r/whowouldwin • u/FreestyleKneepad • Aug 18 '22
Event Character Scramble 16 Tribunal
Tribunal is now over!
Click here to pick your Veto or Opt-Out of NSFW subs
Thanks to everyone involved for your hard work. :)
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Come join our official Discord Channel! It’s the most active community for Scramble by a HUGE margin, and is the first place to get new info as it comes out. You don’t even have to participate in the chat to be a part of the fun, so just swing on by!
Refer to the following links for easy access to all the resources you need to debate cases:
Season 16 Tiersetter RT’s for Predator and Galahad
Current list of unclaimed backups
Signup FAQ
Link to the Pre-Scrambled Roster for this season
Featured Submissions
In an attempt to help aid the review process, we will be highlighting a section of the submissions each day to focus the lens on a group of submissions. Understand that these submissions aren’t being picked due to any reasoning or bias beyond their position on the list alphabetically, our goal is to help you focus on specific parts of the submission list each day in the hopes that characters that would normally pass under the radar are given proper scrutiny.
Here are the featured submissions for today.
The link will be changed each day until we’ve covered the entire submission roster or until Tribunal has ended.
Here’s how this works.
For the next One and a Half Weeks, all characters are under review. If you think a character is not in tier, whether they be too weak, too strong, too nebulous, or somewhere in between, here is where you can air your grievances. We'll be going through all of the submissions during this time, all I ask is that you follow along and call what you see.
Tribunal will end in about 2 weeks, on Monday, August 29th, or when all cases are closed if that happens first.
To clarify, this deadline is subject to change if we decide that there are unresolved issues that warrant some more time. Don’t worry, we’re not going to spend the entire time arguing about Pyramid Head. If we get done early and there’s only a couple cases left a few days before Saturday, odds are good we’ll wrap those cases up and end Tribunal early. Every remaining case will be notified if that’s happening.
If you have a problem with a character:
Create a comment with the name of the character in question, a link to that character sheet, and the username (with /u/ to notify them - /u/GuyOfEvil for instance) of the submitter. Then list what questions/problems you have with the character.
Please be respectful when calling out characters, and remember that you are probably pointing out problems with someone's favorite character/series.
Keep in mind that Tribunal is for judging whether a character is too strong/weak for the tier. Whether or not you personally like the character or think they’re good/well-written has no bearing on whether or not they’re in tier.
Please give a detailed complaint about each character a separate reply to make sure that conversations are organized. Quick thoughts on multiple characters in one post are fine as well as long as you keep each case clearly separated.
Starting with the initial complaint post, each person involved gets five full posts to argue their point back and forth. If a decision is not reached by that point, judges must be called in to make a decision. If that happens, the person issuing the complaint and the person whose submission is being complained about both get one closing post to argue their case to the judges before they rule on the issue. We will allow a little lenience on this when a case involves several people arguing amongst each other as that’s difficult to manage with a limited number of posts, but if it starts to get really long-winded a GM will generally step in and force a vote.
If your character is called out:
First, realize this is not a personal attack. We're just trying to ensure that this tournament runs smoothly for everyone.
Please address the concerns brought forth, either by standing firm and arguing for your character’s inclusion, or by buffing/nerfing the character. Please keep the amount of buffs and nerfs to a minimum. This isn’t a good place to redesign the character from the ground up, and you don’t get any extra Major changes at this point. If the judges determine that it would take more than one Major change to balance the character, your character can also be ruled out of tier that way.
If it’s agreed that a character cannot work in its current state and can’t be easily edited, replacements from the backup submissions will be issued. If one of your characters is being removed you are free to request a specific backup to replace your submission, otherwise a GM will choose for you.
Swapping Backups
If a character is ruled out of tier, you will have the opportunity to swap them with a character from the backup list. Here are some quick clarifications about that.
Once you ping a GM (please ping /u/GuyOfEvil first, but myself or /u/OddDirective can also pass it on to him) with your backup swap of choice, they are now locked in. You are unable to pick a backup, then change your mind and pick a different one later.
