Clash of Titans, Losers Round 3

[u/KenfromDiscord]

Out of Tier Rules

For Out of Tier requests, Simply debate better than your opponents. The judges will judge the quality of both participants arguments into question and decide a winner based on that.

Battle Rules

Speed - movement speed and combat speed will be set at Mach 1, Combat and movement speed, with their reactions scaled down/up relatively. Speed boosts via abilities, however, are indeed allowed to make one surpass this base speed threshold.

Battleground:

Its SCP-3008. SCP 3008 is an huge space (Current measurements indicate an area of at least 10km2) designed to look like the inside of a regular Ikea store. The arena will be tall enough that the largest submitted character can fit comfortably inside. Combatants start 10 meters away from each other, and in a line spaced 2 meters apart from their allies. Every combatant starts each round being 'teleported' into the arena, knowing full well whomever they face down needs to die or be incapacitated in order for they themselves to advance and win and will do so, and with knowledge of their allies' weapons and abilities. All combatants begin without any weapons drawn or abilities active, hands idle at their sides, weapons holstered, and the moment they teleport in they can begin combat. All combatants are in-character for the tourney itself. No character can escape SCP-3008.

As a side note, the towns that have been set up as well as SCP-3008-2 are not present for the tourney.

Side side note, while combatants cannot exit the arena that does not preclude parts of the arena being torn off and used as weapons.

Combatants spawn in the very center of the Ikea.

Submission Rules

Tier:

Must be able to win an unlikely victory, draw/near draw, or likely victory against

Ben Grimm AKA The Thing

in the conditions outlined above; All entrants will be bloodlusted against The Thing, meaning they will act fully rationally and put down their opponent in the quickest, most efficient manner possible regardless of morality, utilizing any and all possible techniques/tactics/attacks if necessary.

For tier setter fights/OOT requests assume both Thing and your character are bloodlusted

Debate Rules

Rounds will last 5 days, hopefully from Tuesday until Sunday of each week of the tourney; there is a 48 hour time limit both on starting (we do not care who starts, you and your opponent can figure that out) AND on responses, AND ADDITIONALLY each user MUST get in two responses or else be disqualified. If one user waits until the very last minute to force this rule to DQ their opponent without any forewarning to their opponents or the tournament supervisors, they will be removed from this tournament, no exceptions.

Format for each round: both respondents get Intro + 1st Response, then 2nd response, then a 3rd response and closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. EACH RESPONSE MUST BE NO LONGER THAN THREE REDDIT COMMENTS LONG WITH A HARD CAP OF 25,000 CHARACTERS SPLIT BETWEEN THE THREE.

Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are determined by randomization. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa. First Round will be determined by coin flip.

Brackets Here

Determined by coin flip, the third round shall be:

3v3 Team Melee

Round 3 Ends Saturday May 9th at 12 Pm EST

Format for each round: both respondents get Intro + 1st Response, then 2nd response, then a 3rd response and closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. EACH RESPONSE MUST BE NO LONGER THAN THREE REDDIT COMMENTS LONG WITH A HARD CAP OF 25,000 CHARACTERS SPLIT BETWEEN THE THREE.

Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are randomized based on sign up order via an internet list randomizer. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa. First Round will be determined by coin flip, and as it is 3v3s, next shall be 1v1, and so on and so forth.

[u/xWolfpaladin]

Point 1-X - Kluh

Whether or not Kluh has ever existed within Hulk's mind as a genuine entity of "Bruce Banner" is highly questionable.

The first known appearance of 'Kluh' is in Hulk (2008). However, the introduction of Kluh here is important, as is Xemnu, the character announcing him, and the fact that this match is copyrighted, and the fact that Xemnu is the owner.

Xemnu cannot be thought of a biological entity in the conventional sense. His body is synthetic, and he is an extraterrestrial mimetic psychic who protects himself by entering the thoughts of those around him, and retroactively writing knowledge. While this ability can't control Hulk, it is consistently able to impact the other parts of his overall being - Banner, largely. Xemnu psychically propagating his power the way he does and being inherently memetic lend themselves to Xemnu being more accurately described as an idea, or a lie, that also has a physical body than a living creature - the information you remember about Xemnu never meant anything to begin with.

In Conclusion, Kluh

• Only appears when Hulk is acting in an untraditional way
• Is incongruent with facts as we know them but is accepted by characters
• Is being affected by the event-specific nature of the story.
• Is never seen again or before in any other scenario.

It is unlikely that 'Kluh' ever existed as a genuine manifestation of Hulk's sadness, something he does not repress - that sadness is Hulk, and Hulk is Hulk. However, making not only a more marketable Hulk, but creating an evil Hulk who would subdue earth, are both part of Xemnu's ultimate goals in the current story. Xemnu rewriting Hulk, and rewriting his name to gain some long term goal are both his primary characteristics.

Furthermore, the first example of Xemnu after the point in the story in which Hulk has been trapped by Xemnu features him holding a dollar with Hulk on it. On it, we can clearly see 'TIH62K7U4', which seems random. However, the first half has significance that lends the rest to being seriously considered. 'TIH62' is the default abbrv. of "The Incredible Hulk, 1962", Hulk's first comic series and first year of publication. However, the later half cannot be read this way but it can be read. K7U4, with numbers as their letter equivalent reads as Kluh, being held by Xemnu, psychically imprisoned, enslaved within a means of gaining capital, hiding what would otherwise be apparent by changing names.

In Conclusion

Remember?

Point 2 - HULK SMASH

• Hulk jump
• Hulk no sell

The only instance you're posting of 'Thunderbolt' having actual electrical properties beyond fictional lightning that hits hard or hot has normal humans being completely fine for a prolonged period of time.

Hulk was fairly angry by fighting multiple foes in a row ... Hulk's anger builds up slowly

You murdered his wife. What the fuck is your point?

blasts that much smaller amounts of metal

takes the heat of concrete being melted, which is worse than vaporizing

Hulk takes a blast and doesn't react at all and then immediately retaliates, this literally shows Hulk reacting less than scans you've labeled as "No Selling" , and streets are not multiple feet of asphalt, nor do they really melt in this way, neither does dirt. This is either a feat divorced from reality or Hulk standing waist deep in multiple feet of melted stone from a blast insufficient to even burn away his hair or hurt him.

