r/whowouldwin • u/TooAmasian ​ • May 16 '22

Event Arena of Assholes Round 2

Welcome to the second round of Arena of Assholes, aka Venom Tier

This is a debate focused bracketed tournament where users pick characters to argue against other users, with a certain character (Venom in this case) functioning as a measuring stick to prevent any one user from being too strong or unfair. You pick four characters, enter into rounds, and then argue you win against someone else with their picks.

In this tournament specifically, you choose 4 characters to run that can range from "unlikely to likely victory" against the tier setter Venom. The 4th pick works as a "rotating backup," meaning you choose only 3 of your characters to participate prior to each round.

The Brackets

Round 2 - 3v3s

The Tier Setter

Example of this kind of debate

This tier is designed for strong characters who can deliver and take hits that destroy copious amounts of concrete while being fast enough to bullet-time at close distances.

The tier setter is an idealized version of the sinister symbiote, Venom.

Venom

Full Tourney RT

Stat Interp
Strength A full force blow launches an opponent through several floors hard enough to embed into asphalt
Speed Bullet timing reactions, can run 100 mph and web-sling at 200 mph. Superhuman agility.
Durability Is fine being punched through a very thick concrete wall
Range Tentacles can reach around 20 feet when standing still and a decent distance greater than his melee range in combat
Misc Has tentacles that can extend his range, web-slinging for mobility, and anti-stealth measures by "seeing" out of his skin

Rules

Arena Rules- Round 2's arena will be Carrier from Call of Duty: Black Ops 2

  • Spawn points and other relevant images

    • Team 1 (Spawn 1, 2, 3) is the top team in the comment and Team 2 (Spawn A, B, C) is the bottom team

  • Video tour of the map

  • Carrier gameplay

  • The carrier is stationary in the ocean and will not sink

  • The carrier is fully accessible (this means the back portion of the carrier near Team 1's spawn can be accessed)

  • Do not be an asshat with arena rulings. Do not make arguments like "This is real earth, so abilities do not work" or "I become omnipotent due to magic present in the arena."

  • Assume materials within the map are made of and equivalent to their real life counterparts (vehicles are made of metal, etc.)

  • The deck floor is made of solid concrete, for tourney purposes, the lower decks don't exist and just a solid mass of concrete

  • There's is an invisible WhoWouldWinium wall 100 ft off the edge of the carrier in the ocean to prevent escaping the map and the sky caps at the troposphere

    • WhoWouldWinium is an infinitely durable material that otherwise has properties equivalent to balsa wood and cannot be affected in any way. It is fully sapient and has the authority to disqualify your characters if you attempt to abuse it

  • Combatants can access the water, but staying on the surface/underwater for 12 whole seconds counts as a DQ

  • All "sunlight' present in the arena is fake sunlight that grants whatever normal powers but will not inhibit vampires or other characters with an inherent weakness via a WWWinium lightbulb. It is as warm and bright as normal sunlight.

Battle Rules

  • All combatants are aware of the basics of their allies' combat abilities but are in the blind on their opponents (unless they have canon knowledge of said person via sharing a fictional universe)

  • All combatants are fully aware that their enemy must be defeated for them to be able to survive, to be able to return to their home reality, and for the omnipotent organizers of this scenario to be satisfied. All combatants are aware of rules for the objective of the tournament

  • Incapacitation is defined by being unable to continue fighting. Being knocked out, being killed, being BFRd, or fully succumbing to exhaustion. If this condition is met for more than 12 full seconds, your character loses, and in a 3v3, they are removed from the arena in a flash of light after being incapacitated for 12 seconds. To reiterate, combatants are aware of this rule. Note that being restrained does not count as being unable to fight if it's something like a physical grapple or generally something that needs concentration to maintain, for example, you can't hold someone in a full nelson for 12 seconds to delete them from a 3v3.

  • Summons or 'fake' characters do not count for the purpose of a win condition - for instance, if a conjurer died in a 1v1 and left behind his 2 zombies, he would still automatically lose. This also applies to hive-minds or drone characters. This also means that characters who can reasonably be considered one entity can be run with ruling on a case by case basis, and will likely need to have a Prime Entity stipulated. This is, as well, determinable case by case without a specific end all be all example.

  • Every combatant starts each round being teleported into the arena, knowing full well whomever they face down needs to die or be incapacitated in order for they themselves to advance and win and will do so.

  • All combatants begin without any weapons drawn or abilities active, hands idle at their sides, and the moment they teleport in they can begin combat

  • All combatants are in-character for the tourney itself

  • Characters with holsters or similar will begin with their weapons holstered, characters with weapons that cannot feasibly be holstered will begin with the weapons pointed at the ground.

Debate Rules

  • Rounds will last roughly 5 days, from now Monday until Saturday at noon EST of each week of the tourney; there is a 48 hour time limit both on starting (we do not care who starts, you and your opponent can figure that out, after Round 2 however we will mandate this) AND on responses, AND ADDITIONALLY each user MUST get in two responses or else be disqualified. If one user waits until the very last minute to force this rule to DQ their opponent without any forewarning to their opponents or the tournament supervisors, they will be removed from this tournament, no exceptions.

  • Intros, OOT requests, and conclusions are a max of 10k characters

  • Intros can be used to set up arguments such as by laying out that stats of your characters

  • Out of Tier Mechanic- A character can be veto'd mid tourney if the opposing debater calls for an Out of Tier review and the head judge agrees they are out of tier.

