r/whowouldwin • u/FreestyleKneepad ​ • Jan 30 '21

Event Character Scramble Season 14 Tribunal

Here is the sign up for the email list. If you are interested please sign up, as this will keep you up to date with an email for every Scramble post that is made, making sure that you don't miss a thing.

We also have an official Discord channel, so be sure to stop by if you want to talk about the Scramble, or just to say hi.

Tribunal is officially OVER!

Click here for the post-Tribunal (unscrambled) rosters!

And click here to fill out the Veto/Opt-Out form! It closes at 9PM PST on Saturday, February 13th, so get your vetos in fast!

Refer to the following links for easy access to all the resources you need to debate cases:

Season 14 Tier Luke Cage RT

Current list of unclaimed backups

Clev’s list of un-scrambled submissions

Signup FAQ

When Tribunal is over, a link will be posted HERE for the Veto / NSFW Opt-Out form. Keep your eyes peeled!

Featured Submissions

In an attempt to help aid the review process, we will be highlighting a section of the submissions each day to focus the lens on a group of submissions. Understand that these submissions aren’t being picked due to any reasoning or bias beyond their position on the list, our goal is to help you focus on specific parts of the submission list each day in the hopes that characters that would normally pass under the radar are given proper scrutiny.

Here are the featured submissions for today.

The link will be changed each day until we’ve covered the entire submission roster or until Tribunal has ended.

Here’s how this works.

For the next two weeks, all characters are under review. If you think a character is not in tier, whether they be too weak, too strong, too nebulous, or somewhere in between, here is where you can air your grievances. We'll be going through all of the submissions during this time, all I ask is that you follow along and call what you see.

Tribunal will end in about 2 weeks, on Saturday, February 13, when all cases are closed.

Note that this deadline is subject to change if we decide that there are unresolved issues that warrant some more time. Also, yes, I know what you’re thinking, that’s a long time for arguing about Whispy Woods. If we get done early and there’s only a couple cases left a few days before Saturday, odds are good we’ll wrap those cases up and end Tribunal early. Every remaining case will be notified if that’s happening.

If you have a problem with a character:

  • Create a comment with the name of the character in question, a link to that character sheet, and the username (with /u/ to notify them - /u/FreestyleKneepad for instance) of the submitter. Then list what questions/problems you have with the character.

  • Please be respectful when calling out characters, and remember that you are probably pointing out problems with someone's favorite character/series.

  • Keep in mind that Tribunal is for judging whether a character is too strong/weak for the tier. Whether or not you personally like the character or think they’re good/well-written has no bearing on whether or not they’re in tier.

  • Please give a detailed complaint about each character a separate reply to make sure that conversations are organized. Quick thoughts on multiple characters in one post are fine as well as long as you keep each case clearly separated.

  • Starting with the initial complaint post, each person involved gets five full posts to argue their point back and forth. If a decision is not reached by that point, judges must be called in to make a decision. If that happens, the person issuing the complaint and the person whose submission is being complained about both get one closing post to argue their case to the judges before they rule on the issue. We will allow a little lenience on this when a case involves several people arguing amongst each other as that’s difficult to manage with a limited number of posts, but if it starts to get really long-winded a GM will generally step in and force a vote.

If your character is called out:

  • First, realize this is not a personal attack. We're just trying to ensure that this tournament runs smoothly for everyone.

  • Please address the concerns brought forth, either by standing firm and arguing for your character’s inclusion, or by buffing/nerfing the character. Please keep the amount of buffs and nerfs to a minimum. This isn’t a good place to redesign the character from the ground up, and you don’t get any extra Major changes at this point. If the judges determine that it would take more than one Major change to balance the character, your character can also be ruled out of tier that way.

  • If it’s agreed that a character cannot work in its current state and can’t be easily edited, replacements from the backup submissions will be issued. If one of your characters is being removed you are free to request a specific backup to replace your submission, otherwise a GM will choose for you.

If you see a problem with the roster:

  • Make a post and let us know. Odds are, you will have to resubmit the form with the correct info so if you want to just go ahead and do that and let Free know to look for the new entry, that would save time.

