r/whowouldwin • u/Verlux ​ • Aug 23 '21

Event The Great Debate Season 12 Semi Finals!!!

Rules

Out of Tier Rules

  • For Out of Tier requests, simply ping myself and/or Chainsaw__Monkey and state your case for why you believe someone's combatant is out of tier, then proceed with the debate as per normal. We will evaluate that request individual of the debate itself and make our decision in judgments. Reminder: the Head Judges maintain the right to DM any user we believe to be skirting OoT lines and make our own OoT accusation, with said user having 48 hours to defend themselves.

Battle Rules

  • Speed is not to be equalized in any respect for this Season of the Great Debate. A character's provable speed feats are what they will be entered and argued as; however, as an addendum to this tier, you can simply opt to state your character is equivalent in speed to the tier-setter in all regards, essentially a normal human being.

  • All combatants are aware of the basics of their allies' combat abilities but are in the blind on their opponents (unless they have canon knowledge of said person via sharing a fictional universe)

  • Battleground: The Great Debate arena has traveled across fiction, from a coliseum, to the Mines of Moria, to Asgard, and to ancient China. Now, however, we travel to a pretty graphic map, one which caused a lot of outcry upon its release, and just remember: no Russian. Prepare to ground all planes in the vicinity of Terminal. An airport terminal with plenty of unloaded planes, cargo, trucks for transporting freight, and other miscellany around, it's a haven for a hard-swinging cyborg to duke it out with other super-strong suckers. Combatants start opposite each on the tarmac between the two planes, precisely 10 meters' distance from each plane and 5 meters apart. Here is a useful compilation of images of the map, as well as an overhead view of the accessible area. Note: yes, the second plane is included in our version of Terminal, giving Cyborg a second fucking big metal tube to swing around. For further reference, here is a youtuber doing a 5 minute walkthrough of the entire map, and combatants will be spawning in roughly at where the youtuber is at 4:33 in the video. Combatants start 5 meters apart from one another as stated, on opposite sides of the refueling truck with both equally close to the truck and their respective plane (the first listed person in each match spawns closer to the terminal, the second listed person spawns closer to the open plane explored in the video), and in team scenarios they are in a line spaced 2 meters apart from one another, appearing in sign-up order from left to right. Every combatant starts each round being 'teleported' into the arena, knowing full well whomever they face down needs to die or be incapacitated in order for they themselves to advance and win and will do so. All combatants begin without any weapons drawn or abilities active, hands idle at their sides, weapons holstered, and the moment they teleport in they can begin combat. All combatants are in-character for the tourney itself, and importantly all combatants have an accessible HUD (that interferes none at all with their vision and cannot be interfered with via any means, magical technological or otherwise) that displays a layout of Terminal. Of special note: the tarmac, terminal, and general map layout cannot be exited under any circumstance, with an invisible 'wall' preventing persons from exfiltrating the map at the boundaries shown in the overhead display map (but allowing access to the second plane). Since it will be asked: the planes are B-737-800s, so approximately 45 tons unloaded. Assume this weight for both.

Submission Rules

  • Tier: Must be able to win an unlikely victory, draw/near draw, or likely victory against Cyborg in the conditions outlined above and in the hype post. All entrants will be bloodlusted against Cyborg, meaning they will act fully rationally and put down their opponent in the quickest, most efficient manner possible regardless of morality, utilizing any and all possible techniques/tactics/attacks if necessary. The bloodlust does not give any foreknowledge of Cyborg or his capabilities.

Debate Rules

  • Rounds will last approximately 5 and a half day days, hopefully from Monday until Saturday at noon of each week of the tourney; there is a 48 hour time limit both on starting (we do not care who starts, you and your opponent can figure that out) AND on responses, AND ADDITIONALLY each user MUST get in two responses or else be disqualified. If one user waits until the very last minute to force this rule to DQ their opponent without any forewarning to their opponents or the tournament supervisors, they will be removed from this tournament, no exceptions.