    • An OOT requests works by pinging the head judge (me) and explaining why the character has been argued as Out of Tier by the opponent
    • Each participant gets 3 OOT request for the whole tournament which is lost whenever their OOT fails to go through, this is done to avoid abusing the mechanic

  • You can not bring up new points in your conclusions, it is used to succinctly summarize and go over your prior arguments

  • Format for each round: the one to go first gets an Intro + 1st Response, their opponent replies in kind, then both get a 2nd response, then a 3rd response in a back-and-forth style, and a closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. Reponses are max of a 20k characters each spread along a max of 3 comments.

  • Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are determined by randomization. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa.

Victory Conditions

Winning a match will be determined by a council of 5 judges. Each specific round will be judged by 2 judges with a 3rd judge coming in if needed for a tiebreaker. Judgements are based upon who made the more convincing argument not which character "objectively" wins the matchup.

Links

Pre-Tournament

Tournament

Results

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u/Wapulatus ​ May 20 '22

the whole map is surrounded by latent sea mist

Whatever mist Embrace is talking about, it's not around massive portions of the map.

Atlas's projectiles are > bullet speed

I mean, not really?

Where he generates the ice in each bullet interaction is vague - he could be generating them only feet or inches away from the bullets and can clearly generate ice at various points around him. This just infers:

  • How fast he can generate miniscule amounts ice
  • How fast he can accelerate ice to sub-bullet speeds

This does not let Embrace claim he generates massive ice shields, grows ice platforms or floods in any notable timeframe. If anything, there is clear evidence he does all of this much much slower, as there are instances of regular humans reacting to other techniques of his just fine.

If he generates the ice projectiles at any large distance away from my team they even speed equalized characters should be able to react/dodge fine, let alone Seiya.

Deus

bending requires movement speed

His big feat has him only turn his head before activating his powers, keeping his hands in his pockets and not otherwise moving an inch, movement is clearly not necessary.

reacts to Sands

Assuming these are the speed of Nerf darts, the fact he didn't react to them until they were right next to them is a massive reaction speed anti-feat as argued.

The movement aspect of it isn't even that great. The assumed nerf dart speed projectiles move nearly the same distance in the air as Deus ducking, and dodging initially would have only required moving his neck less than a foot before they passed him by. Nerf darts are 10.4 m/s with a deviation of 1.5 m/s or half the speed my speed equalized characters can dodge at.

But also idk why we need to assume these are at the speed of Nerf darts and not something arbitrarily slower or faster.

scaling

I don't even see anything hitting Atlas, just the giant ice structure he made.

Whoever this guy is he reacts to the metal projectiles, doing a head-turn and complex body movement.

Part 4: Guts Cuts Your Guts

Guts

Guts piercing something "stronger" than medieval armor is irrelevant

Seiya

Wild how Darg makes about different swords having different piercing

Seiya is using a magic super-sword with a similar cutting edge that pierces characters better than Seiya with his previous swords. The guy Iwha fought used a weapon with an entirely different make of blade, cutting at an arc he did not cut Iwha with.

Atlas

Embrace said it herself already, "Atlas does not have a direct piercing dura feat" - judges can make what they will of that.

Narrative importance doesn't mean a character have feats they do not have or scale to a feat they do not directly scale to.

I can point to many instances in fiction where a character "should" be this strong or this durable and just aren't - you need to prove your claims with feats, not conjecture.

Deus

His only dura is still to a type of piercing not used by my team.

"Projectiles", "tendrils", for Atlas are vague groupings, every time Atlas uses his abilities he's just manipulating water in a specific way he wants. My point is sometimes that's not a piercing vector, and in the case of Deus' durability feat the spear was blunted before hitting him.

Iwha

I am not saying Seiya/Guts will bisect or amputate Iwha on-hit, but I believe their blades will pierce her skin and muscle, making hits from them debilitating for any form of retaliation from her.

Guts cuts through more metal relative to Iwha's scaling feat, Seiya cuts through stronger metals relative to ??? metal that guy cut.

Part 5: Punch

Deus and Atlas's ability to take blunt impacts is similarly stunted.

Atlas

Deus

Part 6: Seiyashit

Hands

  • Yes they have no durability. What matters is that it either hampers movement (by grabbing their feet) or consumes reaction cycles from the enemy team (to attack them repeatedly) - this compounds on my team's advantages.
    • Being able to hold down a massive dragon that can carry her weight just fine means they will at least hamper the movement of the enemy team if not pin them outright unless Embrace's team wastes reaction cycles mowing them down or trying to get to higher ground.
  • Embrace's team does not know anything pertaining to my team, if they see a bunch of small enemies attacking them they will likely just attack those instead of searching for opponent they do not initially know is invisible.

Mimicry

While Seiya's series uses RPG monikers, things that qualify as "skills" are as mundane as swings a sword (but hard!) to basic physical abilities a species might have.

If Embrace seriously wants to argue that slight differences in series nonmenclature are meaningful to power interactions / power copiers while running one herself, from a different series from her two other team-members, I fail to see why Iwha's ability should be assumed to work, but not Seiya's.

Rebuttals

armor and sword durability do not scale

Medieval armor is generally meant to block sword cuts (before Embrace shouts at me for using a reddit thread as evidence, she did the same last response lol) and is specifically the product of an arms race to stop swords from piercing knights.

