r/whowouldwin • u/TooAmasian ​ • May 25 '22

Battle Arena of Assholes Round 3

Welcome to the second round of Arena of Assholes, aka Venom Tier

This is a debate focused bracketed tournament where users pick characters to argue against other users, with a certain character (Venom in this case) functioning as a measuring stick to prevent any one user from being too strong or unfair. You pick four characters, enter into rounds, and then argue you win against someone else with their picks.

In this tournament specifically, you choose 4 characters to run that can range from "unlikely to likely victory" against the tier setter Venom. The 4th pick works as a "rotating backup," meaning you choose only 3 of your characters to participate prior to each round.

The Brackets

Round 3 - 1v1s

The Tier Setter

Example of this kind of debate

This tier is designed for strong characters who can deliver and take hits that destroy copious amounts of concrete while being fast enough to bullet-time at close distances.

The tier setter is an idealized version of the sinister symbiote, Venom.

Venom

Full Tourney RT

Stat Interp
Strength A full force blow launches an opponent through several floors hard enough to embed into asphalt
Speed Bullet timing reactions, can run 100 mph and web-sling at 200 mph. Superhuman agility.
Durability Is fine being punched through a very thick concrete wall
Range Tentacles can reach around 20 feet when standing still and a decent distance greater than his melee range in combat
Misc Has tentacles that can extend his range, web-slinging for mobility, and anti-stealth measures by "seeing" out of his skin

Rules

Arena Rules- Round 2's arena will be Highrise from Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2/Mobile (Map images are from Mobile)

  • Spawn points and other relevant images

    • Spawn 1 is the top team in the comment and Spawn A is the bottom team

  • Video tour of the map

  • Assume the building is infinitely tall and there's a bottomless pit underneath

  • The buildings outside the map's bounds are simply an illusion and cannot be interacted with

  • Combatants cannot remain under the area of the rooftop (scaling the walls of the building if knocked off for example) for more than 12 seconds without being DQ'd

  • Do not be an asshat with arena rulings. Do not make arguments like "This is real earth, so abilities do not work" or "I become omnipotent due to magic present in the arena."

  • Assume materials within the map are made of and equivalent to their real life counterparts

  • The "ground" of the rooftop is made of solid concrete, for tourney purposes, the lower floors of the building don't exist and is just a solid mass of concrete

  • All "sunlight' present in the arena is fake sunlight that grants whatever normal powers but will not inhibit vampires or other characters with an inherent weakness via a WWWinium lightbulb. It is as warm and bright as normal sunlight.

Battle Rules

  • All combatants are aware of the basics of their allies' combat abilities but are in the blind on their opponents (unless they have canon knowledge of said person via sharing a fictional universe)

  • All combatants are fully aware that their enemy must be defeated for them to be able to survive, to be able to return to their home reality, and for the omnipotent organizers of this scenario to be satisfied. All combatants are aware of rules for the objective of the tournament

  • Incapacitation is defined by being unable to continue fighting. Being knocked out, being killed, being BFRd, or fully succumbing to exhaustion. If this condition is met for more than 12 full seconds, your character loses, and in a 3v3, they are removed from the arena in a flash of light after being incapacitated for 12 seconds. To reiterate, combatants are aware of this rule. Note that being restrained does not count as being unable to fight if it's something like a physical grapple or generally something that needs concentration to maintain, for example, you can't hold someone in a full nelson for 12 seconds to delete them from a 3v3.

  • Summons or 'fake' characters do not count for the purpose of a win condition - for instance, if a conjurer died in a 1v1 and left behind his 2 zombies, he would still automatically lose. This also applies to hive-minds or drone characters. This also means that characters who can reasonably be considered one entity can be run with ruling on a case by case basis, and will likely need to have a Prime Entity stipulated. This is, as well, determinable case by case without a specific end all be all example.

  • Every combatant starts each round being teleported into the arena, knowing full well whomever they face down needs to die or be incapacitated in order for they themselves to advance and win and will do so.

  • All combatants begin without any weapons drawn or abilities active, hands idle at their sides, and the moment they teleport in they can begin combat

  • All combatants are in-character for the tourney itself

  • Characters with holsters or similar will begin with their weapons holstered, characters with weapons that cannot feasibly be holstered will begin with the weapons pointed at the ground.

Debate Rules

  • This round will last roughly 5 days, from now Wednesday until Monday at noon EST; there is a 48 hour time limit both on starting (we do not care who starts, you and your opponent can figure that out, after Round 2 however we will mandate this) AND on responses, AND ADDITIONALLY each user MUST get in two responses or else be disqualified. If one user waits until the very last minute to force this rule to DQ their opponent without any forewarning to their opponents or the tournament supervisors, they will be removed from this tournament, no exceptions.

  • Intros, OOT requests, and conclusions are a max of 10k characters

  • Intros can be used to set up arguments such as by laying out that stats of your characters

  • Out of Tier Mechanic- A character can be veto'd mid tourney if the opposing debater calls for an Out of Tier review and the head judge agrees they are out of tier.

    • An OOT requests works by pinging the head judge (me) and explaining why the character has been argued as Out of Tier by the opponent
    • Each participant gets 3 OOT request for the whole tournament which is lost whenever their OOT fails to go through, this is done to avoid abusing the mechanic

  • You can not bring up new points in your conclusions, it is used to succinctly summarize and go over your prior arguments

  • Format for each round: the one to go first gets an Intro + 1st Response, their opponent replies in kind, then both get a 2nd response, then a 3rd response in a back-and-forth style, and a closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. Reponses are max of a 20k characters each spread along a max of 3 comments.

  • Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are determined by randomization. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa.

Victory Conditions

Winning a match will be determined by a council of 4 judges. Each specific round will be judged by 2 judges with a 3rd judge coming in if needed for a tiebreaker. Judgements are based upon who made the more convincing argument not which character "objectively" wins the matchup.

Links

Pre-Tournament

Tournament

Results

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u/Joshless ​ May 27 '22

Response 1

Kakugo is inconsistent

Apocalypse Zero is a trashy pseudohentai guro series and reading it gave me a headache.

Kakugo basically opens the series with a flashback stating he could easily catch bullets with one hand while fighting with the other and that he's confident he could catch 300 bullets per second if he was focused. Immediately after this he fights an old guy who duels by flicking saliva off a sex toy slow enough that random humans can react to it several times over and is unable to dodge his large, telegraphed mutant penis attack.

Just a bit later into the fight, Kakugo is flabbergasted by the ability to pull of 4 attacks in the timespan of a high jump and immediately concludes that old-penis-guy must be possessed/empowered by his long lost brother-rival. Old-man-penis guy then demonstrates enough strength to bust a building before striking Kakugo a "thousand" times. Except this time the collateral of a thousand blows is "Kakugo goes flying like 20 meters and lightly cracks the pavement".

I know I'm posting a lot of scans from this fight, but this is something that's continuous throughout the series. The next arc shows Kakugo being tagged by the tongues of some weird frog thing. The next next arc depicts a "heavy" combo attack as barely uplifting ground that is literally already shattered. Something that is basically immediately followed by a point-blank flying tackle doing the same thing and ending with the villain being "embedded" like, 2 inches into the ground.

Soon afterward Kakugo is given a movement speed number of just 28 km/h, which isn't even half Tiederman, and when he does finally reach the castle he then fails to dodge an exploding pustule of goo that he received advanced notice on. His main rival, who the series ends with him dueling, also uses visibly blunt piercing that penetrates maybe 3 inches of snow. This same rival uses bullets that fail to penetrate a spirit tablet and, preceding that scene, tags Kakugo with gas sprayed from a bouquet of flowers.

(This is less important IMO but I think it's worth noting that, textually, Kakugo's armor is just 90 kg of titanium that is also less than 7 mm thick. One of Kakugo's main fighting styles is also to use metabolized iron balls to turn his skin into metal that is explicitly just as "hard as steel")

Like, yeah, Mario can be inconsistent sometimes (at least for the purposes of this response)*. But the Mario series conceptually does not get any lower than "Mario breaks a brick", and this is often just because the game just doesn't feature bigger bricks to hit, not any inherent limitation on strength. "Mario can break bricks" is probably the most consistent piece of video game "lore" ever next to "Sonic moves at the speed of sound", and any of those are better than this.

* (I don't really want to belabor this point because I don't like responding to R1s directly, it's kind of unfair. I'll talk about this more in my R2, and I'll clarify my thoughts about Kakugo in there as well)

Mario is capable of sending opponents larger than himself spinning through meters of brick on a pretty consistent basis and is able to quickly shatter some ~6 tons of brick with a simple strike. Even larger bricks can be broken with his hammer and, as posted to death by now, even larger masses of stone can be ping-ponged.

Mario's win condition relies on Kakugo operating on any level other than "his maximum", Kakugo's win condition relies on him randomly immediately going for some esoteric option when almost all of his fights consist of physical blows and him standing still.

I'm just a little guy nooo cmooon it's my birthday are you gonna hurt me

Origin is extremely under-tier

Origin does not actually have a durability feat. I don't think this will be a major source of contention because it's just kind of... true. The best feats listed in his RT are him lightly cratering a pillar and taking hits from a guy who can score some walling. Basically every single feat where Origin takes a hit is him getting hit by a sub-tier strike and going "aaghh blahhh *launched across room* damn it's a good thing I blocked that at the last zeptosecond". He has good endurance, he's a robot, but he's going to die in one hit.

Sonic is able to:

All of these kill Origin in one hit, deflection or otherwise. And he will have to deflect, because Origin is not nearly as fast as Sonic is.

Origin has to break physics to dodge an attack moving at 400 km/h along the edge of a massive radius and needs a tool to throw a pole at 350 km/h.

Sonic explicitly travels almost as fast as Origin's best feats while dicking around and running backwards. He is able to travel at over 600 km/h while ferrying around a girl in a wheelchair. When racing the aforementioned 300 km/h car for real, Sonic is so fast that he is able to win the race before anyone sees him move, run back to his opponent, and then pretend to win a second time on a near-tie. Literally the average random "Sonic is traveling" scene in Sonic X features Sonic moving at 600~800 km/h. Origin does not move like this.

Sonic can easily weave between and perceive bullets in flight, and can dodge shots from a tank. He is also, obviously, generally extremely capable of navigating at Mach speeds. He is capable of dodging missiles moving at the speed of sound at the last moment while not looking at them.

Origin has no viable method of attacking Sonic, and Sonic just has to hit him back once. Sure, Origin can block and dodge hits from a supersonic opponent. But notably, that opponent lands tons of hits anyways. Origin does not have the option to "barely dodge" or "deflect" Sonic here. He has to dodge, fully and totally. He can't. Sonic is a completely out of context problem for him. He moves in ways that are impossible at speeds that are unattainable with a body that is indestructible.

