r/whowouldwin • u/TooAmasian • May 25 '22
Battle Arena of Assholes Round 3
Welcome to the second round of Arena of Assholes, aka Venom Tier
This is a debate focused bracketed tournament where users pick characters to argue against other users, with a certain character (Venom in this case) functioning as a measuring stick to prevent any one user from being too strong or unfair. You pick four characters, enter into rounds, and then argue you win against someone else with their picks.
In this tournament specifically, you choose 4 characters to run that can range from "unlikely to likely victory" against the tier setter Venom. The 4th pick works as a "rotating backup," meaning you choose only 3 of your characters to participate prior to each round.
The Brackets
Round 3 - 1v1s
The Tier Setter
Example of this kind of debate
This tier is designed for strong characters who can deliver and take hits that destroy copious amounts of concrete while being fast enough to bullet-time at close distances.
The tier setter is an idealized version of the sinister symbiote, Venom.
Venom
Full Tourney RT
| Stat | Interp |
|---|---|
| Strength | A full force blow launches an opponent through several floors hard enough to embed into asphalt |
| Speed | Bullet timing reactions, can run 100 mph and web-sling at 200 mph. Superhuman agility. |
| Durability | Is fine being punched through a very thick concrete wall |
| Range | Tentacles can reach around 20 feet when standing still and a decent distance greater than his melee range in combat |
| Misc | Has tentacles that can extend his range, web-slinging for mobility, and anti-stealth measures by "seeing" out of his skin |
Rules
Arena Rules- Round 2's arena will be Highrise from Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2/Mobile (Map images are from Mobile)
Spawn points and other relevant images
- Spawn 1 is the top team in the comment and Spawn A is the bottom team
Assume the building is infinitely tall and there's a bottomless pit underneath
The buildings outside the map's bounds are simply an illusion and cannot be interacted with
Combatants cannot remain under the area of the rooftop (scaling the walls of the building if knocked off for example) for more than 12 seconds without being DQ'd
Do not be an asshat with arena rulings. Do not make arguments like "This is real earth, so abilities do not work" or "I become omnipotent due to magic present in the arena."
Assume materials within the map are made of and equivalent to their real life counterparts
The "ground" of the rooftop is made of solid concrete, for tourney purposes, the lower floors of the building don't exist and is just a solid mass of concrete
All "sunlight' present in the arena is fake sunlight that grants whatever normal powers but will not inhibit vampires or other characters with an inherent weakness via a WWWinium lightbulb. It is as warm and bright as normal sunlight.
Battle Rules
All combatants are aware of the basics of their allies' combat abilities but are in the blind on their opponents (unless they have canon knowledge of said person via sharing a fictional universe)
All combatants are fully aware that their enemy must be defeated for them to be able to survive, to be able to return to their home reality, and for the omnipotent organizers of this scenario to be satisfied. All combatants are aware of rules for the objective of the tournament
Incapacitation is defined by being unable to continue fighting. Being knocked out, being killed, being BFRd, or fully succumbing to exhaustion. If this condition is met for more than 12 full seconds, your character loses, and in a 3v3, they are removed from the arena in a flash of light after being incapacitated for 12 seconds. To reiterate, combatants are aware of this rule. Note that being restrained does not count as being unable to fight if it's something like a physical grapple or generally something that needs concentration to maintain, for example, you can't hold someone in a full nelson for 12 seconds to delete them from a 3v3.
Summons or 'fake' characters do not count for the purpose of a win condition - for instance, if a conjurer died in a 1v1 and left behind his 2 zombies, he would still automatically lose. This also applies to hive-minds or drone characters. This also means that characters who can reasonably be considered one entity can be run with ruling on a case by case basis, and will likely need to have a Prime Entity stipulated. This is, as well, determinable case by case without a specific end all be all example.
Every combatant starts each round being teleported into the arena, knowing full well whomever they face down needs to die or be incapacitated in order for they themselves to advance and win and will do so.
All combatants begin without any weapons drawn or abilities active, hands idle at their sides, and the moment they teleport in they can begin combat
All combatants are in-character for the tourney itself
Characters with holsters or similar will begin with their weapons holstered, characters with weapons that cannot feasibly be holstered will begin with the weapons pointed at the ground.
Debate Rules
This round will last roughly 5 days, from now Wednesday until Monday at noon EST; there is a 48 hour time limit both on starting (we do not care who starts, you and your opponent can figure that out, after Round 2 however we will mandate this) AND on responses, AND ADDITIONALLY each user MUST get in two responses or else be disqualified. If one user waits until the very last minute to force this rule to DQ their opponent without any forewarning to their opponents or the tournament supervisors, they will be removed from this tournament, no exceptions.
Intros, OOT requests, and conclusions are a max of 10k characters
Intros can be used to set up arguments such as by laying out that stats of your characters
Out of Tier Mechanic- A character can be veto'd mid tourney if the opposing debater calls for an Out of Tier review and the head judge agrees they are out of tier.
- An OOT requests works by pinging the head judge (me) and explaining why the character has been argued as Out of Tier by the opponent
- Each participant gets 3 OOT request for the whole tournament which is lost whenever their OOT fails to go through, this is done to avoid abusing the mechanic
You can not bring up new points in your conclusions, it is used to succinctly summarize and go over your prior arguments
Format for each round: the one to go first gets an Intro + 1st Response, their opponent replies in kind, then both get a 2nd response, then a 3rd response in a back-and-forth style, and a closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. Reponses are max of a 20k characters each spread along a max of 3 comments.
Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are determined by randomization. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa.