If Seiya's armor is made of the same fantasy metals I don't see why it would be massively less piercing resistant.

electricity

I could not care less how the original power user used it, tearing out chunks of flesh is a force vector and heating up wires is a heat vector, both of which are resisted by my team. Show me her shocking and knocking someone out before you argue she does it to my team.

Iwha powers relevant speed to Condor

I finished reading the fight and I don't really see this. She does one thing that takes Condor off-guard while he underestimated her, everything else just...

None of this proves her powers happen fast enough to pose an issue for my team. Also "pretty much immediately" is not a defined speed.

rust

Rusting happens after Iwha and her opponent lock blades for an unspecified amount of time, still requires her to have continued contact with an opponent who is invisible.

Embrace has also characterized Iwha as prioritizing stealing my team's flashy cool weapons, she will not rust weapons she wants to take for herself.

Conclusions

  • My team is invisible, Embrace's team's ability to fight invisible opponents is disadvantaged for one character, while completely unfeasible for two others.
  • Embrace's team is a disorganized, uncoordinated mess at go, my team just runs at and hits them with lethal cutting and blunt force.
  • Deus and Atlas have reactions with no ability to run or dodge fast enough to be relevant to my team that moves and reacts objectively fast.
  • My power copier can't copy because series is different but yours can, ok

/u/EmbraceAllDeath

1

u/EmbraceAllDeath ​ May 21 '22

Round 2, Response 3 Part (1/3)

Overview:

My team possesses a couple of advantages that allow them to dominate this match

  • My team possesses 2 metal benders that can manipulate large amounts of metal while Darg's team possesses 2 members wearing full metal suits + swords and another member who is entirely reliant on a metal tech implant in his chest to do anything at all. Darg has a high threshold to prove that his team can overcome Deus and Ihwa metal fucking his team, and if he cannot he automatically loses this match
  • Atlas is a waterbender who can throw large waves of water at Darg's team that his team is powerless to stop. Regardless of any speed differences, it is difficult for them stop Atlas from drowning them for 12 seconds and winning when they have to deal with being metalbent by 2 metalbenders
  • My team has objective bullet timing feats within under ~10ms that allow them to rapidly produce projectile offense vs Darg's team while 2 of Darg's team can only produce CQC offense within 25ms and can only react every 20ms and Seiya has serious issues entering a bullet timing category. This produces a significant advantage that snowballs and makes it hard for Darg's team to defend vs my team

Point 1: It's Dinnertime

Deus and Ihwa will fuck over Darg's team by using metal on their bodies to immobilize them, tear their bodies in pieces, and destroy their weapons/use them against them as piercing attacks. Darg has not sufficiently demonstrated that my team will fail to do this

  • Ihwa explicitly does not fight fair, and has no issues with fucking over Darg's team with their metal even if Deus for some reason doesn't
  • Maybe he fired metal in their bodies because, get this, they don't have metal on their bodies! There is an explicit scan of how the people Deus fighting wear stuff that looks like metal but is not actually metal for strategic reasons and somehow Darg comes to the asinine conclusion "it looks like metal!!! Deus not bending metal!!". I have multiple scans of Deus using metal on/in people's bodies against them and the best Darg can come up with "look at how he didn't use metal against fighters he objectively knows are irrelevant to him and isn't seriously motivated to fight".
  • The best argument Darg can win potentially is that "Deus doesn't use metal bending vs small amounts of metal on foes" which is like, relevant for Four Arms sure but completely irrelevant to his 2 knights in shining armor, which just means Four Arms gets 1v3ed.

Darg's arguments suggesting Deus/Ihwa can't immobilize/disassemble his team are trash

  • It does not matter if Seiya and Guts's armors are durable – both are noncontiguous and held together by bolts and straps, which means Deus/Ihwa can exploit those parts to tear the armor off of them without ever having to interact with the armor as a whole
  • The durability of the metal against individual impacts that tests the metal's compressive strength does not matter when Deus/Ihwa can sustain stress within the metal over a period of time to tear it apart that tests the metal's tensile strength- Darg needs to prove why his team's metal is resistant to being torn apart, as taking big impacts is not directly linked with tensile strength for a lot of materials
  • The building level statements/feats for Deus are self-evidently better than taking impacts that bust some concrete/pierce metal- if you can collapse multiple floors fairly easily I'm not sure why metal that takes stone/concrete busting impacts would be an issue
  • Lifting doesn't matter when Seiya/Guts are functionally large metal projectiles themselves and can be used to hit each other

Point 2: Let it Go, Let it Go

When Atlas has a lot of water, he generally attacks foes with waves, tagging Viis a bullet timer with one and tagging multiple Originals when he had water from across a city. Darg's team lacks the speed and power to deal with this and will be drowned for 12 seconds for an easy incap.

