r/whowouldwin • u/Verlux • Jan 25 '21
Event The Great Debate Season 11 Round 3!!!
Rules
Out of Tier Rules
- For Out of Tier requests, simply ping myself and/or Chainsaw__Monkey and state your case for why you believe someone's combatant is out of tier, then proceed with the debate as per normal. We will evaluate that request individual of the debate itself and make our decision in judgments. Reminder: the Head Judges maintain the right to DM any user we believe to be skirting OoT lines and make our own OoT accusation, with said user having 48 hours to defend themselves.
Battle Rules
Speed - Speed is not to be equalized in any respect for this Season of the Great Debate. A character's provable speed feats are what they will be entered and argued as.
Battleground: The Great Debate arena has traveled across fiction, from a coliseum, to the Mines of Moria, to Asgard herself. Now, however, we take on what is potentially our most game-changing map to date, one very dark and foreboding; one might even call it quite bleak: Prepare to fight all over Bleake Island. A sprawling cityscape perfect for web-slinging wall-crawlers to find assault opportunities abound, it also enables persons to initiate some very out-of-the-ordinary strategies that most prior seasons would not have allowed. Combatants start opposite each other atop the tallest building in the city, the Clock Tower, a building that gives one a full view of the entire city whilst atop it. Combatants start 12 meters apart from one another, on opposite sides of the tower's roof, and in team scenarios they are in a line spaced 2 meters apart from one another, appearing in sign-up order from left to right. Every combatant starts each round being 'teleported' into the arena, knowing full well whomever they face down needs to die or be incapacitated in order for they themselves to advance and win and will do so. All combatants begin without any weapons drawn or abilities active, hands idle at their sides, weapons holstered, and the moment they teleport in they can begin combat. All combatants are in-character for the tourney itself, and importantly all combatants have an accessible HUD (that interferes none at all with their vision and cannot be interfered with via any means, magical technological or otherwise) that displays a layout of Bleake Island. Of special note: the city limits cannot be exited under any circumstance, with an invisible 'wall' preventing persons from exfiltrating the island; you're stuck on the island, for better or worse. Natural phenomena, such as lightning or rain for example, can absolutely permeate said wall, however. OF ESPECIAL NOTE, THE CLOCKTOWER ROOF DOES INDEED HAVE THAT GIANT SLANT IN IT, YES YOU CAN USE THIS TO YOUR TACTICAL ADVANTAGE.
Submission Rules
- Tier: Must be able to win an unlikely victory, draw/near draw, or likely victory against Ultimate Spider-Man in the conditions outlined above and in the hype post. All entrants will be bloodlusted against Spidey, meaning they will act fully rationally and put down their opponent in the quickest, most efficient manner possible regardless of morality, utilizing any and all possible techniques/tactics/attacks if necessary. The bloodlust does not give any foreknowledge of Spidey or his capabilities.
Debate Rules
Rounds will last 4-5 days, hopefully from Monday until Thursday or Friday of each week of the tourney; there is a 48 hour time limit both on starting (we do not care who starts, you and your opponent can figure that out) AND on responses, AND ADDITIONALLY each user MUST get in two responses or else be disqualified. If one user waits until the very last minute to force this rule to DQ their opponent without any forewarning to their opponents or the tournament supervisors, they will be removed from this tournament, no exceptions.
Format for each round: the one to go first gets an Intro + 1st Response, their opponent replies in kind, then both get a 2nd response, then a 3rd response in a back-and-forth style, and a closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. EACH RESPONSE MUST BE NO LONGER THAN THREE REDDIT COMMENTS LONG WITH A HARD CAP OF 25,000 CHARACTERS SPLIT BETWEEN THE THREE.
Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are determined by randomization. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa. First Round will be determined by coin flip.
Brackets Here
Determined by coin flip, the first round shall be:
1v1 Individual Fights, randomized as follows:
| First Listed Person's Lineup | Versus | Second Listed Person's Lineup |
|---|---|---|
| Character 1 | Character 1 | |
| Character 2 | Character 3 | |
| Character 3 | Character 2 |
1
u/Ame-no-nobuko Jan 28 '21 edited Jan 28 '21
Response 1 - Pt 2
Supreboy v. Loz
Loz's Strength Sucks
The Feats Suck...
Loz's best feat by far is shattering the base of this large tree, this is equal or smaller area as Superboy's numerous durability
However unlike Superboy's feats which are mostly concrete, if not metal, Loz's is wood
...And He Had Help
Since this is a fairly deep lore dive, I'll start out stating my intention of this section: to prove that Loz's gauntlet is a kinetic weapon that amps his striking notably.
