r/whowouldwin • u/FreestyleKneepad ​ • Aug 18 '22

Event Character Scramble 16 Tribunal

Tribunal is now over!

Click here to pick your Veto or Opt-Out of NSFW subs

Thanks to everyone involved for your hard work. :)

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Refer to the following links for easy access to all the resources you need to debate cases:

Season 16 Tiersetter RT’s for Predator and Galahad

Current list of unclaimed backups

Signup FAQ

Link to the Pre-Scrambled Roster for this season

Featured Submissions

In an attempt to help aid the review process, we will be highlighting a section of the submissions each day to focus the lens on a group of submissions. Understand that these submissions aren’t being picked due to any reasoning or bias beyond their position on the list alphabetically, our goal is to help you focus on specific parts of the submission list each day in the hopes that characters that would normally pass under the radar are given proper scrutiny.

Here are the featured submissions for today.

The link will be changed each day until we’ve covered the entire submission roster or until Tribunal has ended.

Here’s how this works.

For the next One and a Half Weeks, all characters are under review. If you think a character is not in tier, whether they be too weak, too strong, too nebulous, or somewhere in between, here is where you can air your grievances. We'll be going through all of the submissions during this time, all I ask is that you follow along and call what you see.

Tribunal will end in about 2 weeks, on Monday, August 29th, or when all cases are closed if that happens first.

To clarify, this deadline is subject to change if we decide that there are unresolved issues that warrant some more time. Don’t worry, we’re not going to spend the entire time arguing about Pyramid Head. If we get done early and there’s only a couple cases left a few days before Saturday, odds are good we’ll wrap those cases up and end Tribunal early. Every remaining case will be notified if that’s happening.

If you have a problem with a character:

  • Create a comment with the name of the character in question, a link to that character sheet, and the username (with /u/ to notify them - /u/GuyOfEvil for instance) of the submitter. Then list what questions/problems you have with the character.

  • Please be respectful when calling out characters, and remember that you are probably pointing out problems with someone's favorite character/series.

  • Keep in mind that Tribunal is for judging whether a character is too strong/weak for the tier. Whether or not you personally like the character or think they’re good/well-written has no bearing on whether or not they’re in tier.

  • Please give a detailed complaint about each character a separate reply to make sure that conversations are organized. Quick thoughts on multiple characters in one post are fine as well as long as you keep each case clearly separated.

  • Starting with the initial complaint post, each person involved gets five full posts to argue their point back and forth. If a decision is not reached by that point, judges must be called in to make a decision. If that happens, the person issuing the complaint and the person whose submission is being complained about both get one closing post to argue their case to the judges before they rule on the issue. We will allow a little lenience on this when a case involves several people arguing amongst each other as that’s difficult to manage with a limited number of posts, but if it starts to get really long-winded a GM will generally step in and force a vote.

If your character is called out:

  • First, realize this is not a personal attack. We're just trying to ensure that this tournament runs smoothly for everyone.

  • Please address the concerns brought forth, either by standing firm and arguing for your character’s inclusion, or by buffing/nerfing the character. Please keep the amount of buffs and nerfs to a minimum. This isn’t a good place to redesign the character from the ground up, and you don’t get any extra Major changes at this point. If the judges determine that it would take more than one Major change to balance the character, your character can also be ruled out of tier that way.

  • If it’s agreed that a character cannot work in its current state and can’t be easily edited, replacements from the backup submissions will be issued. If one of your characters is being removed you are free to request a specific backup to replace your submission, otherwise a GM will choose for you.

Swapping Backups

If a character is ruled out of tier, you will have the opportunity to swap them with a character from the backup list. Here are some quick clarifications about that.

  • Once you ping a GM (please ping /u/GuyOfEvil first, but myself or /u/OddDirective can also pass it on to him) with your backup swap of choice, they are now locked in. You are unable to pick a backup, then change your mind and pick a different one later.

  • If you pick a NSFW backup to replace one of your characters, you will be unable to opt out of receiving NSFW submissions. Keep this in mind when you’re choosing a backup.

  • If your character is ruled out of tier, and by the end of tribunal you have not picked a backup to replace them, GM’s will default to filling in the slots with your backup submissions. In the case that you have no backups and are seemingly unavailable to pick backups, the GM will swap in characters of their own preference. Since you will be guaranteed one of these submissions in your pool, it’s best to remain active in tribunal, or you may get a character you’re not satisfied with.

