r/whowouldwin • u/Chainsaw__Monkey ​ • Jul 13 '20

Challenge Great Debate Tournament 10 Semi-Finals

Rules

Out of Tier Rules

  • For Out of Tier requests, simply ping myself and/or Chainsaw__Monkey and state your case for why you believe someone's combatant is out of tier, then proceed with the debate as per normal. We will evaluate that request individual of the debate itself and make our decision in judgments. Reminder: the Head Judges maintain the right to DM any user we believe to be skirting OoT lines and make our own OoT accusation, with said user having 48 hours to defend themselves.

Battle Rules

  • Speed - Speed is not to be equalized in any respect for this Season of the Great Debate. A character's provable speed feats are what they will be entered and argued as.

  • Battleground: The Great Debate arena has traveled across fiction, from a coliseum, to the Mines of Moria, to Asgard herself. Now, however, we take a leap to a new medium: Welcome to Skyscraper. A two-tiered, enclosed arena affording smart combatants an easy out for stealth while also optimizing close quarters combat should persons choose to take that route, Skyscraper brings the Great Debate arena to the world of the digital, replacing two teams vying for a singular objective with six (or two) brutal warriors fighting for dominance of debate. Combatants start opposite each other, with the first-listed Debate team in Reception and the other in House Entrance in full view of each other, facing each other at a distance of 12 meters and in a line spaced 2 meters apart from their allies in team battles. Every combatant starts each round being 'teleported' into the arena, knowing full well whomever they face down needs to die or be incapacitated in order for they themselves to advance and win and will do so. All combatants begin without any weapons drawn or abilities active, hands idle at their sides, weapons holstered, and the moment they teleport in they can begin combat. All combatants are in-character for the tourney itself, and importantly all combatants have an accessible HUD (that interferes none at all with their vision and cannot be interfered with via any means, magical technological or otherwise) that displays a layout of Skyscraper's map. Of special note: the garden area is enclosed only by a waist high fence, and a perilous plunge over the side means a 25 storeys drop, and failure to survive the drop or get back on top of Skyscraper in under 10 seconds means Disqualification for that unfortunate combatant.

Submission Rules

  • Tier: Must be able to win an unlikely victory, draw/near draw, or likely victory against Nightwing in the conditions outlined above and in the hype post. All entrants will be bloodlusted against Nightwing, meaning they will act fully rationally and put down their opponent in the quickest, most efficient manner possible regardless of morality, utilizing any and all possible techniques/tactics/attacks if necessary. The bloodlust does not give any foreknowledge of Nightwing or his capabilities. Nightwing will be spawning in Reception for Tribunal.

Debate Rules

  • Rounds will last 4-5 days, hopefully from Monday until Thursday or Friday of each week of the tourney; there is a 48 hour time limit both on starting (we do not care who starts, you and your opponent can figure that out) AND on responses, AND ADDITIONALLY each user MUST get in two responses or else be disqualified. If one user waits until the very last minute to force this rule to DQ their opponent without any forewarning to their opponents or the tournament supervisors, they will be removed from this tournament, no exceptions.

  • Format for each round: both respondents get Intro + 1st Response, then 2nd response, then a 3rd response and closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. EACH RESPONSE MUST BE NO LONGER THAN THREE REDDIT COMMENTS LONG WITH A HARD CAP OF 25,000 CHARACTERS SPLIT BETWEEN THE THREE.

  • Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are determined by randomization. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa. First Round will be determined by coin flip.

Brackets Here

Round 4 is 3v3s

Round 4 Ends this Friday, 23:59 CST, July 17th

Special Note: Keep in mind that falling off the battlefield and not coming back within 10 seconds is indeed a loss

Links to:

Hype Post

Sign Ups

7 Upvotes

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u/corvette1710 ​ Jul 16 '20

Response 1: I pronounce your name like "aim" in my head

Stat dump and stat rebuttals

Strength

Sabretooth

Shishio

this is like an inch of stone

No, it isn't. Previous scans from the battleground show that the stone is actually fairly solid the way through and is about a foot thick. This is actually a much greater area of damage to stone than Batman musters in his "1 foot of marble" feat, plus it's inefficient as hell to projectile someone and break that stone. Shishio hits harder than Batman.

Cap

Speed

Sabretooth

can't scale sabrtooth to later IF feats

You haven't provided a valid mechanism wherein Iron Fist is shown to have improved his speed such that Sabretooth is no longer his equal. All you've said is that the feats are not from the same author and provided a bunkum Doylist interpretation that has no bearing on this debate.

dodge is off-panel, not unexpected either

Doesn't matter. X-23 tries to hit him, Sabretooth dodges, Sabretooth tells her he dodges because she's slow. That's the interaction, and it shows what I am saying it shows:

  • X-23 is fast
  • X-23 wants to hits Sabretooth
  • X-23 fails to hit Sabretooth

sabretooth would be slower than Azrael

In reactions, maybe. Sabretooth is still fast otherwise, though.

because Nightcrawler tags him 10+ times then Sabretooth must be 10x slower than Nightcrawler

I have no idea where my opponent gets the idea that getting tagged by someone automatically makes you (# of times tagged)*(their reaction time) slower, but it's clearly just not at all true lol. Tagging someone a bunch of times doesn't by necessity make you faster than they are, it just means you have ways to attack them that they are either not fast enough or not skilled enough to block/dodge.

strikes make this more ms

Maybe? It seems less likely, considering later in the fight Nightcrawler is teleporting whatever objects he can directly into Creed's body. It seems the more likely case that Nightcrawler was beginning his attacks while still moving through the Brimstone dimension (where Nightcrawler goes for a brief span when he teleports, before reappearing in our dimension) and reappearing just before he hits Creed, essentially guaranteeing that they hit because they literally don't exist in the same dimension as Creed until they're already hitting him.

