r/whowouldwin • u/FreestyleKneepad ​ • Aug 18 '22

Event Character Scramble 16 Tribunal

Tribunal is now over!

Click here to pick your Veto or Opt-Out of NSFW subs

Thanks to everyone involved for your hard work. :)

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Refer to the following links for easy access to all the resources you need to debate cases:

Season 16 Tiersetter RT’s for Predator and Galahad

Current list of unclaimed backups

Signup FAQ

Link to the Pre-Scrambled Roster for this season

Featured Submissions

In an attempt to help aid the review process, we will be highlighting a section of the submissions each day to focus the lens on a group of submissions. Understand that these submissions aren’t being picked due to any reasoning or bias beyond their position on the list alphabetically, our goal is to help you focus on specific parts of the submission list each day in the hopes that characters that would normally pass under the radar are given proper scrutiny.

Here are the featured submissions for today.

The link will be changed each day until we’ve covered the entire submission roster or until Tribunal has ended.

Here’s how this works.

For the next One and a Half Weeks, all characters are under review. If you think a character is not in tier, whether they be too weak, too strong, too nebulous, or somewhere in between, here is where you can air your grievances. We'll be going through all of the submissions during this time, all I ask is that you follow along and call what you see.

Tribunal will end in about 2 weeks, on Monday, August 29th, or when all cases are closed if that happens first.

To clarify, this deadline is subject to change if we decide that there are unresolved issues that warrant some more time. Don’t worry, we’re not going to spend the entire time arguing about Pyramid Head. If we get done early and there’s only a couple cases left a few days before Saturday, odds are good we’ll wrap those cases up and end Tribunal early. Every remaining case will be notified if that’s happening.

If you have a problem with a character:

  • Create a comment with the name of the character in question, a link to that character sheet, and the username (with /u/ to notify them - /u/GuyOfEvil for instance) of the submitter. Then list what questions/problems you have with the character.

  • Please be respectful when calling out characters, and remember that you are probably pointing out problems with someone's favorite character/series.

  • Keep in mind that Tribunal is for judging whether a character is too strong/weak for the tier. Whether or not you personally like the character or think they’re good/well-written has no bearing on whether or not they’re in tier.

  • Please give a detailed complaint about each character a separate reply to make sure that conversations are organized. Quick thoughts on multiple characters in one post are fine as well as long as you keep each case clearly separated.

  • Starting with the initial complaint post, each person involved gets five full posts to argue their point back and forth. If a decision is not reached by that point, judges must be called in to make a decision. If that happens, the person issuing the complaint and the person whose submission is being complained about both get one closing post to argue their case to the judges before they rule on the issue. We will allow a little lenience on this when a case involves several people arguing amongst each other as that’s difficult to manage with a limited number of posts, but if it starts to get really long-winded a GM will generally step in and force a vote.

If your character is called out:

  • First, realize this is not a personal attack. We're just trying to ensure that this tournament runs smoothly for everyone.

  • Please address the concerns brought forth, either by standing firm and arguing for your character’s inclusion, or by buffing/nerfing the character. Please keep the amount of buffs and nerfs to a minimum. This isn’t a good place to redesign the character from the ground up, and you don’t get any extra Major changes at this point. If the judges determine that it would take more than one Major change to balance the character, your character can also be ruled out of tier that way.

  • If it’s agreed that a character cannot work in its current state and can’t be easily edited, replacements from the backup submissions will be issued. If one of your characters is being removed you are free to request a specific backup to replace your submission, otherwise a GM will choose for you.

Swapping Backups

If a character is ruled out of tier, you will have the opportunity to swap them with a character from the backup list. Here are some quick clarifications about that.

  • Once you ping a GM (please ping /u/GuyOfEvil first, but myself or /u/OddDirective can also pass it on to him) with your backup swap of choice, they are now locked in. You are unable to pick a backup, then change your mind and pick a different one later.

  • If you pick a NSFW backup to replace one of your characters, you will be unable to opt out of receiving NSFW submissions. Keep this in mind when you’re choosing a backup.

