r/whowouldwin • u/KenfromDiscord • Oct 02 '20

Battle Clash of Titans 4 Finals

Rules

Out of Tier Rules

As this is a debate tournament, it would be a bit silly to not be allowed to debate things. As such your debate skills will be put to the test if or when your Opponent calls your characters OOT during the Rounds. Simply debate better than your opponent and your characters will stay in the tournament. OOT arguments in the tournament proper will be handled as a separate decision from the main judgements. How this works is that, should you argue OOT, whether you were successful will be decided by a judge vote, and then the judgements will proceed taking the result of the vote into account

Battle Rules

Speed - Speed is not to be equalized in any respect for this Season of the Clash of Titans, A character's provable speed feats are what they will be entered and argued as.

Battleground:

Its Central Park. Spiderman starts at one end, your team starts at the other.

For the sake of the tourney there will be no people in Central Park, however all the animals that are normally there will be left there.

here is the Wikipedia page on Central Park for more information.

Your characters cannot leave Central Park, its an automatic loss if you do. Your characters can still interact with things outside of Central Park if they have the ability too. E.g, Magneto can still interact with the metal buildings in Manhattan however he cannot physically leave the park.

Submission Rules

Tier: Must be able to win an unlikely victory, draw/near draw, or likely victory against Spiderman in the conditions outlined above and in the hype post, Or through a capture the flag victory, also outlined in the hype post. All entrants will be bloodlusted against Spiderman, meaning they will act fully rationally and put down their opponent in the quickest, most efficient manner possible regardless of morality, utilizing any and all possible techniques/tactics/attacks if necessary. The bloodlust does not give any foreknowledge of Spiderman or his capabilities.

Debate Rules

Rounds will last 4-5 days, hopefully from Monday until Thursday or Friday of each week of the tourney; there is a 48 hour time limit both on starting (we do not care who starts, you and your opponent can figure that out) AND on responses, AND ADDITIONALLY each user MUST get in two responses or else be disqualified. If one user waits until the very last minute to force this rule to DQ their opponent without any forewarning to their opponents or the tournament supervisors, they will be removed from this tournament, no exceptions. Format for each round: both respondents get Intro + 1st Response, then 2nd response, then a 3rd response and closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. EACH RESPONSE MUST BE NO LONGER THAN THREE REDDIT COMMENTS LONG WITH A HARD CAP OF 25,000 CHARACTERS SPLIT BETWEEN THE THREE.

Brackets Here

All Rounds are 3v3s

Finals end whenever you guys are done.

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u/Ame-no-nobuko Oct 12 '20

Response 3 Pt 1.

Win Cons

  • My team good at CTF

  • My team stronger

Rebuttal

Introduction

  • Direct Fight - I detailed a large number of "indirect" fights that my team will do/give me a notable advatange.

    • Drawing them into the tunnels where 2/3 of my opponents can't see and Thor can't use his AoE. Here 2/3 of my opponents have a very low chance of tagging my team even once.
    • Draw Fem's team to an area with a lot of buildings since it would let Hawksmoor just drop buildings on them/edward and WW would be unable to fight as the ground is liquid for him (and if Thor doesn't spend time to grab and fly them away they will be swallowed up by the street. If Thor does fly them away, my team gets free shots on them while busy
    • Fight them 3v1. I think its obvious why my team has an edge here.

  • Fem's Win Cons - Most have been addressed.

    • WW is slower than my team and as such will have trouble hitting them, Batman can magnetize her gear out of the way.
    • Batman has taken more powerful electric blasts than what Thor has to offer, Hawksmoor can weaken the affect and Vixen eats electricity/can just copy the power and counter manipulate.
    • Ripping is not some unique type of loading condition. The blunt force feats I've provided put my team way over normal human dura, which is all Edward has ripped apart

  • My Win Cons - Nah. I've given a large number

    • Batman has like half a dozen options that one shot, and has stealth so meme no one will be able to stop him from getting the drop
    • Vixen has a few powers that one shot and can copy Thor's lightning that one shots WW and Edward
    • Hawksmoor can drop buildings on people/have the ground eat them up/etc.
    • Plus my team has better blunt force and can win a slug match

Note my opponent seems to think my team won't stick together, but they will. Vixen has done one mission across her entire career solo, Batman regularly works with and fights with teams as does Hawksmoor.