Point 3: Call me Garou, Cause Some Heroes are About to be Killed

Darg's team does not have a reasonable counter to Ihwa's shocking electricity, and will perish quickly as she cycles though her offense. They also can't deal with the piercing/tracking combo she can do with is guaranteed to pierce Darg's team a bunch and give out their locations

1

u/EmbraceAllDeath ​ May 21 '22

Round 2, Response 3 Part (2/3)

Point 4: Gotta go fast

Deus and Atlas

Code Adam is a universe where characters operate in bullet timing frames

Atlas is fast

  • Atlas is not "spot activating" – He is cohering vapor at some distance away from the bullets into an ice projectile, and then hitting the bullets mid-flight with those ice projectiles, and this is true for all of his bullet timing feats. This implies that Atlas can track the movement of bullets mid-air and coordinate ice movements within that time where those projectiles move faster than the bullets to pierce them. Darg saying that shooting bullets mid air is "aim blocking" makes me question every interpretation of my feats he has made in this debate
  • You know, it's wild how Dargoo claims that benders in Code Adam have to see the stuff they're bending so they can't deal with invisibility while simultaneously claiming that Atlas moved after he intercepted the bullets when his back was literally turned to the gunmen as they shot. Because Dargoo is contradicting himself, you cannot take any position he takes on this argument on this seriously, while my claims that bending in CA uses movement and "Originals in CA can sense elements they bend to see outside their line of sight" are logically consistent with the bullet timing feat above- Atlas sensed bullets firing at him with his water vapor not his eyes and was able to block those bullets before they hit by moving to turn towards the bullets and that movement created ice projectiles that pierced into the bullets before they reached Atlas.
  • In any case, the anti-feat used by Darg is stupid- Atlas blocks a bullet of blood that moves at ??? speed, and then gets pierced by that bullet travels faster/stronger than a normal bullet would and surprises him because he thought the shield would cover him. Atlas should move/bend relatively fast, because other Originals like Deus move/bend fast
  • No, I don't need to quantify every ice-bending move Atlas makes – This is implied as "happens fast within Nine/Atlas's view" and suggesting that somehow showing some bullet timing relative to Atlas's ice bending is not enough, but that everything he does needs to be related to the speed of bullets is a terrible way to write a story- I have demonstrated that bending in CA is linked to movement and that movement and bending for Originals in CA is fast, hence that is sufficient to disprove Darg's claims that he contradicts himself on and most of the times Darg says CA benders "don't move" has a lot of their bodies off screen
  • Atlas can send a barrage of fast ice projectiles and obliterate Darg's slow moving team or use a wave that bullet timers like Deus can do nothing about.

Deus is fast

  • His movement speed is self-evident from this feat, Sands is constantly moving these projectiles within a couple inches from him and he manages to move multiple times faster than the projectiles, which is good for his reactions and speed
    • "head moves same distance as the projectiles" PLEASE get your eyes checked and look at the album again
  • Whether Deus hits Atlas or his platform doesn't matter- he lands a metal bending attack before Atlas can react to it, which generally suggests that bending in CA is not sluggishly slow in comparison to reactions by Originals in CA, and he tags someone (Viis) who I've stated is relevant in speed to Atlas and a fellow Original who can react and block Atlas's bullet speed projectiles from a close distance after they're fired

Ihwa

Seiya

I literally do not care about any of these feats – literally every interaction with the projectiles happens at a large distance, which means that even if Seiya can move fast, he cannot react fast and adjust his movement/initiate offense at the same level my characters can leaving him way behind

Guts/Four Arms

  • Guts can never tag my team, his offense is "swing a large heavy sword at a slow speed compared to him striking within 25ms when all of my team bullet time within single digit milliseconds
  • Their speed is just slow, they're incapable of consistently dodging bullets from ordinary people, let alone my bullet timing team sending supersonic projectiles from multiple angles at them.

Point 5: Tough Times Never Last but Tough People do

Piercing Shit

No you can't pierce me

  • literally any piercing they have assumes 2 metal benders aren't limiting their movements and aren't facing rusting powers from Ihwa. Like how do you pierce my characters when they're slow and my team can limit the momentum coming to them where they should worry more about holding onto the sword from being used against them by metal bending that operates on a building level scale.
  • Darg’s interpretation of my characters’s stats rely on Hyperliteral interpretation that ignores narrative intent and generally uses battleboarding standards in a way that is incomprehensible to the average person. Atlas and Deus are both Original Horrors, which means they got their powers from experimentation, with the main difference between them being that Atlas controls water/ice and Deus controls metal- they otherwise get their speed/dura/strength etc from being made from the same batch of Originals and should not have widely differing stats in that category. Deus talks mad shit about how he's the strongest Original and then just gets beaten by Atlas with casual ease. Yes, Atlas "Doesn't have a direct piercing durability feat", but if you think that Atlas is somehow this soft flesh blob who can pierced by anything when the only things that pierce him are "projectiles that are unquantifiably better than bullets" while Deus is this super durable monster then you are incapable of understanding the story of Code Adam- Atlas has no reason to be much less durable than Deus while having multiple reasons to be at least as durable as him, and every example Darg saying "you don't have a feat for this!" or "you don't have a feat for that" is informed by pedantry that completely ignores what our picks as real characters do against each other and only looks at caricatures of them
  • Wild how Deus is being hit by a "blunt tendril" that looks so pointy - Darg is literally just linking the image before Atlas sharpened the tendril and straight up misrepresenting scans
  • In any case, Atlas and Deus can take piercing that goes cleanly through metal and concrete as does Ihwa, which allows them to take the occasional piercing attack from Darg's slowpokes if they somehow manage to tag them and keep fighting. The metal/ice shields + Ihwa's body blades also protect them beyond that