  • If your problem is that you don't show up in the list, it’s because you never filled out/submitted the form... just go ahead and do that NOW, assuming that you started your sign up process before this post was created. Here’s the form. If you need to make a change because you swapped things out, just make sure you’re signed into the same account you initially used and you’ll be able to update your form. Please let Free know either on Reddit or on Discord if you do this. DO NOT CHANGE YOUR FORM IF YOU HAVE TO TAKE A BACKUP REPLACEMENT FOR ANOTHER CHARACTER. We’ll handle those swaps personally when Tribunal ends.

Judges

In order to streamline the decision making process, we have selected a small panel of judges that will help make decisions on characters where a resolution cannot be reached. And they are...

[drumroll]

/u/morvis343, /u/GuyofEvil, /u/Voeltz, /u/Cleverly_Clearly, and /u/rangernumberx

Here's how the judge system works:

  • If a submission is called out and all parties involved cannot agree as to whether the submission is in tier, ping any three of the judges.

  • Once judges are being called in, the argument is effectively over. Both sides of the argument will be allowed to post a Closing Argument which sums up their stance, their argument thus far, and any other major notes they might not have been able to touch on just yet or counter-arguments that hadn’t been answered yet. Be complete on this, as this is your last chance to get your word in before the judges decide on the case and effectively close it.

  • Three of the judges or GMs involved will then each make a statement on whether they think the character is or is not in tier and why. If they're able to come to a complete consensus, then that decision is made final. If a complete consensus is not made among the judges, then the resolution defaults to the majority decision. However, in this case, the decision can be appealed.

  • To appeal a decision, respond to the post in which the statements are made explaining why you think the arguments made were wrong or inaccurate. After an appeal is made, the remaining two judges will step in and also vote. This vote out of 5 is effectively final. If the previous vote was 2-1 and the new vote is 2-3, them’s the breaks. This is also why an initial unanimous vote among 3 is final, as changing a 3-0 vote to a 3-2 vote doesn’t accomplish anything.

  • If a final decision is made, then that decision is completely final. You cannot argue it further. If that means a character is in, they won't be brought back up again. If that means a character gets removed, your options are to choose the backup you want to replace them or let a GM choose instead. /u/FreestyleKneepad is in charge of the backup list, so ping him or have a judge ping him to get any backup swaps sorted out.

  • To be clear, GMs can do whatever they want and don’t answer to you. If we want to take the place of a judge in a vote, we will. If we want to singularly decide on something, we will (note that this will be very rare and most likely only happen near the end of Tribunal to wrap things up or in cases where something is clearly un-submittable, such as a character from a literal porn series). If we say something needs to be removed for whatever reason, what we say goes. The judges will handle the majority of the Tribunal process, we’re just here to smite shit from the heavens. That takes work, though, so expect the judges to do more judging than us.

  • If a GM takes the place of a judge in a vote, they’re effectively identical to a judge for that vote. That in mind, if the vote goes 2 to 1 and gets appealed, the remaining judges can still step in on the final 2-person vote.

Veto & NSFW Opt-Out

We will be implementing an opt-out similarly to last season, wherein after Tribunal a link will be posted here letting you designate whether or not you wish to receive a character that is considered NSFW for sexual content. We may also include extreme gore as NSFW.

Additionally, in the same form you will be asked to veto any one character. If you want to, you may designate a character, and you will be guaranteed to not receive them.

A few notes on this process:

  • A link to this form will be posted on this thread in the top section after Tribunal has ended. The link will also be posted on the Scramble Discord channel. 2 days (48 hours) after the link has been posted, the form will be locked and the GMs will prepare to scramble rosters.

  • We will not be indicating in any way what characters are and aren’t NSFW. This isn’t an opportunity for you to choose to veto a specific list of characters. This is an opportunity for you to decide whether or not you want a character with NSFW content. NSFW generally only applies to sexual content- we don’t typically include violence and gore in this opt-out.

  • While we did ask in the signup form whether your submissions were NSFW or not, final judgment falls to us as GMs. We may choose to include characters in the list that weren’t marked, and vice versa.

  • Your veto can be for any character you absolutely don’t want, whether or not they’re included in the opt-out or not. If the character is included in the opt-out, you apply for the opt-out, and you also veto the character, you do NOT get to pick a second character to veto.

  • You cannot veto your own submissions or backups you pick to replace a Tribunaled submission. If you do, the veto will be ignored.

