Clash of Titans, Losers Round 3

[u/KenfromDiscord]

Out of Tier Rules

For Out of Tier requests, Simply debate better than your opponents. The judges will judge the quality of both participants arguments into question and decide a winner based on that.

Battle Rules

Speed - movement speed and combat speed will be set at Mach 1, Combat and movement speed, with their reactions scaled down/up relatively. Speed boosts via abilities, however, are indeed allowed to make one surpass this base speed threshold.

Battleground:

Its SCP-3008. SCP 3008 is an huge space (Current measurements indicate an area of at least 10km2) designed to look like the inside of a regular Ikea store. The arena will be tall enough that the largest submitted character can fit comfortably inside. Combatants start 10 meters away from each other, and in a line spaced 2 meters apart from their allies. Every combatant starts each round being 'teleported' into the arena, knowing full well whomever they face down needs to die or be incapacitated in order for they themselves to advance and win and will do so, and with knowledge of their allies' weapons and abilities. All combatants begin without any weapons drawn or abilities active, hands idle at their sides, weapons holstered, and the moment they teleport in they can begin combat. All combatants are in-character for the tourney itself. No character can escape SCP-3008.

As a side note, the towns that have been set up as well as SCP-3008-2 are not present for the tourney.

Side side note, while combatants cannot exit the arena that does not preclude parts of the arena being torn off and used as weapons.

Combatants spawn in the very center of the Ikea.

Submission Rules

Tier:

Must be able to win an unlikely victory, draw/near draw, or likely victory against

Ben Grimm AKA The Thing

in the conditions outlined above; All entrants will be bloodlusted against The Thing, meaning they will act fully rationally and put down their opponent in the quickest, most efficient manner possible regardless of morality, utilizing any and all possible techniques/tactics/attacks if necessary.

For tier setter fights/OOT requests assume both Thing and your character are bloodlusted

Debate Rules

Rounds will last 5 days, hopefully from Tuesday until Sunday of each week of the tourney; there is a 48 hour time limit both on starting (we do not care who starts, you and your opponent can figure that out) AND on responses, AND ADDITIONALLY each user MUST get in two responses or else be disqualified. If one user waits until the very last minute to force this rule to DQ their opponent without any forewarning to their opponents or the tournament supervisors, they will be removed from this tournament, no exceptions.

Format for each round: both respondents get Intro + 1st Response, then 2nd response, then a 3rd response and closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. EACH RESPONSE MUST BE NO LONGER THAN THREE REDDIT COMMENTS LONG WITH A HARD CAP OF 25,000 CHARACTERS SPLIT BETWEEN THE THREE.

Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are determined by randomization. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa. First Round will be determined by coin flip.

Brackets Here

Determined by coin flip, the third round shall be:

3v3 Team Melee

Round 3 Ends Saturday May 9th at 12 Pm EST

Format for each round: both respondents get Intro + 1st Response, then 2nd response, then a 3rd response and closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. EACH RESPONSE MUST BE NO LONGER THAN THREE REDDIT COMMENTS LONG WITH A HARD CAP OF 25,000 CHARACTERS SPLIT BETWEEN THE THREE.

Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are randomized based on sign up order via an internet list randomizer. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa. First Round will be determined by coin flip, and as it is 3v3s, next shall be 1v1, and so on and so forth.

[u/EmbraceAllDeath]

Clash Of Titans Round 5 ConKluhsion

• Pikachu shocking everyone with thunderbolt is the primary win con, and it works on Harpy, Toriko, Int Hulk, or any other Hulk because of its wattage/current and heat components, especially when Pikachu's foes will be wet from Greninja's clones' water shurikens tagging them.

• Greninja tagging people with water shurikens at range is a secondary win con, and it works on Harpy or Toriko

• Luke Cage hurting everyone with blunt force is a tertiary win con that works on Harpy, Toriko, or Hulk.