(This is also a "I don't like responding to R1 points" thing, but this is clearly something that needs to be addressed and isn't that long. I am not running primarily game!Sonic, I am running Sonic X with other canons as a backup. Literally all of Sonic's antifeats in R1 are from the games. I made this distinction for exactly this reason.)

2

u/Joshless ​ May 27 '22 edited May 27 '22

Luo isn't a real character

I think Luo is just coasting by on being from an extremely long and bad webnovel with the added benefit of having video game stats for perceived objectivity. His actual feats do not add up with each other and are not good. They are also mistranslated.

This feat, for example, is listed as Luo reacting while traveling at 200 m/s. Here is the raw text for that feat. Roughly, this translates to:

A vague shadow was approaching at high speed. Just now, Luo Yuan's had crosed 100 meters in 2 seconds, it was like a super-car with a speed of over 180 mph. What was more terrifying, however, was his distance when he noticed it. It was only ten meters away. He would have only 0.3 seconds to judge the target and avoid the collision.

Notice:

  • This is 50 m/s, not 200.

  • Luo Yuan only having 0.3 seconds to dodge an incoming object is terrifying and difficult.

  • Luo randomly drops from 50 m/s to ~30. This isn't as important I just think this is weird.

We also have this feat, of Luo having a punch that "weighs" 20 tons, and can increase with Will. Again, here are the raws. This translates to:

Using these attributes, Luo Yuan's punch could reach a force of over 20 tons. With the assistance of his will, this attack power could increase by 20 or 30%. By comparison, an ordinary person who has not undergone any training could not reach even 7 or 8 tons.

Notice:

  • The translator changes "20 tons of force" to some bizarre wording implying Luo Yuan's... fist(?) weighs 20+ tons.

  • The translator completely leaves out the quantification of Luo's increase in strength for some unknown reason.

Lastly, there's this feat explaining the extent of a point of "Strength". According to the translation, Luo can move 10 tons with one hand, and is far stronger than heavy artillery. He could also beat Fang Peibin without "cheating". By contrast, this is the raw, which translates to:

At 17 points of strength, he was almost equivalent to 16 times the strength of ordinary people. In terms of pure strength, he was already close to 1.2 tons. And with 15 points of agility, the force of one of his punches was above 10 tons.

Tyson's strength of about half a ton could break through a 5mm steel plate. With Luo Yuan's current strength, he could even punch through an armored vehicle. Luo Yuan could now fight Fang Peibin again with no need for will. He could crush him with just the flesh of his body.

Again, notice:

  • The "10 ton" line has been completely mangled. The actual raw is just saying that his punches have 10 tons of force, not that he is simultaneously able to lift 1.2 tons but also move 10 tons with one hand.

  • The comparison to heavy artillery doesn't even exist. It's saying he can punch through an armored vehicle, which is significantly vaguer.

  • "He could beat Fang with no need for will, and just his strength" is, for whatever reason, condensed into just "he could win without cheating".

Luo's feats cannot be trusted. This is not an accurate translation, this is a hackjob that randomly makes his feats several times better for seemingly no reason while leaving out other pertinent details. I should not have to double check every scan my opponent posts because there's a 60% chance the translator just completely changed sentences around or made up numbers. This isn't minor quibbling about tense, we're talking about "Luo Yuan is either 200 m/s or a quarter of that idk" and "Luo Yuan is as strong as a missile impact or strong enough to punch a heavy car". These are meaningful distinctions.

Even beyond this, Luo's feats also just suck. "20 tons of force" is not in tier, and neither is lifting a few tons.

Pretend this Venom boulder is 2 tons (at ~6 feet long and ~3 feet thick it should be). At ~50 m/s, this is putting out 2,500,000 J. 20 tons of force put into a human form over even some ridiculous distance like 2 meters is ~15% of that figure. Again, though, this figure is completely absurd, or is otherwise generously assuming that the "force" figure refers to the force of the fist moving forwards rather than on impact. In reality, most punches have their force primarily delivered on a rapid, short deceleration period measured in milliseconds. A more conservative 10 cm estimate would drop this to only around ~20 kJ, only 0.8% of an in-tier strength feat.

Again, needless to say, this sucks. The standard baseline feat of "breaking a brick" is better than this, much less stuff like this. Being able to lift and throw characters like King Bob-Omb and Bowser is also obviously significantly greater lifting than "could carry a few tons". A ~3 meter wide King Bob-Omb that's only as dense as Luigi himself would be ~14 tons.

Luo's only solid win condition is maybe having good speed and maybe having good esoterics based on an inaccurate and untrustworthy translation. All the while, he also has significantly worse strength that is, again, conceptualized as being "10-20x stronger than the average human being". Luigi's win condition is to punch him once and this can be attained by literally any vector sourcing from basically any game.

/u/SellMeSomeBread Your turn

1

u/SellMeSomeBread May 27 '22

Response 2

lol

Luo vs Luigi

Josh burns like 10000 characters telling me the character who I did not run for his strength feats has bad strength feats

This response does not give me anything to rebut, because absolutely none of this, except for the values concerning speed, actually interacts tangibly with my win condition, if Luo's strength values got mangled in the translation, who gives a shit, the speed value gets messed up once and Josh immediately hides behind his character's shittiness to try and discredit the fact Luo is, indeed, quite faster than Luigi.