If you see a problem with the roster:

  • Make a post and let us know. Odds are, you will have to resubmit the form with the correct info so if you want to just go ahead and do that and let Letter know to look for the new entry, that would save time.

  • If your problem is that you don't show up in the list, it’s because you never filled out/submitted the form... just go ahead and do that NOW, assuming that you started your sign up process before this post was created. Here’s the form. If you need to make a change because you swapped things out, just make sure you’re signed into the same account you initially used and you’ll be able to update your form. Please let Letter know either on Reddit or on Discord if you do this. DO NOT CHANGE YOUR FORM IF YOU HAVE TO TAKE A BACKUP REPLACEMENT FOR ANOTHER CHARACTER. We’ll handle those swaps personally when Tribunal ends.

Judges

In order to streamline the decision making process, we have selected a small panel of judges that will, along with the GMs help make decisions on characters where a resolution cannot be reached.

Please give it up for...

/u/TheMightyBox72, /u/Corvette1710, /u/Ultim8_Lifeform /u/Wapulatus

There were a lot of great applications this time around, so if you weren’t picked don’t feel too bummed out. It was pretty close between everyone.

Here's how the judge system works:

  • If a submission is called out and all parties involved cannot agree as to whether the submission is in tier, ping any three of the judges.

  • Once judges are being called in, the argument is effectively over. Both sides of the argument will be allowed to post a Closing Argument which sums up their stance, their argument thus far, and any other major notes they might not have been able to touch on just yet or counter-arguments that hadn’t been answered yet. Be complete on this, as this is your last chance to get your word in before the judges decide on the case and effectively close it.

  • Three of the judges or GMs involved will then each make a statement on whether they think the character is or is not in tier and why. If they're able to come to a complete consensus, then that decision is made final. If a complete consensus is not made among the judges, then the resolution defaults to the majority decision. However, in this case, the decision can be appealed.

  • To appeal a decision, respond to the post in which the statements are made explaining why you think the arguments made were wrong or inaccurate. After an appeal is made, the remaining two judges will step in and also vote. This vote out of 5 is effectively final. If the previous vote was 2-1 and the new vote is 2-3, them’s the breaks. This is also why an initial unanimous vote among 3 is final, as changing a 3-0 vote to a 3-2 vote doesn’t accomplish anything.

  • If a final decision is made, then that decision is completely final. You cannot argue it further. If that means a character is in, they won't be brought back up again. If that means a character gets removed, your options are to choose the backup you want to replace them or let a GM choose instead. /u/GuyofEvil is in charge of the backup list, so ping him or have a judge ping him to get any backup swaps sorted out.

  • To be clear, GMs can do whatever they want and don’t answer to you. If we want to take the place of a judge in a vote, we will. If we want to singularly decide on something, we will (note that this will be very rare and most likely only happen near the end of Tribunal to wrap things up or in cases where something is clearly un-submittable, such as a character from a literal porn series). If we say something needs to be removed for whatever reason, what we say goes. The judges will handle the majority of the Tribunal process, we’re just here to smite shit from the heavens. That takes work, though, so expect the judges to do more judging than us.

  • If a GM takes the place of a judge in a vote, they’re effectively identical to a judge for that vote. That in mind, if the vote goes 2 to 1 and gets appealed, the remaining judges can still step in on the final 2-person vote.

Veto & NSFW Opt-Out

We will be implementing an opt-out similarly to last season, wherein after Tribunal a link will be posted here letting you designate whether or not you wish to receive a character that is considered NSFW for sexual content. We may also include extreme gore as NSFW.

Additionally, in the same form you will be asked to veto any one character. If you want to, you may designate a character, and you will be guaranteed to not receive them.

A few notes on this process:

  • A link to this form will be posted on this thread in the top section after Tribunal has ended. The link will also be posted on the Scramble Discord channel. 2 days (48 hours) after the link has been posted, the form will be locked and the GMs will prepare to scramble rosters.

  • We will not be indicating in any way what characters are and aren’t NSFW. This isn’t an opportunity for you to choose to veto a specific list of characters. This is an opportunity for you to decide whether or not you want a character with NSFW content. NSFW generally only applies to sexual content- we don’t typically include violence and gore in this opt-out.

  • To that end, anyone who is underaged is automatically opted out of receiving NSFW submissions. While we are aware of certain individuals this applies to, if it is found that you are hiding your age in an attempt to receive a NSFW character on your team despite being under 18, you will be immediately disqualified.

