The Great Debate Season 13 Round 2!!!

[u/Verlux]

Rules

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Out of Tier Rules

• For Out of Tier requests, simply ping myself and/or Chainsaw__Monkey and state your case for why you believe someone's combatant is out of tier, then proceed with the debate as per normal. We will evaluate that request individual of the debate itself and make our decision in judgments. Reminder: the Head Judges maintain the right to DM any user we believe to be skirting OoT lines and make our own OoT accusation, with said user having 48 hours to defend themselves.

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Battle Rules

• Speed is not to be equalized in any respect for this Season of the Great Debate. A character's provable speed feats are what they will be entered and argued as.

• All combatants are aware of the basics of their allies' combat abilities but are in the blind on their opponents (unless they have canon knowledge of said person via sharing a fictional universe)

• Battleground: The Great Debate arena has traveled across fiction, from a coliseum, to the Mines of Moria, to Asgard, and to ancient China. For this specific tier, however, something a bit more down-to-earth, something more intimate, something a bit more bloodthirsty, was in order: enjoy slaughtering your opponents in the Kengan Annihilation Tournament Dome. The dome is going to be considered closed for tournament purposes, but for any characters who require access to sunlight, weather, etc. as always assume they operate optimally and by magic do not affect the enemy in any negative way whatsoever. Of note for the Dome: it is indeed empty of spectators, it is made of the in-universe specially-made Kengan concrete (as is the floor), and it is fully destructible. Any exits from the dome are sealed by an impermeable barrier that cannot be interacted with, the dome cannot be exited, and all combatants are aware of these facts.

Submission Rules

• Tier: Must be able to win an unlikely victory, draw/near draw, or likely victory against The Fang of Corvette in the conditions outlined above and in the hype post. All entrants will be bloodlusted against Fang, meaning they will act fully rationally and put down their opponent in the quickest, most efficient manner possible regardless of morality, utilizing any and all possible techniques/tactics/attacks if necessary. The bloodlust does not give any foreknowledge of Fang or his capabilities.

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Debate Rules

• Rounds will last approximately 5 and a half day days, hopefully from Monday until Saturday at noon of each week of the tourney; there is a 48 hour time limit both on starting (we do not care who starts, you and your opponent can figure that out) AND on responses, AND ADDITIONALLY each user MUST get in two responses or else be disqualified. If one user waits until the very last minute to force this rule to DQ their opponent without any forewarning to their opponents or the tournament supervisors, they will be removed from this tournament, no exceptions.

• Format for each round: the one to go first gets an Intro + 1st Response, their opponent replies in kind, then both get a 2nd response, then a 3rd response in a back-and-forth style, and a closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. FOR THE FIRST ROUND, EACH DEBATER'S FIRST RESPONSE IS LIMITED TO 10K CHARACTERS, WITH THE NEXT TWO RESPONSES BEING 15K IN LENGTH EACH!!!! You are allowed an intro post as stated above, which can include basic feats, of up to 5000 characters, but no arguments or comparisons may be made in comparison to the opponent.

• Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are determined by randomization. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa. First Round will be determined by coin flip.

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Brackets Here

Determined by chat input, the first round was a 3v3 melee, making the second round:

1v1 Individual Fights, randomized as follows:

First Listed Person's Lineup	Versus	Second Listed Person's Lineup
Character 1		Character 3
Character 2		Character 1
Character 3		Character 2

Round 2 Ends Saturday March 12th, 12:00 CST

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Special Note: Don't forget that combatants are spaced apart based on the reach of their striking capabilities. If you have a 10 foot long spear pointed at the Tier Setter, you start with the tip of the spear 3 meters away from him; if you are riding a giant monster, you start with the end of the monster's arms/shoulders/head at the 3 meter away point, etc etc.

Links to:

Hype Post

Sign Ups

Round 1

[u/TheMightyBox72]

Post 2

Ratcatcher

This literally happens to yourguy and he dies.