This feat is from chapter 291. Yes, the translator fucked up here and meant to say ~50 m/s. I find it weird Josh read through Epoch of Twilight, knowing that I am running a Luo from a much later point, and went 'wow you only cap out at 50 m/s!!!!' Luo adds points to his agility, he gets faster.

So, yes, Luo was 50 m/s at that point. Then over the course of the 200 chapters following this, is claimed he grew from 50 m/s, to 100 m/s, to 125 m/s, to 200 m/s, to 'transonic', to whatever. But, cool, you killed one or two feats that weren't relevant to the match, sue me.

I'm actually going to pause and return to this match, but:

Kakugo vs Mario

Again, I don't really even understand the argument Josh is making here. Essentially, it's "Kakugo is inconsistent, because he has inconsistent collateral (because Mario never suffers this!), or he gets tagged by something with no real speed while he is exhausted or is stated to walk at a bad speed across Tokyo'.

I don't even really know how to engage with half of this in remotely good faith. Why is it relevant that the main villain uses a gun to fuck with Kakugo's love interest, if he never actually uses a fight with Kakugo? Why is it relevant that Kakugo gets hit by an explosion? What even is the point of using this as an antifeat? The blade isn't even blunt, it's buried in the ground, what the fuck are you even talking about.

Half of this essentially smacks of 'waaah you don't have the right amount of collateral or your series has weird materials!' before turning around and posting shit like Mario kicking a Koopa shell hard enough to fail to damage dirt before it rebounds through a row of Very RealTM bricks or Mario breaking bricks that explode into several smaller copies of itself before flying off into the aether. I also love the obligatory real feat of Mario failing to damage stone with consecutive strikes and it bouncing around with cartoon physics.

If you want to be a hypocrite, that's fine, I don't really care if Mario is stronger than Kakugo, because this was hardly ever the argument I was making. Kakugo is faster than Mario, he possesses several ways of winning, he murders.

Speedn' n Killn'

I'm only going to deal with the speed 'antifeats' that actually are like, real attacks on speed, instead of 'Kakugo gets tagged by someone they fight'.

And, uh...huh, that's it.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the author went 'huh, I'm going to give my character multiple statements of moving Very Fast but because of some minor artistic inconsistencies or the fact he gets punched a few times, a Battleboarding Nerd 30 years later is going to reveal, a-ha! I never intended to make him that fast!' Literal horseshit.

I also like how Josh calls into character here about weapons usage here.

But now let's go back to

Mario and Luigi REALLY FUCKING SUCK

This is something that concerns both matches, because right now you are barely running characters while complaining my characters have slightly inconsistent collateral or speed statements (yeah bro, Hulk the street tier bro, Black Canary the woman who punches at subhuman speeds), I literally do not why I should engage with 'wow, Mario can obliterate massive tons of brick!' when I do not know if you have the feats from the live action series where the bros are literal normal humans, or, again, in Smash:

This is ignoring the fact that Mario materials barely behave like real materials, or that there are enemies who are incredibly durable, flat out indestructible actually, on the basis 'they are stone',, infact there are multiple enemies that are like this.

On top of this they are stipulated to have 50000000 abilities and items per 'they have one of every Smash item and composition gives them abilities across their canon' that they ostensibly do use in fights but have no real preference or characterization for selecting one, selecting one might actually just kill them faster depending on what it is, some of them might just be straight out of tier.

You are running them with RPG feats, Luigi in particular is "Dreamy Luigi" which, literally, LITERALLY what the fuck does that mean, Dreamy Luigi in-game just acts as a buff for Mario, he never actually fights in 'base', using the Giant Dreamy Luigi feats would make you absurdly out of tier, on top of this, the RPG games literally do not make any inconceivable sense, every new game Mario and Luigi's stats completely reset despite the fact they are sequels, to the point where it can take them multiple hits to kill enemies in a new game they could crush at the end of a previous one.

Do Paper Mario feats apply? Paper Mario, where items like scissors or staplers pose a gigantic threat in-game?, yes Paper Mario is a storybook in the Mario and Luigi games but I have no idea how to treat a 'composite Mario' stipulation on the face of it.

1

u/SellMeSomeBread May 27 '22

Durability

This is a big sticking point because I have actually no idea how durable Mario and Luigi actually are, literally everything in these games does damage by interacting with Mario and Luigi in any singular way, and, going by big, popular games:

  • Super Mario Bros, you have a max health of 3 'HP', with one 'health point' given for having a powerup.
  • Same in SMB2.
  • Same in SMB3.
  • Same in SMW.
  • Super Mario 64, you have 8 hit points, a whopping 5 more.
  • Super Mario Sunshine, also 8.
  • Super Mario Galaxy 1/2/Super Mario Odyssey, back to 3.
  • All the NSMB games? Super Mario 3D Land? 3D World? 3 HP.

So how does this work exactly, you've been using feats where Mario smashes into a 'hard thing' and explodes it, but everytime, curiously, everytime he interacts with an enemy he gets his shit fucked up in a tiny number of hits, and it's not like enemies in these games are particularly that strong, they cannot interact favorably with obstacles the way Mario can or do it off the world's nightmare physics. Luigi isn't playable in all of these, I don't really care, because everything from the games themselves, the mechanics and interactions you are using to give feats for your characters say 'well, Mario and Luigi die in like a few hits from anything they interact with'.