Nightcrawler tags Creed a ton of times because:

  1. Creed is slower than Nightcrawler
  2. Nightcrawler attacks from basically anywhere and everywhere and Creed literally has to predict his appearances to survive (Nightcrawler's teleportation would take parts off Creed because it ignores durability to teleport the material with Nightcrawler)
  3. Creed is explicitly holding back against Nightcrawler.

Shishio

unofficial translation ?

It's the translation used in the RT, that's the best I have to go off of.

saito is injured when he zero-shikis

Not very much on his upper body. Saito describes the move as being generated solely from the force his upper body can muster, so I don't see much reason to believe the Zero-Shiki is considerably hindered by Saito's injuries up to that point. Gatotsu would be, because it's a full body technique, but Zero-Shiki is not.

Cap

expects bullet

Doesn't matter at all. Anticipating something doesn't make your reactions like, twice as good or something. At best you could say anticipation could make this a 3.5 or 4ms feat for Cap's usual reactions.

5.3ms

This is not 2 meters, this is 5 feet at maximum. I called it 4ft for my calc because that seemed most correct, which places this at 3.2ms.

hah avx narration box antifeat 21mph

This is necessarily a less dependable statement concerning my character's movement speed than the speed statement I provided because my feat is Captain America explaining to soldiers how he will save a man's life in the story, and AvX is hot garbage trash with no basis for its numbers.

Durability/Defense

Sabretooth

azrael has piercing and cuts off limbs/bisects

He cut the limbs off a robot that required its limbs to weaponize its body parts, it looks like. The bisecting might work (depending on where Sabretooth's ribs are) but Azrael would need huge speed advantages (that he doesn't have) for that tactic to not put him directly in killing range for Sabretooth

can't backscale durability, spidey was going all out vs man-wolf

Maybe, but other feats exist before this point of Spidey hitting hard without going all-out: Shattering three inches of steel.

Shishio

this is less mass than Batman punching through 1 foot of marble

No, it definitely isn't. This is a large amount of stone being destroyed on the way to a lot more stone being destroyed.

Mugenjin

Cap

shield absorbs a lot of impacts, therefore cap is going down in a few hits

No, Cap doesn't block most of these hits with the shield, he's facetanking them and they don't break bone. Cap is still taking the energy of the initial punch, which will be greater than the energy of him as a projectile through x or y material walls.

Plus, the building dropped on him and he was fine (still didn't break any bones), just luring Red Skull into a position that would favor Cap himself.

hee hoo cap tired?

Cap fights literally dozens of villains in a row without getting tired.

2

u/corvette1710 ​ Jul 16 '20

Offense

Sabretooth

Sabretooth can and will cut anyone on my opponent's team with his claws, none of them have a healing factor, all of them die

Shishio

batman vs fire

He's using his cape here for both blocks, actual feats of his suit blocking a lot of fire would be needed to say he can just tank Shishio's flame techniques.

azrael vs fire

This scan literally says the fire causes him pain, and that he is in "terrible peril" from being in a burning building. Fire still hurts Azrael's body.

This feat is also mainly Azrael's cape blocking flames.

shang vs fire

Regular people can pick up hot coals with specific techniques. Regular people still burn to death. The fact that Shang can hold fire in his hand for a short time doesn't mean he can resist an inferno like Kaguzuchi.

Cap

The moment you've all been waiting for: playing statsball

Batman has hella antifeats.

I'm not sure why my opponent decided it was a great idea to use one standard of scrutiny for my characters and a different standard for his own, but here goes. Not only is my opponent's argumentation inconsistent (here's Cap getting tagged by random people, btw Batman is 3.3ms no antifeats don't look), but it is wrong.

All of these feats come from Batman 2011 and 2016, after Batman is exposed to dionosium and returns to a more physically fit and undamaged form.

But beyond antifeats, the feat my opponent uses to call Batman 3.3ms is bunk as fuck.

My opponent is dependent on several assumptions for this feat to be at all real in-tier speed:

  • Batman reacts after the crossbow is fired
  • Batman is not expecting the shooter to fire, a factor that my opponent claims significantly reduces accurate estimations of a character's reactions
  • Batman moves after the crossbow is fired and not at all up to that point

Any of these assumptions have doubt associated with them, since the scan itself does not show the order of events as fire -> react, but instead as "nebulous fire time -> nebulous react time -> nebulous catch time", wherein no transitions between these phases are explicitly shown.

Batman is not as fast as my opponent claims.

Shang-Chi isn't anywhere near as fast as my opponent claims.

