r/whowouldwin • u/Verlux • Aug 30 '21
Event The Great Debate Season 12 Finals!!!
Rules
Out of Tier Rules
- For Out of Tier requests, simply ping myself and/or Chainsaw__Monkey and state your case for why you believe someone's combatant is out of tier, then proceed with the debate as per normal. We will evaluate that request individual of the debate itself and make our decision in judgments. Reminder: the Head Judges maintain the right to DM any user we believe to be skirting OoT lines and make our own OoT accusation, with said user having 48 hours to defend themselves.
Battle Rules
Speed is not to be equalized in any respect for this Season of the Great Debate. A character's provable speed feats are what they will be entered and argued as; however, as an addendum to this tier, you can simply opt to state your character is equivalent in speed to the tier-setter in all regards, essentially a normal human being.
All combatants are aware of the basics of their allies' combat abilities but are in the blind on their opponents (unless they have canon knowledge of said person via sharing a fictional universe)
Battleground: The Great Debate arena has traveled across fiction, from a coliseum, to the Mines of Moria, to Asgard, and to ancient China. Now, however, we travel to a pretty graphic map, one which caused a lot of outcry upon its release, and just remember: no Russian. Prepare to ground all planes in the vicinity of Terminal. An airport terminal with plenty of unloaded planes, cargo, trucks for transporting freight, and other miscellany around, it's a haven for a hard-swinging cyborg to duke it out with other super-strong suckers. Combatants start opposite each on the tarmac between the two planes, precisely 10 meters' distance from each plane and 5 meters apart. Here is a useful compilation of images of the map, as well as an overhead view of the accessible area. Note: yes, the second plane is included in our version of Terminal, giving Cyborg a second fucking big metal tube to swing around. For further reference, here is a youtuber doing a 5 minute walkthrough of the entire map, and combatants will be spawning in roughly at where the youtuber is at 4:33 in the video. Combatants start 5 meters apart from one another as stated, on opposite sides of the refueling truck with both equally close to the truck and their respective plane (the first listed person in each match spawns closer to the terminal, the second listed person spawns closer to the open plane explored in the video), and in team scenarios they are in a line spaced 2 meters apart from one another, appearing in sign-up order from left to right. Every combatant starts each round being 'teleported' into the arena, knowing full well whomever they face down needs to die or be incapacitated in order for they themselves to advance and win and will do so. All combatants begin without any weapons drawn or abilities active, hands idle at their sides, weapons holstered, and the moment they teleport in they can begin combat. All combatants are in-character for the tourney itself, and importantly all combatants have an accessible HUD (that interferes none at all with their vision and cannot be interfered with via any means, magical technological or otherwise) that displays a layout of Terminal. Of special note: the tarmac, terminal, and general map layout cannot be exited under any circumstance, with an invisible 'wall' preventing persons from exfiltrating the map at the boundaries shown in the overhead display map (but allowing access to the second plane). Since it will be asked: the planes are B-737-800s, so approximately 45 tons unloaded. Assume this weight for both.
Submission Rules
- Tier: Must be able to win an unlikely victory, draw/near draw, or likely victory against Cyborg in the conditions outlined above and in the hype post. All entrants will be bloodlusted against Cyborg, meaning they will act fully rationally and put down their opponent in the quickest, most efficient manner possible regardless of morality, utilizing any and all possible techniques/tactics/attacks if necessary. The bloodlust does not give any foreknowledge of Cyborg or his capabilities.
Debate Rules
Rounds will last approximately 5 and a half day days, hopefully from Monday until Saturday at noon of each week of the tourney; there is a 48 hour time limit both on starting (we do not care who starts, you and your opponent can figure that out) AND on responses, AND ADDITIONALLY each user MUST get in two responses or else be disqualified. If one user waits until the very last minute to force this rule to DQ their opponent without any forewarning to their opponents or the tournament supervisors, they will be removed from this tournament, no exceptions.
Format for each round: the one to go first gets an Intro + 1st Response, their opponent replies in kind, then both get a 2nd response, then a 3rd response in a back-and-forth style, and a closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. FIRST RESPONSES MUST BE NO LONGER THAN 10K CHARACTERS LONG, AND EACH SUBSEQUENT RESPONSE MUST BE NO LONGER THAN THREE REDDIT COMMENTS LONG WITH A HARD CAP OF 20,000 CHARACTERS SPLIT BETWEEN THE THREE.
Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are determined by randomization. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa. First Round will be determined by coin flip.
Brackets Here
Since its the finals, we shall have:
2
u/GuyOfEvil Sep 03 '21
Second Response Part 2
Roy Mustang Heat cont.
It's also obviously way the fuck better than Gaara's best linked scaling, which is a dude instantly melting ice Hell, he doesn't even melt all of the ice he targets, there are still large ass cubes. There is no evidence that Gaara's sand could take shit.
And as for the internal angle, Mustang can obviously hit the insides of things, he can explode a stone projectile from the inside, blows apart a large cannon with an explosion that originates from inside, and burns Envy inside out. He could very obviously attack inside Gaara's sand or Guilliman's armor.
Getting Knocked Down
My opponent argues that since Demogorgon can knock down Drizzt by running, he can do the same to Mustang. As previously mentioned, these feats aren’t in the RT, and I think for good reason.
The concept of Demogorgon running so far forward that he causes the ground to Super Shake, such that Drizzt, who can stand tall in firm in a normal earthquake, gets knocked off balance, is really fucking stupid. I think it’s infinitely more likely to say that, while Drizzt’s feats for standing tall happen in a normal earthquake on the surface, and its much easier to shake a cave system. Airports don’t shake when 50 ton shit lands on them, its hard to imagine that it would shake in the first place, and Demogorgon has no feats for creating an honest to god earthquake. My opponent really ought to demonstrate Demogorgon shaking solid ground for this to be a believable feat.