^ ^{what you should have argued kirb}

Hulk's base feats and rage in this scenario means that it is completely impossible for the enemy team to do anything to him.

• Hulk can't be stopped by extended blast capable of vaporizing a semi-truck thrown by him, Hulk can throw giant objects with orbital velocity
• Tanks star-energy blast that atomizes a military complex
• A much weaker Hulk is only wounded by a laser that vaporizes matter
• Hulk tanks gamma bombs, which are far superior to nukes
  • More nuke scaling
• A weaker Hulk with a head filled with shrapnel takes a full on blast from Thor's magic lightning
• 50,000 volts directly to a partially transformed Banner's skull just makes him stronger and angrier
• Hulk being exposed to millions of volts through sustained lightning hooked up to the Hoover Dam hydro-electric generator takes a sustained length of time to take him out, leaving his body raised above even what absestos can handle, asbestos is capable of consistently interacting with The Human Torch to the point where it's a villain for him.
  • The counter to the blip feat is weak, the narrative diction of a character in an old comic being used as a narration of what is happening versus a character making an empty boast is fairly clear. It is extremely common for authors in this era to speak through characters, and the argument of "maybe Blip has no idea what these words mean despite speaking english" is 'what'

All of these are a less angry and far weaker Hulk.

• Pikachu's lethality is not as effective as being presented, and in this fight he is working with the time limit of Hulk jumping at him once and reducing him to red paste.
  
  • Pikachu has 3 feats that are considered strictly wattage related in his RT, the first is questionable due to not actually incapacitating the humans it interacts with, maybe we're doing A-tier humans, I don't know, but this is not an immensely strong precedent for "instantly murders Hulk at the start of the round".
  • The second listed explicitly states when released at full strength, it can match lightning.
  • wtf is this. But also, even if you made some wild guess that this means its is equal to all the energy Hulk still has feats of matching or exceeding that in forms far less angry.

Pikachu's bolt overwhelmingly acts like a beam of force as opposed to carrying a significant charge, the singular example my opponent is using is borderline nonsensical and likely an outlier. It has little if any supporting evidence and a contradicts a far clearer frame of reference.

Pikachu's actual feats involving characters are

• knocks out some cops
• leaves some purple monkey conscious but implicitly incapped by a massive extended blast
• knocks out some birds with excessive exposure
• knocks out some birds
• paralyzes some balloon thing in a timeframe slow enough that people present clearly react

gets disrupted from some transmission lines ... also gets recharged over the course of a day

Blip's body is physically composed of electricity, and we don't know over what area his body spread or what the effects on the area are. Having unique properties to his body is not an antifeat for his scale, and slowly regaining energy from a city when severely weakened just by the scans you posted isn't an antifeat, he didn't a city and fight Hulk 2 minutes later

In Conclusion

https://i.imgur.com/71sxbcq.png

Point 2A - The Classification of Insects as Relevant to Modern Biology

There are over 1 million identified species of insects and spiders in the world. Insects, like all animals, are classified using a hierarchical system of classification. An example using the marmalade hoverfly, Episyrphus balteatus.

• Kingdom: Animalia
• Phylum: Arthropoda
• Class: Insecta
• Order: Diptera (the true flies)
• Family: Syrphidae (the hoverflies)
• Genus: Episyrphus (sub-set of the hoverflies)

From this we derive the scientific name for the marmalade hoverfly – Episyrphus balteatus. This ‘binomial nomenclature’ allows there to be a two-word, universally recognised name for each species, which avoids the confusion that might arise from using a common name in one language or from a region. Traditionally, the genus/species should be written in italics.

There are also groupings that fit between the tradition, which are often included because they are evolutionarily important. Insects in the wider sense constitute the subphylum Hexapoda, which separates those with six legs from others such as centipedes and spiders. It is then divided into two classes: the Entognatha includes primitively wingless hexapods such as springtails, while all the ‘true’ insects are subdivided into five major groups also know as superorders, the Apterygota, Palaeoptera, Polyneoptera, Paraneoptera and Endopterygota.

Source

But none of this really matters, for just as man crushes insects, The Hulk crushes your team.

[u/xWolfpaladin → u/xWolfpaladin]

Point - Toriko Exists.

No comparisons have been made between Betty nor Toriko's piercing [sic] ... Wolf is replicating the argument that he's criticizing me of

This isn't the same argument. My Toriko argument is based on the fact that his hits are delivered as piercing and that Toriko's hits are delivered with Big Energy.

• I attribute this misunderstanding partly to a lack of explanation and apologize. The nail punch is not a metaphor, or way of describing how Toriko uses skill, his punches are literally sharp, they penetrate, they act like forks or knives. His power is Food Magic.

  • Toriko's bare hand can slice cleanly (demonstrating physics, not scale), Toriko's punches aren't like getting hit by punches, they're like getting hit by strong knives. Toriko bisects.

• 'Punches can be piercing'

Sharp and blunt impacts work differently. They technically overlap, but this claim is like "Fire and punches both make heat so they're the same." There are important differences. Mostly direction of the stress. As the sharp object begins to penetrate the sides act as a wedge pushing outward more than downward. This places the material right at the tip under tension. The tension being caused by the wedge allows the tip to go through with far less resistance.

• Toriko's first response is to use a wall of knives, especially against multiple enemies, he has other things like bigger stronger knives

Point - Harpy Exists?

Harpy is immortal, unable to truly die when the sun is gone because of the gamma in sunlight, dying and rising in a short time.

• My opponent has already argued her flight speed
• Harpy resurrecting gives her free time to take off
• Her claws tear apart Hulk, an industrial machine press with adamantium struggles to cut his heart. Adamantium can pierce S-tiers and slice through what OOT people can't dent.