• Wolf can't win with Hulk

  • Hulk dies to electricity, either before or after he transforms
  • Hulk's jumping is ineffective in the IKEA
  • Hulk can't transform into Savage Hulk
    • Banner's personality keeps Savage Hulk under control when Banner is in control, Wolf lacks scans proving otherwise
    • When confronted with a specific scenario where an antagonizing side including Luke Cage has pushed for killing and has hurt Hulk, Savage Hulk has turned into Kluh 100% of the time. Kluh is monumentally weaker than any Hulk form
    • Wolf has scans showing Hulk gets stronger when angrier, but not Banner (as a personality) transforming into Savage Hulk when saddened/angered
  • Int Hulk is just weak

• Wolf can't win with Harpy or Toriko, as they get incapped by thunderbolts and shurikens at the start of the match.

[u/xWolfpaladin → u/EmbraceAllDeath]

As this entire debate has essentially always been the discussion of "Can Hulk get angry" and "Can Hulk hit", my final response will attempt to

• Re-contextualize my previous claims in the context of the entire debate
• Attempt to make my primary points clearer
• Attempt to bypass the bias implicit in any given debate to not only directly address the judges, but to directly address the flaws my opponent has made.

Prelude

I'd like to start off with no, this isn't some Guy-esque distraction from the debate. I'll try to keep this brief.

I do not enjoy an attack of character. I think that they are generally irrelevant, and often detract from the points that the user is making. I think they annoy judges. I would attempt to avoid an attack of character even if only to avoid weakening my own points. In this case, however, I genuinely and truly believe that many of the claims on the specific nature of Hulk are so flawed that they can actually only be considered in the context of someone who does not know enough about a given subject to understand how wrong they are. The reason I address this directly and not the actual feats in the discussion is because while I believe that feats can be interpreted in much more of a variety of ways, there are canon facts that objectively exist about characters. The most relevant of these is timeline.

• The Hulk forms my opponent describes don't exist when my Hulk does. For example, 'Kluh' has approximately 3 appearances, in one event, and never before or again. He only appears in the event of AXIS (2014), and only exists that way because of a telepathic personality inversion that made everyone act out of character. Something that turned heroes into sociopaths and sociopaths into heroes. The fact that my opponent not only genuinely uses this as an example of what Intelligent Hulk from 1985 would turn into, but acts as if attacking this is some disagreement of interpretation, should put literally every claim they make into doubt.

The other claims I consider to be a more acceptable misunderstanding in the context of general ignorance, so I will cover them in the tone of a normal response.

Additionally, I would also like to address the jokes I made in round 2. While these are jokes, intended to be read as jokes, to primarily illicit humor, I do not consider them fully irrelevant to my response. The claim that Xemnu created Axis Kluh is as much a waste of time as Classic Hulk turns into Kluh, and I in all honesty, as the user and not the debater, consider them equally valid. Additionally, the insect point was a vague complaint at the dissection of irrelevant points in the face of one overwhelming win condition. I largely argued with my opponent on issues like Luke Cage to expose a fundamental issue I had with the logic my opponent uses in relation to my own characters, not because I think Luke matters even a little bit, for example.

---

fuck formality all my homies hate formality

• Banner/Hulk love Betty and become enraged upon her death, which makes him vastly stronger.
  • Intelligent Hulk does not have the mental blocks that caused him to block out his transformation in later appearances.
  • Kluh isn't real. "Hulk loses because he turns into Kluh" has as much validity as "Hulk loses because he farted and pissed and shitted and camed in his pants."
• My opponent's claims about Hulk are misinformed and unreliable, and an attempt to re-contextualize them as a difference of interpretation can be showcased to be wrong even late into the third response, with additional objectively false claims.
• Hulk is frequently betrayed and frequently sad.
• My opponent lacks credibility on essentially every major point of contention.
• There is not a single given example of Pikachu ever opening with electricity equivalent to his best feats with the intent to kill
  • Pikachu at full strength will not kill Classic Hulk regardless.
• My opponent has generous definitions of antifeats and generous definitions of "no sell" or "take" for her own characters