This is the feat my opponent is using to call Shang-Chi 0.8ms based on the third panel of the second row, which my opponent has wrongly interpreted to be occurring before the bullets are actually dodged.

The bullets have actually already passed his face in the third panel.

The shooter begins behind Shang and shoots from that position; Shang-Chi would have to have turned his head to look at the bullets and then turned back around to dodge them in the positions shown on the page.

Shang-Chi is not 0.8ms, he's closer to 3.5ms at best. This is like 4.5x slower reaction times than my opponent presented, and lands him squarely in the same range or slower than two thirds of my team.

Based on the distance and Shang's ability to dodge without looking or knowing the shooter is there, these rounds are probably to some degree subsonic and are not being dodged from only inches away, and Shang-Chi is not as fast as presented.

Azrael sure as fuck isn't 5ms lol

The feat my opponent presents for Azrael's concrete reaction times is just bad as a baseline reaction feat. No evidence is present on the page that Azrael is reacting after the shot is fired, we don't know the gun or its muzzle velocity (hint: it's definitely not a sniper rifle), and my opponent's assumed distance is pure quackery. A nearby rooftop is not 4.7 meters away. This assumes a level shot (it isn't), no extra distance from things that are not street (such as sidewalk), only one lane (there is room for two cars comfortably, this is not the case in a standard lane) among other assumptions that make this feat way worse than presented.

This feat is easily two or more times worse than my opponent has presented it, pending muzzle velocity and distance, as well as whether or not Azrael is actually dodging a bullet after it is fired. My suspicion is that none of these criteria will be met.

Azrael is slow (easily 10ms), pending further evidence.

Esoterics

heat attacks

These don't do anything to my team.

cold attacks

poison attacks

electricshit

2

u/corvette1710 ​ Jul 16 '20

The shield blocks everything

Cap won't use both shields because he hasn't

  1. He has access to two
  2. Both shields have lethal capabilities
  3. He knows his opponent has to die or be incapped, but has no reason to incap
  4. He knows that the best way to do that would be to use both shields
  5. He knows the roundshield is way more durable than the kiteshield in the first place and would at least use it for defense

All other context and scenarios in which Cap has specifically chosen to go with only his one shield instead of two is not in anywhere near the same context as this battle, where he has been provided two and knows he must kill his opponent. My Cap outright states that 616 Cap holding himself back in any way is weakness.

Cap wants to kill you, and he has been provided tools with which he can do so.

or can't unga bunga skill

Cap consistently fights ambidextrously with both shields. There is no evidence to suggest that his having two in this scenario is at all a hindrance.

miles broke kiteshield

That was after Hercules double fist smashed it and it held up fine. The fact that Miles broke the shield means nothing when it occurred after Hercules had hit it already.

Bruce/Azrael piercing beats kiteshield

Hercules definitely hits with more force per square inch than Bruce or Azrael can muster with their piercing. There's no chance they pierce it.

Even if it were true that the kiteshield was less durable to piercing than the roundshield, Cap would already know that fact and block piercing attacks with the roundshield instead.

still conducts heat

Blocked the fire from a nuclear missile's rocket thrusters just fine.

roundshield has physics

not really

slower people catch, tank, or block shield

Cap isn't trying to outright murder these people. He will be trying to murder your team. Therefore, he will be throwing his shield harder and faster at your team than at these people who blocked, tanked, or caught it.

Conclusions

My team has outright physical superiority in several areas, huge advantages in offensive capabilities, and huge advantages in defensive capabilities.

  • Every character on my team has relevant piercing
    • Sabretooth cuts every opponent
    • Cap's shield goes through every opponent
    • Shishio's sword will go through anything that isn't a gauntlet or glove, because my opponent's team's bodies don't have the piercing resistance, their gear does
  • Shishio's fire is not countered by any member of my opponent's team
    • Fire can also be used to distract or delay opponents, opening them up for attacks
  • Shishio can render opponent's fire weapons less useful due to his presence
  • Sabretooth heals through or can just tank pretty much any vector of attack my opponent has.
  • Cap can block anything on my opponent's team
  • Esoterics either have to actually hit my team or are useless
  • Cap's shields are both lethal to my opponent's entire team
  • My opponent's team is slower than presented, in some cases significantly so
  • My opponent has applied differing standards to his characters and mine, judging his own characters from their absolute peaks and not mine

/u/ame-no-nobuko hope this is a fun time

1

u/Ame-no-nobuko Jul 17 '20

Response 2: Part 1

Win Conditions

  • My team can one shot my opponent's

    • They get gassed

  • My opponents team is slow

  • My team has better dura

Failure to Counter/Address

In his response my opponent failed to counter/address:

  • Basically every anti-feats

  • Nerve Strikes (which will hurt Cap)

  • The entire martial arts and endurance arguments

Rebuttal 1: Opponent's Strength

R1A: Sabretooth

Most of these feats aren't directly relevant to striking strength.

  • AC Unit - This is more akin to lifting, and clearly takes time and a decent amount of effort. He won't be able to apply a similar amount of force into a punch.