CTF

  • Mind Reading - My team would instantly know that my opponents team knows where my flag is located. As pointed out she is aware of the powers near her to a very high degree of precision. Knowing what they can/can't do, etc. This means she will know Edward can read minds and that Thor can TP. All strategies developed by Batman will take that in mind. Also Hawksmoor will be aware as soon as they TP.

    • Also Edward can't read memories. He can only read the thoughts as the person thinks them. The only way this strat works is if Vixen immediately thinks in detail how to get to the flag before copying some TP immunity.
    • Teleportation - Thor has never teleported into a deep underground location like where my flag is located. He also won't have sufficient info to teleport accurately. On my team only Hawksmoor will have the entire map of the area downloaded into his head, and only Batman has the x-ray vision to see above ground. If Vixen went with them to plant the flag. All she knows is "theres a hole near x or y landmark, we went right and ran for 5 minutes". Thor has never teleported with such limited info before. This all assumes Vixen thinks all of that detail. Most likely all Edward gets is "they're in a dark location"

  • My Team - My opponent drastically misunderstands my argument. My team isn't going to drastically split up. At most 1 might leave to go get the flag. The options are just options, highlighting how many effective choices my team has.

  • Back at Ya - My opponent and I are actually in the same position. Batman can also teleport multiple people and unlike my opponent Hawksmoor has a 100% accurate, live understanding where the flag and Fem's team is at all times.

Physicals

Batman

  • Speed - I address the movement speed stuff in the next section

    • If the first bullets just missed then there would be bullet in front of the ones shown in the third panel. My opponent might try and argue they are off panel, but as seen there are a set of bullets within 1-2 feet of them just behind them, and theres more than 1-2 feet of space in front of the closest bullets to batman. So either they shot the first round, waited, Batman jumped and then they shot the second round, or they shot the first round and those are the ones that Batman narrowly avoided. Even if you don't accept that feat this feat is explicetly bullet timing
    • The activated ability is used sparingly because he has only one charge/use of it on his base battery. However as noted he can use energy blasts like Vixen's or Thor's to recharge it, given him effectively an unlimited uses, so he won't be as sparing.

  • Stealth - Again my opponent misunderstands how I am arguing stealth. I am arguing that either it gives Batman one free hit or a free hit, and then he can run away and do it again in a bit (Guerrilla).

    • Almost all of his esoterics are instant. His heat vision is explicetly some form of light as at 0.08% of its power it just sun burns, the gas takes longer, but if they are underground its not like they can run anywhere else without giving up on the flag as the gas will fill the entire volume. For everything he throws I have provided a feat, he can throw them at supersonic speeds to achieve this it would also mean that his limbs are travelling at/near supersonic speeds.

  • Durability - Yes, he is visiting the woman who gave him the stone because he realizes its corruptive influence. His armor is damaged, but he himself is fine. [more]. Note even without this enhancement Batman can take hits from Bane who is a 15 tonner and Killer Croc who can lift a school bus and tear through vault doors

    • Piercing - The "tanks things that can shred metal" feat is easily enough to deal with what Edward can do. WW's sword is trickier, but Batman's skill easily makes up for it. He can disable her arm with a nerve strike, or just disarms her
    • Pulled Apart - Again, being pulled apart and being punched are just different applications of force and they scale. The human body is about 1.5x better in compression than tension, but even 2/3rds of my teams dura is still leagues better than ripping off the arms of random humans.
    • Poison - Batman has inhuman levels of drug and poison tolerance. Edward's poison won't impact him

  • Offense - With sufficient force a concrete wall would absolutely shatter like that. Concrete is a fairly brittle material afterall. Its a warehouse, they generally build most of the walls out of the same material. Theres no reason to think otherwise. Even if it wasn't concrete though its still good. He takes a multi ton object and chucks it hard enough to send it flying dozens of feet and destroy itself.