  • Format for each round: the one to go first gets an Intro + 1st Response, their opponent replies in kind, then both get a 2nd response, then a 3rd response in a back-and-forth style, and a closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. FIRST RESPONSES MUST BE NO LONGER THAN 10K CHARACTERS LONG, AND EACH SUBSEQUENT RESPONSE MUST BE NO LONGER THAN THREE REDDIT COMMENTS LONG WITH A HARD CAP OF 20,000 CHARACTERS SPLIT BETWEEN THE THREE.

  • Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are determined by randomization. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa. First Round will be determined by coin flip.

Brackets Here

Following the third round of 1v1s, the semi finals shall be:

Since the first round was 3v3, the second round shall be:

1v1 Individual Fights, randomized as follows:

First Listed Person's Lineup Versus Second Listed Person's Lineup
Character 1 Character 3
Character 2 Character 2
Character 3 Character 1

Round 4 Ends Saturday August 28th, 12:00 CST

Special Note: Here is a handy layout of the starting positions, the explicit starting distances override any alleged map irregularities

Links to:

Hype Post

Sign Ups

Round 1

Round 2

Round 3

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u/Ame-no-nobuko Aug 26 '21 edited Aug 26 '21

Response 2 Pt. 2

Rogue v. Guilliman

Offense

To address Guilliman's only really relevant durability feat:

  • If Guilliman is going all out, no holds bar because he hates Lorgar so much, why did he immediatly back off after the first attack and let a pithy exchange ensue?

    • Also mechanically how does one go about blocking a punch with a mace in a way that the majority of the force is nullified. The text doesn't specify and something like "Roboute throws a hook and Lorgar swats it aside, redirecting it" is a valid interp and far more reasonable

If the feat provided for his dura is to quote from "an entirely different set of armor", then prove that Rogue doesn't just punch through the armor and one shot Guilliman via her draining touch, because so far no evidence has been provided that the armor he is being run in can actually take a punch from her

Also note: There's literally nothing as far as I know that can stopping Rogue from tearing/uppercutting Guilliman's helmet off and just draining his face.

Rogue also hits quite hard:

Defense

Blunt Force

  • The crater for the Carol punch is through at least partially metal, and even with the superior durability that offers she still craters it a foot in or so, and it has literally no impact on her

  • The tackle isn't comparable to Rogue's durability feat. Rogue's feat is against a renforced bunker. Guilliman's is against a rusted mass of debris. Rogue goes through much more solid, much stronger material.

  • This feat being in or out of combat is irrelevant, its clear she didn't take any notably damage. She literally starts wise cracking right after

    • Per the scan she hit with a force greater than some meteors and if this was concrete it would be OOT. She made a like 30-50 ft long, easily 3 ft deep trench

  • Yeah she's reaching for the wire so she can sucker Carol with an amped punch, plus this crater is way bigger than anything Guilliman has done and Rogue wasn't actually injured in any real way

Piercing

  • The WoG is pretty clearly a simile/poetic language. If we took everything that literal and ignored the remaining context Guilliman's words literally are acid [better example]

  • There's no evidence or indication that the claw was sharped and considering . Wolverine's claws far more consistently cut metal than not. Repeatedly tears through a large metal monster, tears up a robot, etc.

  • Any bullet that has the kinetic energy to send a full grown women flying back 10+ feet with enough force remaining to destroy a pillar is far, far beyond any IRL conventional weapon

  • Sorry for the mislink. Here is the feat in question and here is the helicopter for visual comparison. The gun on the front is a 20 mm cannon

Guilliman

Blitz

Guilliman won't have time to use any of his attacks before Rogue is on top of him. Rogue goes from a standstill to faster than a fighter jet in a short distance. This is scaled around her running speed ~equal to a car. She will be moving so fast she'll nearly instantly be on top of Guilliman. As pointed out no dura feats have been provided for his current armor, so her first hit will punch through and KO him via her draining touch.

Carol Absorbing

I recommend PoB not try and argue Rogue or X-Men lore anymore, because literally everything here is wrong.