  • Rubble - This is just... bad. Like look at it. That's like maybe a couple hundred pounds tops. Azrael can lift/flip a car, while underwater

  • Concrete Wall - Few issues with this one:

    • The RT states it is a cutting feat and considering what my opponent has argued for his claws, they certainly are a factor
    • The hit is with with both his arms, meaning a single punch will only do half of this, so well below what my team can take

  • Iron Fist - I already addressed this, but he barely damages concrete here, its a complete garbage feat. Even with the "projectiling" aspect, its very under tier

  • Brick - Brick is weak (compared to metal or concrete), since all you have to do is destroy the mortar to break it. If this is as hard as he strikes, then he's under tier

  • Iron - Like the AC feat this has nothing to do with striking

Literally every striking feat he has is under tier, except for the concrete wall, which he had to use both arms to achieve.

R1B: Shishio

R1C: Cap

  • Concrete - This is objectively inferior to all the striking feats for my team. Cap maybe embeds the guys head like 3 inches into concrete, while Batman for example punches through feet.

  • Second Concrete - This isn't even proveably a few inches. Batman has better feats while projecting foes, and half his body being paralyzed

  • Shield - This is the only feat thats even close to my team, and it requires him to use his shield, and its very thin concrete. Like maybe 4-5 inches tops. So with his shield he's half as strong as Batman.

None of my anti-feats were countered.

Rebuttal 2: Opponent's Speed

R2A: Sabretooth

He's absolutely not fast, at all:

R2B: Shishio

  • Zero-Shiki - It is the full body Gatotsu that has the rifle scaling statement, not the zero-shiki

    • My opponent all, but concedes that I am right. If Gatotsu would be significantly hampered by not being able to use the lower half of the body like it normally does, then why would the technique that doesn't use the lower half at all be at all comparable in terms of speed

  • FTE - FTE is fake, and doesn't translate into any real speed.

His speed also isn't consistent:

R2C: Cap

  • Seeing Faster - This means nothing. Firstly WoC that he can dodge bullets is vague. Aim-dodging as the name implies is also a form of dodging. Secondly even if this were legit dodging, nothing here proves how close he bullet times. You can bullet time from 20 meters away and have shit reaction.

  • Bucky Feat - Anticipating an attack, would make it slower, maybe not 2x, but by a few ms easily.

    • This is not 4 feet. The gap is visually longer than Cap is tall and Cap is 6 foot something. 2 meters is a lowball if anything.
    • "Seemed most correct" is poor justification for why an assumption is made in a calc.

  • Behind Him - This feat is garbage. The shots are coming from off panel, so at least like 5-6 meters away and this is a luger that only fires at, at most 400 m/s. That makes this feat like a 12.5 ms reaction time at best.

  • Charge - Two shots are fired, but three shots hit theres no evidence that they are the same shots as earlier. The shooters clearly aren't good aim since they can't shoot his legs/exposed head/shoulder.

  • Arrow - The arrow isn't aimed at him, its being shot by an ally. Visually its clearly farther into the background than Cap is

None of my anti-feats save for the AvX one was addressed.

  • AvX - AvX is WoG. Its not less valid than the statement that Gatotsu operates at the speed of a rifle

I'd just like to reiterate, that Cap is slow both in terms of reaction:

and movement speed:

1

u/Ame-no-nobuko Jul 17 '20

Response 2: Part 2

Rebuttal 3: Opponent's Dura

R3A: Sabretooth

  • My opponent has proven that adamantium is anything impressive, and theres no reason to take him at his word

  • Azrael - The point of my argument is that Azrael will go for lethal/crippling blows. He'll try and cut off Sabretooth's head a whole lot faster than the "generally doesn't kill" Nightwing

    • While he is faster, he doesn't need to be. The sword is like 4 feet long, giving him a "range" advantage over Creed. He can dice Creed, before Creed can physically touch him.

  • Piercing Resistance - Puncture wounds might not do much, but as mentioned, Azrael really doesn't stab people that much he cuts through. While Creed can reattach limbs, he has to reattach them, which doesn't help when Azrael's sword is on fire and will burn his limbs away.

    • Plus he'd have to take the time to reattach it, which he won't have if he's fighting Azrael

  • Spider-Man - That very clearly not 3 inches of steel, its clearly only like an inch tops.

R3B: Shishio

R3C: Cap

Durability

None of my anti-feats were addressed.

Endurance
  • Supervillains - He fought as Batroc in like one fight, took a break, fought crossbones and then fought some random villains with his allies for a few minutes. None of this is better than Batman/Shang's ability to fight for 12+ hours non stop.

Rebuttal 4: Opponent's Other Offensive

R4A: Sabretooth

  • Robot Head - He didn't. He just caused some cosmetic damage. The robot is an infected Spider-man, if he took off his head Peter would've died when Hank cured everyone, which he clearly isn't.

  • Rip Off Arm - Not piercing or relevant to my teams dura

  • Head - Again not piercing or relevant to my teams dura

  • Robot Arm - This is worst than what Azrael's sword does

R4B: Shishio

None of these do anything, and the final technique is something he waited until the very end of fighting Kenshin and Co to use. He fought like 4 people and didn't use it until Kenshin had him on the ropes.

  • Due to his lack of electricity, poison and piercing resistance there is no "on the ropes" in this fight. He'll be taken out in one hit

In generally Shishio never opens with any of his special attacks and works up to each. Using the first then second then third, in that order.