    • The other Randori stone user did all of the damage seen in such a short time period that it was still hot under infrared when Batman got there. We are talking on the order of a minute or two to decimate an entire intersection
    • Using Gear - Well Batman is in the Insider Suit and in all two full fights he was in with that he used every feature the suit had at least once, and in the shorter fights he basically always used speed force and heat vision. In general he's used poisons a shit ton and of course he uses batarangs and explosives since those are his most basic weapons.
    • Opening - I mean with the insider suit he clearly favors heat vision, but even if he opens with batarangs so what? He can throw them at supersonic speed, meaning at mid/close range my opponents team can't dodge them. Considering he can throw a ton of batarangs at once they'll shred whoever they hit. Doing massive damage to muscles and start the timer for them bleeding out.
Vixen

2

u/Ame-no-nobuko Oct 12 '20

Response 3 Pt 2.

  • Options - As mentioned Vixen innately understands the powers of those around her. As such she will be aware of what abilities and physicals everyone has. This also means she knows their weaknesses. That means she will be aware that her foes say can't take Thor lightning, so why wouldn't she take it? She can also just switch between powers as need be.

    • Its not that unclear, she'll choose whatever power is most useful in the given instance she's in. Since she knows everyones strengths/weaknesses she can leverage that

  • Attack Speeds - Electricity moves at lightspeed through air.

    • It means that Vixen can swap powers at dumb fast speeds

  • Tunneling - Vixen can literally take on the scent profile of animals and even turn into them. Unless Edward is on the lookout for a "mole" entering the cave then his senses mean jack shit

Hawksmoor

  • Tunnel Lights - Those are subway tunnels in use. The tunnel I am placing the flag in is an abandoned, bricked up line that runs under central park. I doubt that the city is paying to light up a tunnel that no one should be in.

    • TP argument addressed earlier

  • Contained Spaces - Thor certainly can't do his massive AoE lightning and the flash of the lightning would blind him/his allies, while as shown by team can fight completely blind. I think its pretty clear why gas fills a tube better than a open space.

  • Enviro Manip - Insider the subway line Hawksmoor can still liquify the ground, making it impossible for WW And Edward to fight and considering that he can make it liquid for some people and not for others it'll have zero impact on my team. If my opponent enters the subway WW and Edward are 100% useless and in the best case scenario Thor can escape out with both of them.

    • If Edward wants to cross one of the many roads or paved paths he has to step on concrete/asphalt, ditto for entering the subway line. Can't avoid it if he's trying to get my teams flag.

  • Liquid Speed - It takes no time. The ground just instantly becomes liquid. The only "time" component is how long it takes for people to sink into it, which seems to be a few seconds. Hawksmoor's powers work because he has broad control over the physics of a city, with him being able to just tell things to get stronger, turn into a liquid, etc and they instantly do.

    • Structures - Its slow sure, but its also hard to dodge when you have a skyscraper falling on you
    • Electromagnetism - Its electromagnetism, its lightspeed? Whats to understand?

  • Durability - Hawksmoor isn't going to engage them in a head to head fight. As pointed out he's going to do what he always does phase through the ground to get surprise attacks and then throw shit at them from far away

  • Speed - I think the likelihood that the artist drew 5 bullets about to hit him and 5 hit the thing he's hiding behind as coincidence to be low. Especially since they are using old style of volley fire, and another volley wasn't called for

    • He hits Midnighter once and Midnighter hits him 2 times, seems pretty close.
    • Regardless he reacted to the missiles. The missiles were launched from fairly far away, and he didn't notice them until they were like 15-20 feet away
Edward

  • Offensive - The diamond claim is irrelevant. The exact wording is they are as hard as diamond. As my opponent wants to argue that tensile and compressive forces aren't the same (fair enough), then hardness is certainly not even close to either. Cutting granite is pretty easy we have saws that can do that. In terms of pulling apart Granite has a tensile strength of 25 Mpa, the human bones has that of 135 Mpa, so over 5x higher, and this isn't even superhuman like my team.

