r/whowouldwin • u/TooAmasian ​ • May 16 '22

Event Arena of Assholes Round 2

Welcome to the second round of Arena of Assholes, aka Venom Tier

This is a debate focused bracketed tournament where users pick characters to argue against other users, with a certain character (Venom in this case) functioning as a measuring stick to prevent any one user from being too strong or unfair. You pick four characters, enter into rounds, and then argue you win against someone else with their picks.

In this tournament specifically, you choose 4 characters to run that can range from "unlikely to likely victory" against the tier setter Venom. The 4th pick works as a "rotating backup," meaning you choose only 3 of your characters to participate prior to each round.

The Brackets

Round 2 - 3v3s

The Tier Setter

Example of this kind of debate

This tier is designed for strong characters who can deliver and take hits that destroy copious amounts of concrete while being fast enough to bullet-time at close distances.

The tier setter is an idealized version of the sinister symbiote, Venom.

Venom

Full Tourney RT

Stat Interp
Strength A full force blow launches an opponent through several floors hard enough to embed into asphalt
Speed Bullet timing reactions, can run 100 mph and web-sling at 200 mph. Superhuman agility.
Durability Is fine being punched through a very thick concrete wall
Range Tentacles can reach around 20 feet when standing still and a decent distance greater than his melee range in combat
Misc Has tentacles that can extend his range, web-slinging for mobility, and anti-stealth measures by "seeing" out of his skin

Rules

Arena Rules- Round 2's arena will be Carrier from Call of Duty: Black Ops 2

  • Spawn points and other relevant images

    • Team 1 (Spawn 1, 2, 3) is the top team in the comment and Team 2 (Spawn A, B, C) is the bottom team

  • Video tour of the map

  • Carrier gameplay

  • The carrier is stationary in the ocean and will not sink

  • The carrier is fully accessible (this means the back portion of the carrier near Team 1's spawn can be accessed)

  • Do not be an asshat with arena rulings. Do not make arguments like "This is real earth, so abilities do not work" or "I become omnipotent due to magic present in the arena."

  • Assume materials within the map are made of and equivalent to their real life counterparts (vehicles are made of metal, etc.)

  • The deck floor is made of solid concrete, for tourney purposes, the lower decks don't exist and just a solid mass of concrete

  • There's is an invisible WhoWouldWinium wall 100 ft off the edge of the carrier in the ocean to prevent escaping the map and the sky caps at the troposphere

    • WhoWouldWinium is an infinitely durable material that otherwise has properties equivalent to balsa wood and cannot be affected in any way. It is fully sapient and has the authority to disqualify your characters if you attempt to abuse it

  • Combatants can access the water, but staying on the surface/underwater for 12 whole seconds counts as a DQ

  • All "sunlight' present in the arena is fake sunlight that grants whatever normal powers but will not inhibit vampires or other characters with an inherent weakness via a WWWinium lightbulb. It is as warm and bright as normal sunlight.

Battle Rules

  • All combatants are aware of the basics of their allies' combat abilities but are in the blind on their opponents (unless they have canon knowledge of said person via sharing a fictional universe)

  • All combatants are fully aware that their enemy must be defeated for them to be able to survive, to be able to return to their home reality, and for the omnipotent organizers of this scenario to be satisfied. All combatants are aware of rules for the objective of the tournament

  • Incapacitation is defined by being unable to continue fighting. Being knocked out, being killed, being BFRd, or fully succumbing to exhaustion. If this condition is met for more than 12 full seconds, your character loses, and in a 3v3, they are removed from the arena in a flash of light after being incapacitated for 12 seconds. To reiterate, combatants are aware of this rule. Note that being restrained does not count as being unable to fight if it's something like a physical grapple or generally something that needs concentration to maintain, for example, you can't hold someone in a full nelson for 12 seconds to delete them from a 3v3.

  • Summons or 'fake' characters do not count for the purpose of a win condition - for instance, if a conjurer died in a 1v1 and left behind his 2 zombies, he would still automatically lose. This also applies to hive-minds or drone characters. This also means that characters who can reasonably be considered one entity can be run with ruling on a case by case basis, and will likely need to have a Prime Entity stipulated. This is, as well, determinable case by case without a specific end all be all example.

  • Every combatant starts each round being teleported into the arena, knowing full well whomever they face down needs to die or be incapacitated in order for they themselves to advance and win and will do so.

  • All combatants begin without any weapons drawn or abilities active, hands idle at their sides, and the moment they teleport in they can begin combat

  • All combatants are in-character for the tourney itself

  • Characters with holsters or similar will begin with their weapons holstered, characters with weapons that cannot feasibly be holstered will begin with the weapons pointed at the ground.

Debate Rules

  • Rounds will last roughly 5 days, from now Monday until Saturday at noon EST of each week of the tourney; there is a 48 hour time limit both on starting (we do not care who starts, you and your opponent can figure that out, after Round 2 however we will mandate this) AND on responses, AND ADDITIONALLY each user MUST get in two responses or else be disqualified. If one user waits until the very last minute to force this rule to DQ their opponent without any forewarning to their opponents or the tournament supervisors, they will be removed from this tournament, no exceptions.

  • Intros, OOT requests, and conclusions are a max of 10k characters

  • Intros can be used to set up arguments such as by laying out that stats of your characters

  • Out of Tier Mechanic- A character can be veto'd mid tourney if the opposing debater calls for an Out of Tier review and the head judge agrees they are out of tier.

    • An OOT requests works by pinging the head judge (me) and explaining why the character has been argued as Out of Tier by the opponent
    • Each participant gets 3 OOT request for the whole tournament which is lost whenever their OOT fails to go through, this is done to avoid abusing the mechanic

  • You can not bring up new points in your conclusions, it is used to succinctly summarize and go over your prior arguments

  • Format for each round: the one to go first gets an Intro + 1st Response, their opponent replies in kind, then both get a 2nd response, then a 3rd response in a back-and-forth style, and a closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. Reponses are max of a 20k characters each spread along a max of 3 comments.

  • Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are determined by randomization. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa.

Victory Conditions

Winning a match will be determined by a council of 5 judges. Each specific round will be judged by 2 judges with a 3rd judge coming in if needed for a tiebreaker. Judgements are based upon who made the more convincing argument not which character "objectively" wins the matchup.

Links

Pre-Tournament

Tournament

Results

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u/Ame-no-nobuko May 20 '22

Response 2 Pt 1

Teamwork

Travel Speed

Ken's team doesn't have time to "group up" as described. Magellan moves at 40 mph, and Samus' speed feat is vague.

  • Even saying generously that she moves at 60 mph, it would take 0.56 seconds for her to reach Magellan.

Everyone on my team can accelerate to mach+ speed

At Mach, it will take 0.21 s for my team to reach Ken's. At Mach 3, 0.07 s. Both well before Samus.

My team can further reduce this time with Orion's ability to teleport via boom tubes. With teleportation, the distance between my team and any of their opponents becomes well below 30 m, regardless of starting location. (At Mach, 30 m can be crossed in 0.09 s)

Regardless how you cut it, Samus can't get to her allies before someone is punching her in the face.

Ranged Combat

Samus

First of all regardless of if she can hit or not, her blasts are useless. In my first response I showed how her esoteric blasts won't do anything to my team, but to reiterate:

  • Rogue - Rogue can absorb energy. This includes energy with a kinetic component and explosions. Everything Samus has to throw at Rogue, at range, is just going to make Rogue stronger

  • Orion - Orion's astro-force blocks energy blasts automatically. Nothing Samus has will touch him.

  • M - Samus' blasts aren't powerful enough to hurt Monet, as I will expand on later

Ken misapplies Samus' rate of fire feat. This feat implies Samus can get a shot off every 19 ms, but the bolts still have to travel to my team and Samus still has to aim properly. A single dodge could account for multiple bolts, and they are flying at mach+ speed to their targets.

Rogue and Monet also both are capable of constantly reacting to sustained attack:

Samus' knack for shooting projectiles in the air has never been tested against projectiles that can perceive and react to her shots at close range. My team aren't dumb bullets, they can react and change direction mid flight.

Magellan

Magellan's attacks aren't fast enough to hit my team, especially not his gas based attack. Its literally gas. It has no strong evidence that it can fill an area in a time frame relevant to a team of mach flying bullet timers.

Applicable to both Magellan and Samus, but neither will have line of sight on my team. Theres a ton of shit in the way. Magellan has no enhanced senses and Samus' blasts aren't strong enough to punch through a ton of junk + a fighter jet. Any "range advantage" they have is minimal and only relevant to the last few meters of gap

My Team

Ken misconstrues what "The Other Half" proposes, partially due to an error on my part. As set up in my first response my team will know their opponents powers from the get go due to a combination of Monet's telepathy, Orion's Mother Box and Rogue's enhanced senses.

From this its an easy decision to send Rogue to Magellan. Between her mach speed and Orion's ability to open a Boom Tube (teleporation gate), she's instantly on Magellan.

My mistake was I thought that Berserker was at spawn point A, with him being the second closest person to Orion after Magellan, when its actually Samus.

Other than Rogue taking out Magellan first, my team wouldn't have any clear reason to divy up or specifically target any individual member of Ken's team. Orion and Monet (and Rogue once she slices Magellan's throat) will work in tandem to attack optimally.

Keep in mind the following:

  • Via Boom Tubes and high travel speed my team can easily jump across the map in double digit microsecond timeframes

  • My team knows all of Ken's team's strengths and weaknesses. If Monet can read the minds of any single combatant on Ken's team my team instantly knows what everyone does

  • Monet's telepathy allows instantaneous information sharing and strategizing between my team + Monet is superhumanly smart

    • Ken tries to argue that Samus and Magellan would group together to make some sort of back to back ranged team, but provides no evidence on how they'd communicate this strategy or what makes them inclined to do so
    • Everyone on my team has extensive experience working on teams (with Rogue and M having been part of the same organization for years) and via TP can instantly decide courses of action avoiding having to yell any plan out loud like Ken's team

Based on the provided evidence its clear that my team has far better synergy and adaptability than Ken's. Especially since Berserker is a near mindless monster.

Samus

Offense

Samus' ability to hurt my team is quite literally zero.

Her best striking feat is sending a heavy guy through a couple inch thick concrete

Samus' strikes probably won't even be felt by Orion, and won't faze the rest of my team. There's a reasons she was ran in Tri-Tier and Spider-man tier. If they can't hurt my team, they can't push them back.

Her energy blasts are equally useless (as they do less damage than her strikes)

  • A ~3 ft wide, but at most an inch deep crater in a wall isn't good. Compare that to literally any of the dura feats I've provided for my team and its nothing

  • Its hard to tell exactly how much material she destroys here vs. what looks like fuel exploding (see the turbine with an explosion blowing out of it, not into it like you'd expect). Even generously assuming this is all her, so what? Punch through a few layers of what appears to be 1-2 inch metal isn't good in comparison to feet of concrete or Orion's "I literally hate doors so much I'd rather fly through a dozen+ feet of rock".

Samus' energy blasts are just consistently bad:

  • Look at this crater or this or even this. I don't think anyone can look at these honestly and say they are even close to the level of damage my team can take.

Her explosions aren't much better. The crater is more bigger, but when you consider 1. This is dirt 2. Its very shallow 3. My team will only be taking a fraction of the damage from this due to surface area, its still ineffective.

