.

Piercing

I should say that the majority of this doesn't matter. If Zoro gets within striking range of Clark he gets splattered. Even if Zoro cleanly cuts Superman in half he'll be alive for a couple seconds after where as Zoro will just be a bloody stain.

My opponent claims that Zoro’s ranged slashes cannot hurt Clark by saying that this feat is a “shockwave”, which doesn’t make any sense, but even if we indulge it

In the scan Zoro literally says there's too much damage around the cut. This is either just a shockwave or entirely unquantifiable since we don't see the actual cut.

Zoro’s ranged slashes can easily cut through the Iron Cloud, which is as strong as iron.

Iron is weaker than steel. This is the effect of rifle shots on steel. This is Superman no-selling fully automatic fire from multiple sources.

Superman no sells Zoro's ranged attacks.

Superman's ranged attacks

Heat vision: "Superman won't use his heat vision." "Alright, so what if he'll use his heat vision it only lasts a fraction of a second." "It doesn't matter that Superman used it for a long period of time against the manhunters, they're not human." My opponent clearly isn't arguing Zoro as a normal human. He's arguing Zoro as someone who can kill Clarke from dozens of feet away and has strength comparable to him. You can't have your cake and eat it to. Zoro either shows he's a threat to Superman in which case Superman kills him with his heat vision or he doesn't show he's a threat and Superman splatters him with a punch.

Frost Breath: As I said prior, Superman is willing to use his frost breath if people's lives are in danger. This is something my opponent believes. If Superman is in danger against Zoro he's not going to just sit there and let himself be killed, that's stupid. He'll use his frost breath. And even if Zoro can break out despite having mediocre cold resistance feats it leaves him open for Superman to punch him and splatter him.

Genius Camping Strategy

This isn't OOT because The Ben Grimm doesn't have the navigational skills of an infant. The Ben Grimm is an accomplished pilot and is decently knowledgeable in science. He'll just find Superman. Also, added bonus. The Ben Grimm only ages one day every year. It takes The Ben Grimm 365 years to age a single year. Assuming The Ben Grimm is about 40 and lives to 80 (IN human years, not rock monster years) The Ben Grimm will have 14,600 years to find Clark AKA nearly 3 times longer than the entirety of recorded history.

Virtually immortal ties with virtually immortal. It could take The Ben Grimm a long time but realistically he'd eventually find Superman. Zoro turns a corner and gets lost in the endless maze of Ikea forever.

Conclusion

Super-Man one-shots Zoro from either a range or from melee range. All Superman needs is a single punch to kill Zoro instantly and his heat vision is too hot for him to handle.

Zoro is also not basically immortal like The Ben Grimm or Superman so Superman just hides, GG no RE.

/u/coconut-crab

[u/Coconut-Crab → u/fj668]

Response Three

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The octopus is a truly fascinating creature. To quote Wikipedia; The ink sac of an octopus is located under the digestive gland. A gland attached to the sac produces the ink, and the sac stores it. The sac is close enough to the funnel for the octopus to shoot out the ink with a water jet. Before it leaves the funnel, the ink passes through glands which mix it with mucus, creating a thick, dark blob which allows the animal to escape from a predator. The main pigment in the ink is melanin, which gives it its black colour. Cirrate octopuses lack the ink sac. Once they have been seen by a predator, they commonly try to escape but can also use distraction with an ink cloud ejected from the ink sac. The ink is thought to reduce the efficiency of olfactory organs, which would aid evasion from predators that employ smell for hunting, such as sharks. Ink clouds of some species might act as pseudomorphs, or decoys that the predator attacks instead.

I bring this up, because it apparent that my opponent has taken a leaf out of the octopus’ book, as their third response could be adequately described as a desperate, diversionary spray of obfuscating, murky gunk.

---

Yujiro vs Kojiro

Overall: Yujiro is unbelievably more skilled and cuts clean through Yujiro. Yujiro has major personality flaws that set him up for failure Both our characters one shot each other, so it’s a contest of skill that I win. My opponent is leaning heavily into presenting Yujiro OOT (will touch on that later).

Kojiro’s Sword

• My opponent has essentially debated himself into a corner where he is forced to argue the evidence-lacking, simply absurd position that somehow being more weapon like actually makes divine objects weaker.

• My opponent either cannot or will not accept the exceedingly simple concept of a piece of sharp, efficiently wielded divine steel being better at cutting than a piece of not sharp, inefficiently wielded divine cloth: A regular sword cuts infinitely better than regular cloth, and both are imbued with the same divinity through the Volund process, so why would (as my opponent presents) the cloth become better than the sword?

  • My opponent has no evidence supporting his claim, whereas I have the evidence of every divine piercing weapon in Shuumatsu cutting through everything they encounter, with divine blunt weapons as supplementary evidence for amplification of objects.