    • Hawksmoor drowns Edward in the street.
    • Edward's teeth aren't stronger than Batman's "batarangs that shred metal do nothing to him" skin

  • Durability - Vampires vary in power. Emett is explicetly stronger than Edward and Edward is faster. It would be like using feats for a professional lifter to argue I can lift 800 lbs or something because "we draw our abilities from the same power". The reason Batman shares his abilities are A. I stipped it B. Batman literally took the magic gem that the first guy used to do his feats and absorbed its powers

    • People don't no sell it no, but I nothing in that sentence infers Edward "no sells" it just that it isn't a safety concern. Me being punched in the gut generally won't hurt me in any serious way, but it would hurt and knock me to the ground.
    • The batarangs aren't going to pierce through his entire body, but they can even before his strength was amped embed themselves halfway into concrete walls. They're easily going to pierce a few inches into his skin, hurt like hell and they might be acid or electric or explosive

  • Mind Reading - Why would it be active? What makes active the default position for resisting mind reading? Especially since Hawksmoor wasn't even aware that Battalion was trying to enter his mind up until then. They were on the same team, and they've been allies for a decade by that point.

    • Batman - Uh theres no reason the mind bombs have to be nearby? All it literally is just Batman thinking of a ton of fucked up shit quickly. If Edward can read his mind, then if Batman is thinking of messed up stuff he'll read that. Batman through willpower can use their psychic connection to enter Edwards mind and put him into a coma. Plus he won't even get into his head to begin with. He has his psychic shield.
Thor/WW

Conclusion

In summary

/u/feminist-horsebane

1

u/feminist-horsebane Oct 15 '20

Ok

Part I: Introduction

Part II: Ame’s Team Getting My Flag

1

u/feminist-horsebane Oct 15 '20
  • If Vixen goes for the flag
    • This is the least likely option as my opponent admits and I probably don’t need to be wasting time on it but on the off chance one of you dumbass judges is seriously convinced by “but what if mole vixen”
    • My team will sense Vixen coming through mind reading and senses. Her tunneling through miles of earth towards my team seems like something that would get noticed by the guy who can hear bug legs brushing across dirt.
    • She shows up in Ramble Cave. She’s in a 3v1. There is no magic combination of powers present that lets her resist everything my team can do simultaneously to her. If she copies Thors durability, she gets restrained due to no good lifting feats by Edward or Dianna. If she copies Dianna’s durability, she gets one shot by Thor since she lacks the durability to take his blasts. If she copies Edwards, she gets killed by Dianna’s piercing or 30 ton restraining, Thors lightning, etc. If she engages with her base durability, all of the above can happen.
  • Conclusion:
    • Ame outlined two most likely strategies for his team.
    • Both involve leaving behind the one person who can give my team warning when they leave.
    • Both involve an interpretation of my opponents abilities that isn’t backed up by their actual feats or scans and involves stretching their abilities in a taffy puller to give Ame an advantage.
    • Both involve my team eventually finding out where my opponent is, my opponent end up being trapped in a 3v1, and getting dicked.
    • The third, less likely strategy ends the exact same way.