Conclusion

  • Guilliman's armor sucks and Rogue punches through it

  • Guilliman can't take Rogue out before she clocks him

  • Guilliman's scaling is suspect

Spartan v. Gaara

Offense

  • I poorly proofread my first response so some wording was bad. In this feat he only destroys the ground a few inches deep and the area is fairly limited for a dash that involves multiple steps (points of impact)

    • For this to be relevant against Spartan it would have to be a lot deeper, a lot wider and occur in a single impact, not multiple
    • We see the impact after the fight, they are certainly decent chunks, but again only a few inches deep

  • Spartan's feat is better than PoB is making it out to be. The overturned, jagged rocks on the bottom are all due to Spartan's strike, and the guy being hit is clearly at least mostly underground

PoB didn't really address my argument that this Raikage feat doesn't scale to Gaara as its a body slam, while Gaara blocked a kick. This feat also isn't incomparable to Spartan's own, so he definetly can get through the sand.

Defense

The fight is a bit longer than than the album linked. He takes 8 hits and is still standing in the end. Considering that the damage is far better than Gaara can do, it would take him a long time to whittle down Spartan's defenses

Teleportation

As I argued in R1, Spartan most likely won't try and teleport the sand away from Gaara, rather he'll teleport himself and Gaara away from the sand. This is his tendency against people with weapons.

Under this scenario, the timeframe it takes to teleport is irrelevant. Spartan can comfortably take hits from Gaara, and Gaara both will have no clue where he's teleporting to or whats going on, while Spartan will be aware of both.

  • There is no dodging Spartan's teleport. It is impossible to evade and impossible to block.

If he teleports him inside an airplane, or high into the air or in some bowel of the airport, where his sand can't quickly reach him Spartan would have plenty of time to land a good hit, and thats all it would take to KO Gaara

  • The argument isn't that Gaara can't control the sand, its that even as fast as it is, it can't cross a huge distance with barriers before Spartan blasts Gaara with a energy blast or clocks him

Addressing the specific rebuttals:

  • Every single time Spartan has engaged with foes with any weapon he has removed the weapon from play. This is an incredibly consistent trait

  • Yes, that is Void. Void Spartan is literally Spartan absorbing Void into himself, thats why he has teleportation powers, the power is from Void.

  • As of currently there are no rules stating I can't stip the techniques that Spartan can do, but keep his power in itself intact. Functionally its no different than stipping "can't use TP directly against opponents" or "can't use technopathy on opponents themselves" two stips that are very much allowed in the tourney

Conclusion

  • It will be a slog for Gaara to take down Spartan if he even can

  • Spartan can remove Gaara's only defense temporarily via teleporting

    • He gets one shot without it

  • Spartan is strong enough to break through Gaara's barrier

/u/Po_Biotic

1

u/Po_Biotic Aug 27 '21

Semis, Response 3 - Not So Short Wrap Up

Demogorgon vs. Aquaman

Aquaman's Cold

Ame brings up that I didn't contest the cold he brought up in r1, so I'll talk about it here. Here's the one feat he links for Aquaman freezing people solid.

1) You've linked one example of this. How often does Aquaman do this? Without evidence he does this all that often, why would he open with it here?

2) He's stationary and stabs his trident into the ground before doing this. If he tries this, he's just a sitting target for Demogorgon to cut him to bits.

3) Demogorgon shrugs and throws 9-ft jade spiders off of itself. He destroys reinforced stone by standing up. There is literally no reason Demogorgon can't just fucking break the ice.

4) There's no evidence this ice is particularly cold, so there's no reason to assume it just instantly incaps, and if it does, just fucking add it to the reasons Aquaman is OOT.

Demogorgon's Offense

Demo has no evidence his strength destroys sufficient volume to hurt Aquaman

Prove that they specifically had their durability enhanced in any way that makes them tier relevant

The attempt to shore up the jade spiders is nonsensical:

This proves they can break a vague amount of stone. It doesn't prove that they are as durable as say granite

  • Destroying something with a weaker material isn't exactly an easy thing to do. If the spiders were made of natural jade, breaking generic rock wouldn't be as easy as just biting it.

Additionally don't forget that the Demogorgon was smashing the spiders with basically an improvised club, which will work to increase his attack prowess

Piercing

PoB hasn't shown how much wood/stone Demo cut through.

  • It's more than what Aquaman can take.