My opponent also, as he put it, “nit-picked” some of my other points. I’m going to disprove those nit-pickings in this section.

• “Clock Face isn’t piercing” – It’s clearly illustrated and intended to be piercing, considering it, you know, pierces. You have to be intentionally misinterpreting the feat to conclude that it’s as blunt as a door frame, like my opponent does.

• “The clock face doesn’t cleanly pierce Heracles” – Yes it does. it goes through him and keeps its momentum. That’s about as clean as you can get.

• “Coco doesn’t give evidence for a sword being stronger than cloth” – Speaks for itself.

• “Poseidon and his weapon are featless” – Poseidon’s trident is also a divine weapon. That means it’s also subject to the amplification of divine objects I talked about. Kojiro sliced through it.

Kojiro’s Skill

My opponent continuously handwaves and ignored my arguments in this section.

• My opponent’s entire win-condition is built upon a blitz, which I thoroughly criticised in my second response. My opponent didn’t rebut this, so his entire blitz premise is inherently flawed.

• My opponent’s logic is inconsistent in itself regarding the hypothetical blitz. His counter of my argument that Kojiro can counter an attack he can’t even see after learning it “just a second ago was Yujiro's first strike kills Kojiro and Kojiro won't start out skilled enough to dodge. The issue with this is simple: My opponent consistently argued that Yujiro’s blitz would take 2 seconds, and I showed Kojiro can counter attacks he can’t even see in one second. My opponent completely missed the point.

• My opponent uses the idea of the Demon Back to reinforce the idea of the blitz. This actually weakens his argument. We see Yujiro use the Crying Demon Back twice, and what does he do? Run in a straight line, or do a telegraphed, large windup hit. Kojiro will slice through either of these with ease.

• My opponent claims Yujiro can “scan Kojiro’s weaknesses”, but never points out what those weaknesses are. Meanwhile, Kojiro can scan Yujiro’s every action.

• My opponent claims that Yujiro is going to adopt the appearance of a dinosaur because of some flowery language from some sumo wrestler. This is dubious for fairly obvious reasons.

Kojiro is obviously way more skilled than Yujiro and his feats just don’t compare at all to Kojiro’s godly predictions.

Yujiro’s arrogance

• Yujiro being an arrogant asshole is one of his core character traits, and the fact of the matter is he’s started by grabbed every sword he’s fought.

• My opponent attempts to attack Kojiro’s character and his tendency to throw random fights. If you look at my stipulations however, I made sure that was not a factor.

Yujiro OOT Thing

First off, I’d like to point out DGL literally predicted this. Good job DGL. Anyway the foundation of this is my opponents hyper-wank of Yujiro in his “Yujiro is a Monster” section of his third response. To grab some quotations:

Yujiro is stronger than Xiao Lee. Which is a tecnnique so strong that it can negate the strongest of punches or bladed attacks This is a technique that legitimately negates all damage of anyone comparable to you. Yujiro Hanma is stronger than this.

Every martial art includes skill to the level of Kaku Kaioh. Someone who is so skilled that he claims even speed is irrelevent if you are skilled enough. Doppo Orochi who is so skilled he can create exact copies of his opponents while under mind control and block omnidirectional attacks with his bare hands People who are so strong the physical difference is so much that skill is no longer a factor in a fight.

All of this is lower than Yujiro Hanma, he's unironically better than all of this through sheer physical power. Creating perfect copies, something that Kojiro does is something Yujiro surpasses using only physical force and can instantly analyze.

If my opponent wants to present Yujiro as literally so skilled they can never be hit, can beat people massively above them, and can negate all damage and has the analysis of Kojiro, then he’s just OOT. Obviously, Yujiro is nowhere near this powerful or skilled in actuality, but this is how my opponent chooses to represent him and how he does so consistently.

---

Kojiro wins.

---

[u/Coconut-Crab → u/Coconut-Crab]

Luffy vs Thor

Overall: Thor sucks dick compared to Thing and Luffy in terms of physicals, and the “God of Thunder vs man immune to all electricity” aspect just exacerbates this. Luffy cannot lose this.

Luffy Damage Output

• Simple Jabs

  • Literally Luffy’s most minimalist, simple, quick bare-bones jabs are capable of doing shit like this. There’s no reason why it wouldn’t fuck up Thor, considering it’s a very similar launch distance and crater to this throw which messed Thor up, except the giant panther is obviously way heavier than Thor.
  • Since this is literally Luffy’s fastest, basic jab there’s no reason why each of the many punches in the Gum Gum Gatling shouldn’t have a similar power. My opponent keeps calling this feat “Daredevil tier” because Luffy didn’t turn the crate to dust or some shit instead of shattering it. I shouldn’t have to explain why this is unreasonable.