What else do you want to use for durability? The DiC Cartoons, where Mario and Luigi are fucked up by Toad bouncing off a trampoline onto their heads? Maybe getting thrown hard enough to not damage dirt? Falls with 'enough force to crater sand on a beach and is crawling away in extreme pain', that one?

My opponent is incredibly afraid. He refuses to acknowledge the fact he isn't running characters, and is trying to skirt by on things that apply to approximately 99% of characters in all of existence.

On top of this at no points were 'Luigi/Mario just gets stabbed and Smash feats are fucking fake' ever really acknowledged, at no point was 'Luigi is a shitter who can barely function in a fight without his elder brother', no care given to just the basic 'speed + piercing gg'. I didn't bring up everything Luo or Kakugo can do, because frankly, I don't need it.

I also just love that a good portion of my opponent's argument immediately went, 'look bro, Mario consistently breaks bricks bro, authors said it bro, you can't argue against this bro this is a baseline my uncle Jimtendo bro said it bro' when his characters have ridiculously awful shit like this, then turns around and goes 'umm bro. author at one point said he was walking at 28 km/h bro that contradicts when at the end of the manga in his final fight he said he was exerting himself and going 550 km/h bro. can't use that bro!' This really cannot be understated in just how fucking stupid this is.

Run real characters next time.

Conclusion

Kakugo, yes, he doesn't have the best relationship with proper collateral, I'll admit that. It also isn't why he wins, because he still does like 10 things that fuck up Mario and he has the speed to do it. Like, seriously, when your entire list of talking points becomes this character does a feat in one instance that isn't perfectly replicated at another point when they punch something, you know you're splitting hairs and have lost your already terrible argument. Kakugo is 'inconsistent', Mario is a nightmarish freakshow of bad physics, multiple contradicting canons, stats that barely make sense, game mechanics that hurt him very badly to argue, and completely nonexistent characterization while operating off bad speed.

Luo is just fast, I'm sorry, I can post the whole speed section of his RT and like all of his feats are still better than Tierderman even when he was a shitter, Luigi still dies.

Origin vs Sonic

Don't care about this match as much, I've not played that many Sonic games, never seen Sonic X, but again this is just a failure to engage with any reasoning why Origin wins and instead harping on 'Origin has bad striking and durability', yeah, that's...why...he's in, tier.

My opponent immediately begins busting out feats from Origin's 1.0 and 1.1 bodies, despite the fact I am running 2.0 Origin, who is implicitly far more powerful, and who in his penultimate fight manages to move at speeds near that of sound, what precisely were you hoping to accomplish here? I also like how the 400 km/h thing is worded here. This an antifeat to you bro? Origin dodging a 400 km/h attack from behind while on his knees and being implicitly being able to do this whenever while in a weaker body is bad. Damn..

Anyway, with the acknowledgement Josh is using 'real' timeframes, and has rather strangely high standards for speed feats, let's see.

damn dude i think sonic is inconsistent bro god seriously it's so crazy how people don't just make the character stated to have multiple Good Speed Feats just fast all the time like wtf he gets hit by things?

Also, Sonic just seems really fucking ass at mach speed. Why does he bounce around a city for like 10 seconds like Wile E. Coyote before finally coordinating an attack on his opponent?

Sonic isn't Li

I literally went "every good Sonic feat is him just travelling in a straight line, which does not imply fine control or the ability to fight well at those speeds", and Josh immediately turned around and posted a bunch of speed feats of Sonic travelling in straight lines or having massive distances to turn while 'fighting' by instead opting for spin dashes that take a mile of windup on everything he fights.

Compare to Li, a character who instantly achives supersonic speeds within the span of a meter, who implicitly has similar specs to BoS Origin who perceives at the rate of nanoseconds with the ability to coordinate plans in timeframes irrelevant to his movement, this is exactly why I brought this up this in R1, 'but a supersonic man still lands hits!' Li is not 'just' supersonic, he uses his speed 1000x times better than Sonic on top of having ~skill~, Sonic bashing his way through everything in existence while travelling in predictable straight lines is not a real way to land hits.

"origin needs to move his full body" shut the fuck up

Fake Stip!

I could not care less if Sonic X is the primary canon if you're also using the main games per Sonic being composited, Sonic X and the main games don't 'contradict', Sonic is still nebulously sonic speed fast blue hedgehog who smashes Dr. Robotnik's army, this is literally just a way of duplicitously trying to escape antifeats, if you didn't want me to make these arguments, you should have just run Sonic X.

Actually I don't really care to post more Sonic game antifeats have one literally who gives a shit because

who cares

Origin just sticks his sword out and Sonic runs into it and cuts him in half and kills him dude I'm done arguing this

Conclusion Conclusion

  • Josh spends 11k characters in his R1 ignoring the post he is making a response to while making arguments that have barely any tangible impact on the match, before mewling out a "inconsistent" while running the most nonexistent characters in all of existence.
  • Josh's characters are, across the board, slower, weaker, worse, filled with antifeats that actually make a huge impact on the match, do not fight in any real way, have stipulations that either make them fight worse or literally do not make sense, and are completely fucking awful.

I don't even remotely understand Josh's plan with this response other than just hoping going all out on offense and nitpicking to try and disguise how fucking terrible his characters, on top of how he failed Feat Interp 101 and reading for 99% of his arguments anyway while busting out completely wack fucking feats that don't matter or I pre-empted in my R1 anyways. My team easily wins, you could read my R1 alone and I would instantly win, because I'm running characters with feats and my opponent's last two rounds were against people who literally at no point ever just said 'this shit be fake'.