  • If your character is ruled out of tier, and by the end of tribunal you have not picked a backup to replace them, GM’s will default to filling in the slots with your backup submissions. In the case that you have no backups and are seemingly unavailable to pick backups, the GM will swap in characters of their own preference. Since you will be guaranteed one of these submissions in your pool, it’s best to remain active in tribunal, or you may get a character you’re not satisfied with.

If you see a problem with the roster:

  • Make a post and let us know. Odds are, you will have to resubmit the form with the correct info so if you want to just go ahead and do that and let Letter know to look for the new entry, that would save time.

  • If your problem is that you don't show up in the list, it’s because you never filled out/submitted the form... just go ahead and do that NOW, assuming that you started your sign up process before this post was created. Here’s the form. If you need to make a change because you swapped things out, just make sure you’re signed into the same account you initially used and you’ll be able to update your form. Please let Letter know either on Reddit or on Discord if you do this. DO NOT CHANGE YOUR FORM IF YOU HAVE TO TAKE A BACKUP REPLACEMENT FOR ANOTHER CHARACTER. We’ll handle those swaps personally when Tribunal ends.

Judges

In order to streamline the decision making process, we have selected a small panel of judges that will, along with the GMs help make decisions on characters where a resolution cannot be reached.

Please give it up for...

/u/TheMightyBox72, /u/Corvette1710, /u/Ultim8_Lifeform /u/Wapulatus

There were a lot of great applications this time around, so if you weren’t picked don’t feel too bummed out. It was pretty close between everyone.

Here's how the judge system works:

  • If a submission is called out and all parties involved cannot agree as to whether the submission is in tier, ping any three of the judges.

  • Once judges are being called in, the argument is effectively over. Both sides of the argument will be allowed to post a Closing Argument which sums up their stance, their argument thus far, and any other major notes they might not have been able to touch on just yet or counter-arguments that hadn’t been answered yet. Be complete on this, as this is your last chance to get your word in before the judges decide on the case and effectively close it.

  • Three of the judges or GMs involved will then each make a statement on whether they think the character is or is not in tier and why. If they're able to come to a complete consensus, then that decision is made final. If a complete consensus is not made among the judges, then the resolution defaults to the majority decision. However, in this case, the decision can be appealed.

  • To appeal a decision, respond to the post in which the statements are made explaining why you think the arguments made were wrong or inaccurate. After an appeal is made, the remaining two judges will step in and also vote. This vote out of 5 is effectively final. If the previous vote was 2-1 and the new vote is 2-3, them’s the breaks. This is also why an initial unanimous vote among 3 is final, as changing a 3-0 vote to a 3-2 vote doesn’t accomplish anything.

  • If a final decision is made, then that decision is completely final. You cannot argue it further. If that means a character is in, they won't be brought back up again. If that means a character gets removed, your options are to choose the backup you want to replace them or let a GM choose instead. /u/GuyofEvil is in charge of the backup list, so ping him or have a judge ping him to get any backup swaps sorted out.

  • To be clear, GMs can do whatever they want and don’t answer to you. If we want to take the place of a judge in a vote, we will. If we want to singularly decide on something, we will (note that this will be very rare and most likely only happen near the end of Tribunal to wrap things up or in cases where something is clearly un-submittable, such as a character from a literal porn series). If we say something needs to be removed for whatever reason, what we say goes. The judges will handle the majority of the Tribunal process, we’re just here to smite shit from the heavens. That takes work, though, so expect the judges to do more judging than us.

  • If a GM takes the place of a judge in a vote, they’re effectively identical to a judge for that vote. That in mind, if the vote goes 2 to 1 and gets appealed, the remaining judges can still step in on the final 2-person vote.

Veto & NSFW Opt-Out

We will be implementing an opt-out similarly to last season, wherein after Tribunal a link will be posted here letting you designate whether or not you wish to receive a character that is considered NSFW for sexual content. We may also include extreme gore as NSFW.

Additionally, in the same form you will be asked to veto any one character. If you want to, you may designate a character, and you will be guaranteed to not receive them.

A few notes on this process:

  • A link to this form will be posted on this thread in the top section after Tribunal has ended. The link will also be posted on the Scramble Discord channel. 2 days (48 hours) after the link has been posted, the form will be locked and the GMs will prepare to scramble rosters.