Even if I am wrong, as I've noted repeatedly, Samus still can't hurt Orion and Rogue. Orion has the ability to dispel and redirect energy attacks and Rogue gets stronger every time Samus decides to shoot her.

Defense

To re-iterate - Samus has bad durability. This attack staggers her, and its something that everyone on my team can replicate. Per Ken's own admission in sign ups Venom can bite through her armor, and my team has better piercing. Everyone on my team can one shot her.

The idea that she will be able to maintain distance between her and my team is also absurd. Everyone on my team moves faster than her, and none of her attacks can meaningfully slow them down.

1

u/Ame-no-nobuko May 20 '22 edited May 20 '22

Response 2 Pt 2

Berserker

Speed

Berserker won't hit Rogue or Monet. Both are well over 2x faster than him in every way that matters.

Berserker, as argued, will be able to strike from ~3.5 m away covering said distance in 25 ms (1 hit), 80 ms (2 hits), 130 ms (3 hits). Ken insists that every time Berserker attacks my team will have to enter/leave the 3.5 m range in order to avoid his hits, but this is false

  • Small finite movements like the one Rogue does here, allows for efficient dodging vs a comparably fast foe (Rogue was depowered)

    • Rogue/Monet will be perceiving Berserker slower than normal as well, so predicting his attacks would be much easier

  • Alternatively my team could disarm Berserker. Rogue/Monet certainly have sharp enough claws to cut his sword apart and Orion has far better lifting

Similar applies to Orion, small subtle movements could effectively dodge or counter Berserker's blows, and his ability to fire energy blasts means he can still attack Berserker even if he is staying out of range.

Berserker's speed isn't sufficient to dodge/survive the initial blitz. Ken argues he can react/dodge to their blitz anywhere outside of 50 ft. This would be true if M/Rogue were dumb projectiles that had to fly in a straight line, but they are not. They themselves can change direction and react. Considering that both have superior reaction to Berserker, this means they can react at a distance too close for Berserker himself to react, making their attacks very, very difficult for him to dodge or counter.

Additionally speequalized picks can't perceive bullets mid flight

In his response its possible Ken might try and argue that its Berserker that blitzes via jumps, however Berserker being fast is contentious at best.

Offense

Berserker's attacks themselves won't be as effective as Ken claims, even if they hit.

  • Both Rogue and Monet have comparable durability and speed to the TSer, so they should have similar staying power

  • Orion is much more durable than the TSer. This feat shows he should be able to survive anything that Berserker can throw at him

Piercing is even less effective.

My team can withstand attacks that cut through tons of concrete/stone for Rogue/Orion and Monet can withstand her own claws, which can cut through metal very easily.

In my first response I forgot to breakdown, how even if Rogue is cut her healing factor makes piercing an impossible win con:

Ken provides a "better" piercing feat for Berserker, however its just the grounds of some random temple being torn up. What evidence is there that this is rock and not dirt? I am no familiar of many Japanese temples that lay on top of a flat slab of granite.

Defense

Berserker's blunt force durability isn't something that my team can't overcome. In sign ups Ken stated his durability is worse than the TSer's. All of my team has comparable striking to the TSer, and Rogue/M have a significant speed advantage over Berserker so taking him down this way isn't difficult.

The easiest way to beat him however is piercing. As mentioned in my first response all of the feats Ken had used were predicated on shakey, inconsistent scaling. This remains true.

A single hit from Rogue or M could very easily end him

Magellan

Speed

Magellan's speed is inconsistent, regardless of how many 5 layer speed scaling attempts Ken makes:

The scaling used for the Luffy pistol feat is also suspect. He interacts with Magellan in the Summit War arc, but then performs the pistol feat after a timeskip where his Gear whatever speed amp is stated to have been integrated into his base form.

Offense

Regardless the poison won't be effective. Even ignoring baseline resistance, my team is disposed to not get in contact with it:

If they do get some poison in them, it won't be enough:

  • Rogue as noted in base can withstand enough poison to incap 5 elephants, with Wolverine's healing factor she then gains the ability to instantly process/remove enough poison to kill 20 men. Chlorine gas does literally nothing.

    • Ken's argument that his gas has killed 20 men at once is nonsensical. Rogue isn't huffing all of the gas shown in this room, she'd just be exposed to a small amount of it
    • Compare this to Luffy, whose main poison resistance feat is against a vague featless poison. Luffy managed to get in half a dozen hits, despite being poisoned multiple times before going down. Rogue only needs one.

  • Orion isn't human or organic. Orion feeling pain isn't indicative of a nervous system or organs for Magellan's poison to work on. s Brimestone feels pain and he's made of plasma. You can't poison plasma, just like you can't poison Orion.

    • If the mother box can heal him from vaporization by rebuilding him atom by atom, it can remove a poison thats inside him. This could also be used to heal Monet

The non-lethal effects of the poison also don't matter being blind doesn't hamper anyone on my team and Rogue is used to being disoriented

The timeframe the poison takes to take effect isn't anything impressive:

With a timeframe of seconds to harm/kill, even if say Monet gets poisoned, with her speed she can easily kill Magellen and likely get a hit or two in on a different foe before the effects start.

Random Rogue Stuff

Rogue can absorb energy from things even when only adjacent to them or when its inside of someone.

  • Rogue via Captain Marvel can absorb magic, as shown here when she absorbs a power from Sin using a magical hammer thats similar to Mjolnir.

Berserker per stips has an unlimited amount of mana (magical energy) and Samus is using a mech suit that runs on electricity. Rogue can, whenever she chooses to, incap Samus by draining her armor and drain an infinite amount of power from Berserker, amping herself to an insane level.

Conclusion

  • My Team is fast, with Rogue/Monet being virtually untouchable (it doesn't matter how strong you are if you can't hit your opponent)

  • My team has superior team work due to a combination of telepathy and better awareness of combatants

    • They will perform a blitz early on that will swiftly take out all of Ken's team.