Point 1 - Hulk vs Your Team

Pikachu vs Murdering People

• My opponent's entire win condition unilaterally rests on the single factor of Pikachu murdering Hulk so quickly that he has no idea that Betty has been hurt. Despite this, my opponent has provided no example of the extremely specific wording they use of vaporizing skin, organs, or anything even vaguely immediately lethal. Pretty much every single instance of Pikachu using electricity ever shows zero characterization that implies his opening blast is anything even resembling full strength. Based on actual instances, it is extremely likely that Pikachu opens with the electricity to incap a tall person (Toriko and Harpy are in the range of 7 feet) and attempts to zap them into unconsciousness. This will put down Betty first, and trigger Hulk in every possible scenario, because he objectively has the most electricity resistance present by to attacks in the tier of "knocking out big humans".

• Pikachu is overwhelmingly likely to attempt a KO before literal murder, which always leads to Betty being taken out first

  • Pikachu has never opened with an attack that vaporizes his enemies. The attacks he demonstrates versus actual opponents are sufficient to put down Betty, because even if you highballed her electrical resistance due to her size, Pikachu still opens with blasts capable of knocking out groups of people, but his blasts are consistently survivable by things with absolutely no feats indicating resistances whatsoever beyond a vague assertion of normal humans generally having super-durability.

• Pikachu's "Thunderbolt" is so totally divorced from how lightning actually acts when it used as an attack I'm not sure it's even intended to deliver a charge to people beyond a vague cartoonish shock in the same line of Wil-E Coyote using dynamite or a taser, because again, literally every single instance of it interacting with enemies can only be defended with "Maybe they're secretly A-tier with no evidence"

  If Pikachu doesn't provably use enough energy to vaporize Hulk, it doesn't matter if he CAN generate that energy, what matters is IF he will, and he has never displayed this lethality against opponents. Pikachu has zero examples of opening on sentient targets with full power blasts that will literally vaporize them or outright murder them, and the primary example of it being used leaves normal humans completely fine and is accomplishing a secondary goal.

To support the previous points, Pikachu is literally being commanded by a 14 year old child.

Hulk doesn't even need to meaningfully withstand the electricity as he would in the context of a normal 1v1, he has to not be dead, Pikachu has repeated examples of his blasts taking enough time that Hulk can react to what is happening versus enemies who display the grand electrical resistance of approximately zero, unless these cops have sunglasses capable of """withstanding the heat capable of vaporizing stone""" it's more likely that Pikachu starts weak his blast weak and slowly gets stronger, because again

• Takes a long time vs cops
  • takes a long time vs monky
  • versus some birds, now imagine if one of those birds was red bird's wife and he become exponentially stronger with the conditional release of his darkest urges and was also mountain tier and gained vastly highest resistances

Any situation in which Hulk is dying has Betty dying first, and no feat provided shows that Pikachu will use his full energy so quickly that Hulk will not be able to even react to it, and you have never, ever, at all in this debate demonstrated any example of Pikachu instantly incapping or vaporizing anyone with meaningful electrical resistance. Like, if Pikachu or Ash do something like "start with the minimum amount of electricity and ramp up so as to take them out" or even just start with something that would killa big man like Toriko instead of trying to LITERALLY VAPORIZE them, Betty is literally always going to die first, Hulk will literally always get mad, Hulk's circumstance is something that will always turn him into Savage Hulk. Every single claim about my opponent's win condition directly lies on the presupposition that if a thunderbolt hits Hulk even a single time he dies instantly with 0 time to react, and they have not even once meaningfully addressed what will happen if it doesn't outright instantly kill Hulk, which it does not.