  • We will not be indicating in any way what characters are and aren’t NSFW. This isn’t an opportunity for you to choose to veto a specific list of characters. This is an opportunity for you to decide whether or not you want a character with NSFW content. NSFW generally only applies to sexual content- we don’t typically include violence and gore in this opt-out.

  • To that end, anyone who is underaged is automatically opted out of receiving NSFW submissions. While we are aware of certain individuals this applies to, if it is found that you are hiding your age in an attempt to receive a NSFW character on your team despite being under 18, you will be immediately disqualified.

  • While we did ask in the signup form whether your submissions were NSFW or not, final judgment falls to us as GMs. We may choose to include characters in the list that weren’t marked, and vice versa.

  • Your veto can be for any character you absolutely don’t want, whether or not they’re included in the opt-out or not. If the character is included in the opt-out, you apply for the opt-out, and you also veto the character, you do NOT get to pick a second character to veto.

  • You cannot veto your own submissions or backups you pick to replace a Tribunaled submission. If you do, the veto will be ignored.

Discord Rules on Tribunal Discussion

In order to ensure that every scrambler is equally able to contribute to the Tribunal, discussion of specific Tribunal cases will NOT BE ALLOWED on the Discord channel. We believe it is unfair for people to “come to a decision” on a character entirely out of your field of view if you are not on the server, so the topic is banned entirely. Linking to a discussion with the intent to have a Discord user comment on that chain on Reddit is perfectly fine, but actual discussion of the cases will result in the users being warned the first time, and kicked the second time. We have a zero-tolerance policy on this situation.

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u/galvanicmechamorph Aug 19 '22

I mean I just guess I don't perceive the metal bar bending feat as something obtainable by anyone in this tier even working together, but that's neither here nor there. If either trap was just a vague, aimdodgable projectile I would agree it creates an unnecessary amount of burden on the target with such a low speed for the tier, but both actively require setup (the gooper scooper needs to be moved into position and the foam trap has a noticeable charge up time) so it's not just like a cheese ray that can easily catch people off guard when in a 4v1.

The shield is not helpful defensively though. Like it extends the prep time but that doesn't change the fact that the marines are out class without additional weapon and again the large size doesn't matter because scramble has never considered just hiding under a rock a win condition.

I mean besides the fact that assuming that the cheese rat turns literally anything into cheese is a weird no limits fallacy that the competition and the subreddit has not agreed with for the entire time I've been here. I'll grab it in a moment.

I feel like we're not watching the same feats if you perceive the foam trap as an instant victory. The scooper is a close range weapon only and requires being physically moved. I could run away from it. The cheese ray basically requires multiple hits on the predator to start being effective which while good, also describes a gun. Only the cheese ray is slower. The lose condition is just them getting shot by the Predator first, like it always was. I've already explained how long range the energy shield doesn't make sense as a win condition but the Predator has an advantage in almost every stat in melee. If a marine goes up and tries to use the field but dies in the process the Predator can just turn off the field. Now that can be a suitable enough distraction that the other marines can disable his weapons with the cheese ray or use the foam trap but even with the most guaranteed incap in the form of the latter, it requires the marines controlling the positioning and a close quarters fight with an enemy that can literally ragdoll them.

The stipulation that WordGirl has some secret speed feat is not only completely misunderstanding the nature of this show but incredibly patronizing because all of y'all have been making fun of me for watching this for research but suddenly people become experts in what this show contains even though they claim they've never seen it. WordGirl consistently fails or barely succeeds at moving up the way of everything from flying meat to thrown groceries. She is not a fast character in terms of reaction time even if her movement feats are impressive. Even if there was a handful of feats showing that she is insanely fast or something there are six seasons of her being a normal human.

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u/rangernumberx Aug 20 '22

I guess the point is irrelevant, because we both believe Word Girl is far above the tier setter...but that still means that the moment any of these pieces of equipment touch Predator, he loses. And these aren't items that are just "Oh they take a while to move into position", there's ten minutes of prep time against a smart and far more mobile opponent or a group of four people trained in fighting as a team. It seems extremely unlikely that they won't use that time to set up a scenario or create a lure that will cause a character with zero speed feats to get hit once.