My Team

R4C: Cap

I don't think the circle shield has ever actually like cut someone in any notable way

  • Shield Speed - I linked a ton of instances of non-bullet timers like Nick Fury dodging or catching the shield last round, one vague feat doesn't outweigh like 6 anti-feats

  • Kite Shield - He can't use both parts of the kite shield and the circle shield

  • IC - Killing =/= hyper optimized.

Rebuttal 5: Counter-Arguments

R5A: Batman

Anti-Feats

I'd like to note that most of these anti-feats came from early in the 2016 Batman series, which was years ago (it has been over a year in universe since BWL appeared and he after most of these feats). Bruce gets faster over time.

Speed Feat

Yes, these assumptions are based on some pretty simple logic:

1) Batman isn't standing there stupidly holding his hand to his chest and even if he was, he'd still need to close his hand around the arrow, making it a valid reaction feat

2) The arrow is fired due to Stephanie Brown sucking, and a misfire occurring. If she was competent she'd have taken out the lady and no arrow would've been fired, just as Batman planned.

This also isn't Bruce's only reaction time feat on this scale:

1

u/Ame-no-nobuko Jul 17 '20

Response 2: Part 3

R5B: Shang

  • I don't know why my opponent used 4 feet when visually the shooter himself is much closer than Cap is to Bucky, which he claims is 4 feet as well.

    • This also doesn't account for the fact that the bullet travelled a distance before he reacted. This feat is around 1 foot
    • I have never claimed which panel I am referencing, as the third panel is well within the foot I calced for
    • My opponent also used 343 m/s, despite this being a Glock as I showed in my calc, which fires at 375 m/s, so even if right this is closer to a 3 ms feat.

R5C: Azrael

Azrael also has a number of comparable feats:

Rebuttal 6: Esoterics

Rebuttal 7: Shield

Also note the shield cannot block everything, as its pretty small. If its say blocking Azrael's flamethrower it can't be used to block Batman's batarangs

TL;DR THE RATS > THE CAP

/u/corvette1710

1

u/corvette1710 ​ Jul 18 '20

Response 2: I'm gonna pronounce it "aim" every time we're in vc

My opponent's feat interp is questionable

I'm gonna start this response by rebutting some points that address several feats and their interpretations.

First:

traditional japanese architecture doesn't use stone, therefore clay

The Meiji period, when Rurouni Kenshin takes place, was characterized in part by a westernization of architectural methods in Japan, including the use of stone as a common building material. This source also states that steel becomes more commonly used in this period as well. This would ordinarily not prove my point on its own, but seeing as Shishio's compound had a huge metal door at the entrance to the arena in question, it would indicate to me that Shishio did in fact use stone to build this arena, since this would then fulfill two qualifications of using Meiji-era architectural technique.

If Shishio was willing to modernize in multiple other respects, some rarer than the use of stone in architecture, then it is more likely that he built his compound's arena out of stone than that that he used traditional methods.

Therefore, Shishio's striking is still better than Batman's.

he's explicitly close to death from 9-headed dragon

Hoji is talking about Kenshin in this scene, not Shishio. You can tell because he says, "after taking blow after blow from Shishio-sama, he must be close to death." Plus the entire rest of the page is about how tough Kenshin is.

Next:

wait a minute these aren't striking feats

Not all of them, no. I find it's usually good to establish some ways of winning a physical altercation that aren't just punching and nothing else. For example, I think it's particularly useful to have done so here because you didn't provide a single lifting feat for any of your characters except Azrael.

Per your argumentation this round, only Azrael has a chance of not getting unilaterally overpowered and killed in a grapple.

A minor addition to this point is that two lifting feats have been provided for Azrael so far, and they're both bad. 1 2

The fact that my characters can shatter and deform metal in their grip, as well as lift respectable amounts of weight mean that any confrontation between my opponent's characters and mine that come to a grapple will mean the deaths of his team.

Next:

sabretooth's strength feats

I'm just gonna bunch these together because I think my opponent is wrong about just about all of them.

  • AC Unit: he's ripping the thing out of the roof, breaking it from its bolted position. This indicates lifting strength that breaks and deforms metal
  • Rubble: It's still a big hunk of concrete, I'm not sure what the holdup is here. Eyeball math calls this about three quarters of a ton, overhead, on unsure footing. I'm gonna call this estimate conservative because the concrete is about as far across as Creed is tall, but we can't see the full length from front to back in the feat.
  • Iron Fist: Iron Fist's back is embedded in the concrete after being projectiled 10+ feet by Sabretooth. This feat is fine for striking, as far as I'm concerned.
  • Brick: He's pretty clearly just breaking a bunch of bricks here with his strike, and the hole he makes is bigger than he is. That's all there is to this feat. I never said it was as impressive as an equivalent volume of concrete, because that would be patently untrue.
  • Concrete Wall:
    • This is clearly a strike, as denoted by the KRAKOOM onomatopoeia.
    • The fact that the RT characterizes this as the claws cutting concrete is irrelevant because the feat is, again, clearly a strike
    • Even if this is with both hands, dividing the amount of concrete broken by half would still equal better striking than my opponent's entire team, including Shang-Chi

shang chi striking

This is something I'd have mentioned if I had noticed it in response 1:

This feat is four strikes, not one.