  • Samus is essentially useless

  • Everyone on Ken's team is vulnerable to piercing

    • Indisputably Samus and Magellan are

  • Magellan's poison won't impact most of my team and they are all wearing protection

/u/KenfromDiscord

1

u/Ame-no-nobuko May 20 '22

OOT Request

/u/TooAmasian /u/KenfromDiscord

Berserker

As presented Berserker is nearly categorically superior to the TSer, to a degree that Venom's only advantage (speed) is not sufficient to overcome.

Offense

Berserker's strength is probably his best stat, with him capable of: slamming a foe through a giant rock pillar and creating a massive crater in stone

  • Both of these hits one shot Venom. He is shown to be staggered by magnitude weaker strikes

Berserker is also argued to have relevant piercing:

Venom is stated to be at a level of piercing where he can take attacks that cut through steel, with some capacity to heal. At the level of piercing Berserker is described to have he could cut Venom.

If his punch connects with Venom, Venom goes down in one hit. If his sword cuts Venom, it will cut him in half (literally just look at the rock feat, egregious is definetly the right word if it is rock), and per Ken this attack is undodgeable.

Defense

Berserker is argued in a way that makes him more durable than Venom.

This is in contrast with Venom, whose average blows involves sending foes through a few feet of rock/concrete and whose best possible blow notably craters the ground

Venom's piercing is even less useful as Berserker is argued to be far too durable for his bite to be relevant

Venom isn't one shotting Berserker, nor taking him down quickly no matter how you cut it.

Note: Ken's argument in sign ups for why Berserker was in tier hinged on Berserker being less durable than Venom

Speed/Other

While Berserker is speequalized, Ken argues Berserker in a way that Venom's advantage in this arena is minimized:

So Berserker has undodgable attacks, fights in a way that is hard to account for/is skilled and his strikes are undodgeable by someone who can't move dodge a 25 ms hit from within range

Conclusion

Berserker one shots Venom with any of his attacks. If Berserker doesn't go down to Venom easily he is OOT. As shown his durability is too good for Venom to one shot. Ken will likely try and argue that Venom's superior speed means that he can dodge Berserker's attacks for a long time while chaining damage, however his own argument on why Berserker's attacks are undodgeable vs my team, means they are undodgeable to Venom + he straight up argued that Berserker's piercing hits even if its dodged.

Literally just watch this fight and tell me that this character is Venom tier.

Magellan

While Magellan's raw physicals aren't OOT, his poison is argued in a way that Venom can't really contend with.

Offense

Magellan relies on poison with a acid effect.

Magellan is argued to be capable of using this poison as a gas that covers an entire prison floor or strike incredibly fast with poison

  • To emphasize how absurdly fast Ken is arguing the poison. He scales it to blitzing a guy from like 10 feet away, who can block a punch from a version of Luffy, whose notably faster than when he could punch in 12 ms.

  • Additionally said poison is automatically applied if Venom hits Magellan

So Magellan has strong poison that he can either spread AoE or bullet++ speed projectiles, and Venom automatically gets poisoned if he hits Magellan

Defense

Ken argues that Magellan is "completely fine" after taking an attack he scales to being stronger than this

While not crazy on its own, it is sufficient durability to not instantly be mogged by Venom

Conclusion

First of all Ken is likely to try and counter this by arguing that Venom has poison resistance/can dispel it from his body, however how he has presented Magellan and his poison is beyond Venom's ability to counter.

Note: Magellan can do all of this at range, outside of Venom's attack range. So before Venom could even get an attack in, he's coated in a ton of poison that can fuck him up, and he can't purge fast enough. Even if he does get close it isn't an instant win for Venom.

1

u/KenfromDiscord May 21 '22

OOT Defense.

General.

A lot of my opponents OOT request boils down to "Ken's characters have a win condition, and they can hit the tier setter with it". Berserker has a sword and can hit the tier setter with it, Magellan has poison, and can hit Venom with it, this doesnt make them OOT it makes them viable.

Berserker.

Durability.

Venom is characterized as using Blunt Force first in any engagement. From the TS page:

the symbiote fights like an animal. He prefers to use blunt force and striking due to the massive, incredible potency of his blows, then biting, then physically tearing enemies apart, and then extraneous methods like tendrils etc, roughly in that order.

This is significant because Berserker is especially weak to blunt force.

I have no idea why Ame is comparing Berserker's durability to the tier setters durability, when the only thing that matters is how durable Berserker is compared to the TS'ers strength. The only durability feats ive posted for Berserker are:

and

These are both completely outshined by Venom's blows.

It should be especially noted that Venom's all out blow is better than both of Berserkers feats put together

Venom will kill Berserker in a couple blows which he delivers extremely quickly.

Equivalent Opponent - Venom strikes hard enough to launch himself, and has to close the gap. He can throw one punch in 10 milliseconds, ~2 in 52 milliseconds, 3 in ~80-90 ms. This is assuming he doesn't hold or grapple his opponent during this, which he prefers to do.

He hits Berserker once in 10 ms, this is faster than Berserker can react, and again hits him in 52ms only 7ms after Berserker has begun to react and throw out an attack.

Its self evident how Venom beats Berserker at least 3/10 times just from this section.

Speed.

  • My character reacts in 20ms, Venom does it in 5ms.

  • My character moves at 40MPH, Venom does it in 100MPH.

  • My character throws hands once in 25ms, Venom does it at 100m/s

  • My character dodges at 20m/s, Venom does it at 50m/s.

Again my opponents arguments here are "Berserker can hit Venom ergo he's OOT" which is still just not true.