Discord Rules on Tribunal Discussion

In order to ensure that every scrambler is equally able to contribute to the Tribunal, discussion of specific Tribunal cases will NOT BE ALLOWED on the Discord channel. Linking to a discussion with the intent to have a Discord user comment on that chain on Reddit is perfectly fine, but actual discussion of the cases will result in the users being warned the first time, and kicked the second time. We have a zero-tolerance policy on this situation.

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '21

I'm going to ignore the first part of this response, I think I've more than sufficiently shown evidence that Gilgamesh simply used stronger weapons against Berserker. Your counterpoints of "they're just higher rank" or "They're just sharper" are not based on anything, they are things that "could be possible" but you have no proof of that being them being true.

The second part is just blatantly untrue, Saber is plainly and clearly weaker than Berserker, find me one scan that actually proves that they're supposedly "equals" in terms of power.

And "She's wrong because Gilgamesh beat him" doesn't mean fucking anything at all to my point. AND, Saber doesn't know about either of Berserker's Noble Phantasms, this is again, just you using your knowledge to come to a conclusion that is impossible for the characters to come to.

These two characters are not equal, if they are not equal then your points don't make any sense.

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u/morvis343 ​ Jan 30 '21

At this point we are already going in circles and you are ignoring my points, so I guess consider this my closing arguments.

Assuming the judges start by looking at the actual submission post since a lot of important feats are there.

  • You’re choosing to ignore the point about how it doesn’t matter how good or sharp the weapon is, for the sake of Berserker or Iskandar deflecting it it matters how powerfully it’s launched from the Gate of Babylon, since we’re just looking at the kinetic force required to deflect them; the fact that some pierce Berserker and some don’t is irrelevant.

  • Berserker likely does have a small strength advantage over Saber but it’s clearly very close based on your own scans you brought in your previous comment. You brought those scans not me.

  • Her statement about “no servant can beat him” doesn’t matter at all because it’s wrong, it’s literally a character statement that we the audience have proof is incorrect. Objectively incorrect character statements are so much further down the totem pole from feats I don’t know why we would be expected to make use of it.

  • “she slowly approaches her final moment” This is dramatic flowery language, not a real indication of anything. The two characters don’t have to be exactly equal for them to be close enough for the purposes of scaling.

  • You’ve elected to ignore the combat speed points as well

I can’t judge my own sub, so the rest of them can have at me once you’ve made your closing.

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u/[deleted] Feb 01 '21

ok

First off my opponent's character requires several layers of scaling, all of which I've shown are questionable at best.

In order for Iskandar to be in-tier, it requires one of two things:

  • That Gilgamesh's attacks are always the same strength

  • That Berserker is equal to Saber

I've already cast doubt on all of these things and your counter arguments are usually just random possibilities or things that clearly are not true.

Your only argument against this is that a magic summoning attack which launches magic weapons always launches said weapons at the same "kinetic energy." The idea that in a fictional series full of magic, when talking about an attack that is three layers of magic, that the only way an attack can hit harder is if it is moving faster is frankly ridiculous. Gilgamesh literally has access to an endless assortment of weapons, it is plainly and clearly obvious that the effectiveness of these weapons varies, he makes no remark on their "sharpness" or their "rank" anything beyond "they are just better" is nothing more than a guess on your part, not anything the series itself even so much as hints at.

You saw these feats and read these descriptions and came to the conclusion that there is a "slight difference in strength" despite it being clear that the two are not even comparable. Just to top this all off and add more context to how ridiculous the gap between these two is, Berserker only uses one hand to swing his weapon.

/u/cleverly_clearly /u/guyofevil /u/voeltz

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u/Cleverly_Clearly ​ Feb 01 '21 edited Feb 02 '21

I cannot buy this scaling. The fact that Berserker is stronger than Saber by a significant margin is obvious, both from a story standpoint, and the standpoint of what we can actually see in the feats. If we're trying to guess how strong Iskandar is, acknowledging some wonky contradictory scaling chain seems less efficient than just looking at what he directly does. But, whatever. I might be willing to fudge this if he had other stats that were concretely in-tier. Unfortunately, he doesn't.

His only speed feat is this. How is this supposed to be bullet timing? Is it too good? Is it too weak? I don't know. It does look fast-ish. Unfortunately, with both of these stats being so vague, and durability needing a major change outright, I can't really call Iskandar in tier. Not in tier.

See here