This is most likely steel or a hard aluminum alloy as Bane forged it in a prison workshop using a hammer and anvil.

  • It could also be shitty mild steel with a poor heat treat, we really don't know.

There is a bloody bite imprint where Croc bit, so yeah it went through

This is definetly a minigun, the art might not be 1:1, but the intention of the author is pretty clear thats its a rotating set of 3 barrels

The same Humvee's gun also failed to pierce his armor

His armor holds up against Deadshot

Aquaman's Speed Boost

Aquaman moves sufficently fast to quickly cross multiple blocks with a single jump

  • Okay, what's the time frame here? You don't even allude to one. Second, why wouldn't a jump be covered under speed equalization?

Aquaman's "Magic Resistance"

Aquaman has immense magic resistance

  • This is literally just Aquaman resisting some rando's spells. We don't know what kind of spell it was or how powerful it was. We don't know how it affects normal people. The entire feat is just some dude saying Aquaman is resisting their spells. That is not immense.

  • Also, these are described as "Acolytes", which are generally low ranking in most religious organizations. So I'm skeptical they are strong to begin with.

  • Also Drow have magic resistance. Drizzt has magic resistance.

his trident appears to have some degree of anti-magic properties as well.

  • This is literally just Aquaman blocking random magical blasts. How good are they?

  • Prove it can block an invisible aura.

Rebuttals

Aquaman was trying to peacefully engage with the robot, he's literally asking for the robot to communicate more via telepathy

Aquaman looking at an eldritch being is a lot less intense than literally reading its mind, by orders of magnitudes. If reading the entities mind gives him a headache, Demo won't do shit

Also when it came down to it his connection had no impact on his combat ability

without any hesitation or fear would be scared now is laughable. I'm pretty sure that Aquaman has never shown fear on panel before.

In the absolute worst case scenario Aquaman runs away, and uses ranged attacks

  • Aquaman's one ranged strategy (ice), is ineffective on Demogorgon.

Conclusion

  • Ice bad

  • Spider durable

  • Demo stronk

  • Aqua weak to pierce

1

u/Po_Biotic Aug 27 '21 edited Aug 27 '21

Guilliman vs Rogue

If Guilliman is going all out, no holds bar because he hates Lorgar so much, why did he immediatly back off after the first attack and let a pithy exchange ensue?

Also mechanically how does one go about blocking a punch with a mace in a way that the majority of the force is nullified.

Guilliman's Armor

The armor Guilliman currently wears is more than capable of taking hits.

There's literally nothing as far as I know that can stopping Rogue from tearing/uppercutting Guilliman's helmet off and just draining his face.

  • Why would she do this?

  • I've already shown how Guilliman has absurd reactions in combat. Doing so leaves Rogue open to counter attacks.

Guilliman's Offense

As PoB himself stated the armor the guy Guilliman punched through a pillar weighs 400 kg. While I'm sure Space Marines are quite heavy, I'd be surprised they weigh enough that this feat is better than a bit over half a ton of mass

Skarbrand

  • The Skarbrand stuff still holds water. If Skarbrand outright ignores a melee attack that can punch through the metal of tank armor, but it is shredded but the Hand's bolter, that clearly shows the power of the bolter rounds.

Carol Absorbing

Probably not the best tactic on my part, yeah, but part of this is still fucky. Even if I don't know the lore, I can question some weird logic of yours.

  • You are running Rogue with Ms. Marvel's powers permanently.

  • If Rogue did not permanently have Ms. Marvel's powers in this feat, it should not apply to this match.

  • If Rogue did have Ms. Marvel's powers permanently in this fight, than this feat still wouldn't apply to this match since Rogue performed it after amping herself by absorbing Carol more.

  • This isn't some weird gotcha attempt or anything like that. Based on your own stips and the explanation you gave, these seems like the only two logical ways this can go to me. If I'm wrong, explain it please, cause as is, your stip makes no sense with the explanation you gave.