Blunt shit

  • Atlas
    • Atlas is taking a punch from Viis, an Original, who's cells are the sole basis for Hinelea's strength, who is a T-2 and hence strictly weaker than Viis. It makes more sense to assume that Viis is kicking Atlas through 3 thick concrete walls, and hence is outputting comparable strength to the large hole Hinelea makes in a concrete floor vs Deus, then it is to assume that Viis is hitting Atlas through paper-mache walls and hence is somehow way weaker than a woman who's power are straight up derived from him. He can easily taking large concrete busting strikes and continue to fight, which allows him to deal with Darg's slow team if they somehow land a hit on him
  • Deus
    • If you think that grabbing someone by the neck and hitting them through the floor isn't comparable to a punch then you are just parroting "surface area" without understanding what it means. Similarly, having half of a building collapse on you and getting up from that ready to fight is not the anti-feat you think it is

1

u/EmbraceAllDeath ​ May 21 '22

Round 2, Response 3 Part (3/3)

Point 6: Seiyashit

Invisibility

Darg wants to make the argument that Originals have to see what they're bending to bend it, when this is blatantly not true. Their invisibility is a nonfactor, and their assumption that they're invisible when they're not backfires on them

Copying

No, the copying doesn't work. While skills may cover "mundane stuff", the game aspect of Seiya's worlds are incredibly important – When he moves from one RPG world to another he loses all of his abilities and starts again at a new level. This implies that the RPG skills of mimicry that Seiya uses are specific to the world Seiya is on, and can't be translated to other worlds. Ihwa on the other hand, has no specified restrictions on her power copying besides "has to touch her foe" and has copied an ability to terraform an area into a snowglobe, something that is close to Atlas and Deus's abilities to bend the elements around them. At best for Darg, both Ihwa and Seiya can power copy and hence Ihwa can copy the invisibility/hands stuff but Four Arms/Guts don't have a way to deal with invisibility while my team does, while at worst Ihwa can copy powers while Seiya can't because his series has codified restrictions around his abilities while Ihwa doesn't.

Hands

Not a factor – they don't have any resistance to electricity that Ihwa can coat herself in or her blade limbs (try grappling someone covered with spikes), and Atlas can intercept multiple bullets with his ice projectiles, why would he care about hands that move slower than that while Deus can surf above ground tendrils with a "skateboard. My team can create their own ice/metal "hands" to create the same effect so it cancels out

OOT Request

As presented, Seiya is OOT for Venom

  • Seiya is described as going invisible at the start of the round, and starts out of line of sight vs Venom.
  • Seiya has been described as using multiple spectral hands from the ground at no cost to him to immobilize Venom and these hands can hold down a large dragon who almost certainly weighs tens of tons
  • My characters have been described as having no idea they're facing invisible characters and that they'll assume the spectral hands are the foes they're facing. This means that Venom goes into this match with no idea where Seiya is or that he intends to attack him while being restrained by multiple hands that he cannot feasibly deal with that have significant restraining power relative to him.
  • Seiya has a sword that makes cuts that negate Venom's regen and is described as piercing and slicing through material stronger than metal. Venom's piercing resistance is at best being slightly pierced by claws that cut through steel, and cannot resist his blade, and Dargoo calls an attack that pierces more metal than the claws that Venom faces as "clearly worse" than Seiya's piercing
  • Seiya is described to block with his arm an attack that leaves a giant crater
  • Seiya is described as having "relevant movement and reaction speed to the opponents Seiya has on Embrace's team", in a context of Ihwa having a clear cut bullet timing feat that Dargoo never disputes and says that Seiya can weave through/deflect supersonic projectiles.

In short, Venom is facing an opponent that is invisible to him, can hurt him very easily with his sword, and take hits from Venom while Venom is being restrained by strong hands. Venom does not have the capability to fend off against Seiya and hence Seiya is OOT for Venom.

/u/Wapalatus and /u/TooAmasian

1

u/Wapulatus ​ May 21 '22

Areana of Assholes, Round 2, Response 3

my team continues to mog

Summary

As the last response, this will focus more on how Embrace has generally argued her characters, and not have too many new points introduced outside of rebuttals to specific feats/techniques.

I am also writing this only a couple hours before the deadline and have an OOT to tackle after this, so this will be mostly very rough spot rebuttals.

Part 1: Elick Was Right All Along

Iwha

Embrace cannot prove she uses his powers in any particular way - she could equally see "try push opponent down" or "try to break arm by pushing/pulling on metal on arm" as 'unfair'.

Iwha is also characterized as Russian-rouletting through powers, if she's sampling through Deus' ability I doubt she'll put meaningful thought into it before throwing another dart at the board to see what sticks.

how the people Deus fighting wear stuff that looks like metal

Only one guy has this as the case and I have never used him to argue any point about Deus manipulating metal on bodies. Embrace does not meaningfully prove that the metal pieces on the other characters I discussed are not metal.

The best argument Darg can win potentially is that "Deus doesn't use metal bending vs small amounts of metal on foes"

Deus has also never metal-bent meaningful bits of metal on a person's body that he did not jam in there himself outside of one inconsistent case. Shit like this:

both are noncontiguous and held together by bolts and straps, which means Deus/Ihwa can exploit those parts to tear the armor off of them without ever having to interact with the armor as a whole

When the everloving fuck has Deus done something like this. I have no reason to believe he'll try doing something like this. Deus is not granted meta-awareness of how to most efficiently use his powers, Embrace needs to prove he fights like she claims and she just did not do that for half of the points she argued.