In Conclusion

Hulk murders 1v3, Harpy can maybe get a free kill

Luke

sucks

• Getting knocked on your ass is not a no sell and is 100% consistent. Bullets didn't damage Luke, they just badly hurt.
• Spidey's ranking is before Surfer's later amp, the difference between this is being knocked out by Thing or rocks to Surfer destroying planets or beating Thor-class characters.
  • Spidey is very clearly being used to create a rating fans can use
• " MAYBE i can finish the job"
• "taking the blow while practicing non-aggression"
• it took him three hits to break glass
• Many of the examples you are using come from an older Luke, this antifeat still applies to create an inconsistency with every old feat you posted.
  • This representation creates a problem. My opponent is arguing that Luke was equal with Thing in the 80s, (which I am arguing to be an outlier in the context of virtually every single other feat Luke displays in this time period), and they are also arguing that Luke has gotten stronger to the modern day, to the point where none of his old antifeats matter and he's generally superior. This is not uncommon, but the same issue my opponent is using has Luke violently shattering a solid stone golem larger than a building. This is out of tier striking, and the fact that Luke defense > offense means there's no real excuse for it.
• Characters falling harder than they should is not something I want to explain again, but here's Luke falling a few stories, causing a body deep crater and getting badly hurt without even being flown in at super-speed
• He gets put on his ass by a thrown girder by Thing and gets trashed against every time they clash

likely at a much lower speed than what speed is needed to turn a 400kg projectile into in tier

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/600806607894609930.png?v=1

Luke being on the back-end of this fight means nothing

It means you're attempting to create a narrative that is at best inconsistent and is at worst massively flawed

tier feat linked isn't as impressive as suggested

That wasn't my point, my point was that as soon as Thing makes contact the force of his blow begins to destroy the entire affected area, Cage busts through walls and then the building collapses after.

"air is less efficient that striking" doesn't have a warrant

https://i.imgur.com/Tr9CRxB.png

Conclusion

https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1230172848045592578/pu/vid/360x360/NumIhEPGTW-pWEBN.mp4?tag=10

• Hulk survives
• Hulk is Hulk
• Hulk smashes
• My other characters technically exist
• lol luke

[u/EmbraceAllDeath → u/xWolfpaladin]

Clash Of Titans Round 5 Response 3 Part (1/3)

OOT Request

Wolf, in his attempt to futilely give his team a win con that counters Pikachu, has unfortunately presented the Intelligent Hulk as OOT.

• First, Wolf presents Int Hulk as directly stronger than Thing. Presumably, the two trade blows with Thing coming out on top some times.

• Second, Wolf claims that Classic Hulk (Savage Hulk) is way beyond the scope of the tier setter, accepting my claim that he busts mountains casually.

Wolf claims that Intelligent Hulk can transition into Savage Hulk due to the course of events that happen in this fight. This would not be OOT if it did not apply to the tier setting match. However, Wolf has presented Hulk in a way where it's fairly easy to conceive of him using his savage strength in a fight with Thing.

• First, recall that by that the relevant tier setter rule is:

  • All entrants will be bloodlusted against The Thing, meaning they will act fully rationally and put down their opponent in the quickest, most efficient manner possible regardless of morality, utilizing any and all possible techniques/tactics/attacks if necessary. For tier setter fights/OOT requests assume both Thing and your character are bloodlusted

• Second, Wolf used this specific scan. (Here's a better version of said scan, as imgur screwed with Wolf's scan but he quoted the whole thing anyways). This scan is from Incredible Hulk 296, around the end of Intelligent Hulk, and where we would assume Wolf's Hulk is coming from. This Hulk is argued by evidence in the scan to be able to transform into savage Hulk easily if Banner lets it. However, there's no reason why Int Hulk becoming more savage wouldn't apply to the tier setting match but would in this round. In the scan, none of Hulk's love interests are involved, aside from Katherine Waynesboro doing stuff in the background, but she's not remotely a part of the fight. He's merely just pushed to his physical limit by Hammer (the monster attacking him). In the scan, he releases Savage Hulk as a part of a calculated decision to help him win.

• Now let's think about the tier setter match. Int Hulk is bloodlusted, and is strongly motivated to win. Banner is relatively smart, and knows the most efficient way to win is to release the Hulk, his alter-ego, and let him fight. Hence, he's likely just going to do this at the start of the fight, and punch Thing with the force to smash mountains and kill him. Even if he doesn't transform immediately, he can make the decision to do so later if he's physically dominated by Thing, just like he did with Hammer in the above scan. Thing having a physical advantage over Int Hulk is even unlikely because Wolf claimed Int Hulk scales to be stronger than Thing. Now in a world where Thing is already at a disadvantage vs Int Hulk, and Int Hulk is argued to easily be able to call upon Savage Hulk, and Int Hulk is bloodlusted, Thing's chances of victory can only be called as a Freak Accident Victory. Int Hulk is OOT.

• Wolf is probably going to make an argument that still means Int Hulk is OOT, or completely screws with his characterization arguments on Savage Hulk. This round is easily my victory.

Intro

• My opponent has extremely narrow view of what Hulk is or what Hulk does such that he lashes out against any contrary viewpoint. His points may seem true at a first glance but are not provable in a debate sense, and are simply vast misconceptions. Most the scans Wolf links are tangential to the matters in the debate and cover for the fact that he has little to no evidence backing his core points, while I do.

• Hulk won't get a chance to transform, won't transform into classic Hulk, and even if he does he still dies

• Pikachu is extremely versatile in being able solo Wolf's team with thunderbolts and can force his win cons well before Wolf's team does.

Pikachu's thunderbolt solos

We agree Pikachu uses it. I'm going to address its strength here, and why it tags later.

Pikachu's electrical projectile strength mogs Wolf's team

My thesis is that Pikachu can incap Intelligent or Savage Hulk with electricity. Wolf has not contested Kluh, Savage Banner, Toriko, or Harpy being affected by his electricity.

Feat Number	Pikachu's Feat	Hulk's Feat	Version of Hulk
1	Recharges Mecha Robuffet with one bolt. Mecha Robuffet had to be charged directly from a hydroelectric dam, and its use caused a blackout in a nearby city	Gets hurt by Modok's beams. Modok's beams melt through steel doors	Int Hulk
2	Vaporizes a hole in the metal Battle Dome. Said hole is large and thick	Takes exposure to Zzax. Zzax overpowers a space-based Solar power generator, and vaporizes humans	Int Hulk
3	Vaporizes all water in a spout. Said twister was multiple stories high	Unaffected by an Electro Stun field	Int Hulk
4	Knocks out a bunch of cops	Takes Blip's electric bolts, which are described by Blip as capable of incinerating cities. Blips gets incapped by power lines from a dam. Blip recharges to full strength over the course of a day by draining electricity from the small town of Oaksville	Savage Hulk
5	Incaps Aipom with a blast	Gets hurt by blasts that melt small amounts of metal	Savage Hulk
6	Knocks out multiple Taillow	Takes blasts that melt a medium pool of concrete	Savage Hulk
7	Knocks out multiple Skarmory	Takes blasts capable of melting a semi-truck	Savage Hulk
8	Pokedex entry says thunderbolts match lightning	Takes a star-energy blast that destroys a military complex	Savage Hulk
9	New Feat: Pikachu vaporizes 2 large vines	Only wounded by a laser that vaporizes matter	Savage Hulk
10	New Feat: Vaporizes another water spout	Hulk tanks gamma bombs, which are far superior to nukes	Savage Hulk
11	New Feat: Overpowers an entire power plant	More nuke scaling	Savage Hulk
12		Takes Thor's magical lightning	Savage Hulk
13		50,000 volts to a partially transformed Banner makes him stronger and angrier	Savage Hulk
14		Hulk being exposed to millions of volts through sustained lightning hooked up to the Boulder Dam hydro-electric generator takes a sustained length of time to take him out, leaving his body raised above even what asbestos can handle, asbestos is capable of consistently interacting with The Human Torch to the point where it's a villain for him.	Savage Hulk