Fjord

• 2 Many Spells

I think the argument that Fjord will get analysis paralysis over too many options is pretty weak and not substantiated by any of the actual text.

There is, in fact, hundreds of hours of content that show Fjord acting decisively in combat. Here's a scan of him effectively juggling several spells in a short combat encounter without slowing or stopping.

This point is based on nothing but a surface level observation that Fjord has a lot of options and Major is strictly limited to running up and punching things.

• Speed Feats

Following from this, Major's only options are running up and punching stuff.

As discussed before, Fjord has a multitude of ranged options, but also blitzing is also not a particularly strong avenue. Fjord has reacted to a surprise shot from a crossbow, and he can teleport (his teleportation is also strong enough to break rock and crater solid wood). In comparison to the rest of the Nein, Fjord is not a tank, it's actually a running joke that he's kind of frail. He would not stand there and try to take it if a woman came running at him, poised to attack.

The only scans provided for Major's movement speed, and in fact the only scans to exist for it, merely show her moving "visibly fast", but that's not enough to prove that she'd be able to get the jump on someone who reacts purely to crossbow fire.

• Major's Durability

Major has a lot of statements about her durability that sound like they mean something, but really don't.

This statement, well, for one it's a bit too off the cuff to assume with 100% certainty that he's being literal. But, more than that, it provides not a lot of tangible, workable information. We don't know the density of specifically titanium compared to other components, we don't know the purity of the titanium in question which could be alloyed while still being referred to as titanium. Major could have a "titanium shell" in the same way that the trinket I got from a Dave & Busters as a kid was "gold plated". Looking at this scan, over half the body is a muscly fiber substance of unknown material, hell if you look at the disembodied foot, it's literally a thin metal pole surrounded by this fiber.

When I say there's more evidence to suggest that Major isn't bulletproof than that she is, I mean what I say, no more and no less. There aren't any scans of Major resisting piercing damage that can suggest anything about how hardy her chassis is. The only thing we do have, is a scan where she does get pierced.

So no, I don't take this as proof that Major is going to be able to resist Fjord's attacks which actively warp metal and cut through bulletproof material.

Luke Cage

• I lied, this section is just about Niko

Niko is stronger than Luke.

There is one scan to support this that lacks general context, to the point where we don't if the damage caused was done by one strike, multiple strikes, a throw, or a piss stream.

Niko is more durable in terms of general endurance.

There are no scans to support this.

Niko is more skilled than Luke and cannot be cleanly tagged.

There are no scans to support this.

Niko is better at grappling than Luke and cannot have force applied to him in a way that is possible to damage him.

There are no scans to support this.

Niko is faster than Luke.

There are no scans to support this.

Niko is not Ohma, he's not Fei, and, ironically, he's not Niko. Kengan fighters are specialized, the degree to which every aspect of their fighting is affected by their unique body and training is heavily scrutinized by the text. You can't compare the skill feats of other characters to Niko just because they trained under someone who trained under the person who trained him, because we do not see and have no frame of reference for how Niko himself fights, how he reacts to stimuli, or how he holds up performing certain risky techniques.

And you certainly can't scale him to raw physicals like Ohma's strength and durability. I shouldn't even have to explain that one, those two characters literally do not interact.

On what scans exist of Niko, Luke hands him his ass, and that's the end of that.

[u/xWolfpaladin → u/TheMightyBox72]

RESPONSE 3

• My opponent has basically gone from arguing that their character has literally any tangible advantage to simply being forced to rebut points with no strong counter to the actual arguments there.
• My opponent is literally trying to pull the "I'm more objective card" while running a DnD podcast where players are describing their actions off the cuff in real time.