Venom dodges at 50 m/s. At a range of 3.5 ms it takes him 70 ms to dodge. Per Ken's own logic Berserker's 25 ms strike is undodgeable by Venom (Note: This isn't how reaction works in reality and I disagree with Ken's argument, but this is his argument vs. Orion)

This is taking my arguments out of context. Ame argues that Orion will preform a flying tackle against Berserker, and my argument is that because Orion is flying straight at Berserker he must perform a full body dodge, and that he cannot do that while being speed equal.

Obviously this doesnt apply to the Tier Setter as again, hes not speed equal. The idea that I can argue "my speed equalized character with a sword, hits your speed equalized character if he gets to close" and somehow thats completely OOT is just so fundamentally wrong against a TS'er who holds distinct speed advantages in every way that matters.

Offense.

Grappling.

Ame tries to say that Berserker will somehow punch Venom to death, but Berserker has never thrown has never thrown a punch in his life.

Berserker's grappling is an inherit disadvantage for Berserker, if he somehow manages to place a hand on Venom for any period of time, What stops Venom from simply punching him to death? This is not like an ironic question or anything. Explain to me how Berserker makes contact with Venom for actual seconds to grapple him, without being struck once. Its impossible.

Berserker cannot go hit for hit with Venom, Venom's blows fuck him up, and if Berserker grabs Venom thats just an avenue for Venom to get free hits in.

Sword.

Yes Berserker has a sword, Yes the sword Hurts Venom, No thats not OOT, it literally just makes him viable.

This barely pierces Venom.

Even if you want to call the Temple feat significantly better than every other feat, how much better is it? I maintain that this is not sufficient to one shot Venom especially because Venom is described as:

For tier setting purposes, stab wounds and slashes don't bother Venom unless large masses of his symbiote flesh is taken out or his brain/heart is targeted.

Berserker like his name implies isnt targeting the head or the heart, instead preferring to just swing at his opponents midsection.

Conclusion.

Berserkers dura is insufficient to take multiple hits from Venom, his speed is categorically worse in every major aspect, and the feats that do allow Berserker to hit Venom are simply helping him maintain a win condition, not 10/10ing Venom by any means. Berserker's sword offense is enough to injure Venom but not to one shot by any means. Grappling is useless against Venom.

Magellan.

In Character Behaviour.

According to Amasian, Magellan is bloodlusted during his Tier Setter fight, according to WWW, this means that Magellan will

When a character uses the full extent of his/her abilities in a fight as efficiently as they know how and goes straight for the kill.

This essentially means that Magellan will never use the Poison Hydra, instead opting to go for the Poison Demon, an explicitly stronger ability that sacrifices speed for pure poison power, and strength, Poison Demon is explicitly Magellan's deadliest ability. However it is slow.

Poison Demon is Magellan's trump card, Luffy is slower than Venom, Poison Demon cannot touch Luffy, Poison Demon cannot touch Venom, making Magellan an extremely unlikely victory when Bloodlusted.

Durability.

My opponent mentions Magellan's single durability feat, but again I dont know why. Its extremely obvious that Magellan is going to take significant damage from any single one of Venom's offensive options.

Magellan is a glass cannon, he cannot take a single blow without immediately dying.

A few asides;

Venom is more durable than a man who already resists Magellan's win conditions enough to strike him more than once.

Poison

Again a lot of my opponents OOT request boils down to "Ken's characters have a win con and can hit venom with it" that isnt inherently OOT.

The only thing i've defined about the Venom Hydra is being able to hit characters with ~19ms reaction times. Venom reacts in 5, and moves 100MPH.

The idea that every attack Magellan throws out will hit Venom is an obvious falsehood, with Venom being exceptionally good at dodging.

While Magellan is able to hit Venom at range, that only seeks to cement Magellan as a glass cannon as if Venom were to ever get close to Magellan he would immediately die.

Conclusion.

Magellan will not use Poison Hydra against the TS'er, due to the nature of Bloodlusting. Magellan is not durable enough to contend with Venom, he immediately dies to one of Venom's attacks no matter the strength. While the poison is strong is does not allow Magellan to more than 7/10 venom.

/u/TooAmasian /u/Ame-no-nobuko

1

u/KenfromDiscord May 21 '22

OOT Request.

I believe Ame has presented all of his characters as OOT.

Rogue.

From the in tier justifications.

Rogue - She's likely faster (comparable reaction, slightly better movement) and has sufficient dura to survive anything Venom can throw, as well as superior baseline dura. Her healing factor gives her a lot of staying power, but her claws are virtually irrelevant vs. Venom. Likely Victory.

Speed.

  • According to my opponent Rouge has a reaction time of 8ms. She strikes at 115m/s and " Quickly accelerates to the speed of sound + keeps up with fighter jets"
    • The Speed of Sound is 767 MPH
    • Neither combatant can preform an action is 3ms, this is functionally the same reaction time, a distinction without a difference.

This is vastly superior to Venom, who reacts in 5ms, strikes at 100m/s and moves at 100MPH

I shouldnt have to mention this but having a travel speed of 7.5x the tier setter makes almost any offense immediately OOT. With this amount of speed difference Ame's character controls every facet of combat. Rogue controls when and where combat happens and can immediately disengage from any situation.

  • Ame insists that Rogue will be able to dodge Berserker's sword, which takes up 3.5m of space because "Small finite movements like the one Rogue does here, allows for efficient dodging vs a comparably fast foe" Venom is 7.5 times slower than Rogue, the idea that he'll ever hit her is a joke. Ame has presented his character as much too fast to ever be engaged by the tier setter.

Strength.

Piercing

Ame calls Rogue's claws "virtually irrelevant" in his sign up post, but in the debate its a whole other question.

In his stat post he describes Rogues piercing as :

  • Has Wolverine's bone claws, which can cut through metal like butter. Note: Rogue is much stronger and her bones more durable than Wolverine's so her piercing is better

Wolverine cuts through metal like butter and Rogue's piercing is better

Blunt.