[u/xWolfpaladin → u/xWolfpaladin]

Hulk jumps good

• Hulk is outrun by General Ross
• Hulk is outrun by Betty, and the example of him outrunning her she is badly injured in
  • The other travel speed feat isn't provably not a jump/outlier
• Previous example
  • Hulk jumps can overtake rockets with velocity exceeding mach 30, Hulk is at least mach fast to sub 20 mph running speed
  • Previous "Hulk blitzes people as fast as him"

Hulk can also jump straight

• Hulk jumps at a 180 degree angle
• Hulk overtakes two cars driving towards each other while travelling in a straight line before they can move a significant distance, breaking apart the claim of "hulk can't jump fast to blitz enemies"
• Hulk changes direction at a sharp angle while overtaking an ICBM

Most of the "anti-feats" here are Pikachu incapping as opposed to killing other beings with his electricity. These feats do not disprove Pikachu's strength, because humans and Pokémon are ridiculously durable and normal, and hence the electricity doesn't vaporize them or fry their organs

• These humans take a full on blast from Pikachu's "massive metal vaporizing" heat and electricity, yet it fails to even singe them, burn their clothes, or really do literally any of the things that should be happening if my opponent's major claims are true

It is far more likely here that Pikachu doesn't open literally every fight with energy sufficient to vaporize someone with electric durability far above a normal human.

The supposed instances of maximum energy are insufficient to defeat Classic Hulk.

• There isn't even heat demonstrated in this attack, it breaks like it's being punched by force, which Pikachu's blast is, and creates a cloud of debris dust, as opposed to glowing smoke particles
• Bursting apart water into steam is also not provably vaporizing
• ???
• This is a small amount of water being hit with force
• In absolutely no sense is this overpowering an electrical plant, this is like causing a brown out on the light breakers
  • literally every singular instance versus actual enemies

Hulk cares more about Betty than anything else

• Hulk cares more about Betty than anything present, including his own safety. The claim that Hulk's "instincts" act as Spider-Sense is both unsubstantiated and questionable. There is no example of Hulk being overwhelmed by danger from multiple sources, there are very clear examples of hyper-focus on Betty and his allies (previous).
  • Hulk acting on instinct acts like a savant, capable of disinfecting wounds and creating fire

"Telepathy, empathic rapport, instinct... words. Only words. They mean nothing to Hulk... He knows now that Betty is in great danger, how he knows is irrelevant."

• Notice Hulk being faced with multiple enemies and caring only for Betty
• **Toriko firing AoE knives makes 1HP clones irrelevant, Luke is a non-threat, Betty gets hurt by Pikachu so Hulk jumps at him and kills him in one hit

Hulk Smashes Your Team

https://i.imgur.com/a7ZktNN.png

https://i.imgur.com/l39oRSY.png

• Modok's beams are telepathic, heat, and force. Being caused pain by 3 damage types is not an antifeat, and the beams fail to put him down.
• Hulk doesn't react to a blast beyond moving and then immediately retaliates
  • But this is "no selling"
• Hulk "is hurt" by heat that melts concrete
  • Luke Cage "takes" the blow
• Hulk takes a blast that VAPORIZES a semi-truck before it can reach black bolt and murder him with molten slag (it would need to be vaporized both by the text box and by the narrative) when Hulk throws objects with orbital velocity (mach 30+), this is vaporizing in less than milliseconds, none of your feats have this kind of objectivity of vaporization no proof of speed, and this blast literally could not stop a far weaker Hulk than the one here.
• Hulk taking his surface area doesn't matter when his surface area is still far eclipsing and completely eradicating multiple miles of complex into fine red smoke and the beam is being delivered with about a Hulk's worth of surface area to begin with
• Hulk is taking a sustained blast of a million volts of lightning, the only reason he's incapped is because of the magneto-spheres, and eventually after being stuck there he is knocked out, not even remotely an antifeat for "Hulk jumps at you once and you fucking die"
• Thor's summoned lightning/marvel lightning uses a sustained blast to fail to take Hulk out to in a far weaker form that is specifically weaker to electricity
• Blip isn't affected by electricity, he's affected by being grounded, this isn't a feat of specific scale when we don't see the full destruction. The author making a deliberate decision of the villain stating what he is using against Hulk has not been discredited, especially when these statements are theoretically in line with a "very angry has been fighting for a while hulk", there's no real evidence against it being replicated here.