Part III: Achieving Ame’s Flag

  • My Team Knows Your Flags Location
    • Edward can, as has been shown, read at the very least Vixen’s mind from any distance. Her only prevention against this would be to choose the very specific power of defending her mind. As there is no sufficient evidence ever presented showing she will know of my teams abilities from miles away, she has no reason to choose this ability for her limited repertoire when there are other skills, durabilities, techniques, gear, etc she can copy from her team that seem much more relevant.
    • Ame claims that Vixen doesn’t even know where her own flag is. This strikes me as incredibly and ludicrously unlikely. Batman not telling their heaviest hitter where the object she needs to defend is seems like the kind of grave tactical error that it would just be ludicrous to make. Even if it’s true, Vixen has incredible senses- Ame argues as much- and Edward can read senses in peoples mind. She will know where her flag is, therefore so will Edward and thus, my team.
  • My Team Can Reach Your Flag
  • Outnumbered
    • As I have argued consistently, my team will start the match by defending their flag. They have no reason to leave their easily defensible position unless they believe doing so is an easier and safer course to victory than defending their own flag.
    • Ame has repeatedly, in every round argued that his team will seek to achieve my flag for victory. As was previously shown, any attempt at achieving my flag just weakens his team by placing them in 3v1’s where they can’t win.
    • This means that when my team makes a play for Ame’s flag, they will already be outnumbered. If Hawksmoor has gone for my flag, he’s dead and can’t forewarn anyone of an impending attack or attempt to trap my team. If Batman has gone, they have lost their stealther, leaving behind two people with insufficient durability to defend the flag. If Vixen has gone, they’ve lost their heaviest hitter.
    • In a 2v3, the 3 always wins. Edward and Dianna can hold off whoever is defending the flag while Thor teleports away and wins.
  • Ame’s flags defenses
  • Conclusion:
    • My team knows where your flag is. Thor can bring the group there at his leisure.
    • The most likely string of events, as concluded by both parties, leaves Ame’s group crippled by the time mine arrives.
    • The defenses of “can’t teleport inside, it’s dark in the cave, instant asphalt trapping” are all blatantly false.
    • Ame’s team cannot prevent mine from stealing his flag if they are outnumbered.

Part IV: Rebuttals

Most of the stuff that came up just frankly is not relevant at this juncture.

  • Speed
    • Literally none of the speed feats posted for Ame’s team are as good or as clear as he thinks. “WW is slower than my team and as such will have trouble hitting them” is just a wrong statement.
    • This bullet timing feat of Batman's doesn't prove he's running faster than bullets just by the lack of bullets in front of him that could, as you yourself pointed out, just be off panel. If we apply your own level of scrutiny to this feat, these pistols have multiple shells in the air behind them, meaning they’ve already been fired several times by random goons before Batman can do anything. The scan of Batman getting handled by a bullet timer and failing to move in time to react to a bullet fired from across the street on a building top you’ve posted are evidence enough that bullets and bullet timers overwhelm Batman.
    • This Hawksmoor feat isn't provably bullet timing. These bullets clearly aren’t all hitting at the same time as some are mid air, some have already landed on further away targets, some have landed on the ground when they’re all fired from the same type of gun. The bullets in mid air in panel two clearly wouldn’t land on where the bullets in panel 3 did. The Midnighter scaling similarly just proves bullet timers outreact Hawksmoor.
    • Using this feat to imply Vixen reacts and activates her powers in light speed timeframes is just shameful. Electrocutioner has no feats implying light speed attack time and fictional lightning should never just be assumed to be a 1:1 equivalent with real electricity. Real electricity would just arc back into Electrocutioner. Even if we take this feat at Ame’s interpretation, we can see Vixen in this same scan is aware of what’s going to be attacking her and what to do before he’s fired.
    • I’ve said this in every round. None of this proves that your team can keep up with someone who objectively fights and reacts in 10ms, someone who moves their hands in bullet relevant timeframes and grabs arrows out of the air, or someone who is as fast as i’ve shown WW to be. They’re just isolated speed feats.