First, most the current/power from Pikachu's electricity is comparable to a dam powering a city, and its heat can vaporizes large amounts of metal or water. Most of the "anti-feats" here are Pikachu incapping as opposed to killing other beings with his electricity. These feats do not disprove Pikachu's strength, because humans and Pokémon are ridiculously durable and normal, and hence the electricity doesn't vaporize them or fry their organs like it would on an IRL human. Humans also give commands to Pokémon multiple times while they're acting at transonic speeds, so them reacting isn't anti-feat for the electricity. Pikachu feats 9, 10, and 11 should show I'm not using outliers.

 

Second, Pikachu of his current iteration can incap Hulk with a single blast based on any of these feats. Keep in mind the electricity incaps with current/power (paralyzing, frying organs) or heat (melting skin, vaporizing eyes). I only need to win that Pikachu's electricity is stronger in one of these capacities to win.

[u/EmbraceAllDeath → u/EmbraceAllDeath]

Clash Of Titans Round 5 Response 3 Part (2/3)

• Hulk feats 1,5,6,7 shows he gets hurt by melted metal in far lower quantities then the metal vaporized in Pikachu feat 2 in the current season of Journeys. Vaporizing is much better than melting because the energy to vaporize metal dwarfs the amount of energy required to melt it, as seen in this graph. If Hulk gets tagged, Pikachu should be able to vaporize his skin and organs, incapping him. Feat 9, where Hulk gets hurt by a beam that grazes him and vaporizes a small amount of concrete, proves my point, because he gets physically hurt at vaporizing of quantities far below what Pikachu does.

  • Quick aside- the assumptions for the graph above are: Liquid Iron's specific heat is 0.82J/g*C, ~200J/g and ~6000 J/g for heat of fusion and vaporization, and specific heat of 0.46 for solid iron , and melting and boiling points from a cursory google.

• Hulk feat 2 is overshadowed by Pikachu feat 3, because humans are mainly water, and Pikachu vaporizes way more volume than Zzax does by visual comparison. Overpowering a space-based solar power generator doesn't mean much when we don't know if the machine works and we don't know how much power the SBSP generator is capable of. It's certainly less than a hydroelectric dam powering a city.

• Hulk feat 3 is featless electricity. It doesn't mean anything.

• I addressed Hulk feat 4 in response 2. My point to Wolf's argument is this.

  • Authors speaking through the characters doesn't change the fact that Blip's character statements vastly different from his objective feats, which makes it more like the character statements are written as hyperbole. The only thing that can prove that authors speak through their characters is comparison to objective feats, which favors my position. Pikachu is much better in comparison to a dam than Blip who affects Hulk with his blasts.
  • Blip's anti feats are relevant despite his unique constitution because if he can output electricity that "incinerates a city", then electricity from dam should merely tickles him, and him being composed of "billions of megavolts" according to blip means electricity should flow to the dam from him, but instead he gets hurt by the power lines, which puts into question his veracity.

• Wolf calls Hulk feat 7 vaporizing. However, as we clearly see, the truck is melting and burning, not vaporizing, as the truck retains a physical structure analogous to a solid. Even if it was vaporizing, Pikachu's feat 2 is much better in size.

• Hulk feats 8, 10, 11 are all afflicted by the issue of "surface area", which Wolf implicated when discussing Pikachu's durability. Hulk can't provably be taking anything more than a small fraction of the blast, because his body only covers that portion. In 8 and the first feat in 10, there is visible debris above Hulk, which suggests that those rocks too took a small fraction of the blast.

• Hulk feats 8, 10, 11 all concerns Hulk taking bombs. However, bombs primarily deal much more kinetic energy than heat energy, which makes these feats mainly for his blunt durability and not heat.

• Hulk feats 8, 10, 11 all involve radioactive bombs. Hulk gained his powers from such a bomb, and as such, his resistance against attacks involving radiation is probably much higher than attacks not involving radiation (i.e Pikachu's electricity), because radiation is his source of durability in the first place.

• The "gamma bombs" in Hulk feat 10 are highly dubious in strength. The first scan shows Doom observing from a close range the detonation with the glass window not affected. The second scan shows no objective damage, and rather dubious science given that Hulk should logically be taking a fraction of the blast. The third scan is dubious given that it never blows up half a continent in the first scan, and Doom would likely not remotely detonate the bomb if it blew up half a continent.

• In Hulk feat 11 scan, the "nuke" visibly doesn't cause damage to the town below, putting into question its strength. In the third scan, Hulk isn't even tagged by a nuke, but rather by the winds.

• In Hulk feat 12, Hulk taking in the requisite amount of electricity to light up multiple broadways is much lower in scope compared to a dam providing power for a whole city in Pikachu feat 1.

• In Hulk feat 13, 50,000 volts is a joke when when a taser used to incap IRL people has that energy, and the electricity has no objective showings otherwise.

• Hulk feat 14 shows perhaps most directly how he'll get hurt by Pikachu.

  • Hulk here gets incapped by a couple of seconds of energy output from the Boulder Dam. Pikachu in feat replicates the energy of a dam with a single blast
  • It's not even clear that Hulk is taking the full energy of the dam, as other facilities powered by the dam don't blackout like they do in Pikachu's feat. If the writers wanted to make this feat impressive, they'd mention something like Las Vegas getting blacked out or something. Reed here has multiple incentives not to black out Vegas. Reed wants to keep Hulk alive. The elites of society hates Hulk. Blacking out Vegas would draw suspicion and invite distrust when Reed needs donations to fund the Fantastic Four's philanthropic work.
  • Asbestos is irrelevant. Tier setter Human torch doesn't interact with it. Normal Johnny does, and it's a massive anti-feat because Asbestos is ridiculously easy to affect compared to what Johnny does regularly.