Rest of the metal points Embrace brings up are dog cheese and I'm tired of debating anti-metal

Part 2: Wasteful Water Usage

Atlas' flood is still not meaningfully fast, none of what Embrace claimed lets him summon it at speeds that are relevant for the team.

The main counterpoints to what I argued is it happens relative to "fast" people and he can't summon it because he's fighting other people.

  • Embrace just does not establish in any response how fast these people can run/move - how fast she says they fight "relevant" to Atlas but this doesn't really infer any ability to run from large objects chasing them.

Finally, Embrace has argued that Atlas does many many things that are not flooding in and around this fight. Is he going to spend time building an ice platform, or is he going to try shooting projectiles at them?. Is he going to try making/manipulating mist around my team to summon ice on them?

Embrace did not show him doing all these different techniques simultaneously - and doesn't really prove that he will choose to do any of these over the others - flooding is not a consistent wincon as she has argued it.

no need to surround Darg's team with mist – they're already in the soup.

Atlas requires extremely visible, dense mists to do what Embrace claims, judges can take one look at the map via the OP or my R2 and just observe mists like this don't cover the ship.

Part 3: Fast as a Hare, Slow as a Snail

Seiya

The text describes the fly guy maneuvering around "each", this requires him to at least react once as they're passing by him so yes it's fast lol.

The second one happens at a fast distance but the old guy starts swinging his sword when they're much closer, the second scan is Seiya reacting to his sword when he's a young emo demon. Seiya's reaction time is fine.

Guts + Four Arms

they're incapable of consistently dodging bullets from ordinary people

Spidey is both focused on parkouring around buildings in that scan alongside evading a machinegun burst. Guts/Four Arms don't really have anything to focus on besides "dodge the projectile" and are given hard numbers of a 20 ms reaction, 20 m/s dodging, and can dodge pistol rounds on reaction. Embrace's team also gives them plenty of opportunity to dodge on reacting to attack prep:

While I believe some of Embrace's team reacts faster than this, most of them do not fight competently. Embrace has consistently argued her team as focusing on big flashy esoterics over more practical power uses, just look at how much space was alloted in arguments to Deus trying to metalbend my team or Atlas flooding vs. any other attack.

  • Deus' metalbending is inefficient and won't stop my team running at him
  • Atlas either spends time building snow sculptures at speeds of ??? or chases my team down with slow mist
  • Iwha is trying to chase down her own team-mates and coordinate a round of high fives, trying to disarm my team,

Atas

This is implied as "happens fast within Nine/Atlas's view"

Nothing in this is stated to be or implied to be happening fast in anyone's view, the only person viewing it from this perspective is the audience, and they have no reference for how fast it is happening.

everything he does needs to be related to the speed of bullets is a terrible way to write a story

It's one thing to say "here is him making drops of ice fast, he can make drops of ice fast outside of this context in the story" and another to say "here is him making drops of ice fast, ok now assume he can summon gigamassive pillars/shields and superstructures of ice at the same speed, please thanks" - yes you need to actually prove your vastly different attacks happen at relevant speeds to be threatening.

benders in Code Adam have to see the stuff ... Atlas moved after he intercepted the bullets when his back was literally turned to the gunmen as they shot. Because Dargoo is contradicting himself

My main point is that they use their abilities based on information they get from their eyes, this is not contradicted by Atlas' feat.

I also did not claim they absolutely need to have a line of sight to just use their powers, just that when they don't it's vague and shitty and meaningless so it wouldn't apply to my team. They need a line of sight to use their powers efficiently and effectively.

Darg says CA benders "don't move"

I claimed that they don't need to move, not that they never ever move, and they aren't meaningfully shown moving in the bullet feats. Like Deus obviously not moving his hands from his pockets here, I don't know what else to say.

that bullet travels faster than a normal bullet

Embrace doesn't evidence this.

The tendril feat is from when's a kid

Which would be relevant if he had like one or two speed feats for his tendrils as an adult.

Deus

Whether Deus hits Atlas or his platform doesn't matter- he lands a metal bending attack before Atlas can react to it

Nothing really shows this happens before Atlas can react, only that it happens in a way Atlas can't prevent (shatters his ice megastructure with a metal megastructure, both of which are created at speeds of idk). Atlas also just doesn't seem to give many shits about all of that happening.

movement speed is self-evident from this feat

I mean it's not. We don't have any idea how fast the projectiles are, they're held in the air with metal powers and not fired in a straight line via velocity.

Like I said last round there's no reason to assume they move particularly fast or slow, the feat is meaningless.

PLEASE get your eyes checked and look at the album again

They move a large distance, yes. Here's the scan if you didn't notice it, notice how the projectiles have passes the area his head was originally at and moved 2-3 feet while Deus crouches to half his height... or 2-3 feet.

1

u/Wapulatus ​ May 21 '22

Iwha

It is unclear whether Condor dodges or tanks

I would bank on the guy that can cut Iwha a bagillion times in a close range interaction with her as dodging over tanking, idk.

If Embrace is arguing she reacts to him too on top of this then basically nothing is consistent between the two and no one feat in that fight can be argued to be a particular timeframe.

Yeah dude I totally wouldn't expect a power copier to try to copy my powers when we fight together GOOD argument

Deus and Atlas are also aware that she does a million other things and have no idea which she will try first or prioritize. Do they expect the blade user to cut things? Do they expect the tentacle user to use their tentacles? Do they expect the explosion user to explode things?