  • While we did ask in the signup form whether your submissions were NSFW or not, final judgment falls to us as GMs. We may choose to include characters in the list that weren’t marked, and vice versa.

  • Your veto can be for any character you absolutely don’t want, whether or not they’re included in the opt-out or not. If the character is included in the opt-out, you apply for the opt-out, and you also veto the character, you do NOT get to pick a second character to veto.

  • You cannot veto your own submissions or backups you pick to replace a Tribunaled submission. If you do, the veto will be ignored.

Discord Rules on Tribunal Discussion

In order to ensure that every scrambler is equally able to contribute to the Tribunal, discussion of specific Tribunal cases will NOT BE ALLOWED on the Discord channel. We believe it is unfair for people to “come to a decision” on a character entirely out of your field of view if you are not on the server, so the topic is banned entirely. Linking to a discussion with the intent to have a Discord user comment on that chain on Reddit is perfectly fine, but actual discussion of the cases will result in the users being warned the first time, and kicked the second time. We have a zero-tolerance policy on this situation.

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7

u/LetterSequence ​ Aug 18 '22

Daily Highlight Thread (Day 1)

This post will be to highlight specific subs so that no one slips through the cracks overlooked. If you wish to call out any characters on this list, just ping the user as a comment underneath this thread with your issues.

/u/7thSonOfSons

/u/agrizzlybear23

/u/angelsrallyon

/u/Artemisia846

/u/CalicoLime

2

u/InverseFlash Aug 18 '22

/u/7thSonOfSons

Kirei Kotomine

is not in tier. Your justification relies on Kirei closing the gap and turning Galahad into a bloodbath. His lose condition is getting shot on the way there. Kirei, being stipped to be specifically in his old form and only using VN feats, does not have the bulletproof feats for his frock that are present in Fate/Zero. Now, this could be fixed with a major change bulletproof vest, but Kirei is too fast to even get shot.

Kirei can move 10m towards a target he means to kill in an instant. The average length of a school bus is 8m to about 15m, according to a quick search. To be more in depth, there are nine rows of seats (based on the amount of windows used in the picture). Each seat is roughly 2.5 feet, giving this bus roughly a ten meter length with the driver seat factored in. This means that Kirei will already be within close combat range as soon as the fight starts, before Galahad can fire a shot off.

Kirei will win a CQC, you said it in your own justification. I'll throw in some feats to back that up.

Even if Gazelle gives him some feats against a blade-wielding opponent, Kirei does not use his Black Keys in close combat, preferring to use them to block projectiles. This means that in hand to hand, where he can use his internally-damaging punches, Kirei completely ignores the Kingsman suit and takes out Galahad with extreme prejudice.

Galahad is:

Because of all of this, I don't think he is in tier.

2

u/7thSonOfSons ​ Aug 18 '22

This argument is already entirely too specific to be of any value to actual tiering. Requiring googling specifics of a bus is so in the weeds it's irrelevent to an actual discussion of tiering. So I will ignore it.

Second of all, Kirei not being bullet proof is fully intentional. Being fast and strong but not particularly durable is well within his archetype and role within his story, and is unnecessary to change. Being bullet proof would likewise actually make him out of tier.

Galahad is able to fire bullets at Kirei, whether while he approaches or in melee. He possesses martial arts skill to try and keep up with or counter Kirei's Bajiquan. Although Galahad's bullet proof vest is not applicable against Kirei's strikes, he's already been shown to take attacks from superhumanly strong physical opponents, with the one arm robot guy. This is without considering Galahad's other options including the shoe knife, the flame thrower, using the umbrella to defend against a potential dirk-range assault, or any other number of interactions.

Kirei is strong, but he's not too strong for Galahad to survive. Kirei is fast, but he's not so fast Galahad can't fight. Kirei is not durable, so Galahad is able to keep him at severe risk even in melee, and especially at range. I don't see why this is an issue.

1

u/InverseFlash Aug 18 '22

I don't think it's really fair to say that what makes your character oot is nothing, but you didn't rebut it, so I can't respond to that either.

Kirei doesn't need to be durable when he just ignores damage to keep on fighting, both blunt and piercing. He is completely nonplussed at the concept of Shirou's swords carving him up while Kirei punches him. And then he goes on to beat Shirou's ass in spite of the wounds he receives every time he does so.