Victory Conditions
Winning a match will be determined by a council of 4 judges. Each specific round will be judged by 2 judges with a 3rd judge coming in if needed for a tiebreaker. Judgements are based upon who made the more convincing argument not which character "objectively" wins the matchup.
Links
Pre-Tournament
Tournament
Results
1
u/corvette1710 May 30 '22
Wonder Woman vs Rogue
Speed
Guns
They aren't MP5s, they're shaped differently and the magazine width indicates a bullet larger/faster than the MP5 uses, and they're much larger overall. Best guess is a fictional model of assault rifle, rifles will often have a muzzle velocity above Mach 2, 800m/s is common.
We can again see Diana move her hands about 1/4 the distance of a rifle bullet in the same time.
Technique
Rogue's rain dance in this feat isn't for show, the lady watching is even praising Rogue's skill here. Rogue needs windup to accomplish this level of hit. How can you say her method of throwing the punch here doesn't affect it when she is purposefully using her entire body to maximize her force with a two-handed slam? This is an absolute upper range in terms of standing strike force, it isn't every hit, and it isn't that strong.
These other feats suck (2, 3) or aren't (provably) a standing punch (1, 2) like Rogue will have to engage with 99% of the time in this fight. Diana has accessible, good striking without entering a strong stance.
Pretending Rogue's upper tiers of striking are anywhere near as accessible as Diana's in this match is plain wrong.
Diana also has aerial CQC skill, where she can use the same tricks with more maneuverability.
Cheetah
In all of their fights Cheetah is throwing a greater number of attacks than Diana, just with a worse hit rate because she is less skilled. When Cheetah is amped she barely bothers dodging because she's so much faster than Diana.
Weapons
Lasso
Darkseid is strong enough to restrain Superman, who can lift Air Force One one-handed. This makes him a ~400 tonner. His escape of the Lasso isn't something Rogue can replicate through strength.
Diana can also put Rogue in unfavorable positions to escape the Lasso, such as swinging her into the environment or binding her hands, rendering her claws useless. There are also chokes Diana can do while maintaining a power position over Rogue that KO in about seven seconds and allow Diana to hit Rogue for free with her sword. Diana has bound the hands of faster enemies before, if Rogue is only 15% faster she is able to do it to her, too.
If there were any indication at any point that the Lasso could ever be damaged, Ame might have a point, but it is never implied that the Lasso is ever in any danger of damage from any attacker no matter their power. It's Diana's most powerful weapon by far, and none of her more mundane weapons can be cut by Rogue either.
Sword/Shield
Wolverine's bone claws don't have a feat for cutting through a sword that shears through cars and multiple feet of stone. Diana's sword is stronger than Rogue can cut, and her shield is probably made from the same material.
A steel shield will block a steel sword 100% of the time just based on relative mass. Her shield has greater durability than her sword and can block Rogue's claws.
One swordfight consisting of one exchange with a featless alien isn't the same as fighting a warrior of comparable strength who has been dueling for millennia and choosing to lose. A swordfight isn't an approximation of two-handed knifefighting.
In comparison to a sword, Rogue's ability to manipulate her claws is severely hindered.
Bracers
They're the most durable blocking tool Diana has. Diana's bracer holds against her own sword when Medusa swings a giant sword into it with greater force than Rogue, and Diana blocks it. Medusa is physically stronger than Diana, and the giant sword, sharp or no, multiplies this disparity as a result of greater angular velocity. Holding her own sword against her bracer and breaking neither indicates that the bracers can hold up to more piercing than Rogue uses.
They can block Rogue's claws.
Durability
Blunt
Rogue
This isn't something you can prove. Rogue may be durable compared to Diana overall but she isn't taking a hit from someone stronger than her and flying through concrete to get around them.
Even if this is real, this doesn't indicate an ability to take a continuous beating from a more skilled opponent with a range advantage and an incap tool whom you have a hard time damaging through her defenses.
Diana
All striking feats shown for Rogue are bad or require more windup than can hit Diana (even if she were slower than Rogue by the amount stated). The best standing punch posited for Rogue is patently inferior to what Diana can instantly walk off.
Rogue isn't strong and can't leverage any huge amount of leadup against Diana to summon more relevant amounts of force.
Piercing
Only nicked. This is a nick because that's how much he hit her, the sword wasn't even in his hand the panel before and she was moving away. No piercing resistance occurs in this scene, and the sword doesn't cut through the concrete support, it breaks it, see the debris flying outside the "cut".
In the case that Diana can't cut Rogue it isn't addressed that Diana still has a range advantage and a force multiplier stick in her hand.
Lifting
If Rogue can lift so much more than 50 tons, show her doing that. If all you have is her working out, it's useless. Flying with and throwing 40 tons is better than pressing 50 for a few minutes, and Diana utilizes her lifting way better than Rogue does in multiple ways.
Skill
In addition to the disparity in weapon fighting skill that slants massively in Diana's favor, Diana also has her beat outright in CQC, something Ame barely rebutted with a scan of Rogue sneaking up on someone and then pressing that advantage. Diana can transition blocks to throws and unarmed blocks to Lasso bindings against relevant, aware foes.
Rogue has no good options against this. She must eat hits to escape disadvantage; this dynamic favors Diana, who can transition to weapons at any time in CQC to build her advantage further.
Conclusion
Diana is faster, more skilled, and more relevantly strong. Her weapons are all useful against Rogue and aren't destructible to Rogue. Rogue may be more durable generally, but that can't make up for the huge disparities in skill that build Diana's advantages throughout the match. Rogue is a worse fighter and in a match where the two are comparable even at an unfavorable interpretation of speed Diana wins every time through skill and weaponry.