If you pick a NSFW backup to replace one of your characters, you will be unable to opt out of receiving NSFW submissions. Keep this in mind when you’re choosing a backup.
If your character is ruled out of tier, and by the end of tribunal you have not picked a backup to replace them, GM’s will default to filling in the slots with your backup submissions. In the case that you have no backups and are seemingly unavailable to pick backups, the GM will swap in characters of their own preference. Since you will be guaranteed one of these submissions in your pool, it’s best to remain active in tribunal, or you may get a character you’re not satisfied with.
If you see a problem with the roster:
Make a post and let us know. Odds are, you will have to resubmit the form with the correct info so if you want to just go ahead and do that and let Letter know to look for the new entry, that would save time.
If your problem is that you don't show up in the list, it’s because you never filled out/submitted the form... just go ahead and do that NOW, assuming that you started your sign up process before this post was created. Here’s the form. If you need to make a change because you swapped things out, just make sure you’re signed into the same account you initially used and you’ll be able to update your form. Please let Letter know either on Reddit or on Discord if you do this. DO NOT CHANGE YOUR FORM IF YOU HAVE TO TAKE A BACKUP REPLACEMENT FOR ANOTHER CHARACTER. We’ll handle those swaps personally when Tribunal ends.
Judges
In order to streamline the decision making process, we have selected a small panel of judges that will, along with the GMs help make decisions on characters where a resolution cannot be reached.
Please give it up for...
/u/TheMightyBox72, /u/Corvette1710, /u/Ultim8_Lifeform /u/Wapulatus
There were a lot of great applications this time around, so if you weren’t picked don’t feel too bummed out. It was pretty close between everyone.
Here's how the judge system works:
If a submission is called out and all parties involved cannot agree as to whether the submission is in tier, ping any three of the judges.
Once judges are being called in, the argument is effectively over. Both sides of the argument will be allowed to post a Closing Argument which sums up their stance, their argument thus far, and any other major notes they might not have been able to touch on just yet or counter-arguments that hadn’t been answered yet. Be complete on this, as this is your last chance to get your word in before the judges decide on the case and effectively close it.
Three of the judges or GMs involved will then each make a statement on whether they think the character is or is not in tier and why. If they're able to come to a complete consensus, then that decision is made final. If a complete consensus is not made among the judges, then the resolution defaults to the majority decision. However, in this case, the decision can be appealed.
To appeal a decision, respond to the post in which the statements are made explaining why you think the arguments made were wrong or inaccurate. After an appeal is made, the remaining two judges will step in and also vote. This vote out of 5 is effectively final. If the previous vote was 2-1 and the new vote is 2-3, them’s the breaks. This is also why an initial unanimous vote among 3 is final, as changing a 3-0 vote to a 3-2 vote doesn’t accomplish anything.
If a final decision is made, then that decision is completely final. You cannot argue it further. If that means a character is in, they won't be brought back up again. If that means a character gets removed, your options are to choose the backup you want to replace them or let a GM choose instead. /u/GuyofEvil is in charge of the backup list, so ping him or have a judge ping him to get any backup swaps sorted out.
To be clear, GMs can do whatever they want and don’t answer to you. If we want to take the place of a judge in a vote, we will. If we want to singularly decide on something, we will (note that this will be very rare and most likely only happen near the end of Tribunal to wrap things up or in cases where something is clearly un-submittable, such as a character from a literal porn series). If we say something needs to be removed for whatever reason, what we say goes. The judges will handle the majority of the Tribunal process, we’re just here to smite shit from the heavens. That takes work, though, so expect the judges to do more judging than us.
If a GM takes the place of a judge in a vote, they’re effectively identical to a judge for that vote. That in mind, if the vote goes 2 to 1 and gets appealed, the remaining judges can still step in on the final 2-person vote.