Galahad's gear would be useful in the fight, probably. But Kirei isn't going to give him the chance to use it. Galahad uses his gun first and foremost over any other piece of gear, and by the time Kirei gets within close range, he is too slow to use any of his other things without Kirei getting free shots while his arms are grabbing the gear. The only thing that wouldn't require his hands is the shoe knife, and Kirei has already shown that he doesn't particularly care about getting stabbed while brutalizing someone.

You say taking Charlie's (the superhuman in the feat) attacks shows that Galahad can take attacks from Kirei, but there is nothing that says the robotic arm deals organ damage the way Kirei can, or that Charlie is as fast as Kirei is in combat (he's not: Charlie and Eggsy are pretty even in a fight, and you said Kirei is faster).

1

u/7thSonOfSons ​ Aug 18 '22

Getting cut up with swords while beating someones ass and being shot in the brain/heart are two entirely different concepts. Not being durable mean Kirei has no means of surviving either attack, or any means of protecting himself from them. He has to be fast in order to not get hit, and he still very well could be.

The other gear comes up in situations where Kirei doesn't immediately run straight at "man with a gun" and instead does literally anything else, which is perfectly reasonable. Even in melee combat, Galahad is able to use the gun as a constant threat on Kirei, whose fighting style of Bajiquan does not have feats for nor is a style designed for disarming.

Speaking of Bajiquan, Kirei doing "organ damage" isn't a feat of Kirei specifically ignoring durability and just blasting Shirou's organs apart. That's not how durability or martial arts work, in real life or in universe. It's a consequence of Shirou's falling apart half-dead body being unable to take those hits. Nor is being explicitly 'faster' in a fight isn't the end all be all of the argument, considering that Galahad's most used, most proficient piece of equipment, that is to say a gun is very likely to be used to end the fight instantly.

1

u/InverseFlash Aug 19 '22

I get the feeling that we won't be convincing each other so do you mind if I call judges

1

u/7thSonOfSons ​ Aug 19 '22

Nah go ahead, I don't really have more to add

1

u/InverseFlash Aug 19 '22

/u/TheMightyBox72 can you make aware in judge chat that kirei is ready for judging

3

u/Ultim8_Lifeform ​ Aug 20 '22 edited Aug 20 '22

So the point of division is that 7th claims Kirei can close the distance between him and Galahad where he'll then have a notable strength and speed advantage but could potentially be shot on the way there or afterwards while Inverse claims he is too fast to be shot and could power through the majority of the shots anyway.

Before getting into my thoughts, I'll say right away that Kirei is right on the upper border of what I'd consider acceptable of Galahad.

Strength: As both of you have agreed, Kirei's strength is notably higher than Galahad's. Kneeing an opponent several meters in the air, turning someone into a bloody smear by dragging them, and ripping off someone's arm are all major threats if Kirei manages to close the distance between them. Galahad knocking away some average sized men is obviously not comparable and him taking blows from a man that could dent a car will only protect from so many punches, nor will it stop him from getting turned into a bloody smear on the pavement.

So that means that Galahad will just have to compensate with speed and agility right? Well...

Speed/Agility: Once again you both seem to agree that Kirei is a fair bit faster than Galahad. His reactions allow him to deflect three thrown dirks arguably at once (since that's how True Assassin has thrown them before) and can run at run at 50kph, which a google search tells me is over 3x faster than an average person and faster than the world record sprint, all while carrying someone else. Add his ability to jump 10 meters into the air in an instant (while normally I'd ignore feats like these, the tier is low enough that I feel they are relevant despite the vagueness), and Galahad will have an extremely tough time keeping up. Dodging a thrown knife gives him reactions in a similar ball park to Kirei, but Kirei still has quite the advantage.

Durability: Finally the monster has a weakness. Outside of leaping from the equivalent of an eight story fall, all he has is being beaten by Shirou (I won't get into the weeds of that horrendous five person scaling chain but it doesn't matter much if Galahad's main win condition is "shoots him"). He can power through stab wounds but his actual piercing resistance is non-existent. He also has no esoteric options besides being unhurt by the mud of the grail which negates Eggsy's flamethrower.

This all is to say that this seems like a pretty standard case of a glass canon. I wouldn't consider 'organ damage' a specific attribute of Kirei's punches but he'll still be capable of taking out Galahad in a small amount of blows even if he opts not to go for his blood smear finisher. He's faster than anything Galahad's fought before both in travel speed and reactions, so Galahad won't be able to avoid Kirei's blows for long despite his martial arts skill. While not durable in the traditional sense, Kirei can power through most nonfatal woulds until he's killed his opponent.