Rogue is at much stronger than Venom is durable, She very easily kills Venom with 1 wind up slam, or a couple regular punches, with speed 7.5 times the tier setter, this is a given.

Durability

Piercing.

Rouge can recover any non blunt force attacks very quickly surviving/fighting with exposed bone even with significant loss of mass. Things like bisection or having an arm cut off don't mean anything to her. She can even attach cut off arms. (this is a clone of Wolverine) To beat Rogue via piercing you'd have to shred her

Venom's bite does nothing to Rogue.

Blunt.

This is obviously good enough to contend with the tier setter. According to Ame himself, the TSer will not be able to take Rogue down quickly.

Soft Advantages.

  • "Rogue - Rogue has Captain Marvel energy absorption powers allowing her to absorb explosions, heat and vague energy blasts... This includes energy with a kinetic component"

    • Rogue can absorb energy with a kinetic component. Like punches, or Venom's main win conditions.

  • "Rogue via Wolverine's powers can sense where [her opponents] are as well as their mental state"

    • She will also pick up aspects of their powers such as Magellan using poison or that Samus is in a mech
    • Rogue knows where Venom is, and what he will do in a fight.

  • "Rogue and Monet also both are capable of constantly reacting to sustained attack: Rogue matches the RPM of a "couple thousand RPM" gatling gun. And she does it again"

    • Punching Rogue a lot does nothing. She matches thousands of RPM gatling guns.

  • Rogue can absorb energy from things even when only adjacent to them or when its inside of someone.

    • Rogue absorbs the energy from Venom or Eddy, and just insta gibs him.

Conclusion.

Rogue is 7.5 times faster than the tier setter. She by Ame's own admission is invulnerable to piercing, and much more durable than the tier setter. Rogue is stronger than the tier setter in both the fact that she's able to pierce him, and the fact that her blunt damage is too much for Venom to take. Rogue also has several soft advantages that make the tier setter fight exceedingly difficult for Venom. She cannot possibly be in tier.

1

u/KenfromDiscord May 21 '22

Monet.

From the in tier justification.

Monet has comparable durability, inferior base striking, but slightly better speed and potent piercing attacks.

Speed.

This is egregious. If you dont OOT based solely on this, I dont know what is OOT. Again, Monet controls when combat happens, and can immediately disengage from any disadvantageous state.

  • Monet also according to Ame strikes at 100MPH, the exact same speed as the TSer.

    • What Monet does "first" does not matter, which vector she attacks first is a waste of time to discuss. she's fighting someone incomparably slow to herself and as such has as many chances as she functionally needs.

  • Ame says that Monet has a 10ms reaction time.

    • Again neither combatant can actually do anything in 5ms, this is again a distinction without a difference.

Durability.

Piercing.

with Ame further stating that "Penance form's claws being able to Cuts through a polymer that Wolverine in his prime would struggle with, Wolverine can easily cut through a foot of super steel

Again Venom's bite will not do anything to Monet.

Blunt.

Literally just look at the feats, its self evident.

Venom cannot damage Monet. Even according to Ame, The TSer and Monet have similar durability, the TSer cannot one shot Monet. Monet is still 22 times faster.

Offense.

Ame already admits in his sign up post that Monet has potent piercing attacks compared to Venom.

Soft Advantages.

  • "Monet - M as Penance has hyper dense skin and primarily uses claws, as well as a healing factor."

    • Monet's healing factor gives her even more staying power vs Venom.

  • "Most critically though, Monet is a telepath, meaning she can read the thoughts of the opposing team, especially their active thoughts."

    • Monet can read Venom's mind and will know what he is going to do in a fight.

Conclusion.

Venom is moving in slow-mo compared to Monet. She moves 22 times faster than Venom and has relevant piercing. She preforms feats better than cutting through feet of super steel. Venom is not strong enough to one shot Monet, this is all according to Ame himself.

Orion.

From the Sign up Post.

Similar strength, better durability, plus ranged attacks that can hurt venom, but he’s slower. Likely Victory

Speed.

While Ame speed equalizes his character, he makes claims that counteract this.

  • "Even Orion can make up for his slower speed, with energy blasts that are fast enough to quickly travel 100s of m into the air, and his ability to spawn the energy blasts around him, as an AoE"

  • Outspeeds a jet and quickly flies to space

    • the start of 'space' is the Exosphere and thats 10,000km up. doing this in any relevant time frame is obviously OOT

  • "My team can further reduce this time with Orion's ability to teleport via boom tubes. With teleportation, the distance between my team and any of their opponents becomes well below 30 m, regardless of starting location. (At Mach, 30 m can be crossed in 0.09 s)"

    • "Via Boom Tubes and high travel speed my team can easily jump across the map in double digit microsecond timeframes"
      • Orion engages the TS in double digit microseconds.
      • the TSer reacts in 5 milliseconds, or about 100 times slower.

Durability.

Strength.

  • According to Ame, Orion has "similar strength".

Soft Advantages.

Conclusion.

Ame admits in his sign up post that Orion is stronger and more durable than the TSer. Ame throughout our debate lists countless reasons why Orion is faster than his speed equalization implies, especially in travel speed where he is again 7.5 times the speed of the tier setter, this plus his teleportation, and his AOE blasts basically confirm a hit on the TSer.

Orion's soft advantages seal the deal in terms of concrete OOTness.

Orion is much faster than the TSer in travel speed, Much stronger than the TSer, and much more durable, He cannot lose.

/u/TooAmasian, /u/Ame-no-nobuko

1

u/Ame-no-nobuko May 22 '22

OOT Response

Primer - Speed

A lot of Ken's OOT request hinges on the idea that my team is massively faster than Venom due to their flight speed, which is a weird argument. I'll go into the specifics for each character, but I'd like to break down why flight speed isn't nearly as relevant as Ken makes it out to be.