Dude A Crosssbow Dude; SPEED = DISTANCE / TIME

• Reaction speed is a function of the velocity of a projectile by the distance it travels with the relevant context of visual clarity and the angle of the shot. A crossbow in modern high quality and not a random medieval one ranges anywhere from 100 to 400 f/s, and this is at a vague distance, a vague quality, in vague conditions.
• You can be able to react to something in a timeframe and be completely unable to avoid it. If you react to my punch as I throw it in 200 milliseconds, and I throw my punch in 220, you cannot dodge in a tenth the time you react. You just get to see your death.
  • The time to make a decision is not your reaction time, it is your reaction time plus the time it takes you to think about that thing, which is additionally relevant time to a practical reaction.

"Reacted to a crossbow" means literally nothing, not one thing, "reacting to a crossbow" is actually entirely within the realm of normal human reaction, there is

• No actual strong indication they weren't ready for it, which strongly speeds up reaction time.
• No strong indication of distance.
• No indication of when they reacted relative to that distance, what percentage of the path had been travelled.

Normal humans can literally react to gunfire except no they can't at all actually, if you calculate this based on the speed of the projectile and the distance given it is literally .202 seconds or "athletic human reaction time", distance is an absolutely crucial factor, but if you were describing this over the form of a DM talking to like five players at a time to create a DnD game that distance would not be apparent and you would have people arguing it means he reacts in thirty milliseconds and can see 200 mph projectiles midair.

Additionally, this is not only the sole instance of Fjord reacting to a crossbow, this is the sole instance of Fjord demonstrating literally any speed that can even be tangentially implied to be relevant to the argument, my opponent himself cites "hundreds of hours of content" yet has managed to provide a single vague feat where the user did not actually avoid the arrow in a combative way, did not quantify the speed of the arrow, did not quantify the distance, in addition to this there has not been one single other combat speed feat posted.

Major is Fast

• Major avoids a punch in twenty milliseconds
  • The tier setter strikes in 19 milliseconds.
• Major avoids a punch in the same timeframe, except while backpedaling as her opponent rushes forward
• Major throws an uppercut in twenty milliseconds while swaying to avoid her opponent
• Major jumps across a hallway 50 times longer than the starting distance in one second while avoiding a complex trap system
• Major leaps at 42 m/s

Assuming the width of the block was 15 meters, and that she gained 32 meters of height. At the start of the jump Major it situated below 3 sets of windows, at it's completion she not only cleared those three sets but also a gap and then 3 more sets of windows, assuming she traveled 8 stories upwards 32 is a reasonable distance. Just measuring this as a right triangle, where the distance Major traveled is the hypotenuse, she would have covered about 35 meters. With the shown time of .8 seconds, Major is capable of leaping at around 42 meters per second.

So let me reiterate. MAJOR JUMPS AS FAST AS A MEDIEVAL CROSSBOW BOLT versus a single feat of nebulously reacting to at a nebulous distance in a nebulous fashion in hundred of hours of content while lacking even a single other feat to ever imply that they could possibly avoid Major jumping at them.

Characterization??

He would not stand there and try to take it

1. The starting distance is 3 meters.

2. "I would simply not get punched" is not an argument

You didn't actually show what Fjord would choose of his 50 options.

Metal Arguments, You are Weak, Major Is Durable

We don't know the density of specifically titanium compared to other components, we don't know the purity of the titanium in question which could be alloyed while still being referred to as titanium.

I find this an extremely interesting argument, because

[u/xWolfpaladin → u/xWolfpaladin]