/u/Joshless

1

u/Joshless ​ May 29 '22

Sonic is extremely fast

Origin is not actually good at using speed in a manner that matters for this round.

As said before, Origin can't just block Sonic, he's way too strong for that. This isn't really addressed inasmuch as it's just acknowledged in a meme-y and dismissive manner. I know that Origin having bad durability is why he's in-tier, that's why I'm arguing it. If if it's a big enough deal that Venom can pull off a win against Origin with that vector then it would follow that the faster-than-Venom Sonic could do the same.

Furthermore, this isn't an unlikely condition. Origin gets tagged all the time.

The key takeaway here is that you do not have to be as fast as Origin to engage with him. Origin is repeatedly forced into melee combat with opponents slower and dumber than him all the time, and he is completely capable of being caught off guard by unexpected events. In the most analogous fight to this matchup, Origin does up against opponent who is:

  1. Only capable of matching Sonic's speed in strikes and dodges.

  2. Limited by stamina.

  3. Limited by real-world physics.

  4. Far dumber than Origin.

  5. Of much lower movement and agility than Sonic.

And he gets hit. Origin only dodges a hit from the Martial Arts Master twice, by my counting. As soon as the battle moves into fisticuffs, Origin spends almost all of his time attempting to block or parry while having the advantage of a predictable, mechanical system his opponent uses to plan ahead.

This is also the most favorable scene to look towards for Origin. If you look back towards the Gon fights, or even just raw stats, there isn't any competition.

Again, Origin's best speed feat is dodging a 400 km/h swing. This is nothing compared to what Sonic does. Sonic is able to:

As far as I can tell, there only seems to be two main arguments against this drastic speed advantage existing. Those being that "Sonic travels in straight lines" and "Sonic does not use his speed"/antifeat posting. I'm going to address these in the order I listed them.

To start, almost none of the feats I listed in my original post feature Sonic traveling solely in straight lines. My opponent lists this as an example of Sonic taking "massive distances to turn", but I'm not really sure what he's demonstrating here. Sonic is just... following the road? The only explanation I can come up with here is that Clyde thinks "the entire road" is "the turning radius" and not the sharp angles he's clearly turning at, for whatever reason. Basically, this.

I also think this comes from a misunderstanding of what "turns" implies. That being a lack of acceleration or reactions. Sonic is obviously able to change directions, I don't think this is in question, what Clyde is actually attacking is his ability to stop and start motion. However, as shown above, Sonic is clearly able to gain ludicrous speeds in a very short amount of distance. In the "road traveling" scan, you can clearly see he doesn't drop speed at all. He is able to rapidly dash between locations while maintaining forward velocity at Mach speed and is able to make obscenely sharp turns between buildings while going at a similar pace.

I don't really know what else to show that wouldn't demonstrate what "can dodge tank rounds" doesn't. Sonic doesn't actually have a "linear motion" limit, this is just something made up after skimming some scans where Sonic runs in a straight line (except also he doesn't) because his goal is to move from point A to B. I'm sure if Sonic spent these scans running in a bunch of unnecessary squiggly lines my opponent would flip this around and say that he's just wasteful and flashy instead, mostly because they do exactly that. This isn't a good faith argument, this is a catch-22 based on the bizarre initial assumption that a guy running efficiently means that he can't turn.

tl;dr Sonic moves at the speed of sound, can attack at that speed, can go through obstacles at that speed, and does not consider Origin-relevant timeframes half a challenge

Argument number 2 is basically antifeat posting. I'm going to go through a few of these pretty quickly because a lot of them are like, bizarre or not real or irrelevant.

  1. Sonic literally isn't looking at Knuckles in this nor does he take damage from it

  2. Sonic literally can't see this opponent. It's invisible and he isn't looking at it. He says this directly before this scan happens.

  3. Sonic is jumping here and is incapable of flying. Perfect Chaos also strikes fast on a consistent basis and is magically empowered by all 7 Chaos Emeralds, only 6 of which are enough to make a giant mech FTE to Sonic.

  4. This scene takes place inside a bedroom Sonic isn't even in and had no reason to travel to. He just happens to arrive from a vague distance at just the right moment. This is basically "Flash failed to save Batman's parents".

  5. Again, Sonic is jumping here. He can't dodge because he can't fly. This robot is also empowered by 2 Chaos Emeralds, and is Sonic's physical superior.

  6. I don't know how "kicks a launched grenade back in slow motion" is an antifeat.

  7. I don't know how "Sonic messes around with someone he's known for years while easily avoiding them" is an antifeat.

  8. This is literally a feat.

I hate arguing this, but it's also important to remember that Sonic X isn't always in realtime. I calculated this on that assumption because you can see cars traveling in the scene. But like... this is obviously in slow motion. This is as well. This too. They even exchange dialogue in slow motion.

I'm not arguing that Sonic X is literally always in [convenient timeframe for my position] but I think it's kind of disingenuous to post like, "Sonic fights Shadow and is just as fast, antifeat". You could flip this around for Origin too, but I'm not actually arguing Origin is slow based on those scans, I'm arguing equals or betters in speed can tag him. I think the same is true for Sonic, I just think he's faster than Origin is.

Furthermore, almost all of these scans are from before the Metarex saga, or are otherwise from early in the series. Sonic gets much stronger as the series goes on. Metarex are introduced as being tough enough to no-sell hits from Knuckles, with stronger ones even contending with Super Sonic. Later on, however, he's able to easily avoid their generals and destroy their spaceships. His equal, Shadow, also fights off hordes of their guards and destroys their armadas.