1

u/feminist-horsebane Oct 15 '20
  • Relevant Offense/Durability.
    • In the case of Edward, claiming that striking and ripping someone apart are the same thing because they’re just “different applications of force” is a gutless argument. Piercing, lifting, concussive, and slicing are all “different applications of force’ but we don’t treat them as all being the same thing. This is clearly, as i’ve explained, not just a regular human being ripped apart. Human hands do not crawl around on the ground after being ripped off.
    • Argued to open with Heat Vision or batarangs. The Heat Vision does not have a clear speed, “it’s light therefore it’s lightspeed” is something Star Wars wankers say about blaster bolts and shouldn’t be taken seriously without feats, especially when we see it failing to land in this same scan. Thor and Wonder Woman both have resisted better heat vision.The Batarangs won’t pierce Thor or Dianna or Edward, they fail to even fully pierce the regular people they’re thrown at in these scans. His secondary methods of attack such as tasers, pressure points, disarming, magnets, acid, and whatever else have never worked on someone as durable as anyone on my team. Most of the scans provided are vs random goons or even failing to incap people when used.
  • Power Copying
  • Mind Shit
    • It’s pretty obvious at this point that Edward can read Vixen’s mind unless she coincidentally chooses the one power that could prevent this from the slew of available powers.
    • Hawksmoors ability to actively defend his mind at all times is still vague.
    • I will concede the Batman argument, it isn’t relevant at this point, though I struggle to understand why Batman would defend his mind with the one offense that could feasibly help when the scan it’s used in is under completely different circumstances and he apparently has like twelve different and easier means to resist mind reading.

Conclusion

  • At this point in the match, there are only two relevant outcomes. Batman/Hawksmoor going for my flag and getting it before my team can stop them, or my team fighting them off and then stealing their flag when they’re disadvantaged.
  • Batman and Hawksmoor have both been argued to operate independently to get my flag. They arrive in a 3v1 where neither has the travel speed feats or means to escape. If they opt for a direct confrontation, they lose in a 3v1. If they opt to steal the flag, they need to get by my team still, and lose in a 3v1.
  • Now outnumbered, my team goes to their flag, where the only thing waiting for them is a handicapped team and insufficient defenses. With two people to distract free, they cannot stop Thor from grabbing the flag, charging his hammer and teleporting away to victory.
  • There is not any reasonable permutation of events in this match that ends with me losing.

1

u/feminist-horsebane Oct 15 '20

Out of Tiers

I do not like making out of tier requests. I find debating the in tier status of characters significantly less enjoyable than debating a proper debate between characters. I find winning through out of tiers to be a stale victory, and I have neglected to make out of tiers I thought I could succeed in making in the past because of this. I am not a fan of the fact that what will inevitably happen now is Ame will respond to my out of tiers with out of tiers of his own, rendering most of our 3-3 comment debate to be pointless and just creating a contest of whoever is left with people standing. However this has gotten to the point where Ame’s arguing his team as pretty shamelessly out of tier in a way that puts what he attempted with Geo Force or Captain Comet or Wonder Woman to shame (ironic in a tourney where the bar for being in tier is set at higher than normal), and that I’d feel frankly embarrassed not calling him out on. The in-tier explanations he gave in tribunal are either entirely irrelevant on how he argues his character, blatantly different from what he claimed, or both. I’m not going to mince words here, we are all aware of how Ame’s goals are to hyper optimize for a tier setter and make strange or convoluted lore arguments about how the tier setter can beat them but quite literally no one else can. I’d like the judges to keep in mind the phrase “No bullshit”.

Part I: Hawksmoor

Part II: Batman -

Part III: Vixen

Hawksmoor, Batman, and Vixen each have the means to perfectly teleport and snag the opponents flags. Hawksmoor, Batman, and Vixen are each given in tier justifications based on a fight with Spider-Man that they literally have no reason to engage in and that Ame argues they’ll actively avoid, and those justifications have been argued against by Ame at every turn. Hawksmoor, Batman and Vixen perfectly cover each others flaws that any normal tournament would no bullshit them on sight, let alone a tournament that has a stricter policy of being in tier such as a 8/10 limitation on beating the tier setter and the need to be in tier both in CTF and in a straight forward fight, neither of which can be said about anyone on my opponents team. I know that Ame will of course, now triple OOT my team as well out of spite and the result will be our 3-3 goes to waste and it’ll just turn into “whoever has a character left standing wins”, which is a shame, so i’d like to ask for some feedback about the match as it happened in addition to the OOT requests.