Conclusion

  • Guilliman went all out against Lorgar

  • The armor is strong

  • Skarbrand scaling holds

  • I don't know lore, but the Ame's logic is fucky

Gaara vs Spartan

Gaara's Defense

PoB didn't really address my argument that this Raikage feat doesn't scale to Gaara as its a body slam, while Gaara blocked a kick.

  • It is a generally trend in Naruto that a named move is typically more powerful than an unnamed one. I also think you are over estimating the difference between a drop kick and an elbow check.

This feat also isn't incomparable to Spartan's own, so he definetly can get through the sand.

Spartan's Defense

The fight is a bit longer than than the album linked. He takes 8 hits and is still standing in the end. Considering that the damage is far better than Gaara can do, it would take him a long time to whittle down Spartan's defenses

Teleportation

This is his tendency against people with weapons.

  • You've linked two examples of it, and Gaara's sand isn't an obvious weapon.

If he teleports him inside an airplane, or high into the air or in some bowel of the airport, where his sand can't quickly reach him Spartan would have plenty of time to land a good hit, and thats all it would take to KO Gaara

PoB claims the first feat isn't "combat", but IDK what else you would call "man aims a gun at your head with the aim of killing you". The encounter ends with the guy being killed.

Every single time Spartan has engaged with foes with any weapon he has removed the weapon from play

  • The second feat linked here has Spartan teleporting the limbs off a robot. Here Ame characterized how Spartan will act using a method of engagement he literally cannot do in this match. I don't see how this applies. ​

Yes, that is Void. Void Spartan is literally Spartan absorbing Void into himself, thats why he has teleportation powers, the power is from Void.

  • I am not questioning where his powers come from, I am questioning if Spartan provably has the same fine control as Void.

Conclusion

  • Spartan's defense is not as great as Ame claims

  • Gaara's sand is good and fast.

  • The teleportation isn't as amazing as portrayed.

1

u/Ame-no-nobuko Aug 28 '21

Response 3 Pt. 1

Aquaman v. Demogorgon

Failed to Counter

Over the course of the debate PoB failed to address/counter the following arguments:

  • Contest or comment on Aquaman's physicals save piercing

  • Never clarified how thick the walls the Demogorgon smashed were

Aquaman's Offense

Striking

  • None of PoB's scans quantify or qualify how thick the walls are. We already knew that the Demogorgon was ramming through some amount of stone.

    • This could be inch thick stone walls and be drastically under what Aquaman can dish out
    • We don't know how far into the hallway he went, or how long it was either. Claiming this is objectively enough to hurt Aquaman/takes hits from him is just not something thats been proven

  • The spiders being unnaturally durable in piercing doesn't inherently mean they are equally so against blunt force

    • It also doesn't qualify how much stronger the stone is. Jade is brittle as we both agree. It would need a significant amp to compare to concrete
    • The bite scaling to be valid would require them to operate on Newton's Third Law, but they literal run on magic, the antithesis of physics. Even if Newton's Third Law was applied, as I mentioned the amount and type of stone destroyed is vague, the force needed to destroy a fist sized chunk of gypsum is irrelevant for the tier.

  • The only provided lifting feat for Demogorgon is that he lifts "huge stalactites". He might be able to grab the truck, but he definetly doesn't have the feats for the airplanes, so after he smashes the trucks he's out of good blunt instruments.

    • To lift the planes Demogorgon would have had to demonstrably lifted 45 tons, "huge stalactites" is a very variable size and doesn't automatically mean storng enough to lift an airplane
Extreme Cold

Aquaman only had the amp where he could freeze people for the last 10 or so issues of his 2011 run, so the opportunities to use any of its powers are of course limited, however in that run he does take every opportunity has to use the range component of his trident either freezing or shocking.

  • Shocking is stipped out

  • In total over ~10ish issues he's used his ice powers at least twice. In both cases its his opening move.

Aquaman only needs to be stationary to do the mass of ice spikes he can clearly do it on contact if he desires to.

  • As argued, Aquaman can and may just jump out of Demogorgon's reach

The magic that creates the ice is clearly cold enough to quickly freeze water either in the ocean (salt water) or whats in the air.