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u/Joshless ​ May 29 '22 edited May 29 '22

As a final point, I would also like to mention that even if all the above were untrue, Sonic would still hold a significant advantage over Origin. Namely, he still moves much faster than he does. The parties start 24 m apart, and Origin cannot move into range faster than Sonic can. When and if Sonic chooses to engage Origin, it will be on his terms. There is nothing Origin can do to prevent Sonic from running into a more advantageous position, retreating, teasing out his abilities, attacking from a weak point, or anything like that.

Origin's only win-con is basically just that Sonic happens to run into his sword. If Sonic grabs him he dies. If he kicks him he dies. If he punches him he dies. All of these conditions are furthered by Sonic's speed in all senses of the word.

tl;dr mughhghug fasttt

Luo Yuan does not have a proven win condition

I do not know how fast Luo is, how good his piercing is, or anything about him.

As I mentioned in my R1, Epoch of Twilight is not very well translated. Several passages are exaggerated, skipped out, or made up entirely. Clyde somewhat addresses this, but seems to have misinterpreted this point as me saying "these specific passages are messed up, so this feat in particular is worse". This is not my point. I know that the series doesn't end at the points I listed, what I'm saying is that none of the scans are accurately represented.

Basically, it should not be my responsibility to make sure these feats exist. There is a demonstrated pattern of error in their translation, and the burden of proof should not be on me to individually check everything in my opponent's scan dump.

Even taking the scans at face value, I'm still not sure how fast Luo is supposed to be. This is labeled as Luo having a reaction time of 0.005 seconds, but all they say in this scan is that that's how long it takes him to teleport. The RT relabels it as his "neural response time", but what does that mean? The conduction time of nerves in humans is 6~7 ms, the actual activation time of the nerve itself likely being far faster.

Luo's main listed piercing feat also gives him a stated attack time of 0.16 seconds, and one of his main scans for being "200 m/s" also says he's "completely unable to react" at that speed and that he "collides haphazardly" with objects while doing so.

The only thing I know about Luo is that he may or may not be able to pierce steel in a timeframe that may or may not be some vague amount faster than 0.16 seconds or maybe also 0.3 seconds and he's probably able to travel at a couple hundred m/s but is completely unable to react at that speed and also he has no relevant strength or durability feats.

My opponent calls me out for talking about how Luo has far worse physicals than Luigi, but I'm not sure what else I'm supposed to discuss. I bring up his worse physicals for the same reason I bring up Origin's worse physicals: they are the means by which Luigi and Sonic win. Dismissing it as irrelevant or foregone doesn't detract from the point, it is the point.

Luigi reacts 8x faster than Luo's best demonstrated attacking timeframe, and, even granting 200 m/s movement, he is far faster than necessary to dodge a bumrush from Luo.

Luo has no relevant durability or strength feats. Luigi is capable of shattering several tons of brick and boulder-like creatures, he can greatly out-lift Luo and hurl him through the air, and even if he does get hit, per stips, both Bros. are equipped with one full-heal item.

I acknowledge antifeats exist, but I do not think they matter for this debate. As I said in my R1, even extremely basic feats like "breaking bricks" is still greater than what Luo can handle. It doesn't matter if Luigi is a 200 tonner or a 5 tonner, he's still far stronger than someone whose strength is defined as a two-digit multiple of ordinary people. Luigi just has to hit Luo once with his several-times-greater speed in order to win. The actual vector doesn't really matter.

Speaking of antifeats, though.

The Mario Bros. presented are not a version of the Bros. that exists

My opponent has basically taken the reigns of "composite" to invent problems that are not actually real.

A great deal is made about "who knows what options they'll pick" when the options they have is defined from the outset as "they can use items from this one party-fighting game that mostly consists of various flavors of melee weapon and gun".

I am pretty sure Mario and Luigi solve almost all of their problems through some combination of jumping on their opponent, throwing fireballs at them, and hitting the person very fast with their hammer.

The Mario Bros. have starred in 20+ main series games, 5 original Mario & Luigi titles, 91 cartoon episodes, and way more than that. Mario has won the vast majority of his fights across this franchise, and he doesn't do it by rolling dice in his head to decide on a random and arbitrary attack vector.

I'm not saying that they're combat geniuses or anything. 99% of Mario boss fights are like, "you can't jump on this guy's head, so instead try throwing a hard object on it". Or "trick this guy into setting his seesaw up in a manner that makes him fall in it instead of you". Or "wait for this big golem thing to open its weak eye point, then punch it". These are all pretty simple, directly physical strategies. But that's the point: Mario and Luigi are just going to do what they're good at. They're going to punch you and hit you with a hammer and use elemental moves that they are well known for. There is no reason for Mario or Luigi to randomly decide that Luo or Kakugo or whomever is allergic to peanuts so maybe they should try feeding them that. They hit people really hard and smash rocks on their heads.

And yes, the Bros. do get hurt by Goombas and all that stuff, and Goombas aren't particularly strong. I do think it's kind of weird that the main thing they could find to prove this was someone hacking the game to produce an unintended and modded situation, but it's not really worth arguing "are Goombas Venom-tier".

My main issue with this argument is just that it ignores general context.