2

u/Ame-no-nobuko Oct 15 '20

OOT Rebuttal

As Ken noted, the primary test for OOT is a 1v1, so any argument Fem makes related to a 3v3 I will treat as if its making the claim that my team's synergy makes them nearly unbeatable.

Hawksmoor

  • Physicals - First of all Hawksmoor is weaker than Peter. His reaction is about twice as slow, his striking speed notably slower, he has okay durability and okay strength, but he's not at Peter's warps a 20 ton door level

  • City Manipulation - Throughout my argument I highlighted how Hawksmoor was limited by being in a park. Even the scan my opponent uses to argue his case has such a limitation, he can't finely control dirt and the like. Other examples are that my entire "traps in liquified ground" was explicetly limited to paved regions and my argument relied on drawing my opponent to these areas (even if Peter's spidersense didn't warn him it was a trap, the fact he can use webbing to get out, as its not sticky just liquid, makes it irrelevant. Note this is why I never claimed the liquification would do anything to Thor, who can fly)

  • Speed - The speed referenced is movement speed, which never came up in our debate. Peter can move at 110-180 mph per the tier setter RT. Hawksmoor doesn't have any running or movement speeds beyond barely outracing a car that was maybe going 20 something mph max. Peter is way faster. Phasing doesn't increase his speed. Even if we generously assume Hawksmoor can run without tiring himself at 30 mph, it would take him ~5 minutes to get across the park (2.5 miles) to where Peter started, while it would take Peter 0.8-1.4 minutes.

    • This also means that outside of predicting Peter's path he can't intercept him to stop him either when he's on the way to the flag or after he has the flag on the way back.
    • Its also like a mile tops for the flag, assuming thats where Hawksmoor hides it. My argument partially relied on Batman being a meme strategist to argue he'd hide it in that specific spot.
    • So basically if Hawksmoor goes for Peter's flag it would take him 10 minutes to get there and back to his flag. In terms of transit time it would take Peter 0.8-1.4 minutes to get to the hole and 0.33-0.54 minute to get the flag at the end of the tunnel. So in total thats 1.13-1.94 minutes of tranist, meaning he has 8 minutes to find the hole to the tunnel.

  • Finding the Flag - So while Peter can move faster, Jack does have an edge in that he knows where the flag is. Considering all the time it would take and that any hole Jack could make would have to be fairly large (at least a dozen feet) theres a reasonable chance Peter finds it.

So basically if one goes for a flag/they decide to fight Peter wins. If both go for the flag Jack probably wins, but its not 100%.

Batman

  • Physicals - Shipping containers weigh 1-2 tons each. There were 13 shown as being thrown/deformed, which only puts it (13-23) a little better than Peter's warps a 20 ton door feat and below his lifts 40 ton feat. Also yeah I was mostly talking about strength.

    • Heat Vision - All of the insider suit features require a recharge time thats pretty long. If he uses heat vision he will have to wait 4 hours before he can use it again as the scan I linked notes. 4 hours is longer than this fight will last, so Batman can use it once. The only exception to this is if Batman's foe uses an energy attack, then he can recharge, but Spider-man doesn't so its moot. Heat vision also charges/heats up before firing, so it gives him plenty of time for Spider-sense to warn him and dodge. Plus as shown earlier Peter can aim dodge lasers fine.
    • Batarangs - Supersonic batarangs are no more dangerous than bullets, Peter dodges those just fine.
    • Explosive batarangs - The plane Batman blew up wasn't like a giant passenger plane, its a small private jet all it did was blow up a small area. Considering surface area + that Peter has decent explosive resistance it wouldn't do "fight changing" damage.
    • The Rest - In his official tourney RT he has resistance far beyond the "works on normal humans" durability for acid, electricity, etc. Most of Bruce's esoterics are useless on him.