Part 1: Dual Hound = A Pile Bunker
On Loz's left hand he has a weapon called Dual Hound, there is significant evidence that this is a kinetic weapon called a pile bunker/driver:
WoG
In the FFVII Reunion Files (a "how it was made" book discussing the movie Loz is from), we get an image of Dual Hound with some notes from the writer
The weapon is explicetly called as such in Loz's bio for the game Final Fantasy Brave Exvius
Functionality
When he punches Tifa for the first time we see that the pistons have been extended, and then see them re-engage
When he later whiffs a punch and hits the wall, we see that the pistons have been extend in the last frame
A audible click can be heard and we see that the pistons have been fired forward on another punch he whiffs
In his two final hits on Tifa, an audible click and pneumatic sound can be heard + we see that the pistons have moved/engage both times
*Part 2: The Dual Hound Contributes to Striking
As shown in the last part, Loz's gauntlet is a pneumatic powered kinetic weapon, this section seeks to prove that it contributes to basically every one of his hits, with various types of evidence:
Circumstantial
Every single one of his punches that do any notable amounts of damage involve his left hand, the one with Dual Hound on it
He Uses It A Lot
See previous "Functionality" Section for proof that essentially every punch he threw in the Tifa fight clearly used it
In his fight with Cloud one of the few hits that connects also the has the distinct blue electrical charge of the piston going off
His Punches Rarely Connect
In his fight with Tifa his two final blows never actually tag her. The first one clearly stops just before her stomach and then the piston goes off, and the second he's holding her with that hand when the piston pops off
Another attack, visibly falls short, with an audible clicking noise, but still sends his foes flying back
Additionally note that the objective feats that the pile driver objectively did by itself like obliterating a stone pillar would represent a large chunk of the force/energy needed to achieve Loz's feats
Part 3: Why It Matters
I've shown that Loz's gauntlet is a kinetic weapon that contributes much of the force of every one of his strikes, but why does that matter?
Simple: Superboy can disassemble any mechanical system using his TTK, and its something he does very often.
This means if Superboy touches him his gauntlet and a lot of his strength is gone
Superboy can also disassemble things indirectly for example her he disassembles restrains designed so he can't touch them by touching a guard, whose touching the floor which is touching the restraints, so as long as Loz is on the ground Superboy can remove the gauntlet
This means Superboy can strip Loz of much of his striking strength with Loz having no real defense
Loz's Dura Sucks
His dura is exclusively scaling to Tifa, but Guy uses feats from the FF7 remake which altered/changed a ton of background lore and central premise is that destiny/fate is being altered.
Advent Children takes place 2 years in the future of the original game, there's no evidence that, that Tifa shares the capabilities of a Tifa from a radically different alternate timeline.
Loz's Speed Sucks
Loz's speed is way worst than Sueprboy's.
As mention Tifa is faster than him
Loz also briefly gets grappeled and stalemated by Rude, who as far as I can tell also isn't a bullet timer. Per the director Rude is basically normal human speed compared to Cloud, so not a bullet timer
While Cloud is likely a bulelt timer, comparablish to Superboy, Loz's track record vs him isn't good for Loz either. There fight has 3 parts
My opponent attempted to use this for speed, but if the judges notice the blue flash, thats because Cloud was suffering from a reoccurring disease/PTSD flashbacks that fucked with him throughout the movie, everything Loz does notably takes place after this.
Loz's movement is also bad it takes him ~8 seconds to cross like 100 feet and ~4 to get to Tifa
I'm Sorry, but your Loz is Retarded
As mentioned in my first response Loz is incredibly childlike, which hampers him in terms of initiative, but he's also just a complete moron, per the director and writer (per FFVII Reunion Files):
He has a lot missing upstairs and does dumb shit like mouth "vrooom, vroom" when riding a motorcycle
The VA artists even comments that he was told to speak idiotically
Basically Loz isn't going to be able to adapt or react intelligently in this fight, any strategy Guy has presented like avoiding TTK by jumping is far too intelligent for Loz to conceive.
This can be seen in basically every Loz fight where his solution is to "punch opponent hard", the most creative he ever gets is "punch an object at my opponent".
Oh and he's a crybaby
Superboy's Dura is Good
Superboy isn't hugely dazed in that scan, he just realizes he doesn't know why he's fighting the dude and decides to ask. He seems more annoyed than anything.
Secondly Superboy has a ton of dura feats, including those I linked earlier, he:
Takes a kick that warps a metal ceiling to an insane extent
Falls hard enough to fuck up asphalt
Superboy's Speed is Good
Superboy can operate at high speed just fine, he can:
Grabs a missile casually out of the air
From off panel fly fast enough to grab an arrow a foot from a man's face
The only thing "reactionary" about the main speed scan I linked, is that it was before he had full control over his TTK and he didn't know he could extend it to another person like he did.
Superboy IC Stuff
Guy claims that quips hamper, but thats false. He quips, but he is absolutely willing to play dirty and even throw down with people has no idea why he's fighting. It doesn't hurt him in fights.