It can be used on the self to escape tricky situations. It could be used on the self on reaction to block hits and only let it down to let out their own attacks (neither opponent will find it impossible to hurt Predator, Galahad can already pull an unlikely victory through his speed and his bulletproof protection doesn't cover his entire body). It can be used on Predator and the fighters to confine him within an area, making it even easier to hit him with the foam gun or get him into the claws. It can be used on a larger area without Predator to set up a trap with the gear should for some reason they don't use that initial ten minutes to do so. Or, as said, the far more mobile Galahad can just get next to him and trap him before getting killed himself, or while one marine is busy getting killed another nearby not yet being attacked can use it on Predator, in both cases rendering Predator unable to escape or fight. Just because you only had the latter outcome in mind doesn't mean that's the only way the shield is abusable, nor does it mean that latter outcome itself is in tier.

I'm sorry, what's the less plausible interpretation? Seeing a ray turning whatever it hits into cheese and going "Ok whatever it hits turns into cheese", or seeing a ray turning whatever it hits into cheese and going "Well we never see it being used on something living in a preschooler's show, so we can only possibly interpret it as working on vague wood and metal objects and leaving anything else completely unaffected until any evidence otherwise is provided."

They're instant victories because the moment Predator gets hit by any of them, he's going to be unable to escape from them given how they incap the absurdly stronger Word Girl. The way you phrased the cheese ray made it sound like it would turn all of Predator's gear into cheese with a single shot, so now it feels like it's flitting between "Absurdly over tier because it turns the opponent into cheese" and "Borderline useless because now it has to individually hit several small targets in the middle of battle to neutralize them" (mostly thinking of the shoulder cannon) depending on which weapon interpretation we go with. The way you're describing the marines makes them sound incredibly incompetent, with them just blindly trying to fire the weapons towards it, stroll up to it to attempt to use the force field casually, actively attempt to move the scoop device towards it, instead of treating them like what they are: Four trained professionals with plenty of time to understand their situation, understand what they have to work with, and create the best outcome they can to ensure their victory. And like this, just being able to defeat the Predator with a single successful gear attack is too much.

Look, I'm not making fun of you for subbing a character from this show, don't accuse me of that. Honestly, I am at worst indifferent to where this character comes from, and just made a joke about the perception of him with the callout. But I bring up that hypothetical speed feat because you can't just bring in Word Girl scaling to make the gear useful, provide a showing of strength for most of them, and then completely ignore the possibility that her struggling to dodge the beams may make them far too fast for the tier. I'm using my knowledge of what I've seen from clips of the show, mostly from when Jacky worked on her RT a while back. Actually, I just checked back on the server, and saw feats of her intercepting a blast which she previously easily dodged, with it travelling far into the distance in under a second. Given how in this instance she needed to react to the weapon being fired to fly a notable distance to get in front of it before it struck its target, I feel it demonstrates good enough reaction speed to make dodging the cheese ray a problem for anyone in this tier. Also...I've genuinely just noticed this so I may be wrong. But is that weapon he's using the shrink ray? Which would make this undoubtable one-hit-win weapon too fast to be reliably dodged? I understand that you can claim inconsistencies with a character's abilities (which I don't really buy, Homer was eliminated this tribunal for being far too strong at his peak instead of just being inconsistent and often bad with his physicals), but this is a direct showing with a piece of gear you're subbing.

Given the marines (or Galahad) have ten minutes to come up with a plan to use numerous pieces of equipment, each one ensuring victory if they hit just once, the potentially instant-killing of the much more portable cheese ray (until evidence is provided to it being limited to wood and metal through a statement or showing of it not working as such), the definite instant victory of the fast shrink ray, and the versatile and indestructible shield which can either be its own instant victory, provide shelter to set up a trap or further traps with the gear, or provide immediate help against Predator's blows, I genuinely believe that Two-Brains can't fit.