• Pikachu feat 8 isn't a valid anti-feat. We don't know how strong lightning is in Pokémon, and Pokedex statements are whack when there are multiple examples of them being out of line with the Pokémon anime

In summary, Pikachu's electricity vastly dwarfs Hulk's resistance to the point where even his resistance might as well be Harpy's. Both will die if they tagged by electricity. All of Hulk's feats above will also be weaker in the context of this fight, because Hulk will be tagged by water shurikens from Greninja's clones, making him wet and significantly more conducive to electricity by a thousand fold.

Savage Hulk bad

Int Hulk gets mogged before he has a chance to become savage

Int Hulk can't become Savage if he gets incapped before he has a chance transform from seeing Betty die. As stated before, either him and Betty are incapped simultaneously, Hulk is incapped first, or Hulk doesn't notice her dying before he dies.

Scenario 1

Both getting tagged first was not well refuted, aside from positing that Hulk can survive long enough to become Classic Hulk. That doesn't matter when both Hulks fall to Pikachu's electricity, and Pikachu can keep on directing electricity until his opponent is incapped.

Scenario 2

Betty getting tagged later than Hulk was mainly refuted with the point that she accelerates slowly, and mobility doesn't matter. Both running and flying take a acceleration to get into speed, but the latter is better at dodging later on. Wolf's argument about it not being relevant in the context of "bzzt go fast" is just a reason why Pikachu tags them simultaneously. Additionally, her tendency to fight at range makes it more likely Hulk gets tag first.

Regarding the efficacy of jumping, most of Wolf's arguments are moot Hulk cannot accelerate with jumps given the arena. One key element to dissect is that all of Wolf's jumping feats occur in an open arena, while all of his running feats occur in an enclosed environment. This is not an open arena, this is an IKEA; there are going to be chandeliers, bookshelves, fridges, etc. in any jumping arc, preventing Hulk from seeing where he needs to jump to. Hulk is likely going to default to running because in an enclosed environment he in character doesn't jump or is incapable. His running speed is also not consistently slower than his humans, Wolf is using one outlier scan:

• Runs and blitzes humans

• Gets in front of Betty in an instant without jumping

In addition, most of the scans utilized by Wolf are lacking in 2 respects. One is that the full arcs of most of the jumping feats are missing, making it impossible to determine if Hulk is jumping perpendicularly. Second, none of Hulk's meme jumping feats in speed relative to his running speed occur when he's jumping horizontally, he's just jumping fast but not absurdly so. This makes sense as it is fairly difficult to direct a jump sideways as opposed to vertically.

Additionally, because Hulk falls disproportionately fast relative to his jumping, it will be difficult to land next to someone on my team in the context of multiple obstacles before being tagged by a projectile.

[u/EmbraceAllDeath → u/EmbraceAllDeath]

Clash Of Titans Round 5 Response 3 Part (3/3)

Scenario 3

Hulk still will have considerable delay to noticing Betty's demise. Yes, he does have an instinct of when they're in danger. But that means nothing in a fight where Hulk is facing multiple clones of Greninja and multiple projectiles. Even if there's a signal that his wife is in danger, that's being clouded by multiple other danger signals, to the point that it's like Spidey getting beaten up by the Sinister Six because his Spidey sense is on the fritz. Most of Wolf's examples come from contexts where Hulk is in no immediate danger, and can focus on saving his friend.

Additionally, the overwhelming nature of Pikachu's thunderbolt is such Harpy would be immediately vaporized if tagged. This action would be so swift that it would impossible to perceive it happening unless Hulk was looking at Betty the whole, which again, is unlikely. Banner will perceive Betty as in danger, but will be stupefied as to how it actually happened long enough for him to get tagged by a thunderbolt and die.

Hulk will not transform into Bronze Age (Classic) Savage Hulk

Let me try to summarize the debate. This is a representation of Banner and Hulk, in a chart. As we can see, Intelligent Hulk is informed by Banner's mind and Hulk's body. Wolf is attempting to prove that Betty's death will induce Banner's mind to shift into Savage Hulk's mind, and access their additional strength. I simply need to disprove that, and show that another shift is more likely. My core claims are:

• Banner is high capable of repressing Savage Hulk

• Even if Banner regresses to Savage Hulk, he'll further regress into Kluh because he's being attacked by a team composed of his friend Luke, which amounts to betrayal.

 

Now, my first argument is that Banner will keep Hulk under control at all times, and has options to redirect that anger when needed.

The Banner and the Hulk are separated in intelligent Hulk's mind, where he calmly analyzes the situations. This makes Banner's emotions disassociated with him, and allows Banner to cutoff Hulk if an external element triggers him.

Now, Professor Hulk is composed of Banner, Savage Hulk, and Joe Fixit (Banner's trauma). Professor Hulk being able to keep Savage Hulk in check is merely a reason why Banner can check back Savage Hulk in Intelligent Hulk, because both the Professor and Int Hulk use the same personality to check back Savage Hulk.

The main counterpoint Wolf posits is that Professor Hulk has additional experience from the trauma of losing control as Intelligent Hulk. This narrative of events is blatantly false.

• In the scan Wolf linked, Intelligent Hulk doesn't disappear from a traumatic event. He willingly gives up control of his mind to become Savage Hulk (which quickly reverts to Mindless Hulk) in order to beat Hammer. At a later point he becomes Professor Hulk, but there's no intuitive reason that Professor Hulk would have more rigorous restraints vs accessing the Hulk

• Banner is afraid enough of the Hulk in general from his background that it should overshadow any trauma he receives from being Int Hulk. Int Hulk doesn't really experience any traumatic events that cause him to transform, so the main evidence we can base what Int Hulk does is what Banner does under Professor Hulk. In multiple instances, Banner elects to a double switcharoo of the mind and body so that Banner still controls Hulk's body, which means Hulk will become Savage Banner in this fight and make this a 3v1.

 

My second argument is that if Banner turns into Savage Hulk, he'll subsequently turn into Kluh.