Flight speed inherently requires some degree of acceleration that makes it poorly equipped for CQC combat. All of my team takes at least tens of feet to accelerate to their max speed. They can't use this speed to dodge faster than their combat speed implies. Same applies for punching. Without notable lead up (which in turn telegraphs the attack) they can't reach their max speed to attack.

Its only uses, and the only ways that I argued it was being used, are to quickly cover the distance between foes and as an accessory with Rogue/Monet's superior reaction/combat speed to help them land the first hit.

Rogue

Speed

Ken seems to think that flying speed is some pervasive advantage throughout the debate, however its not.

  • Rogue slams into people as an opening move then proceeds to punch them. She's not Cannonball

  • Even if she did behave like Cannonball, that would suck for her. To do moves like this she needs 100s off feet of lead up. If she has to fly at venom -> try and hit him -> fly back, each attack attempt would take on the order of tenths of a second, which is shit for this tier. So no this isn't "better striking speed than Venom", its worse.

  • Venom can 100% dodge this initial blitz. Its heavily telegraphed. The only reason I argued Berserker couldn't was because his reaction and (combat) movement are so shit compared to Rogue. Venom has basically the same combat movement and (100 vs. 115 m/s) and reaction (5 ms vs. 8 ms), making speed between the two a wash. In relation to Venom Rogue basically is a dumb bullet, as she can't outreact him at the last minute. If Venom can dodge a bullet, he can dodge Rogue.

Ken seems to in general mix up flight speed with the more combat relevant combat movement and reaction. Rogue in those areas is basically 1:1 with Venom.

All her enhanced movement speed does, and all its argued to do in this past debate was allow her to reach her foes quickly, and helps her gain a free hit against foes who are 2.5-3x slower than her.

Offense

Piercing

Rogue's cutting is vaguely better than Wolverine's sure. Its still not relevant vs. Venom.

  • An attack that cuts through metal easily barely cuts Venom. We see that the damage is so minor its superficial. Wolverine's claws are equal to this, and Rogue using his claws just cuts through a bit more metal. Venom is a giant dude made of super material, it will be tough for Rogue to meaningfully cut through Venom

    • Venom can easily withstand being stabbed, and slashing will impact even less mass. He explicetly isn't impacted by piercing/slashing that doesn't remove significant mass/target his brain/heart. Rogue's claws are relatively small compared to Venom.

Basically Rogue can cut Venom, in the same way that I can stab someone with a butter knife I sharpened against a random rock for 10 minutes.

Striking

Uh this feat is better than Rogue's strong guy hit.

Rogue's striking isn't something Venom no sells, but its below what blatantly staggers him as well

Regarding her slam feat, as I noted in the speed section getting this to hit will be very, very difficult. Its why I never argued that Rogue is going to get a free flying slam him on Samus, only Berserker and Magellan, two characters massively slower than her.

Also the linked feat isn't Venom's best. This is. Here he withstands an attack that significantly deforms a tank. A tank shell won't deal this level of damage to another tank.

All of my team does have the ability to do damage in the same ballpark as Venom, that doesn't make them 1:1 equal.

Defense

Piercing

Yeah being bitten isn't a win con for Venom against anyone on my team. Never argued it was.

Blunt Force

This feat represents the upper threshold of Rogue's durability. She gets slammed through a foot of asphalt and whatevers underneath it, making a large crater and needs time to recover. To recover as quickly as she does she needs to siphon energy from an exposed wire.

  • This hit deals relevant damage to this scale. Sewers are easily half a dozen feet underground so Venom punched his clone through half a dozen feet of asphalt/ground/stone

  • This feat has a similar amount of displaced material as a hit that stagger's Venom (see the giant bulge it makes that is moving the cars)

Yeah this feat is comparable to stuff that Venom has, like this

Rogue's durability is good, but not incomparable to Venom's own. If Venom hits her with a blow that has enough force to send a 1 ton man through multiple walls and embed him in a 10x10x10 ft crater it will fuck her up.

Soft Advantages

  • Captain Marvel - She can absorb energy blasts with a kinetic component, not punches. She has been able to absorb actual punches. I also never argued she could

    • IDK what Ken means by "energy inside" Venom? Venom isn't powered by energy, unlike Berserker who is animated by magic. Carol nor Rogue copying her have ever like sucked the energy out of a normal person (even when it would have been very useful to do so), you have to have an identifiable power source/tether to one.

  • Senses - Rogue is from Marvel, she knows who Venom is. Also unlike poison, Venom will just smell like Venom

  • RPM - I have no clue what Ken is talking about here. Being able to punch at a few thousand RPM is fine for this tier. At 10 ms, Venom strikes (ideally I know the punches are staggered out) like 6000 times a minute

Summary

Rogue isn't faster than Venom and her flying charge isn't something she could probabilistically pull off against him. Rogue's piercing could cut Venom, but not significantly or effectively. Her striking isn't sufficient to quickly take Venom out and her durability isn't enough to no sell hits from him. Most of the soft advantages Ken brought up are ??? and just gross misunderstandings how the powers she has works.

If Venom's best hit lands on Rogue she's fucked up, ditto if Rogue's best hit lands, but Venom's best hit is far more likely to hit her than she is to land a hit charging from 100 ft away.

Rogue vs. Venom is basically like two otherwise equal combatants, but one (Venom) is more agile and has tendrils, and the other has a dull knife.

/u/TooAmasian

1

u/Ame-no-nobuko May 22 '22

OOT Request Cont.