• There are six commercial grades of pure titanium and strikingly few titanium alloys, to the point where when anyone says titanium they probably mean "titanium with aluminum in it" by default. I really want to ask my opponent if he thinks "Major is made out of Ti 5Al-2.5Sn and not Ti 6AL-4V EL titanium" is relevant and then consider the fact that there are dozens upon dozens of variations of concrete with wildly varying strengths, any two titanium alloys have provably less variation than the difference between "the concrete in this random hallway" and "the concrete on this random sidewalk." Something like "Well maybe Major is actually 50% titanium and 50% pig iron and lead" is not a thing that exists, the amount of things that the phrase titanium reasonably refers to is extremely small.
• Titanium is alloyed with other metals for strength, pure titanium has fundamental flaws as a material in terms of industry that mean that it is less viable for mainstream uses such as military hardware or body-replacements. Pure titanium is actually too hard (brittle) and not ideal for resisting corrosion. Adding things like aluminum give titanium an important flex factor for less weight, making it stronger in the most literal sense. "Light titanium alloys" are still denser than steel and bulletproof in any greater concentration than literally the thickness of your skin. This will be cited later.
  • These give benefits such as heat resistance, but more practically for the purpose of hardware, they give more toughness, more strength, make them less brittle, which is especially important for resisting fast impacts like bullet. This is why very few modern products are actually pure anything. Additionally, these alloys typically compose less than twenty percent, on an absolute high end, of the alloy in question, and the way that alloys work is that they primarily accrue chemical and structural benefits.
• I also find it extremely interesting to imply that any titanium alloy has a difference in structural integrity severe enough that having a solid mass greater than your skeleton made of titanium would mean you are at all vulnerable fire to say, 9mm fire.

For reference, this is what two shots from a handgun do to the surface of titanium. You see anything? That's my point.

Especially damning is the fact that my opponent is entirely scaling to denting iron armor, when

• Major literally dents massively more metal with her fingers, a several inch door vs millimeters of plate
• MEDIEVAL METAL IS LITERALLY ASS A ROBOCOP FROM THE FUTURE IS NOT LESS DURABLE THAN SKJOR FUCKEN-PEASANT'S ARMOR

and bending metal armors (measured in millimeters) on an impact is genuinely terrible when the same metal argument applies, and real people can bend metal bars because of the way metal's tensile strength works. An iron rod five times as thin is far more than five times as weak, we're comparing a 6 foot solid rectangle to a single rod. Even if it's actually modern iron, the best iron is worse than the worst titanium.

In Conclusion

• Major runs up to you and pops your arms off
• You cannot actually hurt Major with your attacks
  • Major is a robot who survives as a head, you need to kill her, you need to shatter her, you can't even dent her.
• Major has more speed feats in one second of being on screen than Fjord in 4000 hours of text.
• Grappled.

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Niko vs Luke

• My opponent has basically gone to having from arguments to make about his pick to arguing that a five foot child who has trained for two years is weaker than a six foot demon man who has trained for thirty in a universe where muscular build and physical power are explicitly linked.
  

Niko vs Ohma

And you certainly can't scale him to raw physicals like Ohma's. I shouldn't even have to explain that one, those two characters literally do not interact.

lol, said the scorpion. lmao.

Wrong

• Tiger Niko literally walks up to Ohma with his hands in his pockets point two milliseconds after Ohma punches heavy craters into concrete, completely blitzes and overpowers him, calls his dick small, and then completely countered two blows with one hand before one shotting him. I shouldn't even have to explain this one.

  • Tiger Niko proceeded to keep training to be in his peak while Ohma did not become even "as skilled" as his teenage self until round 2, when he gained the skill level of as of when he lost to Tiger Niko back, in addition to this he is literally physically weakened through virtually every feat he performs. Tiger Niko is laughably more skilled than the most skilled Ohma we see, and the least skilled Ohma we see performs virtually every feat I have linked.

• Every skill feat I have linked for Ohma is in the context of "He has severe memory loss because of this incident" and the loss was the techniques he knew at this time. Tiger Niko is to every Ohma feat as Mike Tyson is to a homeless twelve year old who has ok technique.

I Think Every Character In Kengan Hits Harder Than Luke Cage

• Niko could literally have done this crater with ten kicks and it would be better than what Luke Cage has struggled to do at his best, and he implicitly did it in one blow, while holding back massively.

• Virtually every single kengan character who appears is stronger than Luke, Tiger Niko would not just have to be weaker than children he beats up regularly, he would have to be weaker than every character with a feat, literally the first chapter of Kengan is a man creating a crater ten times bigger than anything Luke has ever looked at and then Ohma beating the piss out of him and calling him a fake loser at 1% power

Frankly speaking the scaling for Ohma's here, where Tiger Niko has both better technique and raw power, provably, in the same scene, does not even have to apply, you can assume that Niko is literally one tenth as strong as this crater, despite Ohma explicitly being bad at the method that allows him to make this crater, Niko is still stronger than Luke Cage, he is one million times more skilled.