My thesis is that Hulk feeling sad in a context where Luke is fighting him and killing happens is what pushes Kluh to appear, because Kluh is a specific manifestation of sadness Hulk has to Luke betraying him, which Wolf's arguments don't address.

Wolf's Kluh arguments

This entire argument is asinine and mainly exists because Wolf doesn't want to accept that Kluh is a specific a manifestation of Hulk's sadness, which is why he calls it untraditional, incongruent, and other baseless names. If Xenmu wanted Hulk to conquer the planet then he wouldn't make Hulk weaker by turning him into Kluh. There's a reason why Kluh busts out of the tower after being attacked by Luke and doesn't fight back, because Kluh does not remotely belong in Thing tier.

 

Now my third argument, is that most of Wolf's scans don't apply to Banner's mind, and are irrelevant. Wolf's args, numbered

Argument 1

• No, this is Devil Hulk, who is a manifestation of Banner's childhood trauma in the chart above. This doesn't indicate Banner becomes savage

• This doesn't disprove Kluh coming out in this battle, because Banner is not being betrayed here, and hence doesn't feel the sadness of losing friends emotionally associated with Kluh.

Argument 2

• This pertains to Savage Hulk's mind, and isn't relevant to Banner. Savage Hulk doesn't change into Intelligent Hulk until IH ~270 (as indicated by Int Hulk's RT), and this issue is from IH ~250.

• Even so, this is an anti-feat- it shows that Savage Hulk will cry and sit as a walking target instead of retaliate.

Argument 3

• Still doesn't disprove Savage Hulk becoming Kluh specifically when betrayed by his friend. This sadness pertains to his friends dying.

Argument 4

• Idk which issue this is, but I'm 99% sure this is Savage Hulk, so it doesn't disprove my claims of Banner repressing Hulk.

Argument 5

• This is Mindless Hulk, who isn't remotely relevant to this debate, lacking Banner and Hulks' minds.

Other args

Toriko and Harpy

They get incapped to electricity or Greninja's ranged piercing before doing anything, regardless of how many times they revive. Harpy can't revive if she's vaporized.

Luke

Everything that I needed to say is in my second response. He's strong.

Pikachu and Greninja's physicals

Haven't really been refuted, they strike with enough force to beat Wolf's team, and can take any hit from Wolf's characters.

The surface area issue doesn't apply to air slashes, as they don't move past Pikachu's body and each individual air slash is fairly small.

---

/u/xWolfpaladin

[u/EmbraceAllDeath → u/EmbraceAllDeath]

Clash Of Titans Round 5 ConKluhsion

• Pikachu shocking everyone with thunderbolt is the primary win con, and it works on Harpy, Toriko, Int Hulk, or any other Hulk because of its wattage/current and heat components, especially when Pikachu's foes will be wet from Greninja's clones' water shurikens tagging them.

• Greninja tagging people with water shurikens at range is a secondary win con, and it works on Harpy or Toriko

• Luke Cage hurting everyone with blunt force is a tertiary win con that works on Harpy, Toriko, or Hulk.

• Wolf can't win with Hulk

  • Hulk dies to electricity, either before or after he transforms
  • Hulk's jumping is ineffective in the IKEA
  • Hulk can't transform into Savage Hulk
    • Banner's personality keeps Savage Hulk under control when Banner is in control, Wolf lacks scans proving otherwise
    • When confronted with a specific scenario where an antagonizing side including Luke Cage has pushed for killing and has hurt Hulk, Savage Hulk has turned into Kluh 100% of the time. Kluh is monumentally weaker than any Hulk form
    • Wolf has scans showing Hulk gets stronger when angrier, but not Banner (as a personality) transforming into Savage Hulk when saddened/angered
  • Int Hulk is just weak

• Wolf can't win with Harpy or Toriko, as they get incapped by thunderbolts and shurikens at the start of the match.

[u/xWolfpaladin → u/EmbraceAllDeath]

As this entire debate has essentially always been the discussion of "Can Hulk get angry" and "Can Hulk hit", my final response will attempt to

• Re-contextualize my previous claims in the context of the entire debate
• Attempt to make my primary points clearer
• Attempt to bypass the bias implicit in any given debate to not only directly address the judges, but to directly address the flaws my opponent has made.

Prelude

I'd like to start off with no, this isn't some Guy-esque distraction from the debate. I'll try to keep this brief.

I do not enjoy an attack of character. I think that they are generally irrelevant, and often detract from the points that the user is making. I think they annoy judges. I would attempt to avoid an attack of character even if only to avoid weakening my own points. In this case, however, I genuinely and truly believe that many of the claims on the specific nature of Hulk are so flawed that they can actually only be considered in the context of someone who does not know enough about a given subject to understand how wrong they are. The reason I address this directly and not the actual feats in the discussion is because while I believe that feats can be interpreted in much more of a variety of ways, there are canon facts that objectively exist about characters. The most relevant of these is timeline.

• The Hulk forms my opponent describes don't exist when my Hulk does. For example, 'Kluh' has approximately 3 appearances, in one event, and never before or again. He only appears in the event of AXIS (2014), and only exists that way because of a telepathic personality inversion that made everyone act out of character. Something that turned heroes into sociopaths and sociopaths into heroes. The fact that my opponent not only genuinely uses this as an example of what Intelligent Hulk from 1985 would turn into, but acts as if attacking this is some disagreement of interpretation, should put literally every claim they make into doubt.

The other claims I consider to be a more acceptable misunderstanding in the context of general ignorance, so I will cover them in the tone of a normal response.

Additionally, I would also like to address the jokes I made in round 2. While these are jokes, intended to be read as jokes, to primarily illicit humor, I do not consider them fully irrelevant to my response. The claim that Xemnu created Axis Kluh is as much a waste of time as Classic Hulk turns into Kluh, and I in all honesty, as the user and not the debater, consider them equally valid. Additionally, the insect point was a vague complaint at the dissection of irrelevant points in the face of one overwhelming win condition. I largely argued with my opponent on issues like Luke Cage to expose a fundamental issue I had with the logic my opponent uses in relation to my own characters, not because I think Luke matters even a little bit, for example.