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u/galvanicmechamorph Aug 20 '22

That doesn't make sense. The spawn location is the same distance as it is in the player sign ups. It doesn't matter how much time they have to prep when the fight actually starts they have to fire a gun that takes multiple seconds to charge up at Predator from a distance he can easily move out the way of. They could come up with some sort of plan but given the fact that tactical characters have the capacity to be submitted I would assume the marines don't just naturally come up with them and Two-Brains isn't really going to think of that. Any lure they could have though has a chance of failure anyways. Like if a gadget only works under specific circumstances I don't know how it can simultaneously be overpowered. Simultaneously the foam trap does not seem to work unless it hits a wall so if they just shoot form at him in an empty space at Nuketown why would it do anything? They still need the capacity to survive until they use the foam trap, which while possible with the cheese rays is not guaranteed.

I don't really see the point in continuing to argue this so I'm just going to stip it out.

"The point of Saitama's show is that he wants everything so why would I need feats?" I'll grab the Platinum conversation.

I think this comes down to disagreement on the marines. I also don't see how the cheese ray is useless here. Like you understand it turns a bulletproof target into a non-bulletproof target. Additionally it takes out the firepower that the Predator would use to cream the marines. It equalizes the playing field a whole lot.

I want to be clear for you and anyone else reading this that any engagement that I do on the merit of the actual sub is in jest. I don't actually tend to win or lose in this case on character assassination.

Ranger, if we are not allowed to discuss cases in the server because it provides an unfair advantage, how the hell are you going to link feats that require server accessibility? Here's a YouTube link of the same scene, sorry for anyone who lives outside of the US. This is aimdodging the tier, what proof do you have she didn't react to him pulling out the gun? I still stand by my statement that if she consistently struggles to dodge cheese rays that we can visibly track with our eyes she falls under the Thor is Slow theory of battle boarding and the few and far in between feats of exceptional reaction time are outliers in comparison. I also don't see the purported speed of this beam. You say it's fast because it quickly goes "into the distance" but there's absolutely no frame of reference for how far away it is or how quickly it gets there. Like absolutely worst case scenario I can stip out WordGirl speed scaling but in reality I can stip out this one singular feat because it's ambiguous as all hell. I don't think I need to though because honestly I find this completely meaningless.

Homer was rejected because his inconsistency was so broad that you couldn't create a baseline without cherry picking. This is not the same as being consistently slow with a handful of high tier feats. Especially because we're not trying to submit WordGirl we're trying to find the speed of gadgets based off of WordGirl so if she was truly so inconsistent that we can't find a baseline we should just adjudicate scaling off of the moments or episodes these gadgets appear in.

Here is him saying it doesn't work on platinum. The fact he even needs to make a special ray for platinum shows it's not all one size fits all. I'll stip out the shrink ray because it's either useless or overpowered. The foam trap and the gooper scooper I still stand by as not being fast enough to make the fight irrelevant regardless of the amount of prep time. The foam trap is stationary and they can't magically change starting positions. The gooper scooper requires people in specific positions to use its claws. Military-grade plans can make these weapons exceptionally effective but still have lose conditions in that if the predator moves out of the way of the foam trap or kills the distracting marines before the gooper scooper can get in location, they lose.

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u/rangernumberx Aug 20 '22

The spawn location is the same distance as it is in the player sign ups. It doesn't matter how much time they have to prep when the fight actually starts they have to fire a gun that takes multiple seconds to charge up at Predator from a distance he can easily move out the way of.

I will say, I genuinely forgot that they spawned into the areas as opposed to having time for some level of prep. But given that, and given how much you've been going "The foam and the claws have to be slowly wheeled and activated everywhere", I do now wonder exactly how they can hit Predator, since they take too long to activate that Predator can either dash across the distance before they can activate or turn invisible and go somewhere else while they can't see it.

"The point of Saitama's show is that he wants everything so why would I need feats?" I'll grab the Platinum conversation.

...what? Genuinely, I've re-read this and the first few bits I wrote several times and I can't tell what on earth you're referring to or on about.

Cheese ray

I will say I didn't think about it negating Predator's bulletproof armour. I still think that the device would turn the entire alien into cheese instead, and it's going to be very difficult to hit Predator's gear (even for a trained soldier, hitting a tiny moving target at any sort of distance that's being held by something actively trying to kill you is a very tall order to do with even the slightest consistency), but this is one aspect I will give him.

Ranger, if we are not allowed to discuss cases in the server because it provides an unfair advantage, how the hell are you going to link feats that require server accessibility?