Shang-Chi strikes about one fourth as hard as is being presented by my opponent, and as a result does not hit hard enough to significantly injure my team with his strikes.

shieldshit: why no mjolnir, kiteshield dura

He says why in the feat you posted. He is projecting the strength of both himself and his regime, and he isn't fighting someone every day, he more often has to administrate and actually run a state as Hydra Supreme. The strength he projects by leaving Mjolnir out with an enchantment that says the strongest person can use it is more efficacious to his cause than carrying Mjolnir around to hit people with.

Plus, as soon as he knows has to hit someone with it, he tries to use it but is thwarted by reality warping that changes the enchantment back to the original.

The Miles feat takes place after Herc hits it, Herc hits probably millions of times harder than Miles, it could easily be the case that the kiteshield was weakened by taking a hit from Herc, which would allow Miles to then break the shield.

Herc's pressure per square anything is still going to be massively higher than any force in that area that your team's piercing can muster, however:

Even if you're correct, then Cap already knows this about his shield and will block with the roundshield instead.

Also this point about it conducting heat is such a massive red herring, but I don't care because you haven't even proven your flame attacks would heat the shield sufficiently to damage Steve when 1) the shield is fireproof, 2) Steve's suit is fireproof, and 3) Steve is pretty fireproof.

cap: slow??

Adding a few ms would be doubling the feat's reaction time, something that we both agreed was not how anticipating reaction time worked. You've contradicted your own argument in the same sentence you made it. "Not 4 feet" except Steve is in two different positions (kneeling vs standing) when Bucky shoots, so you haven't actually shown any scans where they should be the same distance apart as when the feat occurs.

I already addressed the tranq darts last round:

  • Captain America is tracking Logan and Laura to throw his shield at them: distracted
  • X-23 shoots him with the tranqs when his back is turned: not looking, therefore no way to know if something is coming
  • Cap had no reason to expect someone to shoot him with a tranq gun because his team are the ones who brought the tranq guns: if he heard the gun he had no reason to assume it was aimed at him

Ame's team's speed is both fake and wrong

Batman

The crossbow feat is still clearly not at all a reaction feat when Bruce had hundreds of milliseconds to react to specific events that he, being a fucking genius polymath, would know might happen:

  1. Hundreds of milliseconds for Batgirl to burst through the window to kick the lady
  2. Dozens or hundreds of milliseconds for the lady to be knocked forward before firing, per my opponent's interpretation of the order of events
  3. Dozens for the trigger of the crossbow to be pulled by accident before firing
  4. Ten+ milliseconds for the crossbow to actually fire (locktime)
  5. Actual in-tier milliseconds of the crossbow bolt firing before hitting

My opponent is arguing that at no point in steps 1-4 did Bruce react, despite no on-panel evidence indicating such. My opponent's interpretation of this feat is entirely biased for no reason based on no evidence in order to finagle this feat to the number he wants that keeps him near tier.

Nightwing is only a "whisker" faster than Bruce

5 or more years ago? Pre-dionosium? Seems a little suspicious to me that you're arguing Batman as considerably faster than he was at this point (such that no speed anti-feats from before his exposure to dionosium are valid) when his lack of relative speed is what keeps him in tier.

react to sniper bullet

This feat is physically impossible to have happened and is as such complete bunkum when my opponent is grounding most of his arguments in physics. For some reason we have to adopt a double standard for this feat of Batman hearing a bullet that travels Mach 3+ before it lands. At his argued reaction time he would have to be hearing it from like 13 feet away, despite it traveling faster than sound and despite nothing about this feat making sense as presented. Throw this one out because it makes no sense in the framework we've been having this debate

1

u/corvette1710 ​ Jul 18 '20

missiles at close range

We have literally no frame of reference for the speed of these missiles, fast or slow. This is completely unusable. My opponent didn't even attempt to provide any speed for them. I have no fucking clue how fast a missile of those size or design or make or model go, and I don't care to find out for my opponent.

dodge uzi from behind

These occur on the same panel. There is no way for you to prove this is a reaction feat. It is every bit as simple as that.

Azrael

explicitly high tech sniper rifle

Azrael just says rifle, which is markedly different from a sniper rifle. It looks nothing like one. We have no idea of the caliber. We know it doesn't penetrate the fat guy through and through. It therefore doesn't seem likely that the bullet is either large or fast, because its penetration is bad.

13° angle

No. I don't care what the bullet path says, because on the page before the feat, we see the building behind Azrael, and the roof, where the shooter is, is not five fucking meters away. This feat is not real at all.

doesn't know the shooter is there until after

Also on the previous page is Azrael expecting a hitman after noticing 1) the position Mercante puts him in, with his back in the window with a clear view from across the street and 2) how nervous Mercante is.

The dialogue on both pages pertinent to the feat indicates Azrael knew he was being set up for a hitman.

spear break

We don't see where Azrael is until he's already there. He could be literally anywhere in relation to this spear by the time of the second panel, where the spear is so close to the man. The sword to cut the spear could be just out of frame. We don't know, we can't say this is any good with any certainty.

sleepy bullets

This isn't reacting to bullets for the exact same reasons as all the other ones: No sequence of reactions is shown where the bullet has been definitively fired, then the character reacts and moves. It isn't the case here and it isn't the case in any of the other feats, either.

