r/whowouldwin • u/Verlux ​ • Jul 06 '20

Event The Great Debate Season 10 Round 3!!

Rules

 

Out of Tier Rules

 

  • For Out of Tier requests, simply ping myself and/or Chainsaw__Monkey and state your case for why you believe someone's combatant is out of tier, then proceed with the debate as per normal. We will evaluate that request individual of the debate itself and make our decision in judgments. Reminder: the Head Judges maintain the right to DM any user we believe to be skirting OoT lines and make our own OoT accusation, with said user having 48 hours to defend themselves.

 

 

Battle Rules

 

  • Speed - Speed is not to be equalized in any respect for this Season of the Great Debate. A character's provable speed feats are what they will be entered and argued as.

 

  • Battleground:  The Great Debate arena has traveled across fiction, from a coliseum, to the Mines of Moria, to Asgard herself. Now, however, we take a leap to a new medium: Welcome to Skyscraper. A two-tiered, enclosed arena affording smart combatants an easy out for stealth while also optimizing close quarters combat should persons choose to take that route, Skyscraper brings the Great Debate arena to the world of the digital, replacing two teams vying for a singular objective with six (or two) brutal warriors fighting for dominance of debate. Combatants start opposite each other, with the first-listed Debate team in Reception and the other in House Entrance in full view of each other, facing each other at a distance of 12 meters and in a line spaced 2 meters apart from their allies in team battles. Every combatant starts each round being 'teleported' into the arena, knowing full well whomever they face down needs to die or be incapacitated in order for they themselves to advance and win and will do so. All combatants begin without any weapons drawn or abilities active, hands idle at their sides, weapons holstered, and the moment they teleport in they can begin combat. All combatants are in-character for the tourney itself, and importantly all combatants have an accessible HUD (that interferes none at all with their vision and cannot be interfered with via any means, magical technological or otherwise) that displays a layout of Skyscraper's map. Of special note: the garden area is enclosed only by a waist high fence, and a perilous plunge over the side means a 25 storeys drop, and failure to survive the drop or get back on top of Skyscraper in under 10 seconds means Disqualification for that unfortunate combatant.

 

 

Submission Rules

 

  • Tier: Must be able to win an unlikely victory, draw/near draw, or likely victory against Nightwing in the conditions outlined above and in the hype post. All entrants will be bloodlusted against Nightwing, meaning they will act fully rationally and put down their opponent in the quickest, most efficient manner possible regardless of morality, utilizing any and all possible techniques/tactics/attacks if necessary. The bloodlust does not give any foreknowledge of Nightwing or his capabilities. Nightwing will be spawning in Reception for Tribunal.

 

 

 

Debate Rules

 

  • Rounds will last 4-5 days, hopefully from Monday until Thursday or Friday of each week of the tourney; there is a 48 hour time limit both on starting (we do not care who starts, you and your opponent can figure that out) AND on responses, AND ADDITIONALLY each user MUST get in two responses or else be disqualified. If one user waits until the very last minute to force this rule to DQ their opponent without any forewarning to their opponents or the tournament supervisors, they will be removed from this tournament, no exceptions.

 

  • Format for each round: both respondents get Intro + 1st Response, then 2nd response, then a 3rd response and closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. EACH RESPONSE MUST BE NO LONGER THAN THREE REDDIT COMMENTS LONG WITH A HARD CAP OF 25,000 CHARACTERS SPLIT BETWEEN THE THREE.

 

  • Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are determined by randomization. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa. First Round will be determined by coin flip.

 

 

 

Brackets Here

 

Round 3 is 1v1s individual fights, randomized as follows:

 

First Listed Person's Lineup| Versus | Second Listed Person's Lineup

---|--- | ---

Character 2| | Character 1

Character 3 | | Character 2

Character 1 | | Character 3

 

Round 3 Ends this Friday, 23:59 CST, July 10th

 

 

Special Note: Keep in mind that falling off the battlefield and not coming back within 10 seconds is indeed a loss

 

Links to:

 

Hype Post

 

Sign Ups

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u/xWolfpaladin ​ Jul 10 '20 edited Jul 10 '20
  • Movement is more important than reaction against equals with overly high defense, but essentially every feat linked for Nightwing's speed is movement
    • The bullet interactions do not automatically receive the same beneficial assumptions as the tier setter
    • PC Nightwing's bullet interactions are still just better, point blank revolver dodges and weaving through two point blank miniguns
  • The claim that Nightwing can lift more is just that, that he can lift more, not a claim on his striking potency.

Statz

Spider-Queen has a sonic attack that causes extreme pain, which is by nature guaranteed to land. The fact that it can propagate in all directions without harming her also makes it more likely than not that sonics do not meaningfully affect her.

Spider-Queen does well in the context of a direct melee fight, and additionally, as evidenced by the cap fight and other instances, she is likely to steal Nightwing's weapons.