Kengan fighters are specialized, the degree to which every aspect of their fighting is affected by their unique body and training

There are no citations on this beyond a general assertion so I'll elaborate on what my opponent only superficially understands

• "Kengan fighters are specialized" is a true statement used to make a non-conclusion, real fighters are also specialized, I am still stronger than my 12 year old brother regardless if he specializes in striking power, even if you are a strong kid, the adults are stronger. That is physics. Ohma doesn't excel or power in durability, I've literally shown that he's bad at power and durability.

• "To which every aspect of their fighting is affected by their unique body and training" is a semi-false statement used to make a false conclusion.

  • More generally, while every fighter, including real ones, broadly play around their strengths, the Niko style has 4 basic katas that take absolutely utter precedent over everything, and Ohma is explicitly weak and bad compared to Niko at the ones that determine strength and power. Fighters specialize overwhelmingly based on their personality and conviction, but a bigger man will always be stronger than a little man, the little man can only hit conditionally harder through vastly superior technique save for literal superhumans, of which Ohma explicitly is not.

which of these hits harder

Luke Cage Is Not Strong

I am not presenting these as antifeats, it may seem like that, but rather these are the best feats he has, they pale in comparison to basically anything whether the feats Niko has or the objective feats he scales above as they occur.

• Luke cage damages as many as several bricks
  • The children that Niko beats the shit out of for fun do more damage to concrete with purely grip
• Luke cage's first punch while he plausibly does not know his strength creates a fist sized impression in a wall, but every consecutive punch after this is no greater than, at most twice this
  • Niko could literally have done this crater with ten kicks and it would be better than this, and he implicitly did it in one blow, while holding back massively, and he did it by LAUNCHING SOMEONE HARD ENOUGH TO DO IT, TIGER NIKO DOING ONE MOVE ON A PERSON HAS THE SAME RESULT ON THE WALL IT HITS AS 50 LUKE PUNCHES HITTING THE WALL.
• Luke cage breaks wood
  • A child ohma on the verge of death is able to completely counter and return with a blow that pulverizes several trees
• Luke cage destroys half a cinderblock
  • Thrown chunks of concrete shatter on Niko's nipples
• Luke causes a fist sized indent in a metal door
  • Ohma pulverizes a street lamp with one kick

In Conclusion

please free me

/u/TheMightyBox72

[u/TheMightyBox72 → u/xWolfpaladin]

Post 3

Well, there's absolutely no reason to be rude about it.

This reply has a lot of comments that range from pointless mudslinging to just, strange in and of themselves.

This, for instance,

My opponent is literally trying to pull the "I'm more objective card" while running a DnD podcast where players are describing their actions off the cuff in real time.

if you have issues with my scans then say what they are, this is just meaningless sabre rattling. The medium by which the feats I'm arguing happen don't make them any more or less objective than any other feats that exist. The issue is that you're arguing feats that don't exist.

I don't want to just go through the entire argument and respond to specific points, but my total argument hasn't changed since the first post. (This is also why I didn't bother to restate it in the last post, I've already made my arguments, my only purpose was to further them with a more specific discussion.) So allow me to restate here for the record.

Fjord still outspeeds Major and defeats her from a distance using spells. Luke still beats Niko as he is a made up character with no feats. And the other guy still got eaten by rats.

So, unfortunately, we're just going to go point by point here.

The Crossbow

Wolf has called Fjord's crossbow feat vague. It's actually not, context is hard to include in feats like these, but the context is there.