Azrael scales to not much slower than Nightwing

Azrael actually scales to faster than Nightwing, in Nightwing's words. He's also faster than Batman, per Batman. It's curious that you wouldn't use these statements when they would improve Azrael's shaky speed standing--though perhaps it has something to do with Azrael's tier status being dependent on his speed inferiority to Nightwing, something which is explicitly not the case.

Shang-Chi

My opponent fundamentally ignored my criticism of his feat interpretation so he wouldn't have to defend the misconception he had about the feat, because the second panel of this feat clearly does not show bullets a foot away from Shang-Chi.

My opponent also attempted to defend his 0.8ms interpretation by saying Shang-Chi reacted when the bullets are in the air, etc. But this is also not the case, because Shang hasn't reacted yet in the 2nd panel, either. Shang's reactions are still worse than my opponent wants you to believe.

My team is still fast

Sabretooth

reliant on woc and bullet timing 70s iron fist

No, my argument is reliant on an Iron Fist who isn't using chi to enhance himself at the time of this feat being comparably similar in speed to Iron Fist who is using chi thirty years prior. My argument actually does account for power creep in this fashion, because I'm comparing a directly weaker current Iron Fist to old Iron Fist and asking my opponent to provide evidence that a chi amp affects an Iron Fist who isn't using his chi.

react to davos post-amp

This is Iron Fist using his chi in order to do so, the RT characterizes the feat I'm using as Iron Fist not using his chi.

amped overall power

Amped his chi abilities: "Heightened powers. Heighetened skills. Heightened awareness. Awareness seems to be talking about his senses here, since he can hear someone's sweat running down their cheek.

nothing proves dodge

Nothing proves it except what the characters said and did.

X-23 is fast. X-23 tries to hit Sabretooth. Sabretooth dodges. Sabretooth tells X-23 she missed because she was too slow. End scene.

X-23 gets shot

I would generally defend this kind of thing in the Wolverine-adjacents as being the product of not having to give a shit about getting hit, because you'll just heal anything that hurts you. Basically, X-23 (or Wolverine, Sabretooth, Daken, etc.) can still accomplish everything she needs to accomplish while still getting hit by bullets, so she doesn't need to do any dodging in order to complete her goals. The fact that she does is a testament to her ability to essentially decide that she needs to dodge something at tier level and do it. The same argument goes for Sabretooth.

This is, of course, on top of other mitigating circumstances for X-23 (in order of my opponent's links):

  • Getting hit allows her an upper hand on this group of gunmen
  • Getting hit allows her to get in close to permanently maim her opponent while suffering no permanent damage herself
  • Getting hit is due to extremely unsteady footing in a plane that 1) just exploded and 2) must be rapidly depressurizing, on top of 3) it doesn't matter if she gets shot if she can just jump out of the plane and heal.

And Creed:

  • Sabretooth literally does dodge attacks in this sequence
  • If Sabretooth could whole-body dodge multiple feet in the few milliseconds it takes Nightcrawler to teleport away, he'd have fucking crazy body movement, higher than the tiersetter by far
  • so of course he's getting hit by attacks that spawn inside his body in single-digit milliseconds
  • but he also moves his head and hands appreciable distances in that time

Single-digit milliseconds is a really fucking short amount of time, TSNW only throws jabs in like 14ms. If the tiersetter were bloodlusted Nightcrawler then every pick would be undertier.

Basically my opponent's implication here is that Nightcrawler and his team are in any way similar fights for Sabretooth, and that because Nightcrawler is able to hit Sabretooth a bunch of times, that his team will be able to meaningfully damage Sabretooth as well for the same reasons. I think these fights are not at all analogous because his team is going to occupy one contiguous, specific area each (whereas Nightcrawler will continually shift position with no travel time), will attack in more time than single-digit milliseconds, and have attacks that can be blocked and tanked.

Nightcrawler without the in-tier hit fast feats

He doesn't need them when the attacks are directly on top of Creed.

and reaction feats

The teleport is the reaction feat.

tps from not directly on creed

With weapons that allow him more reach, so he doesn't have to get close to an opponent who can eventually tag him and kill him, yes.

not comparable speeds reeeeee r u insane

I never said Creed was as fast as Nightcrawler, just that he had the capability to fight an opponent as outright fast as Nightcrawler is, with that kind of mobility advantage and attacks that ignore durability.

pinions

He did this to lure Archangel in and gut him.

I've already addressed why getting shot doesn't matter for a regenerator, and why regenerators on Creed's level pretty much have to be addressed by their peaks.

Shishio

Gatotsu has rifle scaling statement, not Zero-Shiki

I'd buy this if Zero-Shiki were not a technique of Gatotsu, but it is.

But even if we assume Zero-Shiki is different, that doesn't matter at all because it actually hits the guy who catches Gatotsu and rifle bullets.