While Nightwing has generally good movement speed, he is overwhelmingly likely to directly engage her at the start. Being able to generate an intensely painful attack for free largely negates Nightwing's ability to run away, the durability feat provided doesn't show the punch making contact (?), his striking is generally not excellent, and his reactions or defense in the context of CQC is unsubstantiated.

Spider-queen's reliable physicals, ability to prevent someone from running away, and ability to steal weapons mean that she can withstand Nightwing in a melee fight, win a melee fight, and keep the fight a melee fight.

Mayday literally never has to engage with the gross weird guy, she can do a flip onto the ceiling and enact her win con from there. The odds of Hentai Kamen purposefully allowing himself to be bound by a highschool girl are too high to ignore. Her physicals don't really matter, but being ragdolled into steel and compressing the ground chin first are also better than you're implying.

Origin learning to feel emotion is an oversimplification, it is more accurate to say that, by being an advanced entity with a specific goal, he gained certain emotions. The most primal emotion is fear, but the first emotion Origin felt was Will. Origin feels rage, sadness, and even joy or wonder, but he has never displayed fear or emotions that imply fear.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/721279343757754399/724164211588071424/unknown.png

https://i.imgur.com/w1xEsye.png

Origin's goals are based around others and not himself. He does not fear death, and cannot feel pain. If emotions can be described as the genetics of an organism giving it biological ultimatums, then fear and curiosity are an extension of avoiding pain.

Your speed feats are all ass, Origin cuts you in half.

Arrows suck and you don't need to react in 5 inches to catch something, baseball players aren't doing 100 mph/8 inches

1

u/andrewspornalt ​ Jul 10 '20

Response 2

Spider-Queen vs Nightwing

The claim that Nightwing can lift more is just that, that he can lift more, not a claim on his striking potency.

Nightwing hits hard enough to knock over a huge monster

Spider-Queen has a sonic attack that causes extreme pain, which is by nature guaranteed to land. The fact that it can propagate in all directions without harming her also makes it more likely than not that sonics do not meaningfully affect her.

Nightwing is able to deal with loud noises. Even if he didn't have this feat he might just be able to power through the pain anyways given that he can fight with broken ribs.

the durability feat provided doesn't show the punch making contact (?)

He gets hit in the back here and the second scan was to show how strong Stallion is. Here's another durability feat of Batman kicking Nightwing and breaking a motorcycle in half

his reactions or defense in the context of CQC is unsubstantiated.

Nightwing can definitely dodge bullets up close. Spider-Queen is going to have a hard time hitting him.

Conclusion

Nightwing still has an advantage physically against Spider-Queen and her esoterics would have little to no effect on him. His win conditions of "try to beat her to death and back off if it's too hard" still apply in this fight.

Mayday vs Hentai Kamen

Rebuttals

Hentai Kamen's durability feat doesn't show how quickly he recovers or how effective he is after

These two feats happen basically right after each other. We can see that he is basically fine after getting hit into the ceiling.

Hentai Kamen is theoretically hot in that he has separate attributes that on their own would be attractive but together he is a crazy person in a Speedo harassing a highschool girl.

Crazy can be hot.

Also I gave her a blindfold.

This would take time for her to put on.

The odds of Hentai Kamen purposefully allowing himself to be bound by a highschool girl are too high to ignore.

I don't think Hentai Kamen is actually into getting tied up himself. His only actual fetish is voyeurism and his other male family members seem more into getting hit by their partners. However getting hit by someone you love (or paid for) in the comfort of your own home is different than letting a teenage girl purposefully tie you up during a fight to the death.

Mayday has the kit that Spider-Man's daughter implies, including webbing, which Hentai Kamen cannot escape from

Hentai Kamen also has webbing through is BDSM rope and he is proficient in using it to move around.

Conclusion

Mayday can't run away from Hentai Kamen forever. If she tries to jump onto the ceiling and run away he has the means to catch up to her. Wolf also greatly misunderstands what Hentai Kamen is actually into.

Origin vs Jin-woo

Emotions

Your emotions tend to be linked with each other. Feelings of anger or sadness can easily lead to fear and vice versa. For example someone could break your stuff and you would be sad or angry about it, but you would also be afraid of that person.

Even if Origin doesn't feel fear at the start of the fight there's a chance he just develops those emotions. If he can develop these emotions from seeing Mai die I don't see why something like that couldn't happen with Jin-woo's bloodlust.

Rebuttals

If emotions can be described as the genetics of an organism giving it biological ultimatums, then fear and curiosity are an extension of avoiding pain.

Fear of pain doesn't necessarily mean physical pain. Emotional pain is something that people are definitely afraid of and try to avoid.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/210507417312690186/731254841115934771/origin_feats.PNG

I'm not going to dispute any of these because they're all pretty objective and reactions don't matter that much in this tier. I'm just wondering if end of series Origin's body is better than chapter 40ish Origin with the exo suit.