---

fuck formality all my homies hate formality

• Banner/Hulk love Betty and become enraged upon her death, which makes him vastly stronger.
  • Intelligent Hulk does not have the mental blocks that caused him to block out his transformation in later appearances.
  • Kluh isn't real. "Hulk loses because he turns into Kluh" has as much validity as "Hulk loses because he farted and pissed and shitted and camed in his pants."
• My opponent's claims about Hulk are misinformed and unreliable, and an attempt to re-contextualize them as a difference of interpretation can be showcased to be wrong even late into the third response, with additional objectively false claims.
• Hulk is frequently betrayed and frequently sad.
• My opponent lacks credibility on essentially every major point of contention.
• There is not a single given example of Pikachu ever opening with electricity equivalent to his best feats with the intent to kill
  • Pikachu at full strength will not kill Classic Hulk regardless.
• My opponent has generous definitions of antifeats and generous definitions of "no sell" or "take" for her own characters

Point 1 - Hulk vs Your Team

Pikachu vs Murdering People

• My opponent's entire win condition unilaterally rests on the single factor of Pikachu murdering Hulk so quickly that he has no idea that Betty has been hurt. Despite this, my opponent has provided no example of the extremely specific wording they use of vaporizing skin, organs, or anything even vaguely immediately lethal. Pretty much every single instance of Pikachu using electricity ever shows zero characterization that implies his opening blast is anything even resembling full strength. Based on actual instances, it is extremely likely that Pikachu opens with the electricity to incap a tall person (Toriko and Harpy are in the range of 7 feet) and attempts to zap them into unconsciousness. This will put down Betty first, and trigger Hulk in every possible scenario, because he objectively has the most electricity resistance present by to attacks in the tier of "knocking out big humans".

• Pikachu is overwhelmingly likely to attempt a KO before literal murder, which always leads to Betty being taken out first

  • Pikachu has never opened with an attack that vaporizes his enemies. The attacks he demonstrates versus actual opponents are sufficient to put down Betty, because even if you highballed her electrical resistance due to her size, Pikachu still opens with blasts capable of knocking out groups of people, but his blasts are consistently survivable by things with absolutely no feats indicating resistances whatsoever beyond a vague assertion of normal humans generally having super-durability.

• Pikachu's "Thunderbolt" is so totally divorced from how lightning actually acts when it used as an attack I'm not sure it's even intended to deliver a charge to people beyond a vague cartoonish shock in the same line of Wil-E Coyote using dynamite or a taser, because again, literally every single instance of it interacting with enemies can only be defended with "Maybe they're secretly A-tier with no evidence"

  If Pikachu doesn't provably use enough energy to vaporize Hulk, it doesn't matter if he CAN generate that energy, what matters is IF he will, and he has never displayed this lethality against opponents. Pikachu has zero examples of opening on sentient targets with full power blasts that will literally vaporize them or outright murder them, and the primary example of it being used leaves normal humans completely fine and is accomplishing a secondary goal.

To support the previous points, Pikachu is literally being commanded by a 14 year old child.

Hulk doesn't even need to meaningfully withstand the electricity as he would in the context of a normal 1v1, he has to not be dead, Pikachu has repeated examples of his blasts taking enough time that Hulk can react to what is happening versus enemies who display the grand electrical resistance of approximately zero, unless these cops have sunglasses capable of """withstanding the heat capable of vaporizing stone""" it's more likely that Pikachu starts weak his blast weak and slowly gets stronger, because again

• Takes a long time vs cops
  • takes a long time vs monky
  • versus some birds, now imagine if one of those birds was red bird's wife and he become exponentially stronger with the conditional release of his darkest urges and was also mountain tier and gained vastly highest resistances

Any situation in which Hulk is dying has Betty dying first, and no feat provided shows that Pikachu will use his full energy so quickly that Hulk will not be able to even react to it, and you have never, ever, at all in this debate demonstrated any example of Pikachu instantly incapping or vaporizing anyone with meaningful electrical resistance. Like, if Pikachu or Ash do something like "start with the minimum amount of electricity and ramp up so as to take them out" or even just start with something that would killa big man like Toriko instead of trying to LITERALLY VAPORIZE them, Betty is literally always going to die first, Hulk will literally always get mad, Hulk's circumstance is something that will always turn him into Savage Hulk. Every single claim about my opponent's win condition directly lies on the presupposition that if a thunderbolt hits Hulk even a single time he dies instantly with 0 time to react, and they have not even once meaningfully addressed what will happen if it doesn't outright instantly kill Hulk, which it does not.

[u/xWolfpaladin → u/xWolfpaladin]

Hulk jumps good

• Hulk is outrun by General Ross
• Hulk is outrun by Betty, and the example of him outrunning her she is badly injured in
  • The other travel speed feat isn't provably not a jump/outlier
• Previous example
  • Hulk jumps can overtake rockets with velocity exceeding mach 30, Hulk is at least mach fast to sub 20 mph running speed
  • Previous "Hulk blitzes people as fast as him"

Hulk can also jump straight

• Hulk jumps at a 180 degree angle
• Hulk overtakes two cars driving towards each other while travelling in a straight line before they can move a significant distance, breaking apart the claim of "hulk can't jump fast to blitz enemies"
• Hulk changes direction at a sharp angle while overtaking an ICBM

Most of the "anti-feats" here are Pikachu incapping as opposed to killing other beings with his electricity. These feats do not disprove Pikachu's strength, because humans and Pokémon are ridiculously durable and normal, and hence the electricity doesn't vaporize them or fry their organs

• These humans take a full on blast from Pikachu's "massive metal vaporizing" heat and electricity, yet it fails to even singe them, burn their clothes, or really do literally any of the things that should be happening if my opponent's major claims are true

It is far more likely here that Pikachu doesn't open literally every fight with energy sufficient to vaporize someone with electric durability far above a normal human.

The supposed instances of maximum energy are insufficient to defeat Classic Hulk.

• There isn't even heat demonstrated in this attack, it breaks like it's being punched by force, which Pikachu's blast is, and creates a cloud of debris dust, as opposed to glowing smoke particles
• Bursting apart water into steam is also not provably vaporizing
• ???
• This is a small amount of water being hit with force
• In absolutely no sense is this overpowering an electrical plant, this is like causing a brown out on the light breakers
  • literally every singular instance versus actual enemies

Hulk cares more about Betty than anything else

• Hulk cares more about Betty than anything present, including his own safety. The claim that Hulk's "instincts" act as Spider-Sense is both unsubstantiated and questionable. There is no example of Hulk being overwhelmed by danger from multiple sources, there are very clear examples of hyper-focus on Betty and his allies (previous).
  • Hulk acting on instinct acts like a savant, capable of disinfecting wounds and creating fire

"Telepathy, empathic rapport, instinct... words. Only words. They mean nothing to Hulk... He knows now that Betty is in great danger, how he knows is irrelevant."