I did it for ease because the feats were uploaded directly to Discord instead of being Streamable or Gfycat links I could just repost. I'm sorry, I genuinely didn't think that it could be breaking the rules. Thank you for linking the scene...for those in the US, anyway.

It's reaction because she actively looks at the weapon's projectile before moving to block it, and this is the one Word Girl speed feat I pull out because as someone who hasn't watched the show this is the first one I found on literally the slightest bit of searching. And yes, there is some aimdodging in this tier, but Predator isn't anything more than "Regular athletic person" who is far more used to no-selling gunshots than running out of the way of them, based on the tier-setter RT. Can you argue that he sees the weapon isn't a standard firearm and tries to avoid it due to the unknown? Potentially. But this is a fast projectile against a slow character that would shrink him to a miniscule size on contact. It's just too strong for him.

As for projectile speed...the sense of scale for the shrink ray is against Word Girl herself as you see it fly out of sight in the span of a second, with it not just dematerializing because we see in the reaction feat that it doesn't disappear after a second has passed. Granted, this isn't the hill I'm going to die on because it's still a "You now can't do anything" projectile against an athletic human speed enemy, this is more me wanting to secure the fact that he'll have a hard time dodging it. Cheese ray speed...frankly also fairly inconsequential at this point, so I'll run with her speed varying from episode to episode.

...well, now I finally see why you were talking about Saitama. But as evidence for your defence, this feels...fairly weak. It's not him going "This turns anything not-living into cheese" or "I've tried everything, why can't I affect anything that isn't wood or metal" or anything like that. It's him saying, to partially counteract your argument that the ray only affects wood or metal, "I have tried to use the ray on this one specific kind of metal but it didn't work." I'm not expecting hard science from a kid's show, but it definitely feels more reasonable to say "This ray turns anything to cheese, with a strange exception to platinum" than "Since this ray can't affect platinum to cheese, it can only transform things that we explicitly see it hitting, like trees and buildings". An argument which can be turned back on him to make the ray useless on the predator since his gear is made of neither trees or buildings, but whatever, this can probably be fixed with a minor change.

So now we're in a weird spot. You've removed the shrink ray and force field. We can discount the scoops, since let's face it, without the ability to set up a trap or anything there's no way Predator's getting lured into them for long enough for it to activate and grab him. The foam cannon still one shots hypothetically, but due to its charge up time Predator can either close the distance and kill the person piloting it with a single shot or just turn invisible, giving them nothing to hit at until it's too close to use it. This makes the only viable item the cheese ray (assuming a minor change to make it only affect non-living items), which itself brings a different situation.

If Predator turns invisible due to the variety of weaponry they have and gets close before attacking, then they're not really going to get the chance to use it effectively, meaning they lose. In the sign up prompt, Two-Brains either gets time to review footage with Predator or time to prep the marines, which in this case would be allowing him to hand out gear before the fight starts. If it's the latter, then they could waste time with the other gear and regular guns, which makes it more accidental than not if they use the cheese ray and then score a lethal shot with a regular gun before they're all dead. If Two-Brains looks at the research footage instead (only you can really tell me if that's in character for him), then he should know that the Predator has bulletproof armour, and assuming he doesn't still try and use his other gear, he could just hand a marine his cheese ray, tell him to fire, and tell the others to focus fire on whatever turns into cheese. Honestly, I think this is more likely than not to make Predator realize they're up to something and turn invisible, before or after his torso armour's been turned to cheddar, and use their distraction to first take out the one with the unique weapon before taking out the others like he normally does. I mean, they do have a more likely chance of winning here? But I'm not sure if it's quite likely enough for the tier, given how he usually easily kills people like the marines.

There also comes the question of how worth it the character is, when a chunk of his sign up equipment has been removed, one is de facto useless due to activation speed and how it needs to be slowly moved, another is only slightly more useful due to having the same drawbacks but being ranged, and the remaining is only notably useful in making whatever part of Predator it hits not-bulletproof due to a minor change, with any attempts to hit weapons like the wrist blades and shoulder cannon being very big asks. And while you can try and throw in more gear...I mean, sign ups are over and there's no RT for the guy, I don't know how reasonable it is to keep throwing equipment at the guy until something sticks.