Opening Move
In this section, my opponent conflates “being in a fight where he wants to kill his opponent” with “being bloodlusted” or “how he will act in character. In all scans my opponent links, he’s fighting opponents he knows about, and who he can and does defeat with little strain. On my opponent’s team is a 30 foot tall terror beast.
But even then, my opponent’s examples for how Mustang acts can be outweighed, and are obviously missing context in some cases.
In a fight against Edward, he snaps immediately, and specifically clarifies that he always does this, and a good soldier should do this
As soon as he gets involved in this fight, he snaps
Blows into this scene without announcement
Immediately blows up a truck
Even this scene my opponent links is an example, he announces himself to allow Alphonse to put up a wall, but before his opponent has a chance to react he’s snapped
This leaves the three counterexamples my opponent links, but they all have pretty huge problems
Against Scar he can’t snap in the first place because its raining, it’s pretty obvious he’s only gloating as a bluff
His interpretation of this scene is just like nonsense. Mustang listens because Envy is confessing, and then spends the rest of the scene essentially torturing them. He wants Envy to confess, and he wants this one to last. This is obviously not how he acts in a normal fight
Against the failed Fuhrers, he does like, succeed at boxing them out. At a glance it should be obvious to him he wouldn’t succeed at boxing out any member of the enemy team
So he does generally open by snapping, specifically says he likes to open by snapping, and the times he doesn’t there are like obviously reasons for it. This point is wack.
2B: Other methods of Instant Death
Michael Wilson
My opponent makes a big deal about the bulletproof safe scan, but all I was ever using it for was like
To actually demonstrate what the gun like, does
To demonstrate the gun can pierce metal
To demonstrate the gun is better than just like, a pistol
And none of those things are wrong or untrue, my opponent later agrees that the caliber of bullets is better than just like, pistol bullets. The argument that the video is kind of wrong is just like a psyop, it’s not super relevant to his characters surviving the bullets. Lets go down the line on characters that are threatened by them.
Gaara cannot move his sand fast enough to block bullets fired by a minigun. His body has no piercing resistance
My opponent’s claim is that Kara will be fine because she’s completely undamaged by pistol fire, which is clearly untrue. She’s obviously flinching and vocalizing pain in this scan, and isn’t shown to have bodily damage in cases where she obviously does. These bullets are gonna do some damage.
I already covered Demogorgon, he has nothing relevant to a minigun.
Wilson using Richard Hawk’s guns
I’ve argued Michael Wilson using other ranged options in most of my other rounds. He’s stipulated to be using the RG-RH and the GG-RH, the other weapons in question, the RT demonstrates them as selectable weapons in game, and here’s video footage of him using other ones of Richard Hawks guns.. He has these as options.
Lu Bu
I guess clarification is required on the Shield Breaker scan. Here is the scan I linked, in it, you can see him impacting Thor’s gauntlet and destroying it. Here’s a scan about Thor’s gauntlet. A gauntlet isn’t strictly armor, it can be used for attack, but Thor uses it to block an attack and the slightest hit makes it explode. The weapon is called Shield Breaker and it makes armor explode. It will make armor or shields explode.
Guilliman has no piercing resistance outside his armor, Lu Bu can instantly go for his armor, and can deal a shot to somewhere that would be instantly lethal. In any interaction between the two, Lu Bu kills Guilliman
Gaara has no durability outside of his defensive implements, and they’re specifically called Sand Armor and Sand shield. Lu Bu blows them up and kills him.
Kara has no cutting resistance to a weapon like a spear, and Lu Bu is bringing it down with physical force sufficient to heavily crater the ground of an arena. She is also heavily threatened by Lu Bu
Demogorgon already discussed
Iron Man
My opponent tries to argue the repulsors aren’t cutting they’re heat, but they clearly cut an airplane with no sign or mention of heat. If your body cannot take this, the repulsor will go right through and kill you
Demogorgon cannot take this
Guilliman does not seem to have resistance to cutting, only really bolters
Kara has nothing and is threatened by pistol bullets
Gaara’s sand doesn’t seem to have anything comparable.
And even if they can take the cutting, there’s physical force behind it to heavily damage anyone it hits](https://imgur.com/a/aQgfBVI)
Iron Man Flying
My opponent dials in on the Kara 1v1, so I will too here. Iron Man destroys Kara in a 1v1.
As previously discussed, his repulsors bisect her. He can do them from melee or from range, and they’re massively harder to dodge in melee. This is a huge threat that Kara has no analogy to.
My opponent attempts to defend Kara’s durability, but the comparison between stone and dirt, even if dirt is on the ground, is still massively in favor of stone. I can affect one of them with a shovel. My opponent also attempts to play up the size of Kara’s crater, but you see a clear shot after the fact and it’s dogshit small. She does not have the ability to contend with Iron Man’s blows.
Nor does she have the ability to deal damage. Iron Man can take his own repulsors and get cratered half his body deep into the street. What my opponent describes as Kara’s best blow leaves 0 crater in dirt, and then a crater maybe ankle deep. This is not a threat to Iron Man.
So Iron Man easily beats the only other character with relevant range or flight, and then is free to just rain death on the fools below. There is no counterplay to this
Conclusion
Demogorgon turns this fight into 4 1v4s for my team thanks to its fear aura. My team has no shot of losing this
Roy Mustang can kill the entire enemy team instantly if he gets off even a single attack
Every member of my team can kill several members of the enemy team within one interaction
Iron Man has flight, beats the only other character with flight, and can attack with impunity from there