Point 2 - Hulk is Hulk

Kluh doesn't exist

• The argument that Xemnu created Kluh is equally as asinine as the argument that a Hulk from 1982 is going to turn into something that only existed because of the inversion event in 2014 caused by telepathy. The fact that Kluh has been brought up more than once as a genuine possibility is embarrassing.

• Hulk is frequently betrayed by his friends, it is embarassing to claim otherwise.

  • Here are 10 examples of people betraying Hulk, including his oldest friend Rick, or even Betty.
  • Here's Classic Hulk attacking Luke Cage and not caring
  • Hulk being betrayed by his allies is what caused Worldbreaker Hulk, the strongest Hulk form to ever exist, to form, he didn't turn into Kluh

Intelligent Hulk doesn't turn into Savage Banner

• 90% of the work in progress Hulk chart that you stole from someone who is more informed than yourself is completely irrelevant to the match, who was asking me if I agreed.

• Professor Hulk isn't Bruce. He is an amalgamation of experiences that represent Bruce's adulthood.

I used the Professor Hulk quote because it is widely the most iconic Betty death, but Betty dying in the same arc didn't cause a regression into Savage Banner, because they were still in the old dynamic, such as in the Hulk I am using now, what you are using doesn't matter and is overly specific.

• Banner thought that Hulk had killed his wife and he still didn't turn into Kluh

Professor Hulk has his own fears, own experiences, and own mental breakdown that caused him to turn into Savage Banner. Professor Hulk is who Bruce wishes he could be, and seeing Betty died caused that to shatter into pieces, and the fear that Samson had instilled caused Savage Banner, and due to being unable to stop the mental transformation, Professor Hulk caused his body to change physically. Bruce won't try to stop the transformation here; he wants to win, and he's really going to want to murder you. * Savage Hulk when confronting Abomination, who had killed Betty, fucking destroys him

Because Intelligent-Hulk is not a merged personality, he is simply Banner, his severe anger will turn him into Hulk.

Normal Johnny does, and it's a massive anti-feat because Asbestos is ridiculously easy to affect compared to what Johnny does regularly.

We don't know how strong Asbestsos is in Marvel, Human Torch is stronger or equal to Tier!Torch and his nuclear tier nova blast could incinerate Tier-Thing.

Pikachu feat 8 isn't a valid anti-feat. We don't know how strong lightning is in Pokémon

So it defaults to normal lightning. Thankfully, Marvel lightning is strong enough to vaporize a mountain of meat taller than the Hulk, so essentially every instance of Hulk vs lightning such as Thor by your own logic is much better.

While I only half-consider this point, I think it's clear that Pikachu's bolt in actuality acts completely different from lighting, but the actual wattage is intended to be comparable to normal lightning by the statement, pretty much every single Character Rant my opponent linked had people complaining about pokedex statements being too strong, Hulk can provably tank normal lightnin.

[u/xWolfpaladin → u/xWolfpaladin]

Rebuttals that I struggled to include but needed to

No, this is Devil Hulk, who is a manifestation of Banner's childhood trauma in the chart above. This doesn't indicate Banner becomes savage

This is Savage Hulk. Previous comics explain this. You are ignorant.

This pertains to Savage Hulk's mind, and isn't relevant to Banner.

Hulk is Banner and Banner is Hulk. ^{Or is he both?}

• I deleted this point I'm sorry but yes it's savage hulk that's my point savage hulk kills people who hurt those he loves

This is Mindless Hulk, who isn't remotely relevant to this debate, lacking Banner and Hulks' minds.

.... this is intelligent Hulk from #289. No it isn't. Stop lying. Stop being ignorant. free mefdssdf

In Conclusion

ahhfhfhhfdhfdshfs

[u/xWolfpaladin → u/xWolfpaladin]

In Conclusion

Hulk can't and won't turn into Kluh

Hulk can't and won't turn into Savage Banner

Hulk can and will one shot your team

My opponent shouldn't be trusted on anything and this probably includes their own characters

also the smoke is probably closer to pink than red i have flux on sorry pls no bully