Fjord could not have predicted the bolt or seen it coming. The character who fired the bolt is Nott the Brave, one of Fjord's travelling companions and close friends. Nott uses the Tinkertop Bolt Blaster 1000, an experimental auto-crossbow from an eccentric inventor. The Bolt Blaster has a design defect where one-tenth of the time it fires, it'll malfunction. Mechanically, on a natural 1, the bolt being fired will become jammed and needs to be fixed, on a natural 20, the crossbow will mistakenly fire two bolts in quick succession. The bolt that Fjord raked out of the air was the second bolt on a natural 20, in other words, it was a random mechanical failure, not something that Fjord could've seen coming or predicted.

We also technically know how far Fjord was from the attack. Because, as a game, D&D is very technical about distances. I didn't want to get this heavy into gameplay stuff but if you look at the map during the instance (the timestamp for which was provided in the scan), Fjord was about 20 feet away from Nott. That puts his reaction times likely around 130 to 100 ms.

Wolf also calls into question the fact that Fjord only has one notable arrow timing feat. Which, I guess, yeah, unless you want to count him knocking a thrown harpoon out of the air. He also doesn't have a wealth of anti-feats of failing to dodge or intercept arrows that can be pointed to either. He just doesn't get shot at much.

Ultimately, there's more pointing to the fact that he can and has, than there is pointing to that he can't. And I guess if we want to use the logic of Niko's argument, I'd just link Beau's feats who's like, really good at arrow timing.

Major's Speed

The arguments here I find to be pretty weak, honestly. Wolf frame calcs out three different instances of Major dodging a close range attack, and suspiciously gets the exact same time frame for each one.

Because each one is the difference between two frames in 24 fps animation.

This is not a good way to get accurate numbers for your reaction and attack times, especially considering how many of these frames don't have movement at all.

Then there's a calc on her jumping across buildings. I'm not really in the right headspace to check the math on this but the argument just has some basic issues.

1) This is not burst running speed, Major has to squat and then launch herself through the air, which eliminates a lot of her movement options once she's not on the ground.

2) If Major can jump as fast as a medieval crossbow, then that would mean Fjord could react to her fastest approach.

3) At 42 meters per second and a starting distance of 3 meters it would take Major 214 ms to cross the gap between them and that's after she's actually jumped. Which is, as discussed, within regular human reaction times.

So she's not fast enough to blitz Fjord, even with her fastest movement option.

characterization.

Yeah bro, "I would just not get punched" is an argument. Cause that's what... dodging is? Like, deciding not to get punched is something you can just do.

As for the comment about not providing answers on what Fjord would actually do. He's not exactly a flowchart fighter, he doesn't have a go to opener other than throwing out Eldritch Blasts when he can because it's a good, free, damaging spell.

What my actual point was is that Fjord's not going to get locked up trying to figure out which spell he will do, and no matter which option he goes with, it'll heavily swing the fight in his favor.

Everything Else

From this point on, Wolf employs the secret debate technique of making me not want to talk to him. Seriously, you sound like a Fei Sheng Ji RT from 2015. And a Patrick Bateman meme? Really?

Conveniently the rest of the arguments just have to do with a statement of the characters lacking feats. Every argument boils down to what the character aught to be able to do.

Niko aught to be stronger than Ohma, he aught to be more durable. Based on incredibly flimsy scaling and a general statement that "adults are stronger than kids", when Ohma is in his physical prime for most of the series.

The scaling doesn't even work out for these. Ohma is punching holes in walls and then Niko shows up, then punches him in the stomach and knocks him down. Then in the second scan he redirects Ohma's attacks and punches him again. These types of maneuvers don't scale to Ohma's strength very cleanly, and they have nothing to do with Ohma's striking. You keep posting the scan of the kid breaking concrete with his grip, but unless that kid plans to choke someone else that basically has fuck all to do with anything.

You can say I'm arguing in generalities all you want, but this entire argument boils down to this idea that this guy who mostly just walks around menacingly should probably be essentially a composite of the entire Kengan universe, because someone said that he's really strong.

This character doesn't exist, I'm tired, I'm done, fuck you for putting this in front of me.