Monet

Speed

Again flight speed =/= combat speed. Like Rogue, Monet doesn't act like Cannonball. She hits into people and then proceeds to try and punch them in the face

  • Like with Rogue even if she did behave like Cannonball its bad. Monet has slightly worse speed than Venom (10 ms reaction, 100 m/s combat). She can't time Venom like she can the blatantly slower Berserker. Slamming into Venom isn't probabilistic and the "rate of fire" is still on the order of tenths of a second, even at mach 3

  • I have never argued her (or Rogue's) speed in a way that would indicate its relevant for escaping a foe, or as a constant blitz tactic against comparably fast foes. Hell in our debate I was arguing my team wouldn't be leaving Berserker's close quarters if they could help it.

Monet's combat speed, and Venom's are similar, with if anything Venom being marginally faster.

  • While neither can get an attack off in 5 ms, the difference does add up over time. To react and throw a punch it takes Venom ~15 ms. It takes Monet ~20 ms. To react and dodge 3 ft it takes Venom 30 ms, it takes Monet 35 ms.

    • For every 3 hits Monet throws, Venom throws 4.

Defense

Piercing

Yup, never was a win con. Biting isn't even up there for actions Venom is prone to do

Blunt Force

  • Pyramid's vary in size and this is fictional one, thats pretty small (you can the entrance hole is a significant % of one of its sides). Its a decent feat, but its not fucking Venom up if it hits/not better than like this

  • Monet's feat here is worse than Venom's trench feat since she's much smaller, wasn't projectiled and she's not being trenched deep enough to bury most of her body. In terms of volume its less than the feat where Venom hits his clone into the sewer.

    • Venom's offense dwarfs his defense
    • Every feat in this sequence is worse than the damage Venom deals while exerted. Sure she's weakened in this, but nothing in this indicates that Venom's hits won't hurt her ###Offense Her skin isn't sharp enough to cut Venom, so that doesn't matter.

Her claws can cut Venom, but how she fights is inherently inefficient vs. Venom. Piercing doesn't impact Venom unless it removes a lot of mass/targets his brain/heart

Monet's style of fighting is just inherently less effective against Venom than say Berserker or Samus who would quickly die if slashed across the stomach

Also to note, Venom's flesh is much, much, much more durable than steel vs. piercing. Monet's claws are going to have more difficulty cutting him than most things

Soft Advantages

Summary

Monet's method of offense is fundamentally ineffective against Venom due to how she uses it and Venom's physiology. Her durability, while in the same ballpark as Venom's, is still worse (Venom's offense outpaces his defense). Speedwise its a wash/slightly in Venom's favor. None of her soft advantages really matter vs. Venom.

A match between the two is just "Venom hitting her and doing damage" and her trying to gore him and/or hitting him with blows he can withstand

Orion

Speed

  • Ranged - Attacks that "cover 100s of m quickly" isn't particularly good? Its better than his base striking, but this is 100% worse than Venom's 100 m/s striking speed.

  • Flight - See Rogue/Monet's section for why combat speed =/= flight/movement, but this is also a dumb interp. Space begins at the Karman line, a mere 100 km above sea level. Its vague how quickly this is, but it was initially brought up in the context of "all my team has ~mach movement speed so they cross the arena quickly"

    • Orion also has worse reaction/dodge speed than Venom so if anything its Berserker vs. Rogue/Monet in reverse where Venom can time Orion. There is a literal 0% chance Orion ever tags Venom with a charge

  • Boom Tube - Boom Tubes are shit for anything other than blitzing drastically slower foes. Boom Tubes make a huge boom, and are very visible before they even fully form. As shown you have to physically fly through them. Its not Nightcrawler style teleportation.

    • The only impact in a match vs. Venom this has, or any 1v1 really where ranged attacks aren't a thing, is it theres less time before they start punching each other
    • Boom tubes also can't be chained quickly, and Orion can't quickly close one, so its not like he can be teleporting around Venom super fast

Durability

Orion's only stat above Venom's is his durability.

Yeah Ken's right, I am going to argue Orion's mother box can't heal blunt force, because it can't.

Don't ask me why comics seem to universally ignore blunt force when healing factors are involved, but they do.

Okay this physical contact statement is such a reach, lol. His forcefield has one feat, stopping bullets. The idea that it could block something with as much force as Venom's punch is absurd.

Offense

Orion hits hard enough to shatter a fair amount of rock. His best striking (boulder feat) is telegraphed and with his lesser speed functionally will never hit Venom.

Soft Advantages

  • Warning - Mother Box can warn him of danger, but it doesn't tell him what or where, just the degree. It won't help him dodge a punch from Venom, he can see that Venom is punching him, so the Mother Box telling him that Venom is a danger isn't helpful. Its only use (and why I brought it up) was that it makes sneak attacks a lot harder since he'll know to be on alert.

  • Stats - Knowing stats doesn't matter. Orion as a character is going to just punch the shit out of his foes its what he does. Knowing Venom is made of goo and punches hard isn't changing how he'd fight him.

  • Pain - I never argued Orion can't feel pain. I argued he doesn't have a nervous system despite feeling pain

Summary

Orion vs. Venom is just a slog. Venom is faster, while Orion is more durable. As noted with Monet/Rogue, Venom is ~2.5x faster than a speequalized pick making it very, very difficult for him to be hit/whiff a hit. Orion is going to struggle to tag Venom and his hits aren't sufficient to quickly take down Venom. Due to the speed imbalance he wont be able to land his strongest hit (boulder throw) as it requires too much lead up, the only hit he could maybe hit with is one Venom can pretty clearly withstand.

So basically it becomes a match of who outlasts who, does Orion manage to land enough hits over x amount of time to take out Venom or does Venom manage to wear down Orion's dura in that timeframe. Venom can fight for 12 hours. Orion has no such endurance, so the longer the fight goes the larger Venom's advantage will be

/u/TooAmasian