• Windup

  • Any hit with windup from Luffy is gonna eat Thor alive. Something like this or this is a one-shot.
  • Luffy will have minimal trouble getting this windup, as Thor has a tendency to use drawn-out electric attacks Luffy will no-sell.

This is an abridged version of what I said in my second response, and my opponent didn’t rebut any of it. It still stands.

Thor Damage Output

• Thor sucks in terms of damage output. My opponent seems to be basing his argument for his strength off of this feat. An ambiguous shockwave that displaces snow and tents (which my opponent dishonestly describes as buidlings). Literally awful.

Thor Durability

• The best feat my opponent has for Thor is this, which is not really that good for the tier in terms of damage output, and he takes a few seconds to stand up from it. Luffy should have no issue bypassing this.

• The vast majority of Thor’s other feats are way worse. Once again, Thor is hurt by the car-level Piledriver, and is out of action for a significant amount of time for this fight after being thrown into a wall hard enough to make a small crater. This is the level Thor’s durability should generally be assumed to hover around.

Luffy Durability

• Throughout this debate I’ve linked many examples of in-tier scaling for Luffy. Kizaru scaling, Lucci scaling, Moria scaling, he even scales to Zoro. Take your pick. Once again, my opponent did not meaningfully rebut all of this. It still stands.

Gear 2

• Still no rebuttal

OOT Reinforcement Rebuttal

You know that expression, “don’t put all your eggs in one basket”? It applies here.

My opponent uses a bizarre strategy of continuing to baselessly call my character OOT, while also claiming the OOT feats are actually under tier.

Ignoring the my opponent’s implication that I don’t know what perspective is, the facts of the matter are simple: You’re out of your goddamned mind if you think these buildings are 150 feet tall. We can literally see them in relation to the 10-foot Kizaru, and there is no way they’re close to 15 times his height. This is just feat interpretation at it’s most shady and misinformed.

Speaking of bad interpretation, my opponent still insists that Kizaru can destroy a building with a flick and not a blast, despite the fact that we can literally see the energy coming out of his finger in the preceding panel.

None of this is significantly above the Thing scans I linked the first time around. Characters like Lucci, who I’ve shown to do vaguely in tier hits in Zoro’s section, drawing blood from Luffy tells us that he’s almost certainly in tier, especially with Thing’s skill as a factor.

This OOT request is bad.

---

Luffy wins

---

Zoro vs Clark

Overall: My opponent has, throughout this entire debate failed to show how Zoro doesn’t just cut through Clark. He instead puts all of his stake into heavily flawed arguments of Clark one-shotting Zoro with his poor and inconsistent damage output.

Zoro Damage Output

• My opponent has still offered no argument for Zoro cutting clean through Superman in melee. This kills the Superman.

• His ranged slashes, while a little less powerful are still too powerful for Superman.

• Zoro is strong. He can throw buildings.

Clark Damage Output

• Clark is still built on a single strength feat. This feat isn’t great for the tier, and it’s a high momentum, flying, double-fisted slam. It has a ridiculous amount of wind-up. The reason my opponent hasn’t linked any regular hits is because they’re all bad. His normal hits are way below this feat.

• Clark’s heat vision is still bad. It isn’t hot enough to seriously hurt Zoro judging by Enel’s lightning, and he doesn’t use it on people, or at least not powerfully enough to be seriously harmful. By the time Clark figures out Zoro is a serious threat he gets chopped into pieces. Frost breath is the same story except he uses it even less.

Zoro Durability

• My opponent consistently presents his win condition as Clark punching Zoro. This is extremely implausible.
  • As established. Superman’s only feat comparable to this is with massive windup. His normal punches aren’t gonna be effective against Zoro based on that, which is bad news for him because Zoro is very effective against Superman.
  • Zoro takes hits from Kaku, who matches him in strength. This is obviously good considering that Zoro can throw buildings as shown earlier. My opponent attempts to counter this by saying lifting does not equal striking, but fails to acknowledge that throwing a building is a snap motion comparable to striking.

Clark Durability

• Clark is immune to knives and rifles. Things stronger than that have consistently cut through him as shown in previous responses. Zoro’s melee and ranged slashes both do significant damage to buildings as I linked in his damage output section of this response. Superman dies.

Camping “Strategy”

This isn't OOT because The Ben Grimm doesn't have the navigational skills of an infant. The Ben Grimm is an accomplished pilot and is decently knowledgeable in science. He'll just find Superman. Also, added bonus. The Ben Grimm only ages one day every year. It takes The Ben Grimm 365 years to age a single year. Assuming The Ben Grimm is about 40 and lives to 80 (IN human years, not rock monster years) The Ben Grimm will have 14,600 years to find Clark AKA nearly 3 times longer than the entirety of recorded history.