  • Faster - Batman has slower running speed, and slightly slower reaction. Teleporting doesn't help as like all features of the Insider Suit it can only be used once, and then he has to wait a few hours. So like I guess he could use it to escape a bad situation, but then he's SOL. The speedforce amp is in the same boat. It'll let Batman blitz Peter once and get a good hit in or escape. Then it has a 12 hour recharge time. Note it only lasts long enough for Batman to travel a dozen feet so its not like he can use it to steal the flag.

  • Stealth - Batman can't spam retreats against Spider-man like he can against my opponents team because unlike Thor Spider-man doesn't shoot energy to recharge Batman's suit as his primary attack. So from the get go its a nonviable strategy. Spider sense can explicitly detect things Peter's senses can't so Bruce's meme stealth is in the same boat as Hawksmoor's phasing.

  • Skill - Thats not what I was arguing at all? A. This argument had nothing to do with Batman/nor mentioned him B. Its talking about how technique can making someone hit harder than their raw lifting strength indicates. Batman uses that technique in every punch he makes, so the feats I provided is how hard he hits.

  • Vixen can recharge The Insider Suit - Sure, but not in the middle of a fight. If my team is fighting 3 Spider-men, Vixen would have to give up one of her powers to switch to one that can charge Batman, turn towards Batman and use an action. That basically would give Peter multiple free hits on her. The cost/benefit isn't there.

  • CTF - Like with Hawksmoor Peter is just faster. Batman can teleport but he has no clue where the flag is, so its not like he can just teleport to the flag. He also can't hide it underground/won't know so its even easier for Peter to find

Essentially most of Bruce's gear isn't as effective against Peter, the Insider Suit is a one and done deal and spider-sense fucks over his stealth.

3

u/Ame-no-nobuko Oct 15 '20

Vixen

Just off the get go I'd like to point out my opponent completely misunderstands how Vixen's powers work. She operates not by copying complete powersets, but by copying individual aspects of a entity. Like she takes on the specific attributes like WW's strength or speed of a jaguar. Throughout this I argued she could copy 5-7 powers. Spider-man has more than that. He has his strength, durability, speed, endurance, agility, spider-sense, webbing, skill and wall crawling. Wall crawling isn't especially combat relevant, but the rest are. If he loses strength Peter just tanks her hits, durability he one shots her, speed he blitzes her and she never hits him, endurance and he outlasts her, agility and he has an edge in dodging, spider-sense would basically be a soft speed bump, webbing gives him range and skill obviously makes him better across the board. But she has to drop one of these attributes, since at most she can copy 7.

  • Teammates - With that in mind, if Vixen wanted to copy my team she'd need to sacrifice something of Peter's and be in the same situation. Batman also has strength, speed, dura, agility, endurance, skill and all his gear is a separate thing to copy, and Hawksmoor has strength, speed, dura, agility, endurance, skill, enhanced senses and his city manipulation. She could hybridize I guess, but it would end up making her slower/less durbale/weaker than Peter in trade for more versatility.

  • Goku - Yeah. Goku has strength, dura, agility, endurance, speed, skill and ki powers (7), so Vixen can copy all of him without sacrificing anything. If she wants to trade his skill for Batman's or his agility (which isn't great) for a healing factor it would make her a better Goku and Goku + some powers > normal Goku. Peter has more powers

  • Her Animal Powers - The venom is venom, I don't think its going to regularly hit Peter since shes' spitting it at him, Peter can take hits from electro, way more than an electric eel. Also not all of these are at the cost of one of Peter's abilities. If she wants claws she's either going to be weaker/slower/less durable/skilled etc.

/u/KenfromDiscord