Even if they are aware what Iwha's first move is through meta-battleboard awareness they still have zero argued movement speed capabilities and will waste time running to Iwha and vice versa while my team just does its thing.

run 2000 yards in the time it takes for Chaos to reload his gun

She just runs faster than he can aim after he gushes about how cool she is for an unspecified time, nothing says she covered the distance while he was reloading.

A character moving like at the speed of a street surface car with the ability to pingpong around cover would basically be impossible for a gunman to shoot.

She bullet times from a way closer distance than anyone on Darg's team, why would they be able to touch her

I've already gone over why I think this previously, but to state again:

She wastes that speed cycling through questionably fast, near-universally useless techniques while my team runs up to and punches/cuts her. If Embrace wasn't piling on more and more random useless things of "what to do before I just try hitting the team" to her queue of things to do in the fight that might change things.

And while Four Arms and Guts are much slower, Seiya has good speed feats that I've argued to compete with this.

Part 4: Potent Piercing vs. Penniless Papercuts

my team cut good take cut good

Iwha

Seiya and Guts have plenty of gaps in their armor, and Ihwa's blades functionally acts as non-sword piercing attacks

Iwha is basically using swords but taped to her limbs, lol. It's like me saying a set of medieval armor would not stop me from slashing it with a kitchen knife because it's not a sword.

Embrace doesn't give any scans of Iwha attacking armor gaps over just slashing my characters, I've established Seiya/Guts/Four Arms as having relevant durability to attacks to not be sliced apart by her - even if she can slightly cut into Guts/Seiya's armor it's armor and an attack that doesn't fully pierce it doesn't hurt Guts/Seiya meaningfully.

she is hitting you with a blunt strike

The scan for this only shows her piercing something, I don't even know what Embrace is trying to say here

Atlas

original horror lore

https://imgur.com/IAEQDPz

Deus

looks so pointy

From like dozens of feet away yes, the scan I used was zoomed in on the tip, showing it was blunt.

Part 5: Unga Bunga Time

yeah atlas and deus' blunt durability still sucks moving on

Part 6: Seiyashit Continues

Invisibility

metal out of sight

other guy senses metal from a mile away

This doesn't infer any kind of accuracy or even ability to sense an exact location, and is related to metalbender-metalbender power interactions so whatever.

senses at party

i'm not reading an entire webtoon chapter like 30 minutes before the deadline to determine if this is good so I will assume it's shitty

Atlas

I still think the feat is him just randomly wrecking around the building and is just generally bad.

Four Arms and Guts are lumbering heavy giants

Embrace doesn't like actually post scans or prove this, idk how this applies to Guts at all and even in the case of Four Arms Embrace didn't provide any feats of her team pinpointing opponents via sound

Copying

When he moves from one RPG world to another he loses all of his abilities and starts again at a new level

Seiya can copy abilities from Rista, who is the goddess isekaing him to different worlds and who is not from a specific world, I do not know how any of this is relevant and embrace doesn't evidence half of it

Also "your abilities stop working the moment you're on the battlefield" is something the OP is specified to not be a thing.

iwha has copied stuff similar to Atlas/Deus

Seiya has used elemental powers all the time very similar to Atlas's powers among many other elements - the crux of Embrace's point is "Seiya is from a different series with different rules" and this like obviously also applies to Iwha.

Ihwa can copy the invisibility/hands stuff

Ihwa touching Seiya through his armor is monumentally harder to do than it is for Seiya to just look at her team doing something.

Hands

Everything Embrace described as counters are advantageous for my team - her team will waste time trying to deal with them while Four Arms/Guts goes up to and hit them.

Rebuttals

Ihwa doesn't shock anybody because EVERYONE is superhuman

I should like not even need to explain why this is a dumb excuse for her not using her power in the way Embrace argues it. People can be superhuman and not resist electricity.

Conclusions

  • Guts/Seiya still cut in a way Deus/Atlas have not interacted, cut them. Four Arms punches them hard and mogs. Iwha needs to 3v1 my team very shortly after the two teams engage.
  • Atlas/Deus's ability to physically dodge and do macro-scale element manipulation is still questionable or just bad
  • Invisibility still exists
  • Both Iwha/Seiya power copy or neither do

2

u/Wapulatus ​ May 21 '22

Seiya OOT Defense

Seiya is fine.

Seiya is described as going invisible at the start of the round, and starts out of line of sight vs Venom.

yeah ok

multiple spectral hands from the ground at no cost to him to immobilize Venom and these hands can hold down a large dragon who almost certainly weighs tens of tons

Venom has excellent vertical mobility. He can just crawl up walls to get to higher ground, can websling to just not touch the ground + get to higher ground using webs that move "just a hair under mach 1 at the tip".

Venom can "get into a favorable position against one arm" against arms that are "capable of lifting and throwing 100 tons". Even against the random number of tons Embrace brought up to make the hands look OOT Venom matches more than favorably. This doesn't get into the fact that the hands have more area to apply leverage to the dragon they are grabbing, nor do they physically lift it up off the ground. The hands just happen to match very favorably against opponents with shitty lifting ability.

My characters have been described as having no idea they're facing invisible characters and that they'll assume the spectral hands are the foes they're facing. This means that Venom goes into this match with no idea where Seiya is or that he intends to attack him while being restrained by multiple hands that he cannot feasibly deal with that have significant restraining power relative to him.