There’s no way anyone can read this and tell me it’s not bait.

---

Zoro wins.

---

Conclusion

My team is way better and functionally one shot my opponents team without being at much risk themselves.

---

/u/FJ668

[u/fj668 → u/Coconut-Crab]

Conclusion

So pretty much, I win.

Yujiro vs Kojiro

• My opponent never even refuted that Yujiro could one-shot Kojiro. So yeah, Kojiro dies to one hit.

• While my opponent did try his best to argue through the most insane scaling ever used in a tournament that Kojiro could damage Yujiro he never actually refuted my claim of "Yujiro just grabs his sword with his muscles". So even with my opponent's best case scenario if Kojiro tries to engage and does land a hit on Yujiro his swords will be stopped and either thrown away or the mistake will lead to a counter attack from Yujiro that one-shots.

• To reiterate once more. My opponent's scaling is dumb and doesn't actually work so Yujiro no sells Kojiro anyways.

• Kojiro has never shown the ability to ever deal with things that he couldn't predict and Yujiro has many techniques that would be classified as this. Imagination style, muscle vaporization, dinosaurs in general are all things Kojiro doesn't know exist therefore couldn't counter.

• It's both canon AND never refuted by my opponent that Kojiro takes time to deal with attacks massively faster than him. Yujiro can do this by amping his speed with imagination. He blitzes Kojiro.

• He had no counter for when I brought skill up in a fight and rather made a weak OOT claim. Kojiro only has evidence he can deal with extreme speed, not extreme skill.

• He had no counter for Kojiro being an objective loser who gives up after one attack. So Kojiro stands there paralyzed in fear and Yujiro kills him with a free hit.

Thor vs Luffy

Overall this debate was just one of "Who's stronger and who's more durable" and my opponent never really showed why Luffy would be able to outmuscle Thor. The feats I showed for Thor are all a good deal above the simple strikes that Luffy performs, only the ones that require obscene amounts of wind up that Thor could just dodge would do actual damage. Meanwhile I've shown in depth that Thor's strikes should be more than capable of harming Luffy thanks to what he's shown.

In short, Luffy weak Thor strong.

Superman vs Zoro

Pretty much just what I've been arguing the entire time. Zoro's feats of durability are all being massively hurt by attacks weaker than what Superman could perform. He also has no feats that would imply he could survive against Superman's heat vision, rather arguing "Superman would rather die than use this technique that would be an auto-loss for Zoro." Same with frost breath, it would put Zoro at a massive disadvantage so he'd rather argue "Superman would rather die than use this technique" than provide feats that Zoro would resist it. Zoro's ranged cutting also isn't strong enough to beat out Superman's piercing durability so he'd have to engage in melee range where he'd be promptly one-shotted.

In short, Superman splatters Zoro.

/u/Coconut-Crab

[u/fj668 → u/Coconut-Crab]

OOT Defense

I'd like to say Coco is a hypocrite for making this claim. This entire time he's been arguing that Yujiro could never hit Kojiro despite the fact that Yujiro is massively more skilled than the TS. Either way, what he's saying boils down to "No shit, I know what I said."

If my opponent wants to present Yujiro as literally so skilled they can never be hit

Never said this. I said that Yujiro has skill that can counter a speed gap. This doesn't translate to "Can never be hit". Every technique has it's limits, Kaku Kaioh LITERALLY perfected martial arts. Yujiro still beat him due to a physical advantage.

can beat people massively above them

Once again my argument is so beyond my opponent he couldn't understand what it meant.

"People who are so strong the physical difference is so much that skill is no longer a factor in a fight."

What I'm saying here is that Yujiro is stronger than a person who is so strong skill doesn't matter. The argument here is "Yujiro is stronger than skill" not "Yujiro can fight people massively stronger than him"

and can negate all damage

This is my sign up post.

"Can't use Xiao-Lee" This is me stipulating out the technique that allows Yujiro to negate damage. (Mind you, also not ALL damage. If it negated all damage Yujiro wouldn't be able to beat Kaku.)

"Yujiro is stronger than Xiao Lee." This is me saying that Yujiro is STRONGER than this technique, not that he is allowed to use it.

And yet my opponent still thought "Yup, Yujiro has Xiao Lee."

has the analysis of Kojiro

Didn't say that either. I said that Doppo can also create copies of his opponents. There's clearly a difference between predicting over a dozen battles in a few moments and recreating a single fight as it happens. This was used to say "There are techniques similar to Kojiro's in Baki, Yujiro knows all of them and should thus be able to copy Kojiro's."

Overall just a ton of pointless drivel from my opponent. Half of it is lies the other half is my opponent not knowing to read what I said.