Veto & NSFW Opt-Out
We will be implementing an opt-out similarly to last season, wherein after Tribunal a link will be posted here letting you designate whether or not you wish to receive a character that is considered NSFW for sexual content. We may also include extreme gore as NSFW.
Additionally, in the same form you will be asked to veto any one character. If you want to, you may designate a character, and you will be guaranteed to not receive them.
A few notes on this process:
A link to this form will be posted on this thread in the top section after Tribunal has ended. The link will also be posted on the Scramble Discord channel. 2 days (48 hours) after the link has been posted, the form will be locked and the GMs will prepare to scramble rosters.
We will not be indicating in any way what characters are and aren’t NSFW. This isn’t an opportunity for you to choose to veto a specific list of characters. This is an opportunity for you to decide whether or not you want a character with NSFW content. NSFW generally only applies to sexual content- we don’t typically include violence and gore in this opt-out.
To that end, anyone who is underaged is automatically opted out of receiving NSFW submissions. While we are aware of certain individuals this applies to, if it is found that you are hiding your age in an attempt to receive a NSFW character on your team despite being under 18, you will be immediately disqualified.
While we did ask in the signup form whether your submissions were NSFW or not, final judgment falls to us as GMs. We may choose to include characters in the list that weren’t marked, and vice versa.
Your veto can be for any character you absolutely don’t want, whether or not they’re included in the opt-out or not. If the character is included in the opt-out, you apply for the opt-out, and you also veto the character, you do NOT get to pick a second character to veto.
You cannot veto your own submissions or backups you pick to replace a Tribunaled submission. If you do, the veto will be ignored.
Discord Rules on Tribunal Discussion
In order to ensure that every scrambler is equally able to contribute to the Tribunal, discussion of specific Tribunal cases will NOT BE ALLOWED on the Discord channel. We believe it is unfair for people to “come to a decision” on a character entirely out of your field of view if you are not on the server, so the topic is banned entirely. Linking to a discussion with the intent to have a Discord user comment on that chain on Reddit is perfectly fine, but actual discussion of the cases will result in the users being warned the first time, and kicked the second time. We have a zero-tolerance policy on this situation.
1
u/InverseFlash Aug 18 '22
Well, I am allowed 50k characters to argue my submission, so I'm gonna use it. (This is not true, I think the judges would hate me).
This might get redundant a little, sorry judges.
So you're saying this sub's mechanic doesn't work. The mechanic of "giving a sub gear". Let's look at the other submissions in the pool who do that.
Here are the reaper subs who give gear in general. (Partially) is given to subs who have more benefits than just providing gear. Note that some of these subs have already been removed/DQ'd but I'm going off the signups list as a whole.
Here are the reaper subs who give guns specifically.
Speaking of, clev, assuming that you actually read my argument instead of scrolling to the bottom of the first comment and judge calling, Elizabeth Comstock and Puppetmon are incorrectly labeled as backup players. Guy has Puppetmon as a player in the backup list likely due to this.
Anyway, these are all of the reapers who give guns. More on this later when I create a defense argument all in one place.
See above?
I'm pretty sure the spirit of a "Manager" tier has always been to give those that normally would not make it in Scramble a chance to shine. Was I in Scramble the previous season that we had Masters, Season 9? No(t really, I dropped in tribunal), but given what popular discourse in the Discord server has said, and my two successful knock-off Scrambles which had Masters go along these lines, I am inclined to believe that the reason I submitted Gun God and V/V is not completely alien to this concept.
I think that was just used as emphasis for your point because I don't know how this was any different.
I did his signup post just fine, I think. Everything required by the post is there, if a bit short at times. But Odd didn't tell me to finish it like he did for other subs yesterday.
This is wrong. I was not told directly, I was "advised". Not forced. Odd had ample time afterwards even to correct me on this, if that was what he meant. In addition, this was not based on the sub violating a rule, it was based on a sub turning a fight into "one-shot or be one-shot". Which is a common occurrence in this tier. Any sub tiered against Galahad is likely to be shot in the head due to his repeated targeting of heads in all of his [scenes](pretend there was another feat in the RT I could put here so it looks better). Now, the Bulletproof Vest major change...covers the same area as the Kingsman suit. Not the head. So if you can't avoid being shot in the head in the first second of the battle, you are one-shot. Guns are a large factor of this tier allowing in one-shot subs.