  • So decreasing the temp to about -2 C

  • Freezing critical organs like the Demogorgon's head would absolutely do real damage. Quickly dropping the temp of the air around his head to -2 C and trapping him in solid ice would at worst be a massive distraction and at best damage its sight or head itself. This is especially true as things like Demogorgon's eyes likely wouldn't survive being frozen

  • Cyborg has "significant" cold resistance per Chainsaw, and no vulnerable organs for Aquaman to target.

Aquaman's Defense

Piercing

  • It isn't more than what Aquaman can take. If its more wood than stone or only a few inches of stone, Aquaman's Killer Croc scaling (in the scan his teeth break off, which is where the blood is coming from) seems pretty relevant

    • Even mild/low carbon steel on average has a much higher compressive strength than granite (which the walls provably aren't equal to).

The art for the Aquaman vs. Military issue seems to be inconsistent and non sensical, I don't think anti-feats from it are relevant:

In terms of tracking damage between pages, its pretty clear the comic isn't consistent.

  • Deadshot isn't just shooting a gun underwater randomly, he's on a mission for the US government, pretty sure they'd account for the underwater bit and modify his gun so it works fine (remember this is DC tech, not IRL)

PoB doesn't really counter that the trident can block Demo's piercing.

  • To clarify since there seemed to be some confusion. Aquaman's strength was/is being argued as being sufficient to ensure the trident can block Demo's piercing attack. Essentially his trident is durable enough to withstand the cutting and Aquaman is strong enough to not lose control/let it slip.

Speed

Jumping can function as a speed boost provided that it clearly is faster than the persons running. Aquaman has no notable running feats, he does have clear feats of jumping very far in a short timeframe, ergo its a movement speed amp

I would like to emphasize how generous my estimation last round was for Demo's speed was. There is no reasonable scenario where running around a hobgoblin is 10 ft. More reasonably its 5, making the feat 17 mph. Demo moving at 17 mph is sub human. A professional boxer strikes in excess of 25 mph

Fear Aura

Magic Resistance

  • In the feat Aquaman resistance lets him tank the combined might of 9 magic users casting a spell that previously with 2 killed a large sea monster

  • Drizzt having magic resistance without scaling doesn't matter. What does a 27 magic resistance mean in terms of real feats? Theres no reason to think Aquaman's isn't better

Rebuttals

Conclusion

  • Demogorgon is vague

    • Aquaman can go toe to toe

  • Demogorgon's fear aura doesn't do much

1

u/Ame-no-nobuko Aug 28 '21

Response 3 Pt. 2

Rogue v. Guilliman

Failed to Counter

PoB didn't address my arguments that:

  • Contest that Rogue's drain would one shot Guilliman

  • Never provides speed/clarification on the "x tons get sent flying at him" dura feats

  • Doesn't counter the 20 mm helicopter cannon durability

  • Doesn't argue against the idea that Rogue can blitz Guilliman

Rogue's Offense

  • Guilliman explicetly backed away, not repelled by an energy field

    • To quote PoB these weapons are apparently energy weapons that "Normal physics need not apply" to, so why then is he assuming that force transferring is occurring in accordance with physics? Its very convenient that the tech works on another vein of physics that means Lorgar's mace scales neatly to Guilliman's boulder punch, but that nothing else that could mitigate the feat matters

  • No speed is attached to either the feat itself, nor the scaling. Additionally while its stated that multiple hundred tons of debris are chucked at Guilliman, its unclear how much hit him head on.

    • The text also does seem to indicate that the armor is damaged. The armor is showing warning images and has alarms ringing. Armor thats doing unharmed generally doesn't do that.