This indicates that even if it's slower, it's still just as, if not more effective at hitting opponents who can react to Gatotsu, kind of like a punch is slower than a kick but a kick takes more time to execute: Zero-Shiki takes less time than a full Gatotsu, and as such lands in a shorter timeframe.

why would this be comparable

Even if it were half as fast (something we have no reason to assume about it) it would be a 4ms feat, better than Azrael (and probably better than Batman tbh) at least.

fails to react to longways gatotsu

[He has clearly already reacted to Saito's presence at the distance he entered,] we don't know the distance for the Gatotsu itself because Saito is not shown begining his execution of Gatotsu, only the end where it hits Shishio. We cannot be sure what distance it was executed from, or even that Shishio could see it happening through the dust and rubble that Saito may be using to hide the technique.

1

u/corvette1710 ​ Jul 18 '20

Cap

how close he bullet time? how see bullet

He sees this. He says that's how he dodges bullets. He dodges this bullet. That must be a distance at which he can see faster in order to dodge bullets.

12ms hee hoo

Doesn't look much like he's exerting himself, though, does it?

two shots fired, three shots hit

There are more gunmen than just the two who could be firing, as well as the helicopter gunner. These are probably the same shots.

arrow not aimed at him

He's still blatantly reacting the arrow at that range.

can't dodge from a few feet away

This looks like extenuating terrain to me. It seems as though they're on a hover-vehicle of some kind, and that Cap is in the most unstable position standing on an arm of the machine. There basically isn't anywhere to dodge. He even mentions he's trying not to fall.

pellets

He isn't looking at pellet guy, he's looking at the guys with the guns whom he's bum-rushing.

move slow no catch car hehe

Outpaces a terrified, physically fit dude with a huge headstart from a lying down position. Even if the guy runs only 15mph Cap is much more than 2x faster.

It also looks like Cap is not at all interested in chasing down that car. Can you call it a movement speed antifeat when they aren't trying to move anywhere?

Other, minor rebuttals

adamantium? who is she never met her

this was a waste of character space because adamantium is one of the hardest materials in the marvel universe besides cap's shield

even just the collateral in this huge album is enough to say "yeah it won't break ever in this tier"

didn't decap ultron spidey because spidey was still alive after

Even if this is the case, it doesn't matter because having their throat torn out still kills every member of your team.

spidey scaling

Spider-Man is strong, please stop contesting this point (this a 2-foot thick steel door)

Az cutting

There is nothing at all stopping Creed from catching or blocking Azrael's sword and ripping it out of his hands, or ripping his arms off and the sword with it.

smoke inhalation

irrelevant

batman resists fire that incinerates bodies

These "bodies" are Arcane's Un-Men, plant structures, not actual people with bones and other, hard-to-incinerate stuff. Batman even says as much in the sequence you posted: "Phosphorous ignited Arcane's Un-Men--the blaze is eating up my oxygen."

freeze freeze good, therefore freeze fast

I have no clue how this is supposed to be Freeze's ammunition moving quickly or having anywhere near bullet speeds. It can be strong without being fast. This proves nothing, Batman still didn't dodge slow shit post-dionosium.

holly robinson

Nothing about "Catwoman trained" actually says "she has speed feats in the tier", as far as I'm concerned this is a regular violent person getting a hit in on Batman post-dionosium

shang will disarm foes with pressure points

I don't think he's ever used that on someone with even vaguely comparable speed to him.

cap dura bad lol

no not really

roundshield doesn't even cut anybody

cuts red skull's arm off

sabretooth burn?

I don't know how to more clearly illustrate how Sabretooth won't be significantly hindered by being on fire than by showing him fighting while on fire, which is what I linked. The Human Torch is also like, baseline way the fuck more powerful a pyrokinetic than any tool Batman or Azrael have.

Conclusion

About my team:

  • all strong
  • all fast
  • all durable
  • all have relevant attack vectors to my opponent and will use them at the outset
    • The kiteshield laser can cut any member of my opponent's team and kill them
    • The roundshield just kills them
    • Sabretooth's piercing will work
    • Shishio can burn the whole motherfucker down, hurting your team but not mine
    • Shishio's piercing is still relevant to all opponent characters outside of specific areas
  • Cap will use both shields because why wouldn't he
  • Cap can defend with roundshield, would already know if the kiteshield is less durable
  • Unlikely to fall to esoterics due to durability, regeneration, speed, or any combination of the three

About my opponent's team:

  • Not as fast as presented, no real speed advantage
    • Batman's feat requires huge leaps just to link up with the idea that he's reacting to the crossbow bolt
    • Azrael's feat is both not provably a dodge after fire and provably not a reaction
    • Shang is not 0.8ms, he's closer to 3 or 4, which is where my team is
  • Have no actual lifting, while my team is stronk and will dominate any grapple regardless of any skill disparity just due to massive stat advantage
  • Not particularly durable against my attack vectors
  • Could feasibly break Shishio's sword but he still hits harder than they do
    • Never responded to Guren Kaina
  • Have no proposed plan of action, whereas if it goes to a moshpit with my team the advantage is mine due to Shishio's AOE being more potent than Batman's or Azrael's as well as stat advantages
    • Kaguzuchi probably burns away all the KO gas if need be as well
  • Batman and Azrael are still sus as fuck due to my opponent's argumentation and statements regarding their speed
  • Technically have nerve strikes or something but never argued when they use them

/u/ame-no-nobuko had fun, hope you did too, thanks for the debate