Yes, Mario will be hurt by a Goomba. But if you look at every feat in isolation you would also probably conclude that Mario could never defeat Donkey Kong or giant Wario or Bowser. But he does do all these things. He's even beaten amped and giant Bowsers before. In no situation in Mario history have the Bros. encountered someone "strong enough to shatter boulders" and just died because they're too strong.

Conversely, I also think this is true of Kakugo. Both Mario and Kakugo are inconsistent, but are the kind of character where that does not actually matter for their performance. I think Kakugo's mechanics work a bit differently from Mario's, but there is overlap. To be clear, I do not actually think that Kakugo is "lightly cracked pavement tier". I think the opposite, actually. But on the same token, I think it's only fair if it's acknowledged that Mario also has variance according to the threat and scale of his opponent. I think the precise method of this doesn't matter inasmuch as just the idea that it exists. That, basically, Iron Man may be staggered by Spider-Man and Spider-Man by Captain America, but that doesn't mean Iron Man would get pasted the moment he fought Namor.

tl;dr Mario has contextual limits because he is a cartoon character a la "Roadrunner will outrun a bullet if a bullet is shot" and for the purposes of the tier this is functionally modeled as "Venom is a Bowser fight"

Random minor point

I'm nearing the character limit but I just want to bring up a minor thing. Clyde mentions often that I don't address his R1 claims in my R1. This is true, but like, I explain that I did this because it seems unfair to do that. Idk. Just thought it was weird.

Also no Paper Mario doesn't apply because he's a different character.

1

u/Joshless ​ May 29 '22

OOT Request: Kakugo

/u/TooAmasian

/u/SellMeSomeBread

General

I do not think Venom has any viable wincon against Kakugo. Kakugo is as fast or faster than the TSer, significantly stronger, far more durable, with greater endurance, and with several esoteric vectors that Venom has no or insufficient resistance to. Kakugo is also stipulated to believe his opponent is a monster, and will fight lethally as a result of this.

Strength

Kakugo has this one feat stipulated out, but this is not Kakugo's best feat by a longshot. Kakguo throwing an iron ball produces a giant gaping hole in a castle that's larger than skyscrapers. He directly scales to a rival who, even before the series began, could split mountains in half and shatter tower ceilings with the shockwave from their kick. While in base, Kakugo can shatter meter thick floors and crack the walls tens of meters away.

This feat is linked several times as an example of what Kakugo can do with a strike. This involves a wall that is several meters thick, seemingly tens of meters tall and wide, and is being broken out of armor. This is comparable to what the tier RT lists as Venom's maximum and is significantly better than Venom's standard durability feats.

Kakugo is comparable to Venom's physical strength as argued, and has feats that are magnitudes better in reserve. I do not think it is true-to-spirit to run a mountain buster on the condition that you might promise to not pull out "he punches like a nuclear bomb".

Speed

As stated in the signups alone, Kakugo is faster than Venom is. Since then, he has been argued significantly higher.

According to my opponent:

Venom has no real way of dealing with this at all. Kakugo is, as presented at worst, a good clip faster than Venom to somewhere in the range of several times faster than him. Venom's striking speed also drops with each successive strike. This same limitation does not apply to Kakugo, who can respond to opponents who deliver 9 strikes with an average rate faster than Venom's quickest.

Durability/Endurance

(For scale on some of the following feats, understand that when I say "coliseum" I am referring to a structure large enough to contain a 200 meter distance)

Heavily injuring Kakugo is not enough. He is able to fight through his intestines being removed and considers a wound like that superficial. He is also able to smile through an amputated limb.

Kakugo is tough enough to stay standing after having two hands shoved through his chest with enough force to shatter the top of the coliseum with its shockwave. Almost right after this, he endures a suplex hard enough to shatter the coliseum and the mountain underneath it, a hit heavy enough to fracture his skull. He then gets up from this hit and still has enough strength to do super martial arts stuff.

Kakugo without his armor takes hits comparable to Venom's maximum. Venom could not hurt Kakugo with his strikes much, if at all, and Kakugo has far more endurance than Venom does.

Esoterics

All of Kakugo's esoterics immediately kill Venom, can be used several times, and will be used in-character per stips.

There is no way for Venom to get around these. Venom's only option is to dodge, but if Kakugo uses any of his AoE attacks, enhances his melee with heat, responds to a grapple with his jets or explosive ejection, or even just fires a Sublimation at the ground to bust up the flooring... there is nothing Venom can do about this.

The only real argument I can see against any of these is that Venom can grapple Kakugo, but there's already two listed reasons why that wouldn't work, and a third is just that Kakugo has good lifting. In base, he's still strong enough to hold frame while being dragged through concrete.

There could be a very generous interpretation of what "EoS stips" means, and it could be inferred that Kakugo isn't using any feats after his stipulated outlier.

  • This would remove some of his durability feats, but would still leave Kakugo as faster, stronger, and immediately capable and willing to kill Venom with any of his esoterics.

Even if Kakugo was argued as a pure brick who's similar to but weaker than Venom (which he's not, and he isn't), any physical confrontation is still biased in his favor. Kakugo is not only faster than Venom, he's been trained since childhood in Niko-style "why are you hitting yourself" martial arts.

Kakugo one-shots Venom with the majority of his options, and would likely end a punching match in less than a couple seconds. Venom has no viable means of grappling Kakugo, and is not strong enough to do any real damage without somehow chaining multiple maximum damage punches for minutes in a row. Even the sign ups acknowledge that Kakugo is far too durable to be put down in short order, and implies he has much greater skill (or "fighting prowess").