Rogue is very familiar with the strategy of ripping off a foes helmet to make them vulnerable to an attack, its her go to every time she's fought the Juggernaut or Magneto. She also fairly regularly tries to work around attempts to block her absorbing touch:

Rogue in general targets peoples faces a lot. The idea of "take off helmet" is incredibly simple for someone whose prone to attack that area anyway

Rogue's Defense

  • No evidence has been provided that the Terminator armor is heavier, and PoB has directly claimed that they weigh 400 kg before

  • PoB's comment regarding Skarband reminds me of an argument he made in Round 3 - that blunt force scaling is relevant to piercing

    • While this is as patently untrue in this round as last round (piercing is a highly localized force, while blunt is over a broad enough area that the force can be distributed), if his own logic is something he genuinely believes then Rogue and Aquaman easily have sufficient blunt force to take whatever attacks their opponents have via their blunt force

Absorbing

I am running Rogue with all of Ms. Marvel's powers. How are using feats when she had less than all of Ms. Marvel's powers not relevant? Like even if the judges buy that my stips mean that I'm not running "this" Rogue, this Rogue only had part of Ms. Marvel's powers. The Rogue I am running would be stronger than her, so I can use the feats as justified scaling.

  • The intention of the stips is to just say that Rogue has Ms. Marvel's powers absorbed and isn't limited by her usual couple hour timer before she loses a stolen power, but as I pointed out it doesn't really matter how you interp the stip, the feats are still usable.

Conclusion

  • Rogue will take off his helmet or punch through his armor draining him

  • She can blitz him

  • His durability and some of his offensive capabilities are suspect

Spartan v. Gaara

Failed to Counter

PoB didn't counter the following points this debate:

  • Spartan's general physical advantage

    • That Gaara's offense sucks

  • Spartan's superior endurance

Spartan's Offense

  • No evidence really was provided that a named attack in Naruto are stronger than an unnamed attack. That "fact" isn't really something universally true or known, so without evidence I don't see why the argument should be considered.

Spartan's Defense

PoB leaves out key context in the "robot hurting Spartan" fight. Spartan was pretending so he could hear his evil plan, he even states it was laughable that the villain believed the robot could ever harm him.

A point of confusion from PoB in my last response was that I was inter scaling between the two Majestic fights, however that wasn't the intention. I was pointing out that Spartan took more hits in that fight then PoB implied and was still standing at the end.

Just as a reminder, Gaara's main offensive feat has a slew of issues

  • The sand initially hit Rock Lee back once, with insufficent force to even lightly damage the wall

  • When it hit him the second time the surface area of the sand was far larger than Rock Lee's body. Much of the force was working directly on the stone itself, meaning the crater is less impressive then if it was caused by hitting Lee and then that energy then transferring into the stone

    • This also means that all of Gaara's attacks on Spartan would transfer less energy than the total force of the sand wave (most of the sand will hit Spartan, so most of the energy won't transfer)

  • Lee is a child, and the crater is barely larger than him, so its puny. Like maybe 4 feet tall and a foot deep.

PoB has failed to prove that Gaara can hurt Spartan in any meaningful timeframe.

Teleportation

Spartan only had Voids power for like 30 something issues, where he spent the majority acting as a CEO and doing CEO shit. In that timeframe he only has 4 violent interactions of any kind - once against Majestic, the robot he dismantles, the assassin whose gun he takes away, and a fight against some gangsters where he teleports away a guys gun

  • So literally every time he fights someone with any sort of "gear" (a robot, guns, etc) he teleports it away

    • Contrary to PoB's argument I didn't stip out the mindset of the robot feat, just that he can't do that to cyborg. It is still valid evidence that Spartan in character wants to isolate his opponents and remove their weapons

I have shown plenty of evidence that Spartan has the capability to teleport precisely enough to remove Gaara from his sand armor:

Additionally as I have pointed out Spartan is the smartest robot in his galaxy and is 100% objective. In his head he a record of all Coda tactics and has information on every battle ever fought on Earth

  • The Coda are an elite group of assasins in the Wildstorm universe

The idea that a hyper-intelligent, objective machine intelligence who has immediate access to the tactics of every battle ever fought in human history and an order of assassins won't think to teleport his foe out of his armor is uh pretty out there.

The speed of the sand isn't what is the main thing stopping it from saving Gaara. If Spartan teleports him inside a building or an airplane, the same would have to beat its way through first or navigate a ton of hallways and doors, all in the time frame that Spartan throws a single punch

Conclusion

  • Spartan is physically superior to Gaara

    • It will take a long time for Gaara to beat Spartan, and if it comes down to an endurance match Spartan wins that easily.

  • Spartan can and will teleport Gaara to isolate him from his sand