Ultimately it comes down to 7th's initial justification of whether or not Galahad can shoot Kirei in the heart or brain before he's beaten to a bloody pulp. I've been going back and forth on this but I ended up landing on yes. It would take some meme level accuracy feats to land a fatal shot on Kirei, but I think Galahad has the feats he needs. He casually and consistently lands headshots while running through hallways and dodging gunfire himself, but it was landing two headshots while he was flipping another enemy that cemented it for me.

As I said this is probably the highest end character I would ever permit in this tier and I feel like he'd maybe fit better in a tier up with a durability buff. I think he'd fit a lot more nicely if his blood smearing kill was stipped out and maybe a major change was used to kill Shirou scaling and the massive scaling chain that comes with it so that Galahad's normal punches mean something, however neither really affect his main win-condition of 'shoot good' so that's more of a suggestion than an order.

Kirei Kotmine is

In Tier

3

u/GuyOfEvil ​ Aug 20 '22

Remorseless Killer

O, man of the holy cloth

What makes you so foul

There are a handful of points made here I think are just generally kinda wack, I will address them before I go into the bulk of my judgment.

  • Kirei's strikes don't do "organ damage" like that's some esoteric, thats just what happens if you get punched really hard

  • Kirei's ability to fight through piercing damage is way overblown. The feat in question is on his hand. I know it's VN only, but I'll link the anime version here because I think its a good visualization. Getting cut in the knuckles is going to be pretty not hard to fight through. It's conventional wisdom to check if something is too hot to touch by touching it with the back of your hand for this reason, its one of the parts of the body that has the least nerve endings. Kirei can fight through pain, but I do not think there is good evidence to suggest him getting shot in the chest or leg or whatever would have 0 effect.

So I don't think Kirei has some really special ability to win in melee, and I don't think he has any kind of advantage in durability at all. So there are just two questions I think remain on the table.

1) Can Galahad shoot Kirei before he gets to CQC

2) How much is Kirei winning in CQC

And I think the answer to both is more or less just "I think Kirei is fairly favored, but not overwhelmingly so."

For the first question, it is true that Kirei can close more or less the entire starting distance in "an instant," but I think this scan is too vague to say like "there's literally nothing that can be done." He's obviously not teleporting, and it seems like "amassing his strength and releasing it" requires some amount of tangible action time. I think it's possible for Galahad to at least get his gun up in that timeframe. I think Kirei gets to melee more often than not, but the scan really isn't clear enough to be a guarentee.

And as for how much he's winning in melee, I think that's a lot less than Inverse seems to be thinking. His strength feats are for sure good, but I don't really think they're insanely far above this tier, especially him sending someone flying a few meters with a kick, that's more or less just what the tier looks like.

And his combat speed is similarly not insanely impressive, since his dirk feat specifically mentions that he's predicting them based on the fact that they move in a straightforward manner. I don't think this feat implies insanely good combat speed, I think Galahad is still more than capable of getting into a position where he can shoot Kirei in melee.

So I think Kirei is definitely somewhere up there on likely victory, but Galahad has a pretty clear and actionable win condition that Kirei's feats are not clearly massively overwhelming to. I'm willing to give this one an In-Tier

1

u/TheMightyBox72 ​ Aug 20 '22

I do think Inverse makes some pretty good arguments here, however, after reviewing the scans more in context, I think I will agree that Kirei is in tier.

My initial main concern was Kirei's ability to blitz, however, I think that Galahad shows enough ability to consistently dodge projectiles moving at similar speeds, which is where the vagueness of the feat does cause trouble. And this isn't a situation dodging projectiles can't be equated to dodging a person because the movement in question is a direct lunge where he's essentially turning himself into a projectile.

Beyond that, I don't think any of his stats are egregiously out of tier. His strength is good for the tier, obviously, but him smearing a man across the wall clearly took some amount of time given the file is 15 goddamn images (that was a joke, I think it took some time due to there being multiple stated actions and a long speech in between the start and end) and his single strike feats like knocking someone several meters and crunching up internal organs are for sure not too strong, they're high end, but in tier. His lack of durability and Galahad's ability to just shoot someone in the skull therefor makes his kit balanced, in my opinion.