Now for the real defense. Some of these qualms were brought up in the Discord, so I would like to address them here.
A sniper rifle that one shots. Don't worry about anything else for right now, lets just go through how the fight would functionally play out. He gives the Black Barrel to the marine of his choice. The Predator knows which one has it, and knows that it will kill him should he be hit by it. The marine will have one chance to fire it before it takes him out of the fight, and while he is down he will most likely be killed by the Predator. Stakes are high.
This argument feels not-in-the-spirit of Scramble. If someone has a character that can only use chi pathways to fight, or is a Force user, and they are dropped in a setting that does not have Chinese martial arts energy or midichlorians, are they going to be useless on a team? Sure, if you really want to write it like that. I don't think you would win if you did that, unless you had a narrative reason for doing so. Like "Obi-Wan is old now and can't use the Force as good" or "Lord Xiongnu stole the world's chi." Inventiveness has always been key in Scramble, I don't know why this is any different. This also counters the argument that subbing Gun God is "pigeonholing" a person's run by forcing them to use the Notes setting.
Alright, sorry to Fatesplain, I know nobody is a fan of it. The Black Barrel fires a bullet that disintegrates anything holding Ether or Grain within it. I can't really explain Ether easily, but it definitely has nothing to do with the tier fight, so that's fine. Grain, literally alternatively translated as "Space Dust," is the name for toxic particles that cover an Earth which can no longer sustain life. This means that there is no longer an ozone layer to keep out the harmful space stuff that currently protects us today. The more Grain something contains, the stronger the bullet will be, with seemingly no limit. This property extends to its wielder: it is impossible to hold the gun unless your body is free of Ether or Grain, else you will be destroyed as well. Gun God is able to get past this requirement by being a human who has never been genetically evolved to deal with the conditions on Earth; a plain human.
Because of this reasoning, I think that the Predator would be taken down relatively easily by the Black Barrel. He is from outside of Earth. Beings that the Black Barrel kills have also come from outside Earth. I don't think that this would require a change beyond "broaden your horizons".
Guns put down a lot of characters in this tier. If you're an action movie hero, chances are, you use a gun. Chances are, you've been shot, and it hurt. Galahad's RT states that unloading a clip into him would hurt. There is a given major change that one can receive bulletproof covering. This is due to subs that, if they were shot, would be debilitated at the very least. One-shot fights are something that should kind of be expected in a tier this low, where guns can potentially kill a submission in one hit.
Giving guns to your team as a Reaper benefit only works because the Predator's armor is "totally bulletproof" according to the RT. This doesn't even make sense to me personally, because it's not like having a new gun is going to change the fact that the bullets will bounce off the Predator. I think that a Reaper providing regular guns either does nothing to change the course of the fight, because it's more bullets that don't do anything to him, or the bullets pierce the armor and kill him. With this in mind, examine how the Black Barrel works:
It provides both a buff and a debuff to the marines as compensation for being able to pierce the Predator's armor. This actually makes it more in tier than if you just had guns that could break the armor, because there would be multiple of them and Predator wouldn't be able to counter at all. There is only one Black Barrel, and the marine who shoots it will be out of the fight after they do so. This makes the fight a lot more variable, and the Predator is capable of using his knowledge of "hey, this gun will kill me," to take cover when he's exposed, go invisible, use the other marines as human shields (since the Barrel's bullet to them is just a regular shot), etc.
Side note: these marines are notably weaker than the entire sub pool: it takes four of them to score an Unlikely Victory against the Predator. A character sub very well could just not be knocked out by the gun's recoil in the context of tiering, let alone the context of a writeup where tiers are thrown to the wind.