Arrows suck and you don't need to react in 5 inches to catch something, baseball players aren't doing 100 mph/8 inches

Baseball players are also aware that the ball will be thrown at them and actively prepare to hit it. Jin-woo's arrow catching feat has him sitting down with his eyes closed and not expecting anything to attack him.

Conclusion

Fear is linked with anger and sadness. Origin develops emotions like pity and grief which aren't helpful at all during a fight.

1

u/xWolfpaladin ​ Jul 10 '20

Nightwing vs Spider-Queen

The claim isn't that Nightwing can't power through pain, the claim is that the pain is another advantage that will allow her to win in melee, and that Nightwing isn't performing at his full capacity while dealing with distractions.

Nightwing can definitely dodge bullets up close

Citation needed, but I'm not refuting this, just the raw speed at which Nightwing coordinates and strikes, which hasn't been showcased to be superior to Spider-Queen. Spider-Queen can take his damage and has her margins of error generally smoothed out by a lot due to her abilities. Nightwing's durability is a lot less important when she can steal his shock batons.

Mayday vs Hentai Kamen

  • "The blindfold takes time to put on"

Combatants start 12 meters away and Hentai Kamen isn't hypersonic, she has time to do a backflip, once she's on the roof she can just do whatever she wants. Hentai Kamen's webbing suffers from live action syndrome, she can just deny it every time.

  • Hentai Kamen isn't immediately aware of the threat webbing poses as a restraining projectile, because it's fired in a sphere. Because Of The Way He Is, he's likely to try and block it with his penis, if not actively trying to get off on being restrained. Additionally, impact webbing generates an impact, and Hentai Kamen is fairly likely to allow himself to get smacked around by the webbing to get off, which generally correlates with his strength. He doesn't have any reason to believe that his comical, perverted, weird and inefficient actions are suddenly going to be less effective.

Hentai Kamen's rope is just really slow, he doesn't have the wall crawling or hyper-agility Mayday does for her general mobility.

Mayday is fully capable of running away from Hentai Kamen forever, and the proportionate stamina of a spider means she can do it for longer than he can. Hentai Kamen is fairly likely to make some kind of significant mistake due to horniness, even if he doesn't try to get restrained he's still pretty likely to try and deflect the webbing with his balls and then lose. Mayday doesn't need to get her hands dirty to win.

Origin vs Jinwoo

Your emotions tend to be linked with each other.

The key word here is Your. Origin is not a human. He is not descended from a specific line of north african primates who created specific responses to environmental stimuli 'designed' in such a way as to allow them to avoid fatality and ensure the spread of their genes based on billions of years of existing evolution. He is simply a very clever fakery of a human, up until the point his sense of self isn't fake.

Even if Origin doesn't feel fear at the start of the fight there's a chance he just develops those emotions

Origin developed emotions from seeing Mai die because his singular primary dogma was protecting Mai, and the cognitive dissonance of "I live to protect Mai and also Live Properly" caused him to generate emotions. There is no reason to believe that Jin Woo can create a situation where Origin would feel fear, or a situation where Jin Woo can make Origin feel the pain of loss.

To describe Origin gaining emotions as "immensely contextual" would be a massive understatement.

I'm just wondering if end of series Origin's body is better than chapter 40ish Origin with the exo suit.

The Exo-Suit is a thin layer of artificial muscles made for the purpose of allowing Origin to situationally amp himself without changing his appearance, because the biggest constraint of efficiency is a human-like appearance. He abandons this limitation and grows stronger as of the EoS.

Jin-woo's arrow catching feat has him sitting down with his eyes closed and not expecting anything to attack him.

Arrows are subsonic, he's going to be aware of the arrow before it's in range to catch it. It's not not a feat, it's just vague, the precedent here is Bullet Timing Bullet Timers Timing Bullets Bullet Timingly.

1

u/andrewspornalt ​ Jul 11 '20

fuck third responses all my homies hate thrid responses

Conclusions

Nightwing vs Spider-Queen

Spider-Queen has no actual answers to Nightwing's esoterics besides "try to take it away". Spider-Queen is in tier because tier setter Nightwing is basically better than her physically. My Nightwing has comparable or better stats in every area with some extra gadgets.

Hentai Kamen vs Mayday

Hentai Kamen is a degenerate pervert who would freak out Mayday. Wolf never actually argues about physicals and talks about a win condition that isn't actually outlined. There's also a fundamental misunderstanding of Hentai Kamen's fetishes.

Jin-woo vs Origin

Wolf never actually contested any of the feats for Jin-woo being more durable or stronger. His argument for stats basically boils down to "arrow timing doesn't count in this tier".