As argued by me this is only relevant for like, the very start of the fight when Seiya starts using it, and is more relevant when he has group members who can go and attack for him. This would stop being any kind of advantage the moment Seiya moves in to make a hit and Venom realizes he's fighting someone invisible.

This also assumes Venom makes no effort to avoid being grappled - Venom shouldn't need to take any kind of extensive action to just pull out of the hands or avoid them via vertical movement, after that it's just him vs. an invisible opponent.

Seiya has a sword that makes cuts that negate Venom's regen

Igzazion's ability to negate regen is not very relevant if Seiya is not cutting into Venom massively, which he doesn't. It doesn't prevent flesh wounds form scarring over in a way that prevents bleeding.

Unless he is cutting off a limb he is not doing more than making Venom look more badass.

slicing through material stronger than metal. Venom's piercing resistance is at best being slightly pierced by claws that cut through steel, and cannot resist his blade

Durability does not work like that. Venom's ability to resist claws that "easily slice through steel" to scratches on his skin is relevant to Seiya. While Seiya pierces material stronger than steel (by some arbitrary amount), the amount he pierces is vague or not particularly thick.

I do think Seiya can pierce into Venom more than the claws shown in his tiersetter feat, however Venom's ability to not give shits about piercing attacks that pierce way more into him means that Seiya's primary means of attack is not very effective on him. Venom is also just very thick, look at any image of him.

in a context of Ihwa having a clear cut bullet timing feat that Dargoo never disputes and says that Seiya can weave through/deflect supersonic projectiles.

I argued Seiya has relevant movement and reaction in that he is both fast and invisible while fighting Iwha - I didn't really argue him as particularly fast or slow relevant to her but just "enough to be effective". If "enough speed to be effective" vs one of your team-members is OOT I don't know why Embrace is the one making the OOT request here.

Yes deflecting/weaving through supersonic projectiles is like by the books in-tier speed lol.

Seiya is described to block with his arm an attack that leaves a giant crater

ok, and?

This crater is like large but extremely shallow and in dirt. It's good durability but I doubt it would let Seiya take repeated full force attacks from Venom or last against him in a sustained fight or grapple.

Venom is facing an opponent that is invisible to him

Something Venom has done before lmao.

When Venom realizes he has an invisible opponent he starts pulling stealth himself to negate the advantage, and also sends out tendrils that make approaching him to attack borderline impossible without giving away one's location. He then uses his close-to-mach speed super glue to then grapple and tag Seiya in a way that would make his location clearly visible.

Without offense that is reliably lethal to Venom Seiya also falls into the issue of Venom just being more resilient and having more stamina in a prolonged fight, which will likely occur if the two are chasing each other down while invisible.

In sum Seiya cannot hurt Venom easily, his invisibility is something Venom has encountered and fought off before.

Like I said in my justification, Venom matches very favorably to "pierce good swordsmen", Embrace is just making me explain this with more than three words.

/u/EmbraceAllDeath

/u/TooAmasian

1

u/EmbraceAllDeath ​ May 21 '22

Round 3, Conclusions

My team has significant advantages that allow them to dominate this fight

  • I am using 2 metal benders, one of who abuses it to immobilize foes/tear apart enemies/disassemble enemy weapons and use them against foes while the other has a demonstrated history of fighting unfairly and is a skilled fighter. Both face a team that all wears metal, where 2 of them are knights in shining armor while the other has a metal implant that they are reliant on their powers for in their chest. This advantage allows them to screw Darg's team at the start and generally places them at an definitive advantage they can't overcome
  • Atlas has a demonstrated history of using large waves of water when he has access to them that is capable of tagging bullet timers. Darg's team has no way to avoid this attack, and will be easily be swept into the ocean for 12 seconds and autolose. All of the issues brought up with Atlas assume that he lacks water when in this round he has an entire ocean behind him that he can just go and thrown while being surrounded by ridiculous amounts of humid air
  • Darg's team is in projectile hell- All members of my team can use metal/ice projectiles capable of piercing concrete/metal from the surrounding metal/water, and can spam this from multiple angles with a sixth of Ihwa's projectiles being undodgeable at bullet speeds which ensures that Darg's team will get hit a lot even if they somehow overcome a wave attack/metal bending stuff
  • My team has 3 fighters who can bullet time at close distance in single digit milliseconds. Darg's team suffers from landing their offense in 25ms and having 20ms reactions while Seiya lacks feats of reacting to projectiles at a close range. This gives my team an initiative advantage that can snowball together even if all other factors are held equal, and makes it impossible for Darg's team to land their offense on my team
  • Ihwa is generally impossible to counter by Dargoo's team, as she fights with blunt/piercing strikes that cut through steel, can rust through the metal that Darg's team is reliant on, and uses electricity that nobody on Darg's team has direct resistance to. On the other hand, my team is generally resistant to blunt impacts that fracture a lot of concrete and piercing attacks that they can stop with metalbending/rusting anyways which makes it easy for them to take the occasional hit even if Darg's slow team somehow lands a hit on them
  • Darg's team's invisibility is generally countered by my team's extrasensory abilities from being Originals which places Darg's team in a false sense of safety, and any hands are countered by the fact that my team can pull ground tendrils/projectiles that are much more annoying than attacks from 1 person.