• Notice Hulk being faced with multiple enemies and caring only for Betty
• **Toriko firing AoE knives makes 1HP clones irrelevant, Luke is a non-threat, Betty gets hurt by Pikachu so Hulk jumps at him and kills him in one hit

Hulk Smashes Your Team

https://i.imgur.com/a7ZktNN.png

https://i.imgur.com/l39oRSY.png

• Modok's beams are telepathic, heat, and force. Being caused pain by 3 damage types is not an antifeat, and the beams fail to put him down.
• Hulk doesn't react to a blast beyond moving and then immediately retaliates
  • But this is "no selling"
• Hulk "is hurt" by heat that melts concrete
  • Luke Cage "takes" the blow
• Hulk takes a blast that VAPORIZES a semi-truck before it can reach black bolt and murder him with molten slag (it would need to be vaporized both by the text box and by the narrative) when Hulk throws objects with orbital velocity (mach 30+), this is vaporizing in less than milliseconds, none of your feats have this kind of objectivity of vaporization no proof of speed, and this blast literally could not stop a far weaker Hulk than the one here.
• Hulk taking his surface area doesn't matter when his surface area is still far eclipsing and completely eradicating multiple miles of complex into fine red smoke and the beam is being delivered with about a Hulk's worth of surface area to begin with
• Hulk is taking a sustained blast of a million volts of lightning, the only reason he's incapped is because of the magneto-spheres, and eventually after being stuck there he is knocked out, not even remotely an antifeat for "Hulk jumps at you once and you fucking die"
• Thor's summoned lightning/marvel lightning uses a sustained blast to fail to take Hulk out to in a far weaker form that is specifically weaker to electricity
• Blip isn't affected by electricity, he's affected by being grounded, this isn't a feat of specific scale when we don't see the full destruction. The author making a deliberate decision of the villain stating what he is using against Hulk has not been discredited, especially when these statements are theoretically in line with a "very angry has been fighting for a while hulk", there's no real evidence against it being replicated here.

Point 2 - Hulk is Hulk

Kluh doesn't exist

• The argument that Xemnu created Kluh is equally as asinine as the argument that a Hulk from 1982 is going to turn into something that only existed because of the inversion event in 2014 caused by telepathy. The fact that Kluh has been brought up more than once as a genuine possibility is embarrassing.

• Hulk is frequently betrayed by his friends, it is embarassing to claim otherwise.

  • Here are 10 examples of people betraying Hulk, including his oldest friend Rick, or even Betty.
  • Here's Classic Hulk attacking Luke Cage and not caring
  • Hulk being betrayed by his allies is what caused Worldbreaker Hulk, the strongest Hulk form to ever exist, to form, he didn't turn into Kluh

Intelligent Hulk doesn't turn into Savage Banner

• 90% of the work in progress Hulk chart that you stole from someone who is more informed than yourself is completely irrelevant to the match, who was asking me if I agreed.

• Professor Hulk isn't Bruce. He is an amalgamation of experiences that represent Bruce's adulthood.

I used the Professor Hulk quote because it is widely the most iconic Betty death, but Betty dying in the same arc didn't cause a regression into Savage Banner, because they were still in the old dynamic, such as in the Hulk I am using now, what you are using doesn't matter and is overly specific.

• Banner thought that Hulk had killed his wife and he still didn't turn into Kluh

Professor Hulk has his own fears, own experiences, and own mental breakdown that caused him to turn into Savage Banner. Professor Hulk is who Bruce wishes he could be, and seeing Betty died caused that to shatter into pieces, and the fear that Samson had instilled caused Savage Banner, and due to being unable to stop the mental transformation, Professor Hulk caused his body to change physically. Bruce won't try to stop the transformation here; he wants to win, and he's really going to want to murder you. * Savage Hulk when confronting Abomination, who had killed Betty, fucking destroys him

Because Intelligent-Hulk is not a merged personality, he is simply Banner, his severe anger will turn him into Hulk.

Normal Johnny does, and it's a massive anti-feat because Asbestos is ridiculously easy to affect compared to what Johnny does regularly.

We don't know how strong Asbestsos is in Marvel, Human Torch is stronger or equal to Tier!Torch and his nuclear tier nova blast could incinerate Tier-Thing.

Pikachu feat 8 isn't a valid anti-feat. We don't know how strong lightning is in Pokémon

So it defaults to normal lightning. Thankfully, Marvel lightning is strong enough to vaporize a mountain of meat taller than the Hulk, so essentially every instance of Hulk vs lightning such as Thor by your own logic is much better.

While I only half-consider this point, I think it's clear that Pikachu's bolt in actuality acts completely different from lighting, but the actual wattage is intended to be comparable to normal lightning by the statement, pretty much every single Character Rant my opponent linked had people complaining about pokedex statements being too strong, Hulk can provably tank normal lightnin.

[u/xWolfpaladin → u/xWolfpaladin]

Rebuttals that I struggled to include but needed to

No, this is Devil Hulk, who is a manifestation of Banner's childhood trauma in the chart above. This doesn't indicate Banner becomes savage

This is Savage Hulk. Previous comics explain this. You are ignorant.

This pertains to Savage Hulk's mind, and isn't relevant to Banner.

Hulk is Banner and Banner is Hulk. ^{Or is he both?}

• I deleted this point I'm sorry but yes it's savage hulk that's my point savage hulk kills people who hurt those he loves

This is Mindless Hulk, who isn't remotely relevant to this debate, lacking Banner and Hulks' minds.

.... this is intelligent Hulk from #289. No it isn't. Stop lying. Stop being ignorant. free mefdssdf

In Conclusion

ahhfhfhhfdhfdshfs

[u/xWolfpaladin → u/xWolfpaladin]

In Conclusion

Hulk can't and won't turn into Kluh

Hulk can't and won't turn into Savage Banner

Hulk can and will one shot your team

My opponent shouldn't be trusted on anything and this probably includes their own characters

also the smoke is probably closer to